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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is Mormonism true?
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I believe the BoM to be a hoax and Joseph Smith to be a pure charlatan who invented a religion as a way to get money, power, and sex. I consider the LDS church to be a rather pernicious organization that preaches false doctrine and oppresses many of its members. That, however, does not prevent any individual Mormon from being a Christian, if they are following Christ as best they can, according to the light they have been given.
Timothy
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sienna:
MormonBoy wrote:
quote:
In addition the Third Article of Faith states that:
quote:
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
I want to make sure I'm understanding this properly. Does the Mormon faith hold that "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" is required in addition to grace to achieve salvation, that grace alone is not sufficient? Also, what precisely is included in the "Gospel"? Would it encompass the BoM?
There is one fundamental difference between why Mormons follow the ordinances and laws of the Gospel, and why other Christian groups do. This is due to the fact that the ultimate aim of every member of the LDS church is to reach EXALTATION, which succeeds SALVATION. Here are the two distinctions:
1)SALVATION
ALL are saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ. People who do not accept the Gospel at all, will go to the Terrestrial Kingdom. People who accept the Gospel but don't accept it in it's fulness (ie: other Christians) will go to the Tellestial Kingdom. Endowed, sealed (married) and faithful members of the ever growing church will go to the Celestial Kingdom.
There are only a few who won't be saved. The "Sons of Perdition." - These are people who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. Some members of the Church also say that murder (very serious murder) without repentance, would class that person as a Son of Perdition.
2. Exaltation
Exaltation is "becoming more like unto God" in the Celestial Kingdom (see first point.) Exaltation is achieved by following the ordinances and laws of the RESTORED Gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. To be eligable for Celestial glory, one must:
*Be endowed (a ceremony of instruction which gives information, signs, tokens to enter the Celestial Kingdom)
*Be sealed to an eternal partner (married for all time and eternity)
*Be a faithful keeper of all the commandments revealed in the last dispensation (the latter days.)
Therefore, in answer to your observations, the reason why Mormons adhere to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel is to achieve exaltation, to live with their eternal partner (and family) forever in the Celestial Kingdom, with the Father. The Earth will be established as the Celestial Kingdom. All will be saved, except the Son of Perdition.
Scriptures to support this are:
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Sienna you asked:
quote:
I want to make sure I'm understanding this properly. Does the Mormon faith hold that "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" is required in addition to grace to achieve salvation, that grace alone is not sufficient? Also, what precisely is included in the "Gospel"? Would it encompass the BoM?
The short answer is yes. However I feel I must flesh that out just a bit. We are required to do more than just believe in Christ to have the Atonement fully effective in our lives. It is incumbent upon us to live the Gospel, to follow James' admonition (James 1:22)
quote:
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
I have always found it interesting that James felt that those who feel they only need to hear the word and do nothing are deceiving themselves.
Paul was pretty clear on this as well in his epistle to the Romans. In the 6th verse he states:
quote:
(God) will render to every man according to his deeds:
and after several verses describing the rewards of those that do good and those that do evil he has this to say in verse 13:
quote:
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
So both James and Paul felt that there are some actions that we must take in this life to be justified before God.
James though, in the second chapter of his Epistle is pretty clear that it is through a combination of a fervent faith in Christ and an active attempt on our part to live the Gospel that we receive our justification: James 2:14-26
quote:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So as I have said before we follow the Bible literally and completely and as such, the short answer to your question once more is yes, we do feel that "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" is required in addition to grace to be fully justified.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Timothy, I just don't know what to say to that. I appreciate your belief that I may be a Christian, but your attack, loosely disguised as an editorial preface is, at the least, confusing:
You said
quote:
I believe the BoM to be a hoax and Joseph Smith to be a pure charlatan who invented a religion as a way to get money, power, and sex. I consider the LDS church to be a rather pernicious organization that preaches false doctrine and oppresses many of its members.
You have every right to your opinion, and can believe what you want about the Book of Mormon and LDS Doctrine, (I strongly disagree with you of course but it is your opinion and you are welcome to it) however your blatant mischaracterization of Joseph Smith's character and your assertion that the Churh oppresses many of its members could not be further from the truth. In the interest of not making this a personal response, but a response to the issue that you raise (in adherence to the ten commandments) and as I know that you are not alone in your beliefs, I will say that the points you made display an ignorance (in the strict definition of the word) of the facts.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Siena
Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574
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Posted
Thanks to you both for your responses. However, you missed a question. For the LDS, what constitutes "the Gospel" - specifically, which writings does it include?
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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson
Posts: 709 | From: San Diego, California, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
We use as Scripture the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. These four books make up the Standard Works of the Church. They can be found online here. We use them each and none takes precedence over the other. They work together and compliment each other to teach us the truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Mormon Boy wrote:
I will say that the points you made display an ignorance (in the strict definition of the word) of the facts.
