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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: to whom will God show mercy?
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
The illustration here would be that we are all born on a ship that was headed to hell, and God offered a way for us to get out of the ship and be taken to heaven instead, but we have to accept his hand to be pulled out of the ship. Right? But compare that to an even more relevant illustration: We're poor, disabled people that live in the poorest community of a country, in a desolate basin that is about to be hit by one of the worst storms of the century. God is urging us to evacuate, even providing busses, helicopters, etc. to evacuate us. But if we choose to stay, God lets us so as to not override our free will, and we are then destroyed by the storm (or sent to hell, etc.).
These are dramatic examples. Dramatic examples, however, are not usually the way life works.
Here's another example:
Because of the hurricane in New Orleans, Americans are called on to help out in some way. Some help, some do not. People give money, volunteer time and skill, pray, etc. Others do nothing. People are free to help or not help as they choose. If no one helps, of course, the results are worse than catastrophic. If everyone helps then conditions are eased relatively quickly.
But what of the results for any given individual? The one who helps may have a slightly better feeling than one who does not. It is no big deal. But what if this reflects the entire pattern of their lives?
There is nothing especially catastrophic here, at least not at first sight. But what is emptier than a self-centered life?
Jesus came to get people to help. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
The illustration here would be that we are all born on a ship that was headed to hell, and God offered a way for us to get out of the ship and be taken to heaven instead, but we have to accept his hand to be pulled out of the ship. Right? But compare that to an even more relevant illustration: We're poor, disabled people that live in the poorest community of a country, in a desolate basin that is about to be hit by one of the worst storms of the century. God is urging us to evacuate, even providing busses, helicopters, etc. to evacuate us. But if we choose to stay, God lets us so as to not override our free will, and we are then destroyed by the storm (or sent to hell, etc.).
These are dramatic examples. Dramatic examples, however, are not usually the way life works.
True, Freddy, I definitely agree. Although, this is usually the terminology used to describe atonement and salvation, and why it is necessary to accept Jesus. The examples I chose were simply meant to illustrate a different way of looking at this same idea, in its dramaticism, and see it in a different light.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
The examples I chose were simply meant to illustrate a different way of looking at this same idea, in its dramaticism, and see it in a different light.
Yes, and I thought they were good examples.
My example was meant to take away the impending hurricane, or the impending ship headed for hell.
I don't think that people will agree as to whether or not the spiritual hurricane ever happened. Spiritual things are infinitely more subtle and malleable - and yet they are no less real.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Oh no, Freddy.
I think our agreement on this last post has sufficiently killed this thread. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Oh no, Freddy.
I think our agreement on this last post has sufficiently killed this thread.
I don't know. I think it was my claim that there is no hurricane. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Actually, I think that the real problem here is that it is hard for us to realize that sin really is its own punishment. Therefore we have always needed to think of something happening that will punish us for our sins.
As long as we persist in thinking of sin as something enjoyable that God for some reason disapproves of, I can't see us getting anywhere. Because it just doesn't work to have God meting out punishment forever. Paul has made that clear, and I accept his argument.
To my mind, all that the biblical statements about divine punishment mean is that in the long run sin isn't as much fun as it seems.
Therefore mercy is about getting people to stop sinning, without forcing them. This is the only way to prevent the sorrow that is inherent in sin.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Dang it, Freddy.
I agree with this, too! How are we going to resurrect this thread (at least until Muddy gets back) if we can't find things to disagree about?
I like the idea of sin being punishment unto itself--and likening the talk of eternal flames and/or punishment to a simple(?) eternal unhappiness with what we have... the curse of sin... which manifests itself in the suffering of lack of what we truly could have, that being joy in its purest form.
Mmmmm... now that's a convoluted sentence.
-Digory
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I've just flipped through the last few posts of this thread - haven't been following it for a while (limited time and some interesting stuff in Kerygmania kept me away.) So this rejoin may just show my ignorance of what has gone before and my relative idleness in not reading through a hundred or so posts.
For Freddy or quirkey, in particular. Isn't it the point of the Dives and Lazarus story that sin is not its own punishment in this life? Hardening your heart turns you into a bastard, a piece at a time, and your behaviour, or your indifference in Dives' case, hurts other people in this life a bloody sight more than it hurts you. To quote the Bible, or, if you like, Bono from the brilliant "One Tree Hill" on "The Joshua Tree". "You know their blood still cries out from the ground". Sin spills blood all over the place. Not just our own. Sometimes not even our own.
