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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: New blasts in London
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
[QUOTE] I remember President Bush after September 11 declaring "this was an act of war" and I also wonder whether there will soon be soldiers in force in London. Not necessarily in an alarmist way but I imagine the police force has a limited capacity and they are fairly stretched at the moment - and pessimistic or not I truly don't know - I can't see this wave of violence ending soon.
I hope I am wrong.
Wrong, I'm afraid, on the question of the military. They are already here. I was told by a policeman friend last evening that the military are helping out at 'static' places such as embassies in order to release police to do terrorist stuff.
I have no special opinion about this single fact. I do have opinions about armed police / military / anti-terrorst squad officers: we do not need them in the general way of things but I fancy we will get them as a permanent fact before too long. But it may not be by popular consent, rather by stealth.
Blessinsg!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
The gentle reminder is that a secular, multi-cultural state is an absurd ideology - an invention of the human mind - completely out of sync with nature and doomed to an ugly violent end.
Just run that one past again. Are you seriously advocating a theistic, monocultural state as the only natural organisation of society?
He was making a joke.
Wasn't he? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Perhaps this reads differently in the UK, but I think in the US if the police made an official statement of apology it would sound like an admission of guilt. You only apologize when you did something wrong.
Yes, that does read differently here. If I was standing on a crowded tube train, say, and the motion of the train caused me to step on someones toe while trying to maintain balance I'd say "sorry" - and there's a good chance the bloke who had his toes trod on would say "sorry" to me. It doesn't, in everyday use at least, carry any implication of guilt (which would imply some sort of intention or failure to take reaonable precautions) or even necessarily fault. Perhaps in a formal statement saying "sorry" would carry more weight in regards to admitting fault than a spur of the moment "sorry". But, to me, the police saying "sorry, we made a mistake" is an admission of fault and human fallibility, not guilt.
That's true in the US too, Alan, you'd say, "sorry" for something you did that caused pain to someone else. What Ruth is talking about is corporate or official groups who face liability for apologizing sometimes. Like the police who've killed an innocent person, or hospitals where someone had the wrong leg amputated.
Though interestingly, studies show that apologies tend to curtail lawsuits. Mostly what people want when they file suit is some godd*&^ recognition that the injuring party did something wrong and recognizes it.
Laura
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
This on the BBC website:
Sir Ian told Sky News: "This is a tragedy. The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."
It sounds like an apology and I'm thankful. But I do agree that apologies may mess-up court cases and justice cannot be seen to be done because of previously admitted guilt etc.
Oh, Lord, bring peace with justice. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Blessings!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
The gentle reminder is that a secular, multi-cultural state is an absurd ideology - an invention of the human mind - completely out of sync with nature and doomed to an ugly violent end.
Just run that one past again. Are you seriously advocating a theistic, monocultural state as the only natural organisation of society?
No, he's prophesying the end of western secular culture by "Sharia" because we are weak and don't believe in God as strongly as Muslims do. (as evidenced here. )
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
The gentle reminder is that a secular, multi-cultural state is an absurd ideology - an invention of the human mind - completely out of sync with nature and doomed to an ugly violent end.
Just run that one past again. Are you seriously advocating a theistic, monocultural state as the only natural organisation of society?
??? You ask if I am advocating - "a theistic, monocultural state as the only natural organisation of society?" Not one of those 11 words did I use.
What I said was - "The gentle reminder is that a secular, multi-cultural state is an absurd ideology - an invention of the human mind - completely out of sync with nature and doomed to an ugly violent end."
I don't mind arguing over what I say - but I'd rather not argue over what I don't say.
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
You can't see that Firenze's deduction is exactly what you implied? Difficult to "argue" if you won't back up your own statements.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I once was standing at a freeway entrance in the valley, hitchhiking. Bearded, long-haired with a backpack, ...Suddenly a squad car came barreling around the corner and screeched to a halt in front of me. Two officers jumped out and leveled their automatics at me from behind the open car doors.
[/QB]
Oh that's nothing. I was in San Pedro during the Rodney King riots. When all hell broke loose - there were NO POLICE anywhere near the violence. I stood on the Rancho Palos Verdes hillside watching half a dozen distant fires. I will never forget the video of the Korean grocer in South Central standing in his parking lot emptying and reloading his 9mm at anything that moved. There was no authority to stop him.
I could have driven up the Harbor Freeway and shot anything I wanted - at least until I got to Robertson Blvd. But no further. That's where all the police were.
Every cop in the LAPD had been immediately dispatched to the southeast border of West Hollywood, and Beverly Hills, and to the eastern border of Century City. Why? - well that's where all the rich, white, people who completely dominate the City Council lived - liberal, arrogant, self-righteous, moralistic, and judgemental about the rest of us. It was not the job of the police to stop the riot - it was their job to keep the riots away from the rich people. The LA Council didn't care about the people of the city - they cared about their gated communities - and getting us all back to work in their great machines as quickly as possible.