Well, on that we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the falsity of the "history" in the BoM has been demostrated beyond any reasonable doubt, as has the falsity of Joseph Smith's claim to have translated it from the nonexistent language "Reformed Egyptian." His personal character, including his sexual behavior, has been well documented (in large part by Mormon scholars) and the only way to put a positive spin on it is to assume that he was indeed a prophet who was commanded by God to behave in ways that most people, then and now, would find reprehensible. Since I find that assumption incredible, I see it differently. As for the LDS church today--I live among Mormons, many of whom I like and respect, and I hear stories from my clients of stuff that I consider oppressive and even sometimes abusive. That is a matter of interpretation, and no doubt there is another way of looking at it--just not one that makes sense to me.
I don't propose to argue about the facts--that's been done in detail on the old thread, better than I could, and to some extent on this one. That wasn't the point of my post anyway--it was, rather, to state that being a member of an apostate church doesn't necessarily make one an apostate.
Timothy
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
That wasn't the point of my post anyway--it was, rather, to state that being a member of an apostate church doesn't necessarily make one an apostate.
Then it was a point that was made in an unnecessarily inflammatory way.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
[ 13. May 2005, 07:17: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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boppysbud
Shipmate
# 4588
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Posted
There are many and vast differences between Christianity and mormonism.
The articles of faith look pretty Christian on the surface, but what the mormons do not tell us is that they redefine their terms to be very different from the way Christians define those terms.
The mormon articles say they "Beleive in God the Eternal Father", but what they don't tell you is that they don't believe in God they same way or in the same God as Christians. The mormon "God" is just another human being complete with a human body of "flesh and bone" who worked his way up to being a "God". They beleive that "heavenly Father" (a term used much more often than God between mormons) is our literal Father having conceived our "prexistent souls" by sexual intercourse with one of God's wifes "heavenly mothers".
The articles say they believe in his Son, Jesus Christ, but what they don't tell you is that we are all chidren of God in the same way. Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers, they also disbeleive in the Virgin Birth but that Jesus was conceived by sexual intercourse between "heavenly father" and Mary.
Mormons say that men (what about women?) may be saved by obedience to the commands and ordinances of their gospel, but what they don't tell you is that they have a different gospel (didn't St Paul say something about people preaching a different gospel?). The LDS church has a different definition of saved as well, to mormons saved means ressurected only and every one will be "saved". It is "exhaltation" that matters to the mormon not their version of "salvation".
Mormons reject the Trinity and teach three completely seperate "gods" in their "godhead".
Mormons teach that Jesus is Jehovah (a made up nonsense word) the God of the Old Testament.
If this oddball junk is "Christian" then I am the Pope, the Dalai Lama, and the Archbishop of Canterbury all at once.
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Posts: 255 | From: High Desert, West Texas, USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by boppysbud:
There are many and vast differences between Christianity and mormonism.
The articles of faith look pretty Christian on the surface, but what the mormons do not tell us is that they redefine their terms to be very different from the way Christians define those terms.
The mormon articles say they "Beleive in God the Eternal Father", but what they don't tell you is that they don't believe in God they same way or in the same God as Christians. The mormon "God" is just another human being complete with a human body of "flesh and bone" who worked his way up to being a "God". They beleive that "heavenly Father" (a term used much more often than God between mormons) is our literal Father having conceived our "prexistent souls" by sexual intercourse with one of God's wifes "heavenly mothers".
All of what you have stated is true, apart from the idea that we see God as something(one) different from the way mainstream Christians do. Perhaps by the above quote you are suggesting that we assert a less-divine nature to God? This is simply not true. Heavenly Father is the supreme member of the Godhead, a King, a "tabernacle of Holiness".
quote:
The articles say they believe in his Son, Jesus Christ, but what they don't tell you is that we are all chidren of God in the same way. Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers, they also disbeleive in the Virgin Birth but that Jesus was conceived by sexual intercourse between "heavenly father" and Mary.
This is a major difference between "Mormonism" and mainstream Christianity. Not only do we believe that God is sublimely divine, but He is also our literal Father. Not only do we have a divine connection with the Father, we have an intimate relationship with Him. He is our literal Father. Jesus Christ is our older brother - the first born in the Spirit world. It is not a metaphorical phrase when Jesus instructs us to pray with the words "Our Father..." He is a real Father. This concept adds only to the love and affection one feels for God when one realises that... I am a child of God.
quote:
Mormons say that men (what about women?) may be saved by obedience to the commands and ordinances of their gospel, but what they don't tell you is that they have a different gospel (didn't St Paul say something about people preaching a different gospel?). The LDS church has a different definition of saved as well, to mormons saved means ressurected only and every one will be "saved". It is "exhaltation" that matters to the mormon not their version of "salvation".