Our sin can be hell in this life for other people - and vice versa. Maybe I've missed that point in your dialogue - if so, this old guy will get back to his breakfast Cheerios with a "sorry" all round. Sometimes the Sigs round here crease me up - there's the wonderful one with Gort quote - something like
"Some people round here wouldn't recognise a Saint if he pissed in your Cheerios".
Certainly not claiming to be a saint, and I don't want to piss in your Cheerios. "There's a lot in your posts I like", said he, apologetically, tossing a spanner into the works - maybe?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
For Freddy or quirkey, in particular. Isn't it the point of the Dives and Lazarus story that sin is not its own punishment in this life? Hardening your heart turns you into a bastard, a piece at a time, and your behaviour, or your indifference in Dives' case, hurts other people in this life a bloody sight more than it hurts you.
Quirkey?
Yes, I completely agree that this is the point of the Dives and Lazarus story. In fact many stories explicitly state this. The Bible is very clear that sin hurts others and that we get punished for it.
My point is that this is just the way the Bible puts it, largely because this is the way that things work in this world. This is a way of putting it that everyone can understand.
The problem is that when you think about this long and hard, as we have been doing on this thread, it becomes less and less appealing to have God punish some people, show mercy on others, and sentence people to eternal torment for temporal sins.
I think that this stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of how the system works.
The way I see it is that it is true that in the short run our sins often hurt others more than they hurt us, and that so-called "sinful" things are in fact often quite enjoyable. But that is only in the short run. Of course, the "short run" can last pretty long. Ill-gotten gains, and "sinful" behavior, can be enjoyed for years.
But the Bible isn't really about the short run. In the long run, whatever is not consistent with God's life and love is simply not joyful. They lose their thrill and luster. This is really true in both the short and the long run, it simply becomes more obvious over time.
My point is that this loss of joy is what so-called "hellfire" is all about. The Lazarus and Dives story is really about how in the long run Dives behavior led to a loss of joy, whereas Lazarus' life was consistent with eternal happiness, pictured as his ending up in the bosom of Abraham.
To my mind, this changes everything that we typically think about sin, and, I think, makes the whole system more palatable.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gauk
Shipmate
# 1125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Dang it, Freddy.
I agree with this, too! How are we going to resurrect this thread (at least until Muddy gets back) if we can't find things to disagree about?
I'm having the same problem ...
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Now the Sirens have a still more fatal weapon than their song, namely their silence ... it is conceivable that someone might possibly have escaped from their singing; but from their silence certainly never.
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
This is a slight digression though it fits perfectly with my opinions about Judaism and Christianity. The parable of Dives and Lazarus is usually taken as the proof text by those who believe that damnation is eternal that nothing can be done to remedy the situation after death. But I don't believe that the parable has anything to do with the afterlife. It is only found in Luke's gospel. Much of Luke comes from the Pauline tradition.
Paul as the self-styled Apostle to the Gentiles was given short shrift by the Jewish congregations of the diaspora. Along with abolishing the law for Gentiles he introduced the seeds of Replacement Theology. The characters in Dives and Lazarus are in fact identifiable, and it turns out to be a very subtle form of Replacement Theology. For a full explanation see here .
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The story of Dives and Lazarus IS a parable. I don't know where your quoted source gets tis idea that people go mad about liberal theology if it is described as such!
I have always thought of it as a parable.
In fact, like some of Jesus' stories, they are not even original. It seems that Jesus took well known fables (for want of a better word) and used them in his teaching, altering the ending so that people would be shocked into hearing a new spiritual truth.
The original version of this folk tale would have had the rich man in Paradise and Dives in Torment because of the commonly held view that wealth was because God was favouring you and poverty was due to sinfulness or curse.
There is no way that Jesus ever intended this parable (which does speak about the truth of the uncrossable 'divide') to betaken as a literal event - neither did his hearers who would have recognised the basic story, and neither do we.
I have never met another evangelical who believed this story to be historical or literal fact.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Oh Mucky Amphibian - So do we have a source for the original folk tale? And Dives means 'rich' in Latin. The story is certainly parabolic, but plenty of people believe it to be literal fact, I'm sure we could rustle up an Evangelical somewhere who does: those who oppose soul sleep interpret it to mean that the dead are whisked immediately up to heaven or down hell. A typically closed interpretation of course, as it fits in perfectly well with soul sleep.