As always - rich man's war - but a poor man's fight.
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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themanwiththegingerhair
Apprentice
# 9691
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Posted
The police (or whoever they were) should not have allowed it to get to the position it did.
If they believed that he was a terrorist they should have raided his flat.
If they wanted to follow him then they should have been aware of the fact that he would use public transport.
The whole thing sounds so incompetent. He left his block of flats, caught a bus, got off at the tube station and only then did the police start chasing him. It is easy for people here to say he should have stopped but if someone in jeans and t-shirts pointed a gun at me then I am not sure my reactions would be all that rational. Stockwell is a noisy junction and he may have been wearing headphones. Who knows what he heard or thought. His reaction seems entirely logical: get away from them fast. Why didn’t the police plan for this eventuality?
Whoever was in charge of this operation has a lot of questions to answer. An innocent man has been killed and much of the media supports it. If that doesn’t encourage more suicide bombings I don’t know what will.
Posts: 28 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Jul 2005
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
You can't see that Firenze's deduction is exactly what you implied? Difficult to "argue" if you won't back up your own statements.
Unless my statement is attacked - I see no need to back it up.
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
What I said was - "The gentle reminder is that a secular, multi-cultural state is an absurd ideology - an invention of the human mind - completely out of sync with nature and doomed to an ugly violent end."
This statement is possibly the most ridiculous departure from reality I have yet to see on these boards and is indicative of nothing more than an obsession with apocalyptic non-sense. You have only to look around you to see secular, multi-cultural states that are in fact grounded in reality and not an invention of the human mind.
[sp]
[ 24. July 2005, 18:21: Message edited by: Gort ]
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Mark M
Shipmate
# 9500
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lurker McLurker™:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark M:
It is truly a tragedy, but on the other hand if armed police command you to stop and you don't, you will most likely get shot.
Shooting a suspect to stop him gettign away isn't legal in this country, they have to believe he is armed and presents an imminent danger to the police or public around him.
It is legal when you believe he is going to attempt the mass killing/maiming of others by detonating a device. And it is legal, when a compliant stop is authorised. Though, I'm unsure as to why they had to shoot him in the head - besides, I would not want to shoot without getting the bomb experts in first to examine him for hidden detonator.
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I only know three words of Latin: deus caritas est.
Posts: 139 | From: Edinburgh, Scotland UK | Registered: May 2005
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HopPik:
However the earlier part of what you say seems to me, now, extremely naive... perhaps a measure of how life has changed here in just two weeks.
What? About not hitting the floor when people are shouting frantically behind you? Have you noticed anyone hitting the floor instead of running?
[ 24. July 2005, 18:50: Message edited by: Rain Dog ]
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
It is very tragic that an innocent man was killed at Stockwell and it was a gross mistake on the part of the police. But before baying for anyone's blood, I emphasise the word mistake of which all humans are capable. This reminds me of an incident which took place some 30 years ago in which an imitation firearm was pulled on an armed police officer and the many carrying it was hot dead. His father made a statement saying, "the police should find out if the gun is real before they shoot anyone." The absudity of this is obvious. The only way to find out is to get shot.
We are living in a new era. The murdering scum of the IRA never once planted a bomb on an underground train. Although they killed many innocent people at Enniskillen, Warrington and Omagh, they war was generally fought against the British establishment, not the British public. This new campaign is against us , the travelling public who work hard to climb up life's greasy pole. We are not yet menatally equiped to deal with this. Neither are the police. If a "swarthy skinned man" and this is not racist, it fits with the known facts of the other bombers, wears a big winter coat on a summer day and runs away when asked to stop, what should the police do?
Wearing a coat and running away aren't things a man deserves to die for, but how are the poluce to know that, given how taught the situation on the underground has become now that it is becoming obvious that we may be in for a series of attacks? These are uncharted waters in which a shoot to kill policy is necessary in order to prevent detonation and more mass killings. In church this morning, we prayed for this victim of mistaken identity and his family. I pray to God that no such thing happens again. This is the evil the terrorists have brought us to. They must be laughing.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Sorry typo or bad English. Read taut for taught.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The poor Brazilian who was shot is as much a victim of the 7/7 bombings as those who died or were injured that terrible day.
I don't often agree with PaulTh, but I do now.
The police wouldn't have been armed, jumpy or inclined to shoot at the head (particularly at very, very close range) unless they thought, albeit in the heat of the moment, that they were pursuing a suicide bomber.
The worrying thing in all of this is the guilt-by-association aspect. The dead man lived in a house under surveillance. Therefore he was a potential suspect, even if he'd been completely unaware of the circumstances leading to the surveillance.
It does not bode well.