Firstly... women are equal with men. Men and women just have different responsibility. We are all children of God. Note that it is a misconception people have when they think that "Mormon" women cannot be saved without being married to a man. Marriage is obligatory, however men and women are no different when it comes to exaltation. We read in D&C 131v2:
And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3And if HE does not, HE cannot obtain it.
NB also:
Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
Therefore, when they are out of the world, they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. D&C 132:15-16
Mormons reject the Trinity and teach three completely seperate "gods" in their "godhead".
We've spoke about this a lot. But such "heresies" are not new to the planet.
quote:
Mormons teach that Jesus is Jehovah (a made up nonsense word) the God of the Old Testament.[/b]
True... but how you think "Jehovah" is a made up nonsense word I don't know.
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We have no less an intimate relationship with Our Father. The fact that we don't have a linear descendent relationship based on a god or fallen angel having sex with an animal - how frightfully Greek - indeed makes it MORE highly intimate.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
We use as Scripture the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. These four books make up the Standard Works of the Church. They can be found online here. We use them each and none takes precedence over the other. They work together and compliment each other to teach us the truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
This is true. Although having said this, a common notion within the church reveals the sayin: "The Book of Mormon is the most correct book of any found on the Earth. It is the key-stone of our religion."
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Timothy wrote:
quote:
the falsity of the "history" in the BoM has been demostrated beyond any reasonable doubt
I assume that this has been heard somewhere else and is being repeated here because you want to believe it is true, and you don't think it can be challenged because you have seen it go unchallenged so many times. But the fact of the matter is that there is ample anthropological and archological evidence that the Book of Mormon is an accurate record.
He then said:
quote:
as has the falsity of Joseph Smith's claim to have translated it from the nonexistent language "Reformed Egyptian."
There is no evidence that he didn't translate the record or that that record was written in a language other than Reformed Egyptian or that said language didn't exist. Unless someone is claiming to know every name for every language that every group of people ever used in the history of the world.
He went on to say:
quote:
His (Joseph's) personal character, including his sexual behavior, has been well documented (in large part by Mormon scholars)
Yes his behavior and personality have been well documented. Both by "Mormon Scholars" and more importantly, those who knew him personally both followers and not. And at no point did Joseph Smith ever act in a way that was contrary to the Laws of God. He was a man full of integrity and fidelity and though he was slandered, libeled and impugned for most of his life, and for all of the time since, he stayed true to the Faith and died as a martyr for Jesus Christ. There is nothing in his history or character that is anything less than honorable, and he would be fine example for anyone to pattern their life after, in his day or in ours.
He also says:
quote:
I hear stories from my clients of stuff that I consider oppressive and even sometimes abusive. That is a matter of interpretation, and no doubt there is another way of looking at it--
I know full well that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doesn't have any more perfect people in it than any other church, which is to say, none. And because of that, I have seen people make mistakes and occasionally do or say something to offend someone else, but the whole purpose of the entirety of Church Doctrine and Church policy from the actions of the Church leadership in Salt Lake City to the lessons taught each week in Sunday School's around the world is to bring souls to Christ. There is no room in that for oppression or for abuse. So whatever stories you have heard, I am sure that there is definitely another (and more objective) way of looking at it.
And finally:
quote:
I don't propose to argue about the facts
Don't make untrue inflammatory statements if you don't want them responded to.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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plaintif cry
Apprentice
# 9271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
Plaintiff, what do you mean by:
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there are more principalities and powers at work in the picture. Jesus warns of those who will claim to be him. The deceptions are deep and wide.
I have obviously heard lots of these claims, but I am wondering what specifically it is to which you are referring.
I don't think this has any concequence with regards to the fallibility of "Mormonism" whatsoever. Since Joseph Smith did not claim to be Jesus, but only claimed to see Him. This prophecy clearly reveals that people will come testifying that they are Jesus Christ - whereas Prophet Joseph did nothing of the sort.
O.K no consequence in following a prophet who misrepresents the person of Jesus? No consequence in following a religion that has a theological position (as stated in my earlier post and not rebutted!) that is not biblical? What did Jesus mean when people will come saying I am he, there he is? Any biblical scholar or interested party should see that Jesus was saying that he will be misrepresented. He also says, don't believe them. I don't believe that Joseph Smith represents Jesus Christ in any way. With all due respect this makes him a false prophet and LDS a misleading religion. Not intended to be abusive but direct in the way to see orthodoxy in a generous way as the embracing faith of Christ. God Bless you EM and MB, pax and illumin. PC ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I wish I had the answers but I haven't got a clue. I just depend on Jesus as my path from feeling blue.
Posts: 34 | From: newcastle-under-lyme | Registered: Apr 2005
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plaintif cry
Apprentice
# 9271
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Posted
Sorry, I should say that I do not believe the evidence shows JS to represent Jesus in any way. That means that I don't believe that Mormonism is a valid expression of Christian faith. (Lets not be so subjective!)