If it is literal or not, it could indicate that now is the only day of salvation as its view of human nature seems to be that if one does not repent of stepping over starving lepers in this life on the basis of the Old Testament then nothing could induce one to in this or the next.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The original version of this folk tale would have had the rich man in Paradise and Dives in Torment ...
Oh yes, no-one's ever heard of a folk tale in which the poor triumph over the rich. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
those who oppose soul sleep interpret it to mean that the dead are whisked immediately up to heaven or down hell.
Yes, I would interpret it that way. Jesus seemed happy to give the impression that people meet their fate as soon as they die. Of course even if there is "soul sleep" it would seem the same since there is unlikely to be a sensation of intervening time. So it makes no real difference.
But I certainly agree that it is a parable.
With parables, though, the real message is sometimes hard to uncover. This one seems to show God's punishment of the sinner, but I don't think that this is actually how it works.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The original version of this folk tale would have had the rich man in Paradise and Dives in Torment ...
Oh yes, no-one's ever heard of a folk tale in which the poor triumph over the rich.
I'm wondering the same thing. Is there really any evidence of similar stories in which the rich man ends up in Paradise?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
<Tangent>
How about this old guy? Reckon its folksy enough. Mind you he had a problem or two along the way to his riches. Bet those "miserable comforters" died poor and went to hell. Only fitting. Death's too good for the likes of them ....
Yeah, I know it's a bit of a "stretch".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The story of Dives and Lazarus IS a parable.
<snip>
I have always thought of it as a parable.
You know I love you, Muddy. But let me just point out that this is probably the problem with how all of us think about our beliefs.
I have always thought it to be so,
THEREFORE
It is necessarily true.
But on the other hand, this article is great for demonstrating how to set up a magnificent strawman and then wind up and beat it down. In my opinion, of course.
-Digory
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
But on the other hand, this article is great for demonstrating how to set up a magnificent strawman and then wind up and beat it down. In my opinion, of course.
Good point, Digory!
Similarly, in Paul's OP he seems to me to set up quite the strawman with his question:
quote:
When the door is closing and we make our last representations to God, what will invoke His mercy?
The imagery and language are a setup for an argument in which God becomes the obvious bad-cop.
Are we agreed by now that this is not the reality? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I dont think we need to invoke God's mercy. It comes to us by Grace. "Invoke" suggests that he needs to be persuaded by us. Acceptance is not a "doing" in the same way that "invoking" is. Incidentally, I think this is also Orthodox and Catholic. The real high priest at the Mass is not the visible priest. He's just "lending a hand".
I'm not persuaded by the argument that the Dives parable says nothing about the afterlife, but I agree that it is dangerous to read too much into it. PaulTh's typology argument is also, more or less, what my Peake commentary says. The notion that, apart from Grace, we "hellify" ourselves (if I may invent a word) looks pretty sound to me. What subsequently happens is, in the last resort, something we're just going to have to wait to find out.
(professorkirke - "Quirkie" should have read "kirkie" in my previous post. Either way it was a bit rude. My apologies.)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I wanted to start another thread on the Harrowing of Hell, but what I want to say is appropriate to this subject. On this and other threads we.ve discussed how God can allow anyone to suffer eternal damnation. My point is that He can't, but what do dedicated Christians make of this:
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison". (I Peter 3.18-19)
To me this might suggest that the resurrection is a spiritual rather than physical phenomenon, but that provcative though isn't what I'm discussing. The Harrowing of Hell in which Jesus released the spirits from the underworld was a widely held doctrine in the first century. The apocryphal "Gospel of Nicedemus" is composed of the "Acts of Pilate" (chapters 1-17) and "The Descent into Hell" (chapters 17-27). Scholars usyually reckon that the first part dates from about 400AD, but that the second part is much older, coming from around 200AD. While it has no Scriptural value, it reflects a view held in the church at the time which supports I Peter.
This quote is from "Universalism, The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundered Years" written by J.W. Hanson in 1899.
quote:
About a century after the death of John appeared the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus, valuable as setting forth current eschatology. It describes the effect of Christ's preaching in Hades: "When Jesus arrived in Hades, the gates burst open, and taking Adam by the hand Jesus said, "Come all with me, as many as have died through the tree which he touched, for behold I raise you all up through the tree of the cross.'"