Here in Leeds, I've been impressed so far by the apparent calm and co-operation across the various faith and cultural groups that make up the city where two of the 7/7 bombers lived. But people who live in the area they came from tell me that the whole place is like a tinder-box and could go up at any moment. I've heard accounts of young Asians on factory shop-floors laughing, cheering and dancing at the news when the bombings were first announced. I don't know whether they're still laughing. Equally, there have been instances of bone-head white youths tanked up on lager shaking taxis driven by Pakistani taxi-drivers when they pull up at the lights opposite pubs around there. It'll be a long hot summer and there are many pressure points ...
PaulTh is right. It is a different kettle of fish entirely to the IRA campaigns, murderous and despicable though these were. Governments of both stripes were negotiating with Sinn Fein/IRA throughout the Troubles. Warnings were, generally, given. This is an entirely different landscape we're entering. Mistakes will be made.
I'm relieved that the Police have held up their hands and admitted the mistake. They must be stretched almost beyond endurance. As if they haven't enough to contend with already.
We need cool heads to ride this out. Cool heads alround.
Gamaliel
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
Gort - klatu verada nikto (loosely translated - down boy).
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
This statement is possibly the most ridiculous departure from reality I have yet to see on these boards
If my statement were ridiculous it wouldn't anger you so.
quote:
You have only to look around you to see secular, multi-cultural states that are in fact grounded in reality and not an invention of the human mind.
Secular multicultural states did not grow naturally. Man is an animal and animals stick to their own kind.
I don't know where you are looking. But what I see are dangerous, violent cities, endless wars for "democracy", and frightened peoples willing to accept ever-growing police states to protect them from foreigners who don't spend their time posting hundreds of messages on bulletin boards worrying about the morality of their actions.
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rain Dog:
given that cops don't usually have guns, I'd be inclined to believe they aren't cops and either unstable or out to get me.
That's the bit that has become naive RD, though just a short while ago it wouldn't have been. Naive firstly because it's now a safe bet that anywhere in London or any other city there are armed police close at hand. So if anyone points a gun at you yelling "police" it is highly probable that they are just who they say they are. And secondly, as this won't have happened unless the officer thinks you are a threat to the public, if you then don't do exactly as you are told you are likely to be shot. That's the world we're in now.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
What I said was - "The gentle reminder is that a secular, multi-cultural state is an absurd ideology - an invention of the human mind - completely out of sync with nature and doomed to an ugly violent end."
Well, if you object to my inference from this of what the 'correct' sort of state is, maybe you would like to upack it a little? If 'secular' is absurd, unnatural and doomed, what is the alternative? My suggestion is 'theistic', which is to say enforcing the public worship of a god or gods as a duty of citizens Like the Roman Empire, for example. Can you explain to us why this is a good thing?
'Multicultural' - tell me, have you ever eaten pizza/curry? or drunk beer or wine? Were any of these orginated on the landmass where you live? Do they owe nothing to Italians, German, Indians, French? Your whole life, if you examined it, would be a tissue of borrowings and assimilations from every nation under heaven.
What society is not an 'invention of the human mind'?
'Out of sync with nature'. As far as I can see nature is a system of parasitism and predation. Everything battens on the life and death of something else.
I don't actually have a problem with the 'doomed'. History is full of civilisations and empires that have risen and fallen. I don't accept that we are are unique, nor that whatever order you think acceptable would not, too, were it ever to flower, would not also decay.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Originally posted by Gort
quote:
You have only to look around you to see secular, multi-cultural states that are in fact grounded in reality and not an invention of the human mind
Dear Gort
Do you see many multi-cultural states where it works well? The best example is the USA. Waves of immigrants from Eastern Europe, Jewish and Christian mixed with Italians and Irish and helped to found the most successful nation in this world. But, as ever, there is a downside. The blacks, who were there long before the Irish or the Jews, never seem to have benefitted, as a group, from the prosperity of the country.
In most countries multiculturalism is a disaster. In Iran the ancient Zoroastrian religion and the modern Bah'a'i religion have been ousted by Islamic extremism. Orthodox Greeks and Muslim Turks are still partitioned in Cyprus. In Northern Ireland there is a merciful lull in the violence. But are the communities any closer to being multicultural?
The only type of society in which multicultuarlism has any chance is in our Western liberal democracies in which, as a matter of principal we recognise the rights of all to practice their religion free from interference. But unfortunately, it is that very liberalism which succours them, that many of these Eastern religions so despise. Multi culturalsim is a worthy aim. You do as you do and I do as I do and we do it in mutual respect. Sadly it seems that there are few places on earth where this works. Blame it on the badness of human nature.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
quote:
If 'secular' is absurd, unnatural and doomed, what is the alternative?
How about ancestor worship? How about living accordance with our nature?
