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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: to whom will God show mercy?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Forgive me, JimmyT, who cares what Packer thinks?
Presumable the same people who care what I or you, Mousethief, think. We all deserve a fair hearing and all have an opinion - even if we fundamentally disagree.
JI Packer may not be your type of theologian, but you cannot dismiss his thoughts and simply not care what he thinks.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Forgive me, JimmyT, who cares what Packer thinks?
Who cares what Kallistos Ware thinks? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Yes, Mousethief, Mudfrog brought up Packer quoting that the story is "just a parable" and not a literal story. But I wanted to point out that Packer believes that the point of the story is that mercy goes up to judgment and no further.
No one would care that Packer thinks this, except that Packer stands for the tens of millions of people, some of whom are on The Ship, who think that the lesson to be learned from that parable and from all the imagery of "harvest time" that there will come a point when it is "too late" to be saved from eternal, conscious punishment. It is a serious debate in the very wide evangelical movement. While most of the evangelical Protestant spectrum agrees that the Final Judgment is just that, the "softer" ones argue for annihilation of the damned so that they are eternally punished by not being granted eternal life, but they are not consciously punished or tormented. The "harder" ones say that unfortunately the Bible makes clear, especially in this parable, that the punishment will be experienced eternally in a tormenting fashion.
You know it still irks me when people say this is a "cartoon version" of Hell and "no one really believes it." The Assemblies of God is 50 million strong world wide. Check their "Fundamental Truths" here and you will see:
quote:
WE BELIEVE...A Final Judgment Will Take Place for those who have rejected Christ. They will be judged for their sin and consigned to eternal punishment in a punishing lake of fire.
If you click on the link for that item, you get actual fire and brimstone, which again people say is no longer widely preached.
quote:
There will be a final judgment in which the wicked dead will be raised and judged according to their works. Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, together with the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, will be consigned to the everlasting punishment in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
The people who write these things have PhD's and they will tell you full well that they know the difference between a parable, a prophecy, and an historical event. But their clear interpretation of the object lesson to be found in the New Testament is that mercy goes up to the Final Judgment and ends there. No more mercy later. Period. And Hell will not be empty, it will be quite full containing "all who have rejected Christ." This means specifically:
quote:
Man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Son of God.
Conditions to Salvation
Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God, according to the hope of eternal life.
Note: salvation is conditional. It is not guaranteed.
So it irks me as well that people say the OP is just a straw man. Not if you count 50 million in the Assemblies of God and believe me, they are not alone.
It seems to me that the human writers of the Bible really thought the end of the world was coming in their literal lifetime or very, very soon afterward and that there would be anger, wrath, judgement and unending conscious torment of the damned from what I read. I don't see how you can read their intent any other way. You might argue whether Jesus really said all those things or whether they were put in his mouth by Bible writers (I think some of that happened), and you might say that God didn't really dictate that to the writers and their human beliefs got in the way (I believe that also). But I don't see how you can say that the Bible writers were really trying to say that Hell will be empty because everyone will be saved and restored through mercy, or that they will have more chances at salvation after the "Final" judgment.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I never said that Packer wrote the quote I gave.
I said he was merely one of the contributors to a commentary I quoted, to show that it was an evangelical commentary.
I actually put the name of the author (I Marshall)at the bottom of the full quote which I presume you read.
The Packer stuff is therefore irrelevant.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Actually, I think I rather agree with Mudfrog on this one (shock, horror). Whilst I totally agree with JimmyT that a substantial sector (though not a majority) of ConEvo thought is that eternal punishment (that is, punishment which continues for ever) is the fate of those who reject (whatever that means) Christ in this life, this specific parable is rarely used to support that position, probably for two reasons.
Firstly, if you accept the parable as prophecy, you then have to deal with the associated suggestion that a persons salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone, and secondly, the language used is just too problematic. There is no mention of God, nor of heaven as such. It is as if Jesus is deliberately trying to distance himself from a literal interpretation by using metaphor.
The whole thing sounds like the retelling, with added touches, of an existing religious story already well known to his listeners. Every time I have heard this passage expounded by evangelical preachers, the emphasis has been on verses 30-31 quote:
30" ... if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
The point of such an exposition is thus that even the threat of the direst consequences is not enough to make people behave in a way that is acceptable to God. Thus, only the supernatural renewing power of the Holy Spirit is able to change our selfish nature. We cannot do it in our own strength, not even to escape so terrible a fate as described.
[ 13. September 2005, 09:21: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I think JimmyT makes the excellent point that it isn't just a few hotheads who push this eternal punishment line but millions of Christians who follow the teachings of those like Packer. In fact though there have been notable universalists, many in the early centuries of Christianity, eternal punishment is and always has been mainstream Christianity among Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox. This is why I cannot be an orthodox Christian.
Among the religions of the world, only Islam, as far as I am aware, can compete with Christianity in nastiness. At some points in its history, some voices within Judaism such as the writers of the apocryphal book of Enoch from which Christianity derives much of its theology, believed in eternal punishment, but it isn't part of mainstream Judaism. The Eastern religions have no such doctrines. But the desire to save people from this fate is what makes Christianity and Islam so brutal. Conversion by threat, inqisition or the sword are the sordid facts of European history.
I, for one find it all nauseating. I believe in the oneness of creation and in a merciful God who hates nothing He has made. That can be found in unorthodox interpretations of Christianity or in other philosophies, but the Church doesn't answer those needs.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Gauk
Shipmate
# 1125
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Posted
There is a hymn which goes:
quote:
"Oh God we love Thee, not because
We hope for Heaven thereby."
Whenever I hear it, I think, "you're not fooling anyone".
