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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Is Mormonism true?
Elder Moroni
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quote:
I do think this has shown your colours pinned to the mast EM. It goes something like this "We are Christian and you lot (apostates) aren't!"
This is not what I meant at all. I understand that you are Christians, and always will be. My point is that ... for me to be saved (or as we believe exalted), do I need the title of a Christian? For me, it suffices to say that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. I am not a Christian, if Christian means being parallel with other Christian churches. I am a Christian, however, in the way that I follow Christ.

quote:
You claim misunderstanding and persecution for LDS beliefs by the apostate church. Yet consistently these beliefs fall down when measured against the "traditional" Christian scripture. When asked to answer why it is that Mormon credibility has no substance (archeology, anthropology and theology) outside of the BoM, Mormon literature and scholarship you are strangely silent (although you have posted a great deal).
If you ask me a SPECIFIC question regarding a "weakness" in the Book of Mormon, I will answer it for you. The whole subject of the "fallibility of the Book of Mormon" is simply TOO big to comment on generally. Give me some specifics, and I will certainly answer them for you.


quote:
In the Christian world at large the claim to have the truth and all others to be apostate has usually one conclusion. Far from not being a traditional kind of Christianity (there are many whose Christianity ain't traditional but still quantifiably orthodox), Mormonism stands out as a Cult.
If you read the criteria for a cult, Mormonism COULD fall in to it for only one reason: the use of "masonry" or "secret combinations" (which I refute) in the Temple Ceremony. The truth is, only about 5% of the Temple Ceremony contains any resemblance to Masonic rites - and this 5% is actually seen in a completely different light compared to as Masons see theirs. Can you justify your reasons for labelling Mormonism as a cult? You ask me for justification, so I will ask you where you get your ideas from.

quote:
This is not said to condmen or berate. It is said to ask you to weigh up LDS in the light of the fullest gospel (- JS, BoM and LDS Doctrine). GBY [Two face]
I understand. I hope we can have a civilised discussion on these things! (-:


PS: Somebody asked if "marriage" is an essential thing for "celibate" people. It is not. But "celibate" people are those who cannot (biologically) have babies. We read in scripture:

"Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
(Eunuchs are celibate people in a nutshell.) The Eunuchs that have been made by men, or made themselves eunuchs for personal reasons rely upon the mercy of Christ. However, there is no justification in the bible for bishops and priests not to be married - as we have discussed on another thread.

[ 15. May 2005, 15:47: Message edited by: Elder Moroni ]

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Mo.

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Traveller
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quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
Nicole, that is a quote from me directly. And I stand by it. Unfortunately Friday is my busiest day of the week, and I have not been able to put together a decent list of links yet, but it is coming.

Is this list of links still coming? I am not sure I can stand the suspense much longer.

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I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Elder Moroni:
If you ask me a SPECIFIC question regarding a "weakness" in the Book of Mormon, I will answer it for you. The whole subject of the "fallibility of the Book of Mormon" is simply TOO big to comment on generally. Give me some specifics, and I will certainly answer them for you.

Some specifics:

There is no evidence in MEXICO that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in GUATEMALA that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Nicaragua that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Costa Rica that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Belize that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Honduras that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in El Salvador that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Panama that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Ecuador that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Venezuela that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Bolivia that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Colombia that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in French Guiana that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Guyana that any of it happened.
There is no evidence of Suriname that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Brazil that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Peru that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Chile that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Uruguay that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Paraguay that any of it happened.
There is no evidence in Argentina that any of it happened.

Feel free to answer any one (or more) of those very specific allegations.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Living in Gin

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I just read on this site that over 4000 changes have been made to the Book of Mormon since it was written by Joseph Smith. Is there any truth to this, and if so, how is this reconciled with the idea that the BoM is supposedly the inerrant word of God?

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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.