I don't know - I just know that telling people - these are the rules - and here are 100,000 policemen with machine guns who will kill you if you don't follow them - is not a good way to live.
quote:
My suggestion is 'theistic', which is to say enforcing the public worship of a god or gods as a duty of citizens Like the Roman Empire, for example. Can you explain to us why this is a good thing?
It isn't. I never said it was.
quote:
'Multicultural' - tell me, have you ever eaten pizza/curry?
Yep. Love pizza.
quote:
or drunk beer or wine?
Yes - hate them both - Bombay Blue Sapphire on the other hand - heavenly.
quote:
Were any of these orginated on the landmass where you live?
I don't know. What's your point - that the citizens of Iraq will be better off when there's a McDonalds on every street corner? OK. Dinner will certainly be cheaper.
quote:
Do they owe nothing to Italians, German, Indians, French?
Well I consider myself racially German - though culturally English. I don't know. I imagine they do.
quote:
Your whole life, if you examined it, would be a tissue of borrowings and assimilations from every nation under heaven.
Ummm - could you re-phrase the question - I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.
quote:
What society is not an 'invention of the human mind'?
Traditional societies. But they piss off liberals because they tend to be hierarchical, believe men and women are different, and value children.
quote:
'Out of sync with nature'. As far as I can see nature is a system of parasitism and predation. Everything battens on the life and death of something else.
I agree - and that is a devastating rebuttal to those of use who worship her. Monotheism exists only because people cannot face the terrifying reality of nature - which is that killing needs no justification other than that "I am stronger" - and dying needs no explanation other than that "I am weaker".
Believe me, I would love to put a happy face on nature. But nature is real. The fevered constructions of your mind - are like vapors.
quote:
I don't actually have a problem with the 'doomed'. History is full of civilisations and empires that have risen and fallen. I don't accept that we are are unique, nor that whatever order you think acceptable would not, too, were it ever to flower, would not also decay.
We agree.
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The only type of society in which multicultuarlism has any chance is in our Western liberal democracies in which, as a matter of principal we recognise the rights of all to practice their religion free from interference. But unfortunately, it is that very liberalism which succours them, that many of these Eastern religions so despise. Multi culturalsim is a worthy aim. You do as you do and I do as I do and we do it in mutual respect. Sadly it seems that there are few places on earth where this works. Blame it on the badness of human nature.
I wish to heaven I could say you were wrong, Paul. I would like to think that, on a global scale, we could live and let live in mutual respect for one another's faith. I don't really see that happening any time soon (if ever). Is there no hope, this side of the parousia, for anything short of one side annihilating the other, or else mutual assured destruction?
Benjamin Franklin, in a different context, once said, "Gentlemen, we must all hang together, else we shall all hang separately."
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
The attacks in London are an example of narrow-minded cultural bigots who see their religous identity threatened by creeping westernization. Nevermind that same westernization allows for freedom of mixed cultures and religion. If those suicidal fanatics would practice their true religion and not try to force their version of Muslim dogma down others' throats, there wouldn't be a problem. No one is forcing these extremists to eat at MacDonalds, watch Oprah or buy halter tops.
I don't see a flood of Westerners pounding at the gates of middle-east embassies begging citizenship. The history of the world has always been a clash of cultures with the technologically superior always winning out. Assimilate or die. Eventually the more advanced culture declines to be replaced by another, but I can't see an example where the decline was replaced by a return to barbarism. Instead, you see another morphing into something better. Extremist Islam isn't the future. You're seeing the death rattle of a dying culture that had its day in the sun long ago and failed.
PaulTH: The only objection I have with your comments is this: quote:
The blacks, who were there long before the Irish or the Jews, never seem to have benefitted, as a group, from the prosperity of the country.
How many African-Americans do you suppose would trade their current lifestyle for a return to Niger? My black friend, who lives next door to me, lives in exactly the same apartment, has a better paying job and drives a better car. His only complaint are the Republican supervisors at his job with the Boeing Company.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
In response to Firenze's clear example of RGF's consuming multi-cultural products: quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
I don't know. What's your point - that the citizens of Iraq will be better off when there's a McDonalds on every street corner? OK. Dinner will certainly be cheaper.
It's not exactly constructive to blow off Firenze's reasoning by deflecting it into an assumption she wants MacD's in Iraq. You know exactly what she meant and chose to ignore it.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Dear Gort
I apologise. There is a large and growing black middle class in the US, and we even have the beginnings of it in the UK. I welcome it. But it would be fair to say that, statistically, blacks remain at the bottom of the social ladder. This isn't a criticism of black people, its an observation.
Perhaps our governments have got work to do in changing the culture of failure in young blacks which so often leads to a life of crime. let's hope they do it.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
[...] But it would be fair to say that, statistically, blacks remain at the bottom of the social ladder. This isn't a criticism of black people, its an observation.
Sorry, Paul. That position on the social ladder is claimed by our Mexican immigrants.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow:
quote:
Secular multicultural states did not grow naturally. Man is an animal and animals stick to their own kind.