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I wish I had the answers but I haven't got a clue. I just depend on Jesus as my path from feeling blue.
Posts: 34 | From: newcastle-under-lyme | Registered: Apr 2005
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boppysbud
Shipmate
# 4588
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Posted
This is how "jehovah" is a made-up nonsense word.
The word was invented by the producers of the Authorised Version (JKV) of the Bible. It never existed before the KJV was written. They made it up by combining the consonants of the Hebrew word Yaweh with the vowels of the completely seperate word Adonai. This word exists nowhere in reality.
The reason that they invented this word is that the Jewish people considered the name of God too sacred to pronounce verbally, and started writting it without the vowel pointers used in Hebrew. The vowels were lost over the millenia, and even Yahweh is at best an educated guess. To this day Jews consider the name of God too sacred to pronounce (they usually call God Hashem) or to write. Jewish people (and "messianic Jews") do not write God, they write G-d since the paper with God written or typed on it could possibly be destoyed which would be sacrilege.
The words for the various names of God are all refering to God the Father. They are not different words for different Gods as the mormons would have us beleive.
And yes Moroni the mormon "heavenly father" is completely different from the God of Christianity. Christians beleive that God has always been God (never a human being), is changeless (no "eternal progression", has no body, and is one, not three or many. I am aware that mormons get around this by saying they only worship one "god" but the fact is not many how many "gods" you worship, you beleive in the existence of many. Christians are monotheists beleiving in one God, mormons are polytheists or panentheists believing in many "gods".
Yeah sure mormons are Christians.
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Posts: 255 | From: High Desert, West Texas, USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Mormon Boy, may I suggest you continue reading Paul's letter to the Romans when he says (paraphrase) ...for we hold that we are saved by grace apart from works of the law.
This is most certainly true!
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Boppysbud, you had plenty of mischaracterizations in your rant. Unfortunately I only have time to respond to a few.
First, there is no official Church Doctrine on the nature of God before we knew him. There has been plenty of speculation, but I don't think that that is peculiar to the LDS people.
There is no official Church Doctrine on the way that we became God's Children or the existance of a Heavenly Mother.
We do teach that we are all God's children and that we all lived together with Him before this Earth was formed. This included Jesus, who was our oldest brother and Lucifer. Jesus took upon himself the role of our Saviour and Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast out.
One thing that I don't understand, even though I have heard it many times, is how anyone can say that we deny the Virgin Birth. This is a blatant and egregious falsehood. There is nothing in Church Doctrine that teaches anything other than that Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born. I have seen the Virgin Birth denied a number of times in these forums, but never by any one or any teaching in the LDS church.
We adhere to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in the Holy Scriptures. As I said earlier this includes the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and the Bible. You will not find anything in the other three that is contrary to the Gospel in the Bible, they serve to compliment each other and work together to give a fuller understanding of God's Word.
If the Trinity is different than what is taught in the Bible (which I understand it is) then yes we don't adhere to that belief.
Jehovah is not a made up nonsense word, you might want to check the Old Testament as He is listed there any number of times, you might also want to take note of the titles He is given such as Lord, Lord God Almighty, The Most High, etc.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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boppysbud
Shipmate
# 4588
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Posted
Mormon Boy has said:
"But the fact of the matter is that there is ample anthropological and archological evidence that the Book of Mormon is an accurate record."
Then post some of your "ample anthropological and archological (sic) evidence" for the BOM. Being sure to include citations for it. I am especially interested in how thousand of ancient Jews immigrated to the Americas, and had major wars, built large cities without leaving a trace of evidence. You can even quote FAIR and FARMS as long as you identify your sources clearly.
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Posts: 255 | From: High Desert, West Texas, USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Organmeister, I agree completely that we are dependant on the Grace we receive through the atonement of Christ for our Eternal Salvation. However I don't think that a responsible person can read the Bible and feel that even though it is repleat with commandments and directives and guides for how we should live our lives and example after example of the blessings given to those who do good and the condemnation that falls on those who do not and even the explanations given by Paul and James, I don't see how that responsible person could then come to the conclusion that there is no requirement on their part to act.
Jesus said, "Come follow me" not y'all hang out there on the couch and I will take care of everything.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by boppysbud:
This is how "jehovah" is a made-up nonsense word.
The word was invented by the producers of the Authorised Version (JKV) of the Bible. It never existed before the KJV was written. They made it up by combining the consonants of the Hebrew word Yaweh with the vowels of the completely seperate word Adonai. This word exists nowhere in reality.
