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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Can you be a Christian and a Calvinist?
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Might be better to say that God wants all to be saved, that the death of Jesus for the sins of the whole world proves this, but that he only effectually calls some — and that this too is an expression of what God wants.
God as victim of multiple personality disorder. I'm not sure that's better than God as red-eyed demon, frankly.
If seeing different possibilities, acknowledging the good in some, and then choosing one = multiple personality disorder, then I suppose you have a point and we are all red-eyed demons.
God doesn't want anyone murdered (so the 10C). Without murder, however, Jesus wouldn't have died for our sins, and we would still be dead and under judgment. Thus God both wills that we not murder and wills that his Son die on the cross.
What a glorious personality disorder, that results in us becoming children of God.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Not all of us, just the "chosen." What a glorious set of blinkers that can make that seem like a good thing.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
MT, unless you are a universalist (and that is not how I understand Greek Orthodoxy) you too are going to have to come up with a reason why not everybody loves Jesus.
I think we need to give credit to Calvin for struggling to find his answer in the Bible. We may not agree with him, but he was no nutter, and put forward the grace of God as strongly as any Augustinian theologian (which is what he was, I insist—among other things).
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The Arminian God is like a cat sitting by a mousehole and blinking occassionally. The mice are going to be caught, but one or two might get through.
Whaaaat?
Would you care to explain that analogy? I'm afraid I don't see how that relates to anything I know about Arminianism!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Thank you Gord, I think you just made me decide I am an unconditional Universalist.I was undecided before.
I can tolerate the idea of some sort of Purgatorial state after death, but I cannot believe that God would create people for the sole purpose of sending them to Hell. The only way I can accept the doctrine of irresistable grace is by being a Universalist.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
MT, unless you are a universalist (and that is not how I understand Greek Orthodoxy) you too are going to have to come up with a reason why not everybody loves Jesus.
But that's easy. Because they choose not to.
Don't tell my bishop but I tend toward Universalism myself.
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
MT, unless you are a universalist (and that is not how I understand Greek Orthodoxy) you too are going to have to come up with a reason why not everybody loves Jesus.
It's called either (1) Free Will, or—as Luther expounded it—(2) a Will in Bondage.
We are made in God's image, something not even given to angels. A part of that image is that we are given is the ability to create and make choices.
Think of it as, "If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve." (Quote from U.S. Army Gen. William Sherman, in reference to running for political office) Even thought God has nominated and elected us, some of us choose not to serve. That is the freedom God gave us.
quote:
I think we need to give credit to Calvin for struggling to find his answer in the Bible. We may not agree with him, but he was no nutter, and put forward the grace of God as strongly as any Augustinian theologian (which is what he was, I insist—among other things).
But ends up proving that sola scriptura doesn't work.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Thank you Gord, I think you just made me decide I am an unconditional Universalist.I was undecided before.
I can tolerate the idea of some sort of Purgatorial state after death, but I cannot believe that God would create people for the sole purpose of sending them to Hell. The only way I can accept the doctrine of irresistable grace is by being a Universalist.
Grace isn't irresistable.
If grace is irresistable, then God is nothing more than the Great B. F. Skinner in the Sky. Stimulus. Response. Stimulus. Response.
The pattern doesn't exist because we have free will (or a will held in bondage to sin). Just because God has foreknowledge to know how we will make the decision doesn't mean it is God's decision.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Thank you Gord, I think you just made me decide I am an unconditional Universalist.I was undecided before.
I can tolerate the idea of some sort of Purgatorial state after death, but I cannot believe that God would create people for the sole purpose of sending them to Hell. The only way I can accept the doctrine of irresistable grace is by being a Universalist.
Well at the risk of sounding like a Roman Catholic
“Not that there’s anything wrong with that” – Seinfeld
since when did we get the power to make or break our own doctrines, depending on whether we like them or not?
If God is loving ruler of his creation, then he really does lovingly rule it. We can’t believe that and then make exceptions for the bits where we’d rather he left us alone.
The idea of resistible grace, whilst still wrong, probably causes less difficulty than universalism. If someone could prove that grace wasn't irresistible, I'd go with Arminianism]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
What would it take to prove to you that grace isn't irresistable? Since you already believe in a monster God who would make people just to send them to Hell, what sort of reductio ad absurdam could possibly work for you?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
One of the refreshing things about SoF is that folks from other traditions sometimes post things I've been thinking for most of my life. I always felt there was something really "dodgy" about Calvinism - sometimes because of the strange behaviour of proclaimed Calvinists, but mostly because it just didn't seem to add up.
