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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Bad taste
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I don't expect (some) to agree with me but it would be a shame for these not to have some appreciation of just how such things affect the rest of us.
Uhm...so just how did it affect you, Father Gregory? Did you have to go lie down in a darkened room with a cold compress on your forehead? Or just get a lovely self-affirming little thrill of righteous indignation. Or what?
The Community Editor and the Administrators probably need to know in case you're going to try to collect damages for emotional distress.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
Everyone liked him.
Really? Everyone? I can think of some who might disagree.
I'd find it refreshing if anyone would stop kissing the man's ass posthumously. I also think it would be respectful to speak honestly about successes and failures, agreements and disagreements, rather than spewing endless phony lovey-doveys.
Just a man? Maybe, but, like the hundreds of saints canonized under JPII's oversight, he has been set up as something extra-special.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I'd really like to know, too, why it is that the Circus sweepstake on the pope's death bothers Coot but the Blessed Sacrament Webcam thread in Ecclesiantics doesn't. Is the pope's death more holy and worthy of solemn respect than the body of Our Lord?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
I know you're just being a bitch
(By-the-by, I was rather distressed the hosts interpreted this as a statement of fact rather than as a personal attack. I have feelings too, ya know.)
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Note: posting as a shipmate, as I am far too personally involved in this thread to be hosting.
I thought Coot's tongue was lodged in his cheek at that point, Sine, on account of the bleeding heart smilie. And given that you suggested that Fr Gregory experienced "a lovely self-affirming little thrill of righteous indignation," it seems to me that you're hardly in a position to complain about personal attacks.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Sorry, Ruth. I was joking. The Coot of course was absolutely right.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Sorry, I should have realized you were joking when you claimed to have feelings! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
saysay, you are so totally invited to my funeral. I'll even bequeath you my cowbell.
Fr. G., you're invited also, but you may not like it much. In the honored tradition of my ancestors, I'm having a Irish/Italian/Hispanic/Napa Valley wake, which means there will be much booze available, and lots of stories told, and some of them might even be sans cursewords and innuendos. But knowing the stories will be about me, don't count on it.
In Brazil, mothers whose children die in infancy are told not to cry, because their tears will send their child's soul to Hell. We're not all brought up with the same concept of 'proper' grieving and a 'proper' death.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
Just this past week I've been to a family funeral for my granddaughter's Daddy who died unexpectedly at age 36.
All his pall bearers dressed in jeans and identical Carolina Blue UNC Tar Heel basketball T-shirts...each with a white carnation pinned on.
I'm not going to mention the Tar Heel Ram stuffed animal, which had been restuffed with marijuana and placed in his coffin...
One of the young children got up and sang the only two verses of Amazing Grace that she knew - acapella and totally off-key...that was it for the music.
This would have been the best funeral I've ever been to, except for the fact that the minister preached an altar call. Now that was Bad Taste and Tacky. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
The pope had a great sense of humor; he may himself have been amused about it, had he known.
[ 04. April 2005, 03:22: Message edited by: Zeke ]
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
I only said Sine was a bitch because I was secure in the strength of our mutual brotherly affection.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
And yes, also because I knew he was just being bitchy.
(Heart you babe, will so be waving on the dock in Sinny when your ship comes in)
Have been thinking about the Blessed Sacrament Webcam thread. I think I am really viewing a place where the Body of Our Lord is present in the MSB when I look at the cam. So I don't think it is a joke or cause for scorn - I didn't/don't think (or haven't realised if they are) that the people participating on the thread are doing it to take the piss. (Those monks are total dudes I reckon!) I suppose worship on the internet is too young for what is appropriate/inappropriate to be 'codified'.
I've been taught that taking photos in a church at the consecration is disrespectful. But I'm willing to be persuaded one way or the other re: the Blessed Sacrament Webcam. About death there's been a lot of time for our traditions to evolve (should we have a new thread on this? Why is American society having difficulty with death?! People have been dying now for 6 million years!), the MSB webcam is new territory. I am open to teaching on right and appropriate ways to behave with respect to this.