You are correct in as far as your observation that it is impossible for the word "Jehovah" to be the correct form from its derivatives. There is a good possibility that "Jehovah" is the actual name we can derive from yud-hey-vav-heh. There's MORE of a chance, infact that the name of God is JEHOVAH over YAHWEH. Why?:
1)Looking at other rules of gramma and formation of words in the original text of the Old Testament, we can see that "koriq gadol" (which is the first vowel of the yud) is used in the prefix of most names. There are save few which don't.
2)The reflexive "vav" cannot transcend the post-vowel if followed by a "hey" since the possibility of notation could lead to a "qametz gadol" pronunciation which wasn't a farmiliar sound (as was not the breviation "waw") in Old Testament Hebrew.
There is a definitely *possibility* with regards to non-Mormons that the name of YHWH could be pronounced as Jehovah. I emphasize: possibility.
It is only because of latter-day revelation, which asserts certainty on our part (personally) that we confidently use the name of Jehovah.
quote:
The reason that they invented this word is that the Jewish people considered the name of God too sacred to pronounce verbally, and started writting it without the vowel pointers used in Hebrew. The vowels were lost over the millenia, and even Yahweh is at best an educated guess. To this day Jews consider the name of God too sacred to pronounce (they usually call God Hashem) or to write. Jewish people (and "messianic Jews") do not write God, they write G-d since the paper with God written or typed on it could possibly be destoyed which would be sacrilege.
We are quite farmiliar with this. Infact there is a complete other thread with lots of helpful commentary on this very subject. It should be emphasised however that the word "Hashem" which means "the name" was not in use till the talmudic period because it was at this time that it was neccessary particularly to write the name of God in an informal fashion. Early Jews simply used the word "Adonai" but eventually even this name became too holy for general use.
quote:
The words for the various names of God are all refering to God the Father. They are not different words for different Gods as the mormons would have us beleive.
As I stated in the other thread (can't remember what it's called, but focused on the name of God), there are modern day scholars who think that differnt portions of the bible were written bu different authors because of the different names used strategically and in pattern. Very few times is the term "YHWH Elohim" used in succession in comparison to just seeing the names in the singular. This supports our argument as an alternative to the Yahwist theory that the different names do infact denote different members of the Godhead.
quote:
And yes Moroni the mormon "heavenly father" is completely different from the God of Christianity.
I should hope so. That's the whole point of Mormonism!
quote:
Christians beleive that God has always been God (never a human being), is changeless (no "eternal progression", has no body, and is one, not three or many. I am aware that mormons get around this by saying they only worship one "god" but the fact is not many how many "gods" you worship, you beleive in the existence of many. Christians are monotheists beleiving in one God, mormons are polytheists or panentheists believing in many "gods".
Let me draw your attention to the Old Testament Commandments! Nowhere in the Bible does God say there are NO other Gods! Some may even be lead to believe that the language He used when giving the commandments supports the henotheistic theory. Read:
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
This doesn't say there don't EXIST any gods! It says not to have any gods before HIM. And we don't! Can I also point out, an immensely important thing we stumble upon here. The word used for "Gods" in the above quote, is ELOHIM, the name given to "God" in Genesis 1 - which we interpret as the "Gods" as is grammatically possible.
quote:
Yeah sure mormons are Christians.
If being a Christian means worshipping a false representation of the true God, having statues in churches, and missing a big gap from the gospel, then I don't want to be any part of it! Whether you call us Christians or not is absolutely irrelevant to us. The whole point of Mormonism is NOT to have lots in common with "Christianity" since we believe other churches have apostasized. Being classed as the same group as such other groups would defeat the object of Mormonism respectively.
For me... I am a Christian in the dictionary term, but I am certainly not a Christian in the traditional interpretation of the word.
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Mormon Boy, I see you need no help defending orthodoxy, so I'll not argue about what the gospel of Christ really is.
I'd like however to add a few things to what you wrote, so that one could have a complete understanding of what Christians think.
You say that we are healed by His bruises, and you are right.
I would like to add that His grace is independent of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. He gives His gifts abundantly to all people through the created world. From the very beginning, His gifts are given to everybody for free.
I would also like to add that although the teacher of that strange idea taught that Christ's Revelation to John is not to be accepted as inspired by Him, for it showed clearly that the dead in Christ are blessed, for their works follow them, and that all people will be judged by their works, almost everyone now accepts the book as inspired by God. It seems really odd to me, that they keep teaching something that is in contradiction to the book itself. People, we know for sure that everybody will be judged by his works, why should we have to re-run the debate on whether the works are important or not?
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Could we take a short break from arguing Mormon theology........I'd really like to know how it is that Mormonism has become such a fast growing belief system. What is the attraction? Why is it that mainstream Protestantism struggles to hold its own while Mormonism seems to flourish?
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Could we take a short break from arguing Mormon theology........I'd really like to know how it is that Mormonism has become such a fast growing belief system. What is the attraction? Why is it that mainstream Protestantism struggles to hold its own while Mormonism seems to flourish?