"If it's anything about a cake, Sir, I don't know anything about a cake, and besides, it was only a small one!" - Bunter
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Now the Sirens have a still more fatal weapon than their song, namely their silence ... it is conceivable that someone might possibly have escaped from their singing; but from their silence certainly never.
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
JI Packer may not be your type of theologian, but you cannot dismiss his thoughts and simply not care what he thinks.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Packer stuff is therefore irrelevant.
Oh, Muddy. You make it so easy!
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
OP: To whom will God show mercy?
A: I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:15
-Digory
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Firstly, if you accept the parable as prophecy, you then have to deal with the associated suggestion that a persons salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone
That seems easy: you say "a person's salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone" with a straight face and you're done.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
secondly, the language used is just too problematic. There is no mention of God, nor of heaven as such. It is as if Jesus is deliberately trying to distance himself from a literal interpretation by using metaphor.
What problem? "The bosom of Abraham isn't good enough to give you a clear picture of 'the place where good people go after they die'?"
What distance? Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." So his words are God's word, right? And his words are that after you're dead, you're screwed when it comes to mercy. The harvest has happened. The fruit has been collected. The trees with no fruit are cursed, never to bear fruit again. It's perfectly in keeping with other things he said from the pen of gospel writers.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
The whole thing sounds like the retelling, with added touches, of an existing religious story already well known to his listeners.
Not to me. The whole thing sounds to me like a confirmation of the obejct lesson of an existing religious story.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
30" ... if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
The point of such an exposition is thus that even the threat of the direst consequences is not enough to make people behave in a way that is acceptable to God.
Verse 31 does not say, "they will not repent no matter how dire the consequences." It says, "they will not repent, no matter how credible the messanger."
The crystal clear message to me is that the gospel writer, Luke, believes that eternal torment is the fate of those who do not live a life of good works. If they have faith and are good Jews or good Christians, but they are selfish, their "faith" is not going to get them into Heaven. Talk is cheap and so is faith. Anyone can say, "I believe whatever I'm supposed to believe. May I please have eternal life even though I couldn't give a rip about my fellow man?" The gospel writer says that these people will have an eternal fate no different from people who have no faith at all, because their faith has not made them better people. Jesus foretold that they would still not listen to him even though he was going to rise from the dead to prove that this message is straight from the mouth of God in human flesh.
Ironically, it is also the clearest indication to Fundamentalists that it doesn't matter for beans if you are Islamic, Christian, Jewish, secular humanist, Pagan, Quaker, or card carrying member of the Church of Satan. So long as you are kind and generous, you are in good shape. If you are unkind and not generous or charitable, it doesn't matter if you believe in the blood of Jesus or flagellate yourself or go to confession and eat a properly consecrated host. You will go to eternal torment and there will be a impassable gulf between you and all the kind, comparing, compassionate, and generous people. You will have squandered your opportunity forever.
I've never heard any Christian of any stripe make that argument, and I think it's too bad. Yeah yeah it conflicts with Paul and Luther but this supposedly came from Jesus did it not?
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Damn. "Kind and caring" not "kind and comparing."
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by JimmyT:
quote:
I've never heard any Christian of any stripe make that argument, and I think it's too bad. Yeah yeah it conflicts with Paul and Luther but this supposedly came from Jesus did it not?
Jimmy, I must give you 100% for that one. Also apart from good works being necessary, it also says that there is nothing essential to salvation which can't be found in Moses and the prophets. Like Mark 12.28-34, Jesus is telling people to be good Jews not that they need a new religion.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Originally posted by JimmyT:
quote:
I've never heard any Christian of any stripe make that argument, and I think it's too bad. Yeah yeah it conflicts with Paul and Luther but this supposedly came from Jesus did it not?
Jimmy, I must give you 100% for that one. Also apart from good works being necessary, it also says that there is nothing essential to salvation which can't be found in Moses and the prophets. Like Mark 12.28-34, Jesus is telling people to be good Jews not that they need a new religion.
I think I agree. It seems to me that the Gospel is for the Jews first - ie the Messiah has come to complete the revelation; and then the Gentiles are invited to become part of this messianic judaism. It seems to be that the early church messed up in the centuries after the apostles died by taking on too much Imperial imagery, too much Greek philosophy, taking too much notice of Augustine, and rejecting the Jewish nature of the Gospel.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
JimmyT quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Firstly, if you accept the parable as prophecy, you then have to deal with the associated suggestion that a persons salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone
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That seems easy: you say "a person's salvation can be affected by his works in this life, rather than being dependant on faith alone" with a straight face and you're done.
Yes, but the point I am making is that, IME, Evangelicals are unhappy with the idea that we can contibute to our salvation by good works, and so steer clear of such an interpretation. YMMV of course.
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
secondly, the language used is just too problematic. There is no mention of God, nor of heaven as such. It is as if Jesus is deliberately trying to distance himself from a literal interpretation by using metaphor.
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What problem? "The bosom of Abraham isn't good enough to give you a clear picture of 'the place where good people go after they die'?"
If the verse is indeed prophetic, as you suggest Evangelicals believe, then why use this unique turn of phrase? Why not use the terms that He normally uses when speaking of eschatology?
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
The whole thing sounds like the retelling, with added touches, of an existing religious story already well known to his listeners.
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Not to me. The whole thing sounds to me like a confirmation of the obejct lesson of an existing religious story.
Fair enough. I don't read it so, for the reasons I have outlined, but the evangelical circles in which I have moved are not the same as yours, and I believe that my reading of it is quite common. Once again, YMMV.
quote:
Verse 31 does not say, "they will not repent no matter how dire the consequences." It says, "they will not repent, no matter how credible the messanger."
I think that both are implied.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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