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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Harry and Terri - the Schiavo case
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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May her memory be eternal. [Votive]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69

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BBC report for those who wish to see it.

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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor

At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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[Votive]

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196

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May God welcome her with open arms to her eternal home. [Votive] [Votive] [Votive]

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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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Why do I have the sinking feeling in my stomach that after an exceptionally short mourning period this is only going to launch a new and even more vicious round of fighting?

I hope Terri comes down and smites whoever is on the side of this fight she didn't agree with.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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"To us who are alive, may God grant forgiveness; to all who have died, a place of light and peace."

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553

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quote:
I hope Terri comes down and smites whoever is on the side of this fight she didn't agree with.

Not smites -- puts into a persistent vegitative state.

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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams

"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune

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MrSponge2U

Ship’s scrub
# 3076

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Lord have mercy on Terri and her family and friends. May they be comforted in their time of mourning. [Votive]

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sig? what sig?

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Ye Olde Motherboarde
Ship's Mother and Singing Quilter
# 54

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quote:
Terri Shaivo has died. May she and those who cared about her finally find some peace.
AMEN to that, Scot. From your lips to God's ear.

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In Memory of Miss Molly, TimC, Gambit, KenWritez, koheleth, Leetle Masha, JLG, Genevieve, Erin, RuthW2, deuce2, Sidi and TonyCoxon, unbeliever, Morlader, Ken :tear: 20 years but who’s counting?..................

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
quote:
I hope Terri comes down and smites whoever is on the side of this fight she didn't agree with.

Not smites -- puts into a persistent vegitative state.
I say smite, you say PVC, for this one instance I think it is a "toMAYto/toMAHto" situation.

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Herminator
Shipmate
# 5250

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[Votive]

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"Wizards in trousers? Not in my university! It`s sissy. People´d laugh." said Ridcully
-Terry Pratchett: Soul Music

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St. Punk the Pious

Biblical™ Punk
# 683

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[Votive]

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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.

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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420

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[Votive] May the angels lead you into paradise. May the martyrs come to welcome you and take you to the Holy City, the new and eternal Jerusalem where Lazarus is poor no longer. Rest in peace and rise in glory, Terry - and may God grant peace to the living!

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn

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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754

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I was impressed with an interview with Dr. John Harvey on the PBS program Religion and Ethics Newsweekly. Dr Harvey is head of the Medical Bioethics Committee at Georgetown Univ. Hospital. He stated that there were 19.000 cases of a vegetative state presently in the US. Also that his practice was to distinguish those who might have a chance of recovery however slim and watch them for a year before recommending any further intervention.
The whole interview can be seen here:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week830/perspectives.html

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Scarlet

Mellon Collie
# 1738

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[Votive]

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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer

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Glimmer

Ship's Lantern
# 4540

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At last the child is taken into eternal peace; but God must grieve afresh over those who continue to use her body. [Votive]

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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork

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Not

Ship's Quack
# 2166

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How dare Bush continue to try to make political capital out of this; how dare he offer his condolences to her parents only, and not her husband [Mad]


[Votive] for peace now, and silence

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Was CJ; now Not

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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[Votive]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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neandergirl

Opposing the thumb
# 8916

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[Votive]

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Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. Hebrews 13:5 NIV
We come from love, we return to love, and all around is love.
Lord, ease our burdens, give us peace and enable us to do your work. Tree Bee

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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I will be very interested to see if more political hay can be made of this case and if legislation based on it will be proposed. And it's fascinating to me that the Schindlers playing to the media had such little effect on public opinion.
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jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

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Or we could go back to the OP and discuss just how something as rigid and codified as the legal system can deal with something as nebulous and unclear as the point at which an inidividual passes the line between impaired but alive versus alive but no longer functioning.
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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I don't think the legal system can deal with the end of life in a lot of cases. That's why these should remain private decisions. But I'm afraid that this case will prompt legislation to remove end of life decisions from the private sphere.
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013

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[Votive]
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
But I'm afraid that this case will prompt legislation to remove end of life decisions from the private sphere.

Big Brother will decide when you're ready to die. Or rather, when Big Brother is ready for you to die.

Novo ordo fuckedupum.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
# 8895

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Big Brother will decide when you're ready to die. Or rather, when Big Brother is ready for you to die.

Novo ordo fuckedupum.

Or rather, will try to stop little brother from pulling the plug when little brother gets the s_s with another family member for hanging around too long.