Here are a few things I think attract people to the church:
1)The promise the families can be together forever - not untill "death do we part."
2)A strict alternative lifestyle
3)Sometimes pure curiosity of the Temple - ie: join just to see what the Temple is like.
4)If you're partner is a Mormon and you want to get married, there's more of a chance that you will marry in the Temple, therefore you will have to be a baptized member for atleast one year.
As you can see... these are practical, more tangible reasons. I've not listed the more personal reasons such as a witness to the book of Mormon because I said in the other post that I would give objective posts from hereon in!
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
i'm still waiting to see mormons boys ample evidence of any truth to the book of mormon. because as far as i'm concerned, thats where it all falls apart.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Could we take a short break from arguing Mormon theology........I'd really like to know how it is that Mormonism has become such a fast growing belief system. What is the attraction? Why is it that mainstream Protestantism struggles to hold its own while Mormonism seems to flourish?
Believe it or not, people sometimes convert because the religion they were raised in was tougher than Mormonism. One person I know that was raised a Catholic in South America, is one that I know of.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
...Here are a few things I think attract people to the church:
1)The promise the families can be together forever - not untill "death do we part."
The same for a Christian family. Except Christians don't baptize the dead to achieve this goal.
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
2)A strict alternative lifestyle
Like conservative Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
3)Sometimes pure curiosity of the Temple - ie: join just to see what the Temple is like.
Interesting. But you don't like it if they try to leave later. Sounds like a high price to pay for curiosity.
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
4)If you're partner is a Mormon and you want to get married, there's more of a chance that you will marry in the Temple, therefore you will have to be a baptized member for atleast one year.
Coercion. Good. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
sorry, just reread my post, i do of course mean "mormon boy's assertion", not "mormons boys"
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Mad Geo, how is South American Catholicism "tougher" than Mormonism? Mormonism seems very strict, very straight-laced, works oriented, no gin, no cigarettes, no even coffee or tea. It also seems to require an unquestioning belief in what seems to me like 19th century home-made science fiction (Sorry about that, Mormon Boy and Moroni). At least South American Catholics can flavor their Catholicism with a touch of voodoo and/or a soupcon of Candomble.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
I truly don't know. ALl I know is this friend of mine that was a catholic converted as a youngish girl because she saw is as easier than Catholicism. I was stunned too when she told me that. She was clearly a believer so I'm sure she was impressed with the message as well.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I truly don't know. ALl I know is this friend of mine that was a catholic converted as a youngish girl because she saw is as easier than Catholicism. I was stunned too when she told me that. She was clearly a believer so I'm sure she was impressed with the message as well.
Youth find the LDS church VERY interesting. There's many, many dances scattered over weeks of the month, and it's a fabulous place to meet new friends. Most of the closest people to my eldest son have joined the church, probably just for the social life!
nicolemrw: What kind of evidence were you looking for?Physical? Theological? Scriptural? It's too broad a subject to discuss all in one post.
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
mormon boy is quoted above as saying:
quote:
But the fact of the matter is that there is ample anthropological and archological evidence that the Book of Mormon is an accurate record
(mind you, thats what someone else said he said, not a quote from him directly).
i want to know what evidence he was refering to.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Here are a few things I think attract people to the church:
1)The promise the families can be together forever - not untill "death do we part."
2)A strict alternative lifestyle
3)Sometimes pure curiosity of the Temple - ie: join just to see what the Temple is like.
4)If you're partner is a Mormon and you want to get married, there's more of a chance that you will marry in the Temple, therefore you will have to be a baptized member for atleast one year.
Much the same as the common reasons for gpoing to Christianities older daughter religion, Islam. (Though of course theologically LDS is further from Christianity than Islam is) Especially the bit about the strict lifestyle. Lots of people seem to like having firm rules of behaviour (even if they break them!)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
quote: Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
quote:
That wasn't the point of my post anyway--it was, rather, to state that being a member of an apostate church doesn't necessarily make one an apostate.
Then it was a point that was made in an unnecessarily inflammatory way.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
I honestly don't see how it's more imflammatory than telling Mormons that they are not Christians, which was the burden of the posts I was responding to. I was trying to be at least semi-conciliatory, in fact, but obviously I failed, so I apologize.
Timothy
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Nicole, that is a quote from me directly. And I stand by it. Unfortunately Friday is my busiest day of the week, and I have not been able to put together a decent list of links yet, but it is coming.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
please make it unbiased links if possible.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Organmeister, I think the obvious answer to your question is that those people find something that they are looking for in the Church.