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Stumbling Pilgrim
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Mormon Boy, thanks for your response to my question, I'm sorry I haven't been back sooner. I'm really not sure I could be comfortable with the idea that what happens to me once I enter the presence of God is dependent on something being done on my behalf on earth, possibly without my knowledge. (It doesn't seem to me to be the same as praying for people who have died, which I know some people practice, and I don't have a problem with.) I'm puzzled as to how the teaching on the necessity of marriage squares with 1 Corinthians 7, which seems to imply that Paul regards marriage as an inconvenient necessity to counter immorality rather than something with deep significance for eternity.

I'm also concerned that it still seems to me that you're implying a hierarchy in heaven, with some of us consigned to servant status because we never married in the correct way. Anyway, thanks for taking the trouble to respond.

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Mormon Boy
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Gin, I have heard that many times, but the number always changes. 4000 is actually the largest that I have seen. I hope you noticed that they didn't list the changes or even categorize them. It didn't take long when I looked into this to find that the changes that were referenced were things like corrections to printing errors, the addition of footnotes and chapter headers, the division of chapters into verses, and some corrections to punctuation and grammatical errors mostly made by the Prophet Joseph Smith himself.

The fact that changes have been made is used to try and show that the Book of Mormon is changed to say whatever we want it to say. Nothing could be further from the truth, the only real difference between the originally published Book of Mormon and what we use today (which you can find online here) is that today's edition is easier to read, easier to cross reference with the Bible, and just plain easier to use.

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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not

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Mormon Boy
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SisterLove I am not sure how that reconciles with 1 Corinthians 11:11:

quote:
Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

I will have to read through chapter 7 some more to see what comes up.

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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not

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Mormon Boy
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Rossweise you said:

quote:
The problem for "mainstream Protestantism" is that it requires people to think for themselves. Mormonism, like some forms of Christian fundamentalism and certain other religions, lays it all down for you. In fact, thinking for yourself will get you into deep, deep trouble, as many Mormon intellectuals have discovered to their pain.

What? First, this doesn't seem to be the right forum for that type of statement, and Second, Nuh Uh, my people are way smarter than yours are, neener neener.

and then you said:

quote:
We're getting an unusually obvious look at the system with proselytizers like Elder Moroni and Mormon Boy, reading from their scripts, and checking with their bosses when someone asks something outside the usual. You can be sure that there are folks at higher levels reading over their shoulders, and making sure they stick to the approved answers.

I can't speak for EM because I have never met him (although I seriously doubt it for him either), but I am just a dude that spends too much time on the internet and likes to talk about the Gospel.

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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not

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Mormon Boy
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PC you said:

quote:
consistently these (LDS) beliefs fall down when measured against the "traditional" Christian scripture
Where do they fall down? I have posted a lot of replies to a lot of questions, and have used the Bible to support my beliefs. Other than the post by SisterLove about marriage, I haven't seen any Scriptural response to my posts or any Scripturally based reasons that my beliefs may not be true.

As I have said many times now, I believe the Bible to be revelation from God given through His Apostles and Prophets and I would be very interested to know where my beliefs don't stack up.

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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
Rossweise you said...Nuh Uh, my people are way smarter than yours are, neener neener.

No, that's not what I said at all. Intelligence doesn't have as much to do with it (I know some very intelligent people who've forked over thousands to the Scientologists; I know intelligent people who reject evolution, which is a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory; I know intelligent people who habitually watch daytime TV) as having the ability to compartmentalize things in one's brain.

Lots of solid evidence has been offered on this forum as to the lack of objective truth in the Book of Mormon, but you and EM -- and no one is calling you stupid! -- both manage to dismiss it without really engaging it.

quote:
...I am just a dude that spends too much time on the internet and likes to talk about the Gospel.
I believe the first part -- no question there! (Don't all of us here tend to spend too much time on the Internet?) But you're talking about Mormonism, not the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ -- and we can be sure that someone in some part of the Mormon hierarchy is keeping an eye on these discussions and making sure that the Mormons here keep it orthodox. I'm sure they see it as being for your own protection and that of the religion you're endorsing, but that's just the way the outfit works.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Mormon Boy
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ROFL!!! Ross, that last post would have been one of the funniest things I have read in a long time if only you weren't serious. You sound just like Dale from King of the Hill (and I pray you are at least familiar with the show so you know what I mean, if not you can at least read his official bio here) but it doesn't begin to do him justice.