Neither did any other form of political organisation. Human beings are prone to organise themselves according to something called culture which derives from nature but is not coterminous with it. Many forms of political organisation have been multi-cultural, as it happens, one thinks of the Persian Empire, prior to the rise of Islam, the Empire of Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, which was officially Islamic but tolerated Christians and Jews within its borders, the Hapsburg Empire which was an agglomeration of nationalities and religions, the British Empire.
The idea that, as a matter of nature we cannot live among a multiple of cultures is absurd. All human societies, with a few exceptions such as North Korea or Bhutan are predicated on the meeting of cultures, their inter-relationship and penetration and their development. Cultures are not static. The idea that we can have a British culture untainted by other cultures can be refuted by the reflection that British Beef, which is considered axiomatically British derives from the Latin Brittania which comes from our Roman antecedents, the notion of Britishness comes from a complex interaction of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, and that Beef comes from the French boeuf which derives from the invasion of England by a group of French speaking Scandanavian warriors. Historically, multi-culturalism is the norm.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HopPik:
That's the bit that has become naive RD, though just a short while ago it wouldn't have been. Naive firstly because it's now a safe bet that anywhere in London or any other city there are armed police close at hand. So if anyone points a gun at you yelling "police" it is highly probable that they are just who they say they are. And secondly, as this won't have happened unless the officer thinks you are a threat to the public, if you then don't do exactly as you are told you are likely to be shot. That's the world we're in now.
Well this world of shoot to kill had not been clearly established - I don't recall anyone telling me (or the media reporting) that anyone acting suspiciously would be shot 5 times in the head. The police had not made that kind of statement at that point - of course, no-one will run now even if it isn't the police. They've made sure that everyone is aware of their shoot to kill policy now but there was no evidence of it before hand.
Now you are also assuming that he had heard this without any shadow of doubt and they had clearly IDed themselves to them - neither of which has been established yet.
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
The attacks in London are an example of narrow-minded cultural bigots who see their religous identity threatened by creeping westernization. Nevermind that same westernization allows for freedom of mixed cultures and religion.
In other words Gort - multiculturalism would work just fine if everyone would just think like you.
The people you call "narrow-minded cultural bigots" are right - their way of life is threatened by westernization. All they have to do is look at our empty churches - which serve as tombs for a culture that existed once.
There are however still some of us left who don't worship the state.
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
There are still more of us left who don't care what you worship.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
There are however still some of us left who don't worship the state.
I don't worship the state.
I don't worship Allah.
And, like Gort, I really couldn't give a flying toss what or whom you worship.
Not that that last statement is meant to be offensive. Just honest. And it goes for most people.
And anyone, for example the people who perpetrated the 7/7 attacks, who thinks that they have the right to blow people up because they don't worship the same God as them (although some of the 7/7 dead were Muslims..) simply ARE bigotted and worthless specks of murderous putressence who bring shame to everything they claim to believe in. They are no more or less worthy of our sympathy than any other cold-blooded murderers who have literally no excuse whatever for their crimes.
Indeed, of course, the vastly overwhelming majority of Muslims do not agree with them and Islam forbids the killing of innocent people....
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Infinite Penguins.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
First - thank you for an intelligent (as opposed to a ranting) response.
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Neither did any other form of political organisation. Human beings are prone to organise themselves according to something called culture which derives from nature...
Well right, but you bias your response by using the term "political." Political organizations are unnatural - but organization itself is not. All animals organize themselves - and they do it without any culture. By and large they organize themselves acording to Darwinian principles designed to ensure their group survival. The impetus for that organization is in their nature. My claim is that humans have the same innate Darwinian nature.
The Neanderthals who were suspicious of outsiders tended to survive and have children - those who lacked that suspicion tended to die young.
I think you are wrong about multiculturalism as a positive force. I think it is hubris thinking that what God made separate - you can mold into one. And even worse - to decide for yourself that such a thing - if you could do it - is good.
quote:
Persian Empire, prior to the rise of Islam, the Empire of Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, which was officially Islamic but tolerated Christians and Jews within its borders,
Yes but these multicultural empires were not entered into voluntairily by the peoples they subdued - they were held together by the power of the gun [Tito's Yugoslavia and Stalin's Soviet Union are more recent examples].
The empires you cite never tried to supplant the indiginous population, culture, and faith with something else. They existed primarily to exploit the wealth and labor of those peoples. The Bolshevik revolution however did declare the Orthodox faith to be its enemy. So does the modern secular democracy. You cannot have separate religions - particularly separate monotheisms - living together unless deep down - the believers in those religions put the secular democracy above their god. Gort never understood this - but that Islam refuses to do this means they cannot be dominated by secular democracy. Either we will live separately - or we will live in a Muslim nation under Islamic law.