I recognise that I'm a product of my culture regarding my attitude to death (I thought this culture was a bit more widespread... but er, it seems not. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ) so maybe there is a bit of culture clash going on. lol, honestly, I'm not dealing with the concept that it's possible to be respectful and still run a sweepstake on someone's death. (Nor for that matter to do Monty Python skits at the bedside as saysay related) Ruth, who I admire very much, says it is not imicable with human dignity. saysay (who I don't know well, but I'll take your word for it) says it is not imicable with respect.
I don't know. Sweepstakes are for Melbourne Cup day! imo, death will lose its 'specialness' or holiness ('set apartness'). I laugh and joke every day - a death is special (in the same way a birth is special), so I do different things.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
quote:
I am right with Cooty here. The "shuffle 'em off in a box", "let's crack open the champers!" attitude toward death which trivialises grief and despoils the dignity of the reposed is something I find grossly offensive.
Wow - I'm amazed you are able to minister in Manchester and avoid that culture. Lucky you aren't Anglican.
Champers? Bloody champers? We get 't' whippet ter pee in us glasses and toast the departed, in Yorkshire.
My Dad's funeral was one of the most joyful occasions I've ever been to in a church. My Ex preached a damned good sermon, which had us alternately in tears and in fits of laughter (I'm talking about 600 people - so gales of laughter, really).
Then we had a burial - the first in our family as far as I know, at Dad's request. His brother, who was utterly distraught, noticed some drainage pipes in the grave just as they lowered the coffin and muttered a little too loudly, "Trust Our Kid, eh?! Bloody central heating!"
And we were all reduced to helpless giggles. That was the utmost mark of respect to my Dad because he'd have loved it. Of course, it was also a healthy release of emotion.
So yes - perhaps it is right to see that there is no prevalent culture. Theat Brazilian custom sounds terrible to me - but if I were there I would respect it. I have very strong views on the Pope and some of what he did, which I certainly haven't expressed because it would upset lots of people. That doesn't prevent me from seeing that he did some wonderful things too and that he was an old man deserving of respect. As the last few posters have said, I found that respect totally lacking in the last few days, but when I said so on another thread I was accused of 'talking like an Orangeman'. (And Sine, Honey, it wasn't said in love; I found it deeply insulting but the hosts didn't pick up on that either - maybe they're just jealous of the last few to get through SoF Idol..? )
I'm beginning to think I should have 'Let's agree to disagree' as my sig... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
On the passing of my aunt's mother, she walked into her (22 year old) sons room, woke him up, and said:
"You know your grandmother?", she asked.
"Yes" he replied groggily.
"Forget her" she quipped. And left the room.
In my family, this made us all laugh so hard we just about puked, including the son who was the "victim" of the joke. Now when anyone says "Do you remember so and so?" we all kinda freak out! We celebrate at funerals in the BEST Irish wake fashion, laughter and crying, all the better. If anyone told us it was in bad taste, then they need to go to their own family and get out of mine! I suspect this may be cultural/familial and people that call it bad taste can do it with their families/culture and please leave mine out of your "taste".
I like so many others here would LOVE the joke if they held a dead pool/dead lottery on me, I'd just be upset if I couldn't rig it for someone I preferred! And if they don't throw a BIG wake with lots of humor upon my death then I'll come back to haunt them. I will! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Vikki Pollard
Shipmate
# 5548
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Posted
I've just remembered very belatedly that we actually ran a sweepstake on the time Holly would be born. Of course we considered what would happen if something went wrong (we would have paid up) but I have to say it was tremendously helpful during Labour to look at the clock and think, "Ooooh! Annie might win if it's born soon!" etc.
Yes, that was GROSS bad taste. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) Fun, though.
At least with someone who's dying, if they recover and ruin it there's still a positive. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Now if you want REAL bad taste, take a look at what I think is the Hindustan Times picking up an April Fool somewhat belatedly (Reuters date is April 1st, HT's date is April 2nd). On the other hand, I've often had the same thought about Dubbleya's face so maybe it isn't a joke after all?
