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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: New blasts in London
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Billfrid:
Acting on the advice of the Israeli Police, the armed police in the Met now shoot people in the head, so they have no chance of surviving when the police make a mistake.
I take it you mean the "so" in that sentence to be read in the sense of "and as a result" rather than in the sense of "in order that".
But just to be clear, that advice to police officers only applies when they believe the person before them is able and prepared to detonate a bomb in a public place. In any other situation police are still expected to fire at the centre of mass. In any situation (bomber or otherwise) they are only expected to fire at all if their immediate judgement is that if they do not they or members of the public will be in immediate danger of death or injury and no other alternative is available.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
On the question of what he was wearing, and on this thread I've supported the position that anyone wearing a thick coat on a warm day is at least a reasonable object of suspicion in this context... I was taking offspring and friend round an inadequately air-conditioned, sweaty museum this afternoon, and saw a guy doing likewise in a large, quilted puffer-jacket. Seems some like it hot. But he was white Anglo with kids, nobody's going to shoot him.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Billfrid:
quote:
I think the police would try quite hard not to shoot someone in the head if they could avoid it - the officers concerned are always suspended pending enquiries, and risk criminal charges if they acted improperly.
Moth
Acting on the advice of the Israeli Police, the armed police in the Met now shoot people in the head, so they have no chance of surviving when the police make a mistake.
I do know the protocols - I explained them myself further up the thread. What I meant was, the police are likely to carry them out only if they believe they have ample justification, since the certain death of the subject raises the spectre of a murder charge if they act improperly.
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Seems they've got 3 of the 4 suspects now, according to BBC News 24 (also live webcast, BTW).
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Good for the police!
Now I do hope my friends in the UK haven't been so foolish as to abolish the death penalty.
In the war against the IRA, groups of innocent people were improperly convicted of heinous crimes for which they would assuredly have been given the death penalty - had it been on the books in the UK.
UK Miscarriages of Justice
quote:
In 1974 Judith Ward was convicted of murder of several people caused by a number of IRA bombings 1973. She was finally released in 1992.
The Birmingham Six were wrongly convicted in 1975 of planting two bombs in pubs in Birmingham in 1974 which killed 21 people and injured 182. They were finally released in 1991.
The Guildford Four were wrongly convicted in 1975 of being members of the Provisional IRA and planting bombs in two Guildford pubs which killed four people. They served nearly 15 years in prison before being released in 1989. (See Tony Blair's apology under The Maguire Seven below.)
The Maguire Seven were convicted in 1976 of offences related to the Guildford and Woolwich bombings of 1974. They served sentences ranging from 5 to 10 years. Giuseppe Conlon died in prison. Their convictions were quashed in 1991. On 9 February 2005 British Prime Minister Tony Blair issued a public apology to the Maguire Seven and the Guildford Four for the miscarriages of justice they had suffered. He said: "I am very sorry that they were subject to such an ordeal and such an injustice. They deserve to be completely and publicly exonerated."
These are just the very high profile cases - but it's worth looking at a few of the individuals involved. Judith Ward was mentally-ill young woman of 25 who was wrongly convicted of an appalling bombing which killed 12 people. It took her 18 years to prove her innocence.
This lady, Anne Maguire - seen here receiving an honour given by the late Holy Father for her christian witness of forgiveness of those who persecuted her - was wrongly convicted of running a bomb factory in her home. It took 15 years for her conviction to be quashed. She'd have been executed under your approach, Mark.
The urge to get convictions in terrorist cases is so strong that they're particularly prone to miscarriages of justice. The police reckon we've got 3 out of the 4 suspects but last week we 'reckoned' that they'd shot a suicide bomber boarding a train in Stockwell - remember how that turned out?
Its really ironic to see people denounce terrorists for what they do and then turn round and advocate approaches which we know have a grave potential to kill innocent people in these circumstances.
L.
[ 29. July 2005, 16:26: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
4 out of 4 (BBC News 24) - the last one arrested in Rome.
Well, at least they were not killed during their capture, whatever one may think of this. There is a fair chance to find out more about their connections and perhaps motives.
I don't think the struggle is over yet (will it ever be?), but it is impressive to see this.
[ 29. July 2005, 16:37: Message edited by: Wesley J ]
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Good for the police!
Now I do hope my friends in the UK haven't been so foolish as to abolish the death penalty.
Ah, I'm missing the point here. The deterrent value to someone keen to blow themselves up in commission of their crime?
We have, of course, 99.9% abolished the death penalty, but we're still hanging on to the softie idea of bringing someone to trial before serving punishment to the proven guilty.
Hmmm, maybe retribution, then? The good ol' buzz from killing something? We could always beat them to death under 'interrogation', of course.
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glimmer:
We have, of course, 99.9% abolished the death penalty
100% these days - it remained a possibility for certain political offences until very recently but that has finally been got rid of. Also we now will supposedly refuse to hand someone over to extradition for something they might be executed for in another jurisdiction.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
100%? Don't we technically still have everybody's alltime favourite - Arson in a Naval Dockyard - (as a capital offence) now restricted to times of war, rather than abolished outright?
Fourth bomber now reported captured in Rome, at his brother's house BTW
Ian
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Well said Louise. Less than 100 non-lethal UK miscarriages of justice in the Troubles against at least 1758 lethal miscarriages of justice carried out by the Provos, nearly twice as many as their nearest rivals, the loyalist murderers of 911. I have no idea of the many thousands of non-lethal miscarriages of justice carried out by the IRA, from bombing through knee-capping to punishment beating survivors. It must be in the order of 10,000.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Martin: What's your point?
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Good for the police!
Now I do hope my friends in the UK haven't been so foolish as to abolish the death penalty.
The death penalty was abolished in the UK some time ago. But even had it not been, any idiot would realize that the death penalty would be neither punishment nor deterrent to a willing suicide bomber.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
But as I keep saying, rather boringly, it's hopeless to speculate until we know the facts. If we ever do - we certainly won't know what the poor deceased chap was thinking or why he did whatever he did that finally led to his shooting.
Oh, dear, Moth. Why would we want any facts? It would spoil all this lovely speculation.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Trenchant nay mordant flesh-tearing (sarcasm for the unGreeked) Laura. I fully acknowledge the appalling miscarriages of justice carried out by HMG in my name and would be even further appalled if they had ended in the death penalty. Which I'm for in theory but not in practice.
But the PIRA committed 1758 miscarriages of justice with the death penalty against the UK's 4 + 6 + 7 + ... = << 100 WITHOUT.
It is of course debatable that the standard of UK justice would have been HIGHER if the death penalty had prevailed in such cases.
[ 02. August 2005, 09:45: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Good for the police!
Now I do hope my friends in the UK haven't been so foolish as to abolish the death penalty.
Would that be according to how intelligent they were when they committed the crime, or how intelligent they had become since...?
Isn't it 5/5 they've arrested, not 4/4? Plus two brothers of the one in Italy.
Weirdly, one of them was reported as having been 'scared' when they arrested him. Maybe the urge to kill oneself for the cause comes and goes a little.
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
OK, now that I can be arissed to count, that's 19 NON-lethal (Guiseppe Conlon died of cancer in prison I know and I wept at the portrayal of that lovely man by Pete Postlethwaite in the superb In The Name Of The Father) UK miscarriages of justice against 1758 LETHAL PIRA ones.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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