This is merely an elaboration of I Corinthians 15.22, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive".
Now I know that many here don't subscribe to universal reconciliation as I do, but can anyone say that its either unscriptural or out of line with the early church when it is supported by I Peter, I Corinthians and early church writings. If the fate of the dead is sealed, what was the Harrowing of Hell about?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Gauk
Shipmate
# 1125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
... what was the Harrowing of Hell about?
I don't think there were any witnesses.
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Now the Sirens have a still more fatal weapon than their song, namely their silence ... it is conceivable that someone might possibly have escaped from their singing; but from their silence certainly never.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
If the fate of the dead is sealed, what was the Harrowing of Hell about?
It is simple.
People who died after Adam were initially quite happy. But as the spiritual state of people on earth deteriorated over the centuries, those who were coming into the spiritual world from earth brought with them their evils. Over time this made the situation in that world worse and worse. By the time of Christ they were suffering, as if in hell.
At His resurrection Christ released them, and reordered the spiritual world so that they could not be enslaved again.
It's like "Lord of the Rings."
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
If I recall correctly, the tradition (Scripture doesn't tell us much here) is that all the Old Testament era people, good or bad, believers or not, were in "hell," or more accurately "Sheol." In other words, it was a kind of waiting room, a kind of prison, even, but not the full-fledged "sinners on a barbecue" image we get from the word today. Read up on Sheol and you'll see what I mean.
Some of those people were Paradise bound on account of their faith. But according to this tradition, they could not actually enter Paradise until Christ himself opened the doors through his death on the cross.
That, then, would be what the Harrowing of Hell was about--a replaying of the Exodus from slavery in Egypt, but on a cosmic scale. Christ stands before hell, the gates burst asunder, and Christ leads his newly freed people in triumph out of hell and into Paradise. And Adam and Eve traditionally go first as the representatives of the whole fallen human race which Christ has now redeemed.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
Dearest PaulTH-
Your question is a puzzling one! More important than what various churches say or teach seems to be what the Bible says.(IMHO)
After reveiwing John 3:16 it seems quite simple.
Yet after reading Matt 7:21, maybe not...
Perhaps Pr. 16:4 says all that we need to know about it.
Romans says that narrow is the way, many will not be "able" and that few are "chosen".
It may well be that it is'nt worth worrying about to begin with.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What I make of this: I Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison - Paul, is - 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Jesus preached to the demons in tartaroo during the Flood. He didn't preach to any one while He was in oblivion for three nights and three days.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
That, then, would be what the Harrowing of Hell was about--a replaying of the Exodus from slavery in Egypt, but on a cosmic scale. Christ stands before hell, the gates burst asunder, and Christ leads his newly freed people in triumph out of hell and into Paradise. And Adam and Eve traditionally go first as the representatives of the whole fallen human race which Christ has now redeemed.
I agree with that, but don't the sinners who died after Christ get the same benefit of his universal mercy as Adam and Eve?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Good question PaulTH.
The logical answer appears to be "Only if they haven't had the opportunity to avoid this by taking Route 1".
There is even more interesting logic here (apart from the "obvious" conclusion that evangelism should be forbidden, for if unsuccessful, the hearer is condemned to eternal punishment, whereas if they don't hear, here comes the cavalry when all seems lost....).
Suppose some of the spirits in prison decide thisaway. "No, we like it here. Its our choice and, even if painful and confusing now, we arent leaving just 'cos You say so! There is such a thing as free will you know". That remind you of anybody?
OK, that is just a bit of fun really; but you can push logic too far in this area.
[ 11. September 2005, 20:58: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(professorkirke - "Quirkie" should have read "kirkie" in my previous post. Either way it was a bit rude. My apologies.)
No need. I could never be offended by you, "Barnie."
-Digory (or Kirkie, eh?)
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I agree with that, but don't the sinners who died after Christ get the same benefit of his universal mercy as Adam and Eve?
I've thought about a similar question for a few years, Paul. It goes right along with yours.
If people like Adam and Eve and Abraham will end up in heaven, it means that they made it there without "accepting Jesus" in this life. This, to me, says it is possible to end up in heaven this way--that there are ways of being saved by Christ that do not involve traditional understandings of salvation.