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

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Exiled Youth
Shipmate
# 8744

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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Big Brother will decide when you're ready to die. Or rather, when Big Brother is ready for you to die.

Novo ordo fuckedupum.

Or rather, will try to stop little brother from pulling the plug when little brother gets the s_s with another family member for hanging around too long.
I hope you're not seriously suggesting that Mr Schiavo's struggles over the past few years, culminating in the death of his wife, are because he "got the s_s with another family member hanging around too long"?

Quite apart from the fact that I don't understand your turn of phrase, that's [polite purg mode on] not a very wise way of putting it.

If you meant this in a more general sense, please do clarify this, because in the context of this thread, it is easy to see that this could be taken to mean something entirely different, and IMHO, offensive.

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Gold from Egypt is still gold -- St. Augustine of Hippo

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
# 8895

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Well, my understanding was that after the obligatory expressions of compassion, we had now moved into the area of wild generalisations linked to nothing in particular. I was going along with that.

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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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Gordon----your suggestion that someone other than my own family should make decisions about my life, or something other than my own strongly felt wishes on this subject should be a major consideration, scares me to death.

I get the feeling that you believe someone in a PVS has some sort of duty to live as long as possible. Is that a misperception?

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
# 8895

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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
I get the feeling that you believe someone in a PVS has some sort of duty to live as long as possible. Is that a misperception?

Hi Paige

I'm not even sure I understand what this means. Presumably one of the things about PVS is that you're past making choices about your fate and you're in the hands of God.

I guess the family could have the choice — someone has to. I don't assume that the family is populated by good people, however, any more than I assume that the government is. Not really sure what the right thing is.

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Well, obviously, the patient has the choice. If the patient does not specify his/her wishes, then yes, it SHOULD fall to the family. Unless the state can prove that the legal next of kin is unfit to be the patient's guardian they should butt the hell out.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812

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Hi Ruth,

Here's Tom DeLay's reaction for starters:

quote:

Speaking with reporters later in Houston, DeLay said lawmakers "will look at an arrogant and out of control judiciary that thumbs its nose at Congress and the President."

It's so predictable it's depressing. I don't think it takes a clairvoyant to see that this is exactly the outcome the powers were hoping for. [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

FF

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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?

Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
# 8895

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Well, obviously, the patient has the choice. If the patient does not specify his/her wishes, then yes, it SHOULD fall to the family. Unless the state can prove that the legal next of kin is unfit to be the patient's guardian they should butt the hell out.

This is workable and sensible.

You may still get a situation where a family of unconvicted axe murderers realise they now have a chance to get their hands on auntie's diamonds. But there's no reason to imagine that the government is going to do any better.

Trying to think biblically, the responsibility for care of family members seems to rest with family members first and foremost.

(one example of the obligation is in 1Tim. 5:8 "But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." )

[edited to remove random letters]

[ 01. April 2005, 13:09: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

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Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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But Godon, isn't that precisely what happened here? So what's your beef?

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I'm not even sure I understand what this means. Presumably one of the things about PVS is that you're past making choices about your fate and you're in the hands of God.

Gordon----I have thought a lot about your response to me earlier, where you pointed out that we have made medical advances to keep people from dying. And I guess the statement above gets to my question about "How far are we morally obligated to go, in order to do that?"

Fifty years ago, we didn't have to make these decisions. There was no "persistent vegetative state" because you could not "persist" without food and water. Our medical technology has clearly outstripped our wisdom at this point. We can keep people alive for long periods of time now. What bothers me is that few people are asking whether we should---largely because they get accused of advocating eugenics (or wanting to "off" granny for her money) when they raise the issue.

What is life? And what is merely existence? Are they separate states?

I, of course, think they are. I have such a visceral negative reaction to the thought of ending up like Terri Schiavo---the notion literally makes my flesh crawl. And I think it's because I believe she was forced to remain an animated corpse (forgive me, I know that looks cruel in print, but it's the best description I can think of), hostage to the hopes, guilt, and pain of the people who loved her.

I do believe we all have a time to be born and a time to die---and I also believe that humans have reached a point where they can frustrate those plans. I think the Schiavo case should make us confront whether this is the best thing for us to be doing.

I am not advocating that people be refused treatment for cancer or heart disease---PVS is a fundamentally different sort of animal to my mind. Volition is gone, identity is gone---all the things that make me "me" are gone in that scenario. There is no treatment that will regenerate a brain when it has dissolved into fluid---there is no hope of recovery or any kind of life as most of us would recognize it.