Unless TULIP is a really gross oversimplification, I'm inclined to agree that it demonstrates some inherent heretical belief in Calvinism for the reasons MT and others have given.
I had always thought Calvinism was a "difficult" expression of Christian faith - it does seem hard to equate it with any understanding of free will and personal choice. However, the errors in Calvin's understandings dont necessarily invalidate sola scriptura.
I also second Psyduck - this is a pretty unusual thread to find in Hell. (Unless all of us non-Calvinists, protestant, catholic and orthodox, are just being allowed some practice time in the place by a multiple personality God who is going to "get us" anyway.)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Thank you Gord, I think you just made me decide I am an unconditional Universalist.I was undecided before.
I can tolerate the idea of some sort of Purgatorial state after death, but I cannot believe that God would create people for the sole purpose of sending them to Hell. The only way I can accept the doctrine of irresistable grace is by being a Universalist.
Well at the risk of sounding like a Roman Catholic
“Not that there’s anything wrong with that” – Seinfeld
since when did we get the power to make or break our own doctrines, depending on whether we like them or not?
If God is loving ruler of his creation, then he really does lovingly rule it. We can’t believe that and then make exceptions for the bits where we’d rather he left us alone.
The idea of resistible grace, whilst still wrong, probably causes less difficulty than universalism. If someone could prove that grace wasn't irresistible, I'd go with Arminianism]
At risk of reproducing the argument from the "What if I'm right" thread (somewhere in Limbo), if Grace is irresistable and God is omniscient and omnipotent then God is personally and directly responsible for every single human he created and that was then sent to hell.
He is therefore responsible for the entirety of hell and through his refusal to bestow grace to many, he is responsible for all the evil on earth.
If I believed in such a God I would have only one moral choice available- to become a Satanist on the grounds that even Lucifer would be an improvement on that evil bastard- he, at least is falliable.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Justinian -- I may not agree with you all the time, but in this case, ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
What would it take to prove to you that grace isn't irresistable? Since you already believe in a monster God who would make people just to send them to Hell, what sort of reductio ad absurdam could possibly work for you?
Mousethief, I reckon you have defined "monster" according to a set of ideas in your own head, realised that the idea of irresistible (sp.) grace fits on the "monster" side of the monster/non-monster definition, and then categorised a God of irresistible grace as fitting fairly and squarely with your previously concocted 'monster' definition.
This is a bit like making yourself God. Monstrous!
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
This is a bit like making yourself God. Monstrous!
No, it's a bit like thinking that YOUR version of God is monstrous. Which I do. Because it is.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
You lot should all lob into the Augustinian Predestination thread in Purgatory and lodge your objections there, where Levor will probably have a go at answering — I'm sort of like Mini-me to his Dr Evil.
Also, you guys are sort of Mini-mes to Ricardus's Dr Evil, and he is a lot smarter than any of you so you get to watch and learn.
In the meantime if I find time for any more cheap shots I'll come back here and 'ave a go.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
You lot should all lob into the Augustinian Predestination thread in Purgatory and lodge your objections there, where Levor will probably have a go at answering — I'm sort of like Mini-me to his Dr Evil.
I don't particularly care to have anything to do with a thread about Augustine.
quote:
Also, you guys are sort of Mini-mes to Ricardus's Dr Evil, and he is a lot smarter than any of you so you get to watch and learn.
Oh! the irony of being told I'm not smart by Gordon Cheng. I shall treasure this moment.
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Calindreams
Shipmate
# 9147
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Posted
Free will is so over rated. Yes, we get to choose what shirt to wear or whether we go to church. But we don't get to choose when or where we are born, when or how we die. So many things in our lives are pre-destined (or at least not up to us). So maybe in some way it's right that only some are called to the Christian gospel. But called to what? I think it's being called to spread good news.
To save those who are unwilling to be saved does not mean that God is abusing our rights to free will, just as grabbing a drowning person out of a lake before you've asked them if they want to be saved doesn't.
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Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore
Posts: 665 | From: Birmingham, England | Registered: Mar 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Calindreams:
Free will is so over rated.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
Also, you guys are sort of Mini-mes to Ricardus's Dr Evil, and he is a lot smarter than any of you so you get to watch and learn.