Of course it is my belief that what they find is the Truth and the peace that comes through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But I know that not everyone here shares that opinion ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I think that any Church that wants to duplicate our success would do well to try and discover what the something really is that people are finding when they investigate the LDS Church, because as Sharkshooter so abley demonstrated, the "more practical and tangible" things that bring some people in to begin an investigation of the Church are duplicated in plenty of other places, so there has to be something deeper.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Youth find the LDS church VERY interesting. There's many, many dances scattered over weeks of the month, and it's a fabulous place to meet new friends.
Wow! what kind of religion is this that promotes dancing but disallows tea and coffee? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) One very different to the one I grew up in, that's all I can say! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 13. May 2005, 19:56: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Youth find the LDS church VERY interesting. There's many, many dances scattered over weeks of the month, and it's a fabulous place to meet new friends.
Wow! what kind of religion is this that promotes dancing but disallows tea and coffee? One very different to the one I grew up in, that's all I can say!
Yea, the world has really gone astray these days
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Marriage is obligatory, however men and women are no different when it comes to exaltation. We read in D&C 131v2:
And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3And if HE does not, HE cannot obtain it.
NB also:
Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
Therefore, when they are out of the world, they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. D&C 132:15-16
I've just read through this thread with interest, and although I don't have enough theological knowledge to involve myself with it deeply, I'd like if I may to barge in to ask a couple of questions the above raises in my mind. Hope that's OK with everyone.
Firstly, consider the case of a child who dies before reaching marriageable age. Is that child eternally barred from achieving exaltation because through no fault of their own they never had the chance to marry? Or similarly, consider a person without the mental capacity to contract a marriage with full understanding. Is that person barred from the celestial kingdom because they were never able to marry?
Secondly, the last paragraph above seems to me to imply that people who have married other than through the LDS are destined in eternity to be the servants of those who do have an acceptable marriage. Have I got that right?
These are not rhetorical questions, nor am I trying to be inflammatory in any way, but I'd appreciate it if someone could clarify that for me.
(returns to lurkers' corner)
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Mormon Boy
Shipmate
# 9409
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Posted
Sisterlove, I appreciate your questions and speaking for myself, I welcome all honest questions and reasoned debate. I am not going to quote your whole question again since I am going to try and answer it all at once.
We believe that a marriage performed by someone with the authority to seal for time and all eternity just as was given to Peter (Matt 16:19)
quote:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
is a Gospel Ordnince and, as you read in the scripture that EM quoted, is required of us.
There are many situations where people do not have the oppurtunity to participate in this ordinance, either through lack of an acceptable partner, early death, lack of capacity to get married through a mental or learning disorder or such, or they just never get to hear about the possiblity because of geography or culture or even becuase they lived on the Earth at a time when the oppurtunity was not available.
The ordinance of Baptism has the exact same problem, it is required, but the vast majority of God's children never have the oppurtunity to be Baptized.
It is unfathomable to me that a Heavenly Father that loves His children as much as I know that He loves us would require something of us that He knows many of us will never get the chance to do and then use that against us when we come before him.
To this end, God has provided the ability for us to perform those ordinances in proxy for those who have passed from this life without having done them. As was done in New Testament times as Paul mentioned to the Corinthians (1 Cor 15:29)
quote:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
This is the majority of the work that is done inside an LDS Temple.
As you may know, the LDS Church is one of the world leaders in geneological research. In addition to the work commissioned by the Church, each member is encouraged to research our own families and to use that research to ensure that our own forefathers have the necessary ordinances performed on their behalf.
At no point does this proxy work remove the individual's agency in the matter. They still have the choice to accept or reject the work done for them, so just because your distant cousin has your great grandmother baptized by proxy, that doesn't force her to become "Mormon". That is not what happens and that is not our belief.
So whether a person was never able to be baptized or to marry or a married couple was never able to be Sealed, that oppurtunity will be provided. As I said, I don't believe that a loving Father would have it any other way.
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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not
Posts: 139 | From: Charlotte NC | Registered: Apr 2005
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boppysbud
Shipmate
# 4588
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Could we take a short break from arguing Mormon theology........I'd really like to know how it is that Mormonism has become such a fast growing belief system. What is the attraction? Why is it that mainstream Protestantism struggles to hold its own while Mormonism seems to flourish?
What the mormons here are failing to tell us here is that there is quite the revolving door in the mormon sect. The fact is of all the people they RE-baptise more than half leave within the space of one year. The mormons make it very hard to escape their organisation. There are two ways to escape mormonism. One is by a very humiliating bishop's court resulting in excommunication, the other is by requesting that your name be removed from mormon membership records. This sounds easy, but in fact is very difficult to accomplish and is resisted and delayed to the utmost, the mormons continue to harrass them sending home teachers and others.
So there are millions who are claimed as members by the mormon organisation who have not darkened a mormon chapel doorstep in years. These people just disregard all the mormon bishop's courts and name removal and move on, often to Christian churches. There are many others who are so turned off by mormondom that they become atheists and agnostics. But the mormons still claim them all as members.