Secular democracy sees real faith as its enemy - and it is right to do that - Christ is an enemy of the state - all states. Man cannot serve two masters.
quote:
The idea that we can have a British culture untainted by other cultures ...that British Beef, which is considered axiomatically British derives from the Latin Brittania which comes from our Roman antecedents, the notion of Britishness comes from a complex interaction of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, and that Beef comes from the French boeuf which derives from the invasion of England by a group of French speaking Scandanavian warriors. Historically, multi-culturalism is the norm. [/QB]
buef was Norman. The Saxons used the term cow, cu. The Saxon working class retained it's language and to the extent it was able, its culture. How do you explain - after so many centuries - the passion for separate parlaments for Wales, Ireland, and Scotland? And there are nationalists in England who'd like an English parlament.
Do you think they just don't get it? They just don't see how much better off they are sending their children to die in distant wars for the British empire - than having them seve their home, neighborhood, and nation - locally?
It is late and I am very tired - I must go to bed. Your thoughtful post deserves a much better response - I'm sorry.
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
I don't worship Allah.
If you were an Arabic-speaking Christian you would. Just like if you spoke French you'd worship Dieu.
The problem with your approval of the Neanderthals' suspicion of outsiders, Robingoodfellow, is that the Neanderthals' choices don't exactly constitute a moral standard, whereas Christianity encourages us to extend hospitality to the strangers who come among us (Matthew 25, I believe).
[ 25. July 2005, 02:25: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
First - thank you for an intelligent (as opposed to a ranting) response.
It's intelligent to defend the London bombers by referrence to the fact that
quote:
their way of life is threatened by westernization
?
Oh. Pardon me.
I'm not denying that representatives of The West have done some pretty awful things in some of the Arab countries. Nor am I denying that some people view the War in Iraq (and attempts to impose libral values, democracy etc) as an attack on their ways of life. Nor am I denying that some people view the War on Terror as a cover for a War on Islam...
Without going into whether they are right or not...
I am denying that any of that gives them the right to plants bombs or makes their actions excusable in any way. The law of this country, and the laws of Islam, state that they have no such right.
I'm not saying that can be sure of getting what they want by peaceful means. In fact, I think it highly unlikely that they will get what they want by either peaceful or violent means but life is about compromise. The suicide bombers rejected their lives...
If you noticed, Gort said the people 7/7 bombers and those like them were and are bigots. He is, IMO, correct. He did NOT say that all Muslims were bigots or that anyone who resents the West is a bigot.
The other think I wish to refute is your idea that it is liberalism which is the problem. I think the problem is squarely in the camp of those authoritarian right-wingers who simply don't understand that there will always be conflicts in any society, for the simple reason that you cannot force somebody else to share your views and neither can I or anybody else.
The answer to this is to live and let live as far as is possible within the bounds of decency. Or, if you prefer, the answer is not to impose one's will on everyone else. Because you can't and it is stupid and unrealistic to even try. In fact, I am not sure that it is not also narcisstic into the bargain.
So, basically, I am white, secular, middle-class, Guardian-reading liberal and, therefore, everything is the fault of me and those like me. It's ok, though, the tabloids tell me so on a regular basis. It's not just you.
But yes, it is late and I am also tired.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
I don't worship Allah.
If you were an Arabic-speaking Christian you would. Just like if you spoke French you'd worship Dieu.
Yes, I would Ruth.
But since I am neither Arabic-speaking or a Christian or a follower of any other religion I don't. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I wasn't having a go at those who worship Allah and/or are Muslims. Apologies if that was not clear.
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Infinite Penguins.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Siena
Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574
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Posted
Robin, when you return, would you mind unpacking a bit more what you mean by "traditional societies" that "piss off liberals because they tend to be hierarchical, believe men and women are different, and value children"?
Are we talking hunter-gatherer societies, Renaissance Florence, polygamous sects in remote areas of Utah and Arizona (all of whom arguably fit your criteria) - what, exactly?
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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson
Posts: 709 | From: San Diego, California, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
No problem, Papio. ButI'd go a step further--I have no doubt that the Muslims, the Jews and the Christians all worship the same God.
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
The other think I wish to refute is your idea that it is liberalism which is the problem. I think the problem is squarely in the camp of those authoritarian right-wingers who simply don't understand that there will always be conflicts in any society, for the simple reason that you cannot force somebody else to share your views and neither can I or anybody else.
The answer to this is to live and let live as far as is possible within the bounds of decency. Or, if you prefer, the answer is not to impose one's will on everyone else. Because you can't and it is stupid and unrealistic to even try. In fact, I am not sure that it is not also narcisstic into the bargain.
I couldn't agree more. I think we have a lot more to fear from authoritarian right-wingers both at home and abroad than we do from liberals.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
Well right, but you bias your response by using the term "political." Political organizations are unnatural - but organization itself is not.