I guess the question I want to ask is, "What purpose does it serve to keep people in a PVS alive?" Are their interests being served? Or do we do it simply because we feel guilt and pain at the thought of letting go?

quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I guess the family could have the choice — someone has to. I don't assume that the family is populated by good people, however, any more than I assume that the government is. Not really sure what the right thing is.

In most cases, families do end up agreeing on what is best. This case ended up splashed all over the news because it was a family dispute gone nuclear. Judges say "hard cases make bad law," and this is surely an example of that if there ever was one.

Bottom line, I trust my family to make decisions for me far more than I trust Tom Delay or George Bush.

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
# 8895

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The nagging sense that everything done might've been perfectly legal and ethically defensible, and that in the process someone who wanted to be alive is dead.

(To which there are all sorts of good answers, I know).

But even more, an anxiety about whether this case will turn out to be a defining moment in how the Florida and/or US judiciary treats other cases which are not as clear cut. A line has now been drawn, and if you are on the far side of it, we can pull you off whatever life support you are on, and that's it.

I feel quite worried about how things will look in 10 years time, and I just hope and pray it's not like the Netherlands.

Anyway anxiety about the future is not a particularly Christian trait, so on that note I might just go off and have a sleep.

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
# 8895

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Oops, sorry, cross-posted with Paige. The previous post was as reply to GAG. Will get back to you Paige.

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Go Anne Go

Amazonian Wonder
# 3519

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Gordon, the line was drawn ages ago. This case isn't spectacular in drawing some sort of new legal test. Hardly! The court went to some considerable lengths to determine what Terri wanted. Seven years of legal fighting. If there was evidence she wanted to be kept alive, I can't help but think that in seven years it would have come out.

Don't confuse Teri's wishes with the parents grandstanding.

And what about all the other people who wanted to be alive but are dead anyway? Through disease, being shot, being hit by cars, heart attacks, and so on. No one lives forever, and I think that's been overlooked here too. Death is as natural a part of life as being born.

[ 01. April 2005, 13:39: Message edited by: Go Anne Go ]

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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com

Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paige
Shipmate
# 2261

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Thanks Gordon---I'm out myself for the day. I desperately need to finish up a project. I'll look forward to re-engaging soon. You have given me a lot to think about.

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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What I think is interesting about this case is the number of people claiming to be operating out of religious motives, who want to side with the parents in this case. Doesn't the Bible say that a man or woman LEAVES their parents and cleaves to their spouse? The parents are no longer her immediate family, at least when compared to her husband. There is nothing in the Bible or even in Christian tradition that would say that the parents should trump the husband in this case.

Not only do bad cases make bad law, clearly they make bad theology too.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Halo
Shipmate
# 6933

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[Votive]

[ 01. April 2005, 19:31: Message edited by: Halo ]

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ReginaShoe
Shipmate
# 4076

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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
What I think is interesting about this case is the number of people claiming to be operating out of religious motives, who want to side with the parents in this case. Doesn't the Bible say that a man or woman LEAVES their parents and cleaves to their spouse?

Actually, I don't have the reference for this, but if I recall correctly, Gary Bauer did oppose the Congressional attempt at intervening, because of the sanctity of the marriage relationship. But indeed, this perspective seemed to be in the minority among the people claiming to speak from the fundamental Christian viewpoint...

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"If you have any poo, fling it now." - Mason the chimp

Posts: 598 | From: Colorado | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Riv
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# 3553

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Sanctity of the marriage relationship? W/Michael Schiavo?

[Killing me]

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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams

"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune

Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
nickel
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# 8363

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Funny, just a minute ago my husband put forth that same argument, about the husband & wife cleaving ... and I told him the fundies would have no problem denying the sanctity of marriage as it suits them.

[Roll Eyes]


Condolences to all who loved her.

Posts: 547 | From: Virginia USA | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
nickel
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Oh, apologies to TheRiv, I didn't mean label you anything by implication. Caught that too late for editing.
Posts: 547 | From: Virginia USA | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
# 8895

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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:

Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
I'm not even sure I understand what this means. Presumably one of the things about PVS is that you're past making choices about your fate and you're in the hands of God.
Gordon----I have thought a lot about your response to me earlier, where you pointed out that we have made medical advances to keep people from dying. And I guess the statement above gets to my question about "How far are we morally obligated to go, in order to do that?"
A question I would feel reluctant to answer, in the same way that there would be some uneasiness about answering the anorexic who asked, “Am I morally obligated to eat?” Answer: “Well no, or rather, er, why do you ask the question?”