Saying that it was different then, before Jesus, isn't enough for me. If it's possible at any time to receive salvation without ever mentioning the name of Christ, then it's possible at all times. IMO.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Bonaventura
Wise Drunkard
# 1066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
If people like Adam and Eve and Abraham will end up in heaven, it means that they made it there without "accepting Jesus" in this life. This, to me, says it is possible to end up in heaven this way--that there are ways of being saved by Christ that do not involve traditional understandings of salvation.
Saying that it was different then, before Jesus, isn't enough for me. If it's possible at any time to receive salvation without ever mentioning the name of Christ, then it's possible at all times. IMO.
It depends entirely on what you put into the term 'accepting Jesus', whether it is possible to do so unconsciously.
Simone Weil thought that a person running away from the "official Christ" might be running straight towards Christ himself.
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“I think you are all mistaken in your theological beliefs. The God or Gods of Christianity are not there, whether you call them Father, Son and Holy Spirit or Aunt, Uncle and Holy Cow.” -El Greco
Posts: 473 | From: Et in Arcadia requiesco | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonaventura:
It depends entirely on what you put into the term 'accepting Jesus', whether it is possible to do so unconsciously.
Yes, yes. This is exactly my point. If it is possible to do unconsciously, then you open up salvation to a much wider audience, and to far less restrictions.
-Digory
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
And that raises another paradox or two. If Christ may be accepted "unconsciously" then maybe he can be rejected "unconsciously" whether here or in Hell (and is it possible to be "unconscious" in Hell in the sense that Bonaventura and, I think professorkirke meant it)
(I should have been a Jesuit. Maybe protestants could do with a Jesuitical order? Hmmn .....).
[ 12. September 2005, 05:15: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(I should have been a Jesuit. Maybe protestants could do with a Jesuitical order? Hmmn .....).
What do you think Calvinists are?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(I should have been a Jesuit. Maybe protestants could do with a Jesuitical order? Hmmn .....).
What do you think Calvinists are?
If Calvinists are the intellectual "devils advocate" defenders of protestantism we're in even more trouble than I think we are. Please don't tell me that in order to be a Jesuitical protestant I would also have to become a Calvinist. Some things are too hard for any man to hear ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If Calvinists are the intellectual "devils advocate" defenders of protestantism
Oh is THAT what you meant by "Jesuitical". Never mind.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
If people like Adam and Eve and Abraham will end up in heaven, it means that they made it there without "accepting Jesus" in this life. This, to me, says it is possible to end up in heaven this way--that there are ways of being saved by Christ that do not involve traditional understandings of salvation.
That's right.
Jesus is "the Way the Truth and the Life" (John 14.6) He came into the world "to bear witness to the truth" (John 1.37). He then said, "Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice" (ibid.).
The important things is to be "of the truth" so that you can hear Jesus' voice - whether in this life or the next. Being "of the truth" means loving God and the neighbor, which is the truth that Jesus came to bear witness to.
Jesus came because people had ceased to love God and the neighbor. He came to restore this love by bringing the light of truth. The point is to take advantage of the human capacity to assimilate information that will change behavior and therefore the will.
In broad terms, the only thing that will change humanity is Jesus. So He said "No one comes to the Father except by Me." But in more particular terms, salvation lies with the individual who is "of the truth," that is, whose life and will is consistent with what Jesus is all about.
Presumably, Adam and Eve, and many good people since the beginning, meet those qualifications.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But Adam and Eve WEREN'T good and neither is any one else conceived by man. "No not one".
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonaventura:
Simone Weil thought that a person running away from the "official Christ" might be running straight towards Christ himself.
Wise lady! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
Posted by Mudfrog
I have never met another evangelical who believed this story to be historical or literal fact.
Suprised that you said this as most evagelical Christian lierature that I have read has stressed that is not a parable
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
And that raises another paradox or two. If Christ may be accepted "unconsciously" then maybe he can be rejected "unconsciously" whether here or in Hell (and is it possible to be "unconscious" in Hell in the sense that Bonaventura and, I think professorkirke meant it)
Good point, Ol' Barny. Always thinking.
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If Calvinists are the intellectual "devils advocate" defenders of protestantism
Oh is THAT what you meant by "Jesuitical". Never mind.
Only in this context, MT, only in this context!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
Posted by Mudfrog
I have never met another evangelical who believed this story to be historical or literal fact.