Where do you draw the distinction? What makes one kind of behavior "natural" and another "unnatural"?
quote:
All animals organize themselves - and they do it without any culture. By and large they organize themselves acording to Darwinian principles designed to ensure their group survival. The impetus for that organization is in their nature. My claim is that humans have the same innate Darwinian nature.
Would you say that this "innate Darwinian nature" is somehow more purely expressed in Islam than in Western societies? I'm not sure that I'd consider Muslims to be especially monocultural; after all, the countries ranked first and second by Muslim population are Indonesia and India.
quote:
The Neanderthals who were suspicious of outsiders tended to survive and have children - those who lacked that suspicion tended to die young.
I'm curious as to the source of your knowledge regarding the suspicions (or lack thereof) among the Neanderthals - and even if they were as you say, I'm skeptical as to their usefulness as guides to successful behavior, as the Neanderthals themselves don't seem to have fared too well over the longer term.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
No problem, Papio. ButI'd go a step further--I have no doubt that the Muslims, the Jews and the Christians all worship the same God.
I don't either really. They obviously have different takes on that God, both between and within their respective religions. I think, however, that you are probably correct.
quote:
I think we have a lot more to fear from authoritarian right-wingers both at home and abroad than we do from liberals.
Yes. Although I also think we have more to fear from authoritarian left-wingers like the Baarthists...
I tend to be economically left-wing but socially liberal, as anyone who reads my posts has probably spotted.
However, I think there is room for misunderstandings in my last post to this thread and so I may have to go back to bed and see if I can get to sleep this time...
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
As far as I can see nature is a system of parasitism and predation. Everything battens on the life and death of something else.
I think it was Fay Weldon once said, always remember nature kills you in the end.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
I don't think I can unpack the number of things that are depressing me about this turn of events. It's just awful. But like Peronel, I think this shooting is distressing on a different level than the bombings themselves - we always knew there were nutters who'd be keen to set off bombs for one reason or another. This awful mistake by the police shakes foundations in a totally different way.
One thing that's depressing is the way people seem to be edging towards blaming the dead man (not just a few people here, but IRL). Who knows what his reasons were for running? Reports say he'd left a block of flats, i.e. multiple occupancy - there's nothing so far to indicate he was even aquainted with the bomb suspects who lived there. Maybe he didn't know it was the police. Maybe he didn't hear them identify themselves. Maybe he had been in trouble in Brazil and thought that trouble had finally tracked him down. Maybe he was a petty criminal who thought the police were after him for some other reason. Maybe he'd just bought a bag of hash and put it in his pocket. Maybe he just panicked. Who knows?
Not that I think the police did this out of badness, and I'm sure the officers involved are horrified and traumatised, but blaming the victim for whatever horrible concatenation of circumstances led to his death isn't going to help either. I'm glad to hear so many people are sure how they'd react in a similar situation - I'm not sure at all how I'd react.
The other thing that's depressing me is the people now crawling out of the woodwork to sneer how multi-culturism is to blame for it all (yeah, we shouldn't let these Brazilians into the country all the time). Never mind all the Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and people of all cultures of any or no religion who are living here perfectly peaceably (some of them my friends and neighbors) with no intention of blowing anything up. In my worse moments I think it's only a matter of time now till we see revenge bombings on those communities, and a NI-style spiral of attack and counter attack, with everybody thinking they've a righteous grievance. And if that happens - apologies in advance to nicolermw - the terrorists will have won.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385
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Posted
I don't blame the guy involved, because its impossible to know what was going through his mind. Maybe he panicked, maybe he thought he was being mugged, maybe something else happeneed.
But the bottom line is, what is the point of having armed response units to combat suicide bombers if they are not going to shoot people who ignore verbal warnings, leap over a ticket barrier and run onto an underground train?
Of course we now know that this bloke had nothing to do with terrorism. But if we want the police to protect us, they have to have the right to use lethal force in circumstances where a suspected suicide bomber ignores their instructions and runs off.
Certainly mistakes were made in the intelligence phase, and possibly in the decision to allow him to board a bus, but not a tube. But these are procedural and intelligence failures, and manifestly not failures of the polices own regulations about rules of engagement with suspected suicide bombers.
Posts: 984 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ginga
Ship's lurker
# 1899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
I Who knows what his reasons were for running? <snip> Maybe he had been in trouble in Brazil and thought that trouble had finally tracked him down.
Quite. To follow on from what Louise said ages ago: There have been reports that he was from the kind of area of Brazil where running away from plain-clothed people with guns is a frequently-practised and pretty ingrained survival mechanism. I doubt four years of London would be enough to re-train the mind.
I've never been to Brazil, so I don't know how reasonable an explanation this is, mind.