Oh! the irony of being told I'm not smart by Gordon Cheng. I shall treasure this moment.
No, no, Mousethief. As I said on the other thread, you seem to have a real problem picking irony. This was not it.
Tell you what, every time there is irony I will make sure to have a little m in bold, just for you. Meaning "This is irony, no response required from you, Mousethief."
I reckon if this system works there will be several hundred posters who will start using it, and it is going to make your life so much easier. Everyone's a winner! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
As I have pointed out before, Gordon, but you were too stupid to learn from it, if you want something to be recognized as irony you should make it FUNNY. Irony, supposedly, is a form of humour.
And I'm also sorry that you think you can dictate which of your statements in Hell is responded to and which isn't. Pull your head out of your anus and smell the coffee. You're losing. Go play somewhere else.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I don't particularly care to have anything to do with a thread about Augustine.
It's disguised as a thread about St Augustine, but it's really about Calvinism. With about four people on it . And lots of lovely long posts.
(And why does St Augustine seem to be the only Father that Protestants like, and the only one the Orthodox don't?)
quote:
Also, you guys are sort of Mini-mes to Ricardus's Dr Evil, and he is a lot smarter than any of you so you get to watch and learn.
You're not. I'm not. You don't.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
And why does St Augustine seem to be the only Father that Protestants like,
Because he was a Calvinist.
quote:
and the only one the Orthodox don't?)
Because he was a Calvinist.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
To insist that he must limit himself in this area means that we make ourselves God, as we can dictate the terms of our salvation to him.
Surely that argument eliminates any doctrine about salvation whatsoever?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think we're still needing an answer from you MT (or anyone) as to why God must allow his grace to be resisted.
To insist that he must limit himself in this area means that we make ourselves God, as we can dictate the terms of our salvation to him.
I don't see how that follows. The terms of our salvation are, accept the offer of salvation from God. How can we dictate terms? We can either accept, or not accept.
As for saying God *must* do this or that -- the only thing God *must* do is act in accord with Her nature. If you think it is accord with Her nature to create people with no chance of being saved just to send them to Hell to suffer for all eternity, then you are clearly thinking about a different God than I am.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
As for saying God *must* do this or that -- the only thing God *must* do is act in accord with Her nature. If you think it is accord with Her nature to create people with no chance of being saved just to send them to Hell to suffer for all eternity, then you are clearly thinking about a different God than I am.
Well, I am not going to be as confident in my assertions as that. But the only way you would get to my view would be by reading the Bible — sola scriptura — if it was up to me — sola gordonii — there's no way that I would invent a God like the Jesus whom the Bible describes.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Are you going to answer the first half of my post?
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
Sorry, MT, it is a good and thought provoking question and I actually needed more than 30 seconds to respond. It's broader than just salvation. (I can't believe I just said that). It has to do with the very nature of God as he is in himself. If Jesus really is Lord, as we confess, then he may choose to make his grace irresistible. As the beneficiaries of that grace, we have nothing to complain of if that grace proves to be something we can't stand against.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
If Jesus really is Lord, as we confess, then he may choose to make his grace irresistible. As the beneficiaries of that grace, we have nothing to complain of if that grace proves to be something we can't stand against.
He may, yes. But does he? Is that in keeping with what we know about his character?
But our complaint would be not for ourselves, but for loved ones who were lost. Why should we love them more than God? But if we wish them to be saved, and He doesn't allow it, then it is seemingly the case that we love them more than He. Which is absurd.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
To insist that he must limit himself in this area means that we make ourselves God, as we can dictate the terms of our salvation to him.
Surely that argument eliminates any doctrine about salvation whatsoever?
Yes, quite right. If we were God, we wouldn't have to argue about whether we get saved or not.
It's an academic question though, isn't it?
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
See, one of the reasons I cling to the Jesus of the Bible is that his existence alone speaks of a God who is relentless in pursuit--a God who was not content to let us wander on our merry way toward self-and-ohter destruction, but got down in the dirt with us. Hisdescription of God is that of a woman who sweeps every last damn corner of her house till she finds that damn coin, a shepherd who searches high and low till he finds that damn sheep, a father who twiddles his thumbs for a couple decades while his runaway son takes his sweet time deciding that maybe he'd be better off home, then races to mee him before he has even offered a grovelling apology.