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Posts: 255 | From: High Desert, West Texas, USA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Could we take a short break from arguing Mormon theology........I'd really like to know how it is that Mormonism has become such a fast growing belief system. What is the attraction? Why is it that mainstream Protestantism struggles to hold its own while Mormonism seems to flourish?
The problem for "mainstream Protestantism" is that it requires people to think for themselves. Mormonism, like some forms of Christian fundamentalism and certain other religions, lays it all down for you. In fact, thinking for yourself will get you into deep, deep trouble, as many Mormon intellectuals have discovered to their pain.
Mormonism posits that men (no women need apply) can buy their way to godhood. It's very works-based. Do x + y + z, and you'll get your "exaltation." Mormonism has preserved enough of the trappings of genuine Christianity -- and strongly discourages investigation into the true history or facts of the belief system -- so most converts never really learn what they've gotten themselves into. All they know (or think they know) is that they've bought a road map to E-Z salvation.
Oh, yeah, and Family Values for Eternity.
We're getting an unusually obvious look at the system with proselytizers like Elder Moroni and Mormon Boy, reading from their scripts, and checking with their bosses when someone asks something outside the usual. You can be sure that there are folks at higher levels reading over their shoulders, and making sure they stick to the approved answers.
The other thing to remember about Mormonism is that while it's really easy to get in, it's really difficult to get officially out. If you want out, you have to submit to a trial that will leave you excommunicated. It's a humiliating, ugly process, and most people don't bother. So they're officially on the rolls for life, boosting the numbers for the credulous.
As an example: I know an Episcopal priest who was raised Mormon, but converted to Christianity as a teenager. His whole family followed him. But since they never went through excommunication, they're still officially counted as Mormons for the purposes of the hierarchy in Utah.
Rossweisse // thinking is harder, but it pays off
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
please make it unbiased links if possible.
Now that's a loaded and inflammatory statement. This is not Hell.
Just trying to keep things reasonable.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
duo seraphim, i have addressed your post on the thread louise started in the styx.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Ooooh - I would try to get excommunicated if I was a Mormon converting to Christianity, I'm thinking alcohol, electrodes and tea with the bishop! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
It would be a bit of a laugh actually
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Elder Moroni
Shipmate
# 9432
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Ooooh - I would try to get excommunicated if I was a Mormon converting to Christianity, I'm thinking alcohol, electrodes and tea with the bishop!
It would be a bit of a laugh actually
-103
It isn't hard to disfellowship yourself from the church at all. It's true, if you want your name taken from the records, you have to go to a disciplinary hearing. But if you fail to do that, and you express your requirements in writing, the church (by law) must destroy your personal records. The church, however will NEVER destroy your information with regards to the church - ie: temple ordinances, baptism, name etc.
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Mo.
Posts: 215 | From: Ashton Stake | Registered: May 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
Marriage is obligatory...
So you don't believe that people can be called to celibate, single life?
[ 15. May 2005, 02:17: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I know one ex-Mormon (he's now a Unitarian) who actually went through the whole process of getting officially removed from the membership rolls (most don't bother). It took him two years (and a lot of intense bureaucracy) to get a letter from the church stating "You are no longer a member of the Church of LDS."
Timothy
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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plaintif cry
Apprentice
# 9271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
If being a Christian means worshipping a false representation of the true God, having statues in churches, and missing a big gap from the gospel, then I don't want to be any part of it! Whether you call us Christians or not is absolutely irrelevant to us. The whole point of Mormonism is NOT to have lots in common with "Christianity" since we believe other churches have apostasized. Being classed as the same group as such other groups would defeat the object of Mormonism respectively.
For me... I am a Christian in the dictionary term, but I am certainly not a Christian in the traditional interpretation of the word.
I do think this has shown your colours pinned to the mast EM. It goes something like this "We are Christian and you lot (apostates) aren't!" You claim misunderstanding and persecution for LDS beliefs by the apostate church. Yet consistently these beliefs fall down when measured against the "traditional" Christian scripture. When asked to answer why it is that Mormon credibility has no substance (archeology, anthropology and theology) outside of the BoM, Mormon literature and scholarship you are strangely silent (although you have posted a great deal). In the Christian world at large the claim to have the truth and all others to be apostate has usually one conclusion. Far from not being a traditional kind of Christianity (there are many whose Christianity ain't traditional but still quantifiably orthodox), Mormonism stands out as a Cult. This is not said to condmen or berate. It is said to ask you to weigh up LDS in the light of the fullest gospel (- JS, BoM and LDS Doctrine). GBY ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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I wish I had the answers but I haven't got a clue. I just depend on Jesus as my path from feeling blue.
Posts: 34 | From: newcastle-under-lyme | Registered: Apr 2005
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