Posts: 1075 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rain Dog:
quote:
Originally posted by HopPik:
That's the bit that has become naive RD, though just a short while ago it wouldn't have been. Naive firstly because it's now a safe bet that anywhere in London or any other city there are armed police close at hand. So if anyone points a gun at you yelling "police" it is highly probable that they are just who they say they are. And secondly, as this won't have happened unless the officer thinks you are a threat to the public, if you then don't do exactly as you are told you are likely to be shot. That's the world we're in now.
Well this world of shoot to kill had not been clearly established - I don't recall anyone telling me (or the media reporting) that anyone acting suspiciously would be shot 5 times in the head. The police had not made that kind of statement at that point - of course, no-one will run now even if it isn't the police. They've made sure that everyone is aware of their shoot to kill policy now but there was no evidence of it before hand.
Now you are also assuming that he had heard this without any shadow of doubt and they had clearly IDed themselves to them - neither of which has been established yet.
I'm not assuming that at all, and I'm not making any value judgements at all about that poor man. The point is that on the published evidence, his unseasonal clothing and his behaviour, albeit innocent, and whether understandable or not, made him indistinguishable from a suicide bomber about to blow up the train onto which he threw himself. And so I don't feel in any position to criticise the police officer who shot him or the policy he was following.
As for whether that policy was sufficiently publicised, yes there may be questions to ask there. I know I'd heard more than one comment in the media to the effect that anyone thought to be a suicide bomber on a mission was likely to be shot before they had a chance to detonate, but I think those comments were made out of common sense rather than from any official announcement. Certainly if that policy was made explicit by the police or the government I'm not aware of it. Whether doing so would have prevented the Stockwell killing is another matter. I suspect for many of us these things don't really sink in until something has happened, rather than through anything we've been told. Certainly for me, the position didn't really become clear till I saw that entirely innocent Asian man with a backpack on the ground with machine guns pointed at his head outside Downing St.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ginga:
Quite. To follow on from what Louise said ages ago: There have been reports that he was from the kind of area of Brazil where running away from plain-clothed people with guns is a frequently-practised and pretty ingrained survival mechanism. I doubt four years of London would be enough to re-train the mind.
I've never been to Brazil, so I don't know how reasonable an explanation this is, mind.
Fine. It was not his fault- I am happy to accept that. But equally, it's not the fault of the police. It was just a tragic accident.
Posts: 984 | Registered: Oct 2002
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RobinGoodfellow
Apprentice
# 9236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem with your approval of the Neanderthals' suspicion of outsiders, Robingoodfellow, is that the Neanderthals' choices don't exactly constitute a moral standard, whereas Christianity encourages us to extend hospitality to the strangers who come among us (Matthew 25, I believe). [/QB]
Correct. Nature is not moral. Morality is a virus contracted by civilizations in their last stages when men listen to their heads rather than the trees.
But I don't think that's what you mean - I hope not. Because you seem decent enough to be misled but not malevolent enough to mislead.
2,000 years ago in Palestine - the hospitality one extended to someone on the road was personal and human - not political. Today it is invoked by those who hate western civilization to sell a political, capitalist, and secular agenda to the gentiles. Feeding a traveler and opening the borders to a culturally and environmentally hostile nation are entirely different things.
Abstract morality as preached by the secular statists - is simply propaganda designed to make people act against their own interests. One doesn't need morality to get people to act in the interest of their neighbors - simple humanity will do. But the lowest depths of hell is for those who sell their childrens inheritance on the promises of some "christian" preacher or capitalist or anti-western bigot telling us we are doing Good.
When nature appears to be moral it is a tribal, personal, and pragmatic response which provides for the survival of the group. The only morality in nature is that which derives from a bio-social response to tribal self-interest.
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The People of the Hills have all left...little people, pishogues, leprechauns, night-riders, pixies, nixies, gnomes, and the rest—gone, all gone! I came into England with Oak, Ash, and Thorn, and when Oak, Ash, and Thorn are gone I shall go too.’
Posts: 44 | From: Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RobinGoodfellow:
Morality is a virus contracted by civilizations in their last stages when men listen to their heads rather than the trees.
As a purely general comment, this being Purgatory and all, does it occur to shipmates that there are some who post as though their head was carved out of a tree?
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
Sorry hosts. Rapping myself over the knuckles for that.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Flying_Belgian:
But equally, it's not the fault of the police. It was just a tragic accident.
I keep hearing this and frankly I don't understand it. Of course it was the fault of the police. He was deliberately shot five times in the head.
I'm deeply disturbed by the lack of serious questions being raised here. When IRA members were shot dead in Gibraltar there was an outcry, even though there was a significant body of evidence that the victims were a threat. This is not the case here as far as I can tell, yet the public seem to be overwhelmingly behind the police.
I'm actually encountering people - none here, I hasten to add - who actually believe that it's better to be safe than sorry and just shoot the suspects. I don't remember ever coming across this before.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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