That is the God that Jesus preached. Anything that tells me that God is anything less than relentless and unstoppable in pursuing the soul is in direct conflict to the idea of God that it seem to me he wants me to have.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Sorry, I was responding to this:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
if it was up to me — sola gordonii — there's no way that I would invent a God like the Jesus whom the Bible describes.
Man, this is an active thread.
[ 24. April 2005, 23:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
I think of the two options I don't believe — universalism and arminianism — universalism has the appeal of being logically consistent and consistent with the character of the Jesus described in the parables Kelly refers to.
I don't think the Bible excludes the option of hell as being almost empty (Judas is certainly there, and there is more than one person there, as I read the Bible). It is a question which out of love for my friends and relatives who don't believe in Jesus and have died, I would like to remain agnostic about.
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Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think of the two options I don't believe — universalism and arminianism
Orthodoxy isn't Arminian. May I humbly suggest you do a little more reading about this topic?
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Calindreams:
Free will is so over rated. Yes, we get to choose what shirt to wear or whether we go to church. But we don't get to choose when or where we are born, when or how we die. So many things in our lives are pre-destined (or at least not up to us). So maybe in some way it's right that only some are called to the Christian gospel. But called to what? I think it's being called to spread good news.
To save those who are unwilling to be saved does not mean that God is abusing our rights to free will, just as grabbing a drowning person out of a lake before you've asked them if they want to be saved doesn't.
I can buy the pre-destination as expressed in the fact that we don't choose the time or circumstances of our birth and pretty good chunks of the rest of our life. (To me, that is what the Buddhist "Life is suffering" is talking about.)
But when the only escape/salvation is to be lucky enough to be born into a single lifetime where you happen to believe that Christianity is the One True Path, then yeah, God starts looking a bit uncaring. And when it gets narrowed down to believing in a particular brand of Christianity, I can only throw up my hands and exclaim "How dare you mere mortals presume to limit God in such a way!".
Let me re-emphasize an important point: "where you happen to believe that Christianity is the One True Path". Some of us just aren't cut out to be True Believers, even though many doubters suffer severe spiritual and emotional pain.
What I hear from the Calvinists (as I understand them) is that my innate scepticism, a trait I seem to have been born with, condemns me to an eternal Hell, since I don't accept Jesus as the only means of God's salvation.
Sorry, but I'm going to cast my vote with Mousethief: the God who would set up such a system is a monster.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think of the two options I don't believe — universalism and arminianism
Orthodoxy isn't Arminian. May I humbly suggest you do a little more reading about this topic?
I don't think he weas necessarily relating Arminism to Orthodoxy, I think he was just using it as an example of something he disagreed with.
Right, Gord?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Um, Kell, he said there were TWO options he doesn't believe. And he's wrong. There are more than two.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Ok, the way it read, I thought you were assuming he was taking a shot at Orthodoxy.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Glad we cleared that up.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Wasn't hard to do.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If only more disagreements in Hell were so easily sorted.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I just hate letting him have the last word.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
No fear, Kell.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Demas*
Shipmate
# 7147
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Posted
Mousethief, on the previous page I set out three options I labelled 'universalism', 'arminian/weslyan' and 'calvinist'.
If Orthodoxy is a fourth option, could you briefly describe it so that it fits in the list?
If not, which option best describes it?
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Hamburger (note beetroot, pineapple, bacon and egg)
Posts: 543 | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Of the 3 you listed we're closest to Arminian/Wesleyanism.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think of the two options I don't believe — universalism and arminianism
Orthodoxy isn't Arminian. May I humbly suggest you do a little more reading about this topic?
I don't think he weas necessarily relating Arminism to Orthodoxy, I think he was just using it as an example of something he disagreed with.
Right, Gord?
Thassit.
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think we're still needing an answer from you MT (or anyone) as to why God must allow his grace to be resisted.
To insist that he must limit himself in this area means that we make ourselves God, as we can dictate the terms of our salvation to him.
No, God still sets the terms. That is the nature of a covenant. (Hint: We are the weaker party in the covenant.)
Just because God doesn't do something does not mean God is not capable of doing something. Just because God can do something does not mean God will do something.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I think of the two options I don't believe — universalism and arminianism
Orthodoxy isn't Arminian. May I humbly suggest you do a little more reading about this topic?
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Of the 3 you listed we're closest to Arminian/Wesleyanism.
So which is it then? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
OK not an entitely fair question, as you said 'close' not the same as, but it would be useful to hear about the differences.
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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