Suprised that you said this as most evagelical Christian lierature that I have read has stressed that is not a parable
I turned immediately to my nearest commentary - published by IVP with contributions from people like JI Packer.
"The Rich man and Lazarus.
Egyptian and Jewish sources have furnished stories similar to this one in describing the reversed fates of rich and poor men in the next world. The parable implies that......"
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Okay, come on people.
Muddy, I'm totally with you on this one. It has almost always been viewed as a parable by the majority of Christian thought. There's not much I'll stick my neck out for these days, but this one seems clear to me. Besides, it's almost beside the point and it's definitely cluttering the real issue of the OP. <end minor rant>
-Digory
[ 12. September 2005, 20:51: Message edited by: professorkirke ]
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Wait, what WAS the OP? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Wait, what WAS the OP?
Ooh!Ooh! I know!
"To whom will God show mercy?"
Answer:
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD..."
Acts 2 v 21, quoting Joel 2.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
"The Rich man and Lazarus.
Egyptian and Jewish sources have furnished stories similar to this one in describing the reversed fates of rich and poor men in the next world. The parable implies that......"
I'd like to hear the end of that. I'm quite sure that JI Packer believes that the parable implies that, at the Final Judgement, God will judge once for eternity and then will show now mercy after that time. That brings us back to the OP. PaulTH asks, "to whom will God show mercy" and the JI Packer answer is "to those who accepted that mercy in this life, prior to death."
After death, there is no more mercy; there is judgment only, according to works and according to faith. Mercy was shown in this life by making available the message of God in the form of Jesus the Son taking on himself the punishment deserved by everyone who incurs God's anger and wrath. The JI Packer position is that God's anger and wrath are not arbitrary and capricious; they are directed at sinners who reject the sacrifice of Christ in remission for their sins.
Barrea perhaps did not speak exactly. I don't think he meant that "evangelicals" or fundamentalists insist that the parable in Luke is an actual historical event that happened in the past or an exact event that will take place in the future. But it is certainly presented as an indication that:
1. At some point, God's mercy ends and is replaced by judgment. No more mercy after that; hope is gone and the damned are doomed to suffer punishment eternally in a painful state of some kind.
2. For some, the judgment of God will be a wrath, anger, and punishment severe beyond human comprehension because God's insistence on sinlessness is beyond comprehension and his anger and wrath for sinfulness is beyond comprehension as well.
You can google JI Packer and get the idea. If you read Evangelical Affirmations, you will see that Packer took on John Stott when Stott argued that annihilationism is the "eternal punishment" that will be received after judgment. Packer argues that the punishment is literally unending, and therefore (my words now) "with mercy no longer available, mercy having been offerred for a limited time only and via one mechanism only."
I could be hearing him through my old Pentecostal ears, but I don't think so.
[ 12. September 2005, 21:17: Message edited by: JimmyT ]
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The Rich man and Lazarus.
Egyptian and Jewish sources have furnished stories similar to this one in describing the reversed fates of rich and poor men in the next world. The parable implies that the rich man did scarcely anything to alleviate the beggar's distress. When the latter died, he found a place of honour beside Abraham, the father of the Jewish race and the friend of God. The rich man foundhimself in Hades in torment and agony. He called upon Abraham as 'father' for mercy, but the reply of Abraham, though it called him 'son', offered no hope. Thus far the story follows traditional lines, but now there is a fresh element. Could the rich man's brothers, presumably rich and careless themselves, be warned before they reached Hades? the reply was that the teaching they possessed in the OT should be enough. Not even the miracle of somebody returning from the dead to warn tme would have any effect on those who had shut their ears to te voice of God in the Scriptures. Failure to practice the love and mercy taught in the OT will lead to loss in the next life.
It is a moot point whether the parable is intended to give literal information about the next world, and, if so, whether it refers to an intermediate state before the final judgment or to a lasting state. But, although the language (e.g Abraham's bosom) is surely symbolical, it speaks of real destinies for men.
The imagery expresses with all clarity the irreversibility of God's verdict upon men.
IH Marshall
[ 12. September 2005, 21:33: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Wait, what WAS the OP?
Ooh!Ooh! I know!
"To whom will God show mercy?"
Answer:
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD..."
Acts 2 v 21, quoting Joel 2.
Perhaps even after death?
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Forgive me, JimmyT, who cares what Packer thinks?
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