If the life of a human being (yes, defined more than biologically) is of ultimate value, the dilemma of whether we should feel obliged to sustain it, insofar as we have power, seems to ask the wrong style of question altogether. It leaves the burden of proof on those who believe that life is better than death.

Shouldn’t the question rather be: Under what circumstances do you, as a family member, feel that it is right for support to be withdrawn? And on what grounds?

Logically it is the same question but the burden of proof is shifted to those who want to argue, for whatever reason, that support should be withdrawn. I'm assuming here that there is full awareness of the likely consequence (death).

quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
We can keep people alive for long periods of time now. What bothers me is that few people are asking whether we should

Is this true? Didn’t the TS case acquire such a high profile because, among other reasons, people were asking just such questions?

quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
What is life? And what is merely existence? Are they separate states?

As a Bible-believing Christian my answer is always going to come back to revelation rather than philosophy. Does the Bible know of anyone who merely exists but is not alive? The closest we might come to this is the Old Testament notion of Sheol, but as that is past the point of death it’s outside the range of our discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
I have such a visceral negative reaction to the thought of ending up like Terri Schiavo---the notion literally makes my flesh crawl. And I think it's because I believe she was forced to remain an animated corpse

It is an awful thought. But I am not sure that it is more awful than the thought of being an unanimated corpse. Or if it is more awful, perhaps it shows how little we understand death. The writer of Ecclesiastes says “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.” (Ecclesiastes 9:4) The value of life is inestimable. We don’t know what it would be like to be near death and barely conscious, if at all. And we can’t second guess reality by projecting our anxieties and fears onto those who may or may not decide to care for us.


[quote]Originally posted by Paige
[qb]I do believe we all have a time to be born and a time to die---and I also believe that humans have reached a point where they can frustrate those plans.

I agree with the first half of your statement but not the second. Terri Schiavo died at the moment of God’s choosing; human plans were part of God’s plan.

(The greatest example of this is the death of Jesus—evil men plotting it and bringing it about, but God ordaining it:

Acts 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.)

quote:
I guess the question I want to ask is, "What purpose does it serve to keep people in a PVS alive?" Are their interests being served? Or do we do it simply because we feel guilt and pain at the thought of letting go?
These are not questions I feel confident to answer. I do know that once the decision to allow death has been made and acted upon, it can’t be unmade and unenacted. Terri S would’ve died anyway, with or without human decision to stop feeding her. Because I’m not God, I personally would rather have erred on the side of keeping on feeding. I thank God I didn’t have to make the decision. I worry when I hear some of the reasoning of those who were so confident this was the right action.

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Glimmer

Ship's Lantern
# 4540

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quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
Hi Ruth,

Here's Tom DeLay's reaction for starters:

quote:

Speaking with reporters later in Houston, DeLay said lawmakers "will look at an arrogant and out of control judiciary that thumbs its nose at Congress and the President."

It's so predictable it's depressing. I don't think it takes a clairvoyant to see that this is exactly the outcome the powers were hoping for. [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

FF

Am I reading this right? Has The Administration become so arrogant that they no longer feel they have to pretend that the Judiciary is independent of the Legislative? Or perhaps it's a deliberate 'creeping' agenda that eventually aims at making it commonly accepted that the legal system is a Party instrument. Thank Goodness our Government got a bloody nose when it tried to give itself powers to circumvent due legal process recently.
For the US Administration to have involved itself in the Shiavo case is shocking. Most of all I feel anger at those who have shamelessly exploited Terri's parents; in the limited newscasts in the UK the parents are always seen flanked, steered and spoken for by minders. Mind you, I don't have any time for the parents themselves who participated in such callous meat marketing.

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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork

Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gordon Cheng

a child on sydney harbour
# 8895

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See, now, without getting into the legal technicalities of the Schiaovo case, this is the sort of recovery that bothers me.

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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care

Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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Without getting into the merits of the Schiavo case (the "legal technicalities" to which you refer are I assume the 17 lower court decisions finding that the medical situation was a certain way), you can't understand why this would never have happened in her case. The case you cite is completely medically different. Also, the question was 1) is she ever going to recover (No.) and 2) would she have wanted to be sustained that way (No.) This is hardly a "legal technicality". You can persist in comparing apples and oranges all you like, but it doesn't shed much light on the Schiavo case.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Or to put it another way, the fact that people with brain damage can regain consciousness does not mean that people whose cerebral cortexes no longer exist can do so.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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