[ 04. April 2005, 07:55: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]
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"I don't get all this fuss about global warming, Miss. Why doesn't the Government just knock down all the f**king greenhouses?" (One of my slightly less bright 15 year old pupils)
Posts: 5695 | From: The Far Side | Registered: Feb 2004
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
I told my wife about the circus thread. She said it was disgusting and in bad taste. I didn't tell her I'd posted. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Did you tell her that you'd won?
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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I'm not sure how much the various anecdotes along the lines of 'when somebody dies in our family we deck the house with bunting and hire a brass band' actually relate to the OP. I took the point of that to be that however we as individuals respond to death in our own orbit (which will vary with cultural background, circumstances, temperament etc), ought there to be a level of public decorum?
I agree with the various posters who pointed out the media-driven mood of 'more, we need more'. Anyone who's ever been anywhere near that sleepless hydra which is 24-hour, rolling, global news broadcasting knows that 'Yes, Pope dying' followed by 'Yup. Still dying' is not going to sate the beast.
I'm inclined to think that is what has really destroyed any possibility of an agreed standard of public reticence on any topic. Everywhere and always, human lives are being turned into fodder for the TV screens. Sometimes with consent ('reality' shows), more often not. Everything can ultimately be reduced to a gameshow, a format, a soap.
So, it's all the fault of the Evil Murdoch. (Ever notice how close that name is to Moloch? Coincidence? I think not.)
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pânts*
Ship's underwear
# 4487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
Everyone liked him.
Really? Everyone? I can think of some who might disagree.
Ok, that was more one of those glib generalised statements that people make when someone dies. I know nothing about the guy (nor am I really interested!!)
quote:
Originally posted by Coot:
So I don't think it is a joke or cause for scorn - I didn't/don't think (or haven't realised if they are) that the people participating on the thread are doing it to take the piss.
Blimey. I thought the whole thread was a pisstake. I didn't realise that people were taking it seriously.
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I'm not here any more. Dial 999 to get me. (No. Please don't really. Bit you could PM me on my new number cos I never get PMs!)
Posts: 8380 | From: The Stables | Registered: May 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
What I think is bad taste is the hypocritical sycophancy of the Western media. They keep using the words 'monumental' and 'highly significant' to describe the life and influence of the 'pope of popes' etc. blah, blah, blah...
But next week they'll be writing Christianity off once again as repressive, irrelevant, and in terminal decline.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Pants:
Blimey. I thought the whole thread was a pisstake. I didn't realise that people were taking it seriously.
Well this is the thing. I can take the MSB very seriously, while being amused at the surrounding trappings. Very anglo-caff style (not that I am one) - outside the Mass, to be self-deprecating about the trappings; over-emphasise them; camp them up; treat them as more important- the creature rather than the Creator (you mean they aren't); yet still conduct the Mass with deadly serious sincerity and solemnity.
I think (?) Ruth is getting at something similar to this regarding death. Or maybe not. Maybe not also for Erin and saysay. Sorry, bit obtuse, me at the moment. Not sure if they are coming from a position that solemnity is not an issue/can be dispensed with or that levity does not preclude it and it occurs concomittantly or concurrently but distinctly.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
When some of you have finished interpeting my own thoughts and feelings for me let me repeat that I expect Christians to take death, mourning and hope very seriously and not to trivialise that. How that gets translated into not enjoying wakes or being up my arse about anything God only knows.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
When some of you have finished interpeting my own thoughts and feelings for me let me repeat that I expect Christians to take death, mourning and hope very seriously and not to trivialise that. How that gets translated into not enjoying wakes or being up my arse about anything God only knows.
When some of YOU have finished deciding that you're the moral arbiter of the world let me repeat that I don't actually care what you expect Christians to do.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Doohickie
Shipmate
# 7817
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Posted
I haven't read the whole thread; forgive me if I cover the same ground.
The original post makes several excellent points regarding the death of the pope and the inappropriateness of jokes regarding the event. I have tremendous respect for the John Paul II and think he will be remembered as one of the greatest world leaders of the late 20th century.