You really just have no clue what the LDS Church is all about if you think that anyone in a leadership position has anytime to sit around and scour the internet to make sure that some yabo like me doesn't go posting something that doesn't fit in with the party line.

We have a lay clergy, which means that the vast majority of the Church leadership who work in their assigned callings as Teachers, and local leaders and Bishops and Stake Presidents, etc. receive no pay for their service. Each of those people have to work a regular job to support their families, and then spend what ever time they need to perform in their assigned role. If you were to attend an LDS Church service this Sunday (which I welcome you to do, I would be happy to help you find your local congregation) none of the people in the Chapel with you would be paid in anyway for their service. And many of them would have spent 10, 20, 30 even 40 or more hours, in addition to taking care of their families and working at their jobs, in Church Service. That really doesn't leave much room for anyone to waste time watching the internet to make sure people don't get out of line.

And before you try to say that we have people who are hired to do that, the Church has way too many real things to use its money on to waste it on something so stupid as that.

And as far as this goes:
quote:
But you're talking about Mormonism, not the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
As I have said a number of times now. I follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in the Holy Scriptures. That begins with the Bible and is only enhanced by the Book of Mormon, which serves as another Testament of Jesus Christ. If you follow another Gospel that is not based on the Bible, then you are correct, we do adhere to two very different Gospels.

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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not

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Duo Seraphim*
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
But you're talking about Mormonism, not the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ -- and we can be sure that someone in some part of the Mormon hierarchy is keeping an eye on these discussions and making sure that the Mormons here keep it orthodox. I'm sure they see it as being for your own protection and that of the religion you're endorsing, but that's just the way the outfit works.

Move off this, Rossweisse - you've already said this and received a reply. Repeating this statement is moving into the area of personal attack. The first part of your response was a little too personal too, Mormon Boy.

There's enough here to discuss without getting sidetracked.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

[ 17. May 2005, 03:42: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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2^8, eight bits to a byte

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Mormon Boy
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I apologize if I was inappropriately personal in Purgatory. [Hot and Hormonal]

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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not

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boppysbud
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Mormon boy, where is your list of the many links proving the historic, archeological, geographic, veracity of the stories in the Book of Mormon?

We have been waiting for several days now, no answers are forthcomming?

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
You sound just like Dale from King of the Hill (and I pray you are at least familiar with the show so you know what I mean...)

I don't watch television. (I prefer to waste time online, where I can REALLY get into trouble, rather than vegging in front of the boob tube.)


quote:
You really just have no clue what the LDS Church is all about if you think that anyone in a leadership position has anytime to sit around and scour the internet to make sure that some yabo like me doesn't go posting something that doesn't fit in with the party line.
That has not been my experience. My experience is that someone in SLC is always keeping a finger on the pulse.

And I'm still waiting for your responses to the problems with the BoM.

Rossweisse // sorry, Duo...

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I'm not dead yet.

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Duo Seraphim*
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:

quote:
You really just have no clue what the LDS Church is all about if you think that anyone in a leadership position has anytime to sit around and scour the internet to make sure that some yabo like me doesn't go posting something that doesn't fit in with the party line.
That has not been my experience. My experience is that someone in SLC is always keeping a finger on the pulse.
<snip>
Rossweisse // sorry, Duo...

Hosting

Repeating a personal attack you have recently been called for was not smart. Leave it alone. Now.

Duo Seraphim,Purgatory Host

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2^8, eight bits to a byte

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Rossweisse

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And the personal attack on me....?

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I'm not dead yet.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
And the personal attack on me....?

quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:
I apologize if I was inappropriately personal in Purgatory. [Hot and Hormonal]



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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Duo Seraphim*
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
And the personal attack on me....?

...was called by me and Mormon Boy apologised for it.

Take it up in the Styx.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

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2^8, eight bits to a byte

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Scot

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ADMIN MODE

Rossweisse,

Intentionally disregarding an official instruction from a host is one of the fastest routes to a suspension. Instead of simply turning the matter over to the admins, Duo Seraphim has generously given you the option of taking your complaint to the Styx. Whether or not you do so, you may not continue to argue the decision here and you may not continue to suggest that the LDS church is looking over Mormon Boy's shoulder when he posts. That topic is closed.

Scot
Member Admin

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Mormon Boy
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I don't want to mess with the rules, but I certainly don't want trouble for anyone on my account.

I am still working on the Book of Mormon information. I haven't had as much time to devote to it as I would like, but I am learning a whole lot so I appreciate the challenge from those of you who extended it.

But to whet your appetite and to keep some of you from doubting that I have anything to offer here are a couple of articles for you to enjoy:

Nahom existed much earlier than was believed in Joseph Smith's day

Despite being in the middle of a desert with no vegatation and no ore, there is at least one location that matches Nephi's description of the land Bountiful which would have been impossible for Joseph Smith to know.

And for those of you who said there is no connection between Ancient America and the Middle East, a connection between Egypt and Peru

These are just the very tip of the iceberg. The problem for me has been much more one of assimilating the available information than one of not finding any.

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For the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not

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boppysbud
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When you do get it all organised MB, PLEASE identify all of your links. Especially those to FARMS and FAIR. Both of those sources are far from independent and objective.

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Louise
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quote:
Originally posted by Mormon Boy:

And for those of you who said there is no connection between Ancient America and the Middle East, a connection between Egypt and Peru

There's not even a good parallel here, let alone a connection.

The ancient Egyptians had no practice of burying children with canes full of gypsum in their hands.

Neither did they have any practice of putting mummified hearts into gypsum.

Egyptians did not mummify the heart separately - they normally left it in place, though they would put the other organs in canopic jars .

Wallis Budge died in 1924 - his work is badly out of date. Things have moved on a long way in Egyptology since then.

quote:
He is credited with writing over 140 titles, many of which are still widely reprinted today. Many of his works, however, did not receive careful attention to detail; and were flawed even by the standards of his day.
Mummification simply means preserving a body or body part by shielding it from some of the effects of decomposition - not wrapping someone up in bandages and using Egyptian funerary procedures. It's done by different techniques in different parts of the world. You get mummies in China, Japan and Tibet too - all done by different processes. To leap from 'mummification' to 'there must be some Egyptian connection' is, to put it mildly, not warranted.

All this shows is that Egyptians and Peruvians preserved the hearts of the deceased in completely dissimilar ways. The only glimmer of similarity is that both cultures thought the heart was somehow important - however that is such a common ancient belief - found in so many variants in so many different cultures - as to prove no connection whatsoever.

The journalist who wrote this article made an absolutely nonsensical leap when he compared the two cultures on such a flimsy basis. You notice none of the scientific personnel he spoke to suggested or endorsed this. It's a flight of fancy on his part.

Louise

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Elder Moroni
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quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I just read on this site that over 4000 changes have been made to the Book of Mormon since it was written by Joseph Smith. Is there any truth to this, and if so, how is this reconciled with the idea that the BoM is supposedly the inerrant word of God?

There is truth that MANY changes have been made to the Book of Mormon. However, of the 3786 changes that have been made, only 4 are changes in the actual wording / phrasing of the text. The rest are changes to the documentation - the verse numbers.. etc. You see, when the Book of Mormon was printed, it was just a plain book - in the form you would find a novel. There were no verse or chapter numbers. The majority of the changes were changes to the verses. There have also been changes to the order of the books themselves, since strictly speaking there is no set order. The Book of Mormon is an abridgement (see The Words of Mormon).

The reason for changing the words in the minority was given through revelation to the first presidency. These changes were made to make the text more clear.

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Mo.

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