Nevertheless, I guess I totally disagree with you in that I find the jokes about the pope's death hilarious. I've been reflecting on this since I first saw this thread, and some thoughts have come to me as to why I can see your points, yet still enjoy the humor:
1. Humor, the best humor, is irreverent. Gallows humor, battlefield humor, humor about death are among the best.
2. We've been through a vigil- a period of waiting for death to relieve John Paul II from the concerns of this world. His suffering is over now. The humor is merely a normal reaction to the end of this tense time.
3. Carol Wojtyla was reported to have a pretty good sense of humor. As someone who has endured all that he did in his life (not only his late-life ailments, but his resistance to the Nazis and Communists), a sense of humor would be a valuable asset.
4. In his last days, John Paul II was at peace. He said repeatedly as his health deteriorated that he was in God's hands. I'm sure he believed it. I do.
5. Even as we speak, Carol Wojtyla is in the bosom of the Lord. No words we say here on earth can hurt him now. This is a time to rejoice; his suffering is over and the servant has been called home.
As Pope John Paul II himself said with his last words, "Amen!"
Be at peace, Carol Wojtyla!
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I am the Bishop Formerly Known As Paul_H.
Click here to help a young widow and her children from my church
Posts: 336 | From: Fort Worth, TX, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
How can I be expected to take death seriously when by His resurrection, my beloved master Jesus taught me to laugh in its face?
He made a mockery of death. I follow Him.
Cheers
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
my beloved master Jesus taught me to laugh in its face?
How did he teach you that?
He wept when Lazarus died.
Resurrection is not immunity from death. The Risen Christ still bears the marks of his wounds. Our sins are forgiven us, but they still offend. And still have real consequences in this world if not the next, causing real pain and real distress. Death and Hell are defeated, but still, to us, terrible.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Hi Ken,
They may be terrible to you, but not to me. You're entitled to believe in death and hell. I don't and won't. Not since my Master lived and died and resurrected expressly so that I might be free from their depressing influence.
Jesus promised me eternal life. He showed me through His resurrection and through Lazarus that death has no power over life if I believe in Him. And I do.
I'll use His words from John 11 25&26:
"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, even though he may die, will live and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
I think death is a bad joke, and deserves to be laughed into nothingness. If you want to think otherwise, be my guest. I would never huff at you because I thought your perceptions offended MY beliefs about death.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Oh for fuck's sake Gregory, knock off that "Dear Erin" crap. I'm not your dear anything, and posting on a message board is NOT writing a letter.
As to your "so?" remark... well, I'm somehow not surprised. I mean, after all, what would a thread be without you demanding that other people respect your sensibilities while simultaneously talking to us like we're your children or -- worse yet -- your particular congregation. You're not any sort of spiritual leader around here, so you can drop your lectures any old time.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
would never huff at you because I thought your perceptions offended MY beliefs about death.
But you just did.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Sorry Ken,
I have no control over the tone you "hear" me posting in. If you hear a huff, it's more a reflection of your mood than mine.
Try reading again in a different tone.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
You are still doing it. You are writing in a patronising-sounding way.
But I'm not in a huff - I was just pointing out that your opinions, which you are as entitled to as anyone, are not the teachings of Jesus as we have them in the Gospels.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Sorry Ken,
I am writing in a direct way. You are ascribing the "tone" in your head.
You are entitled to your view and if you don't think I have gotten the lesson of the gospel, then that's entirely OK with me. I don't see how this can be viewed as patronising. If your experience and life are enhanced by a fear of death and hell, then I can't argue with it. All I can do is say "sorry, not my cup of tea."
There's a logical fallacy that goes "everyone believes X is true, therefore it must be true." You're definitely in the majority, Ken. Whether or not you're ultimately right can only be told in time.
I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong, but my money is on God and Jesus, not death and hell.
Cheers
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
No Erin. I was just returning the compliment in a sort of infinite regression. It was a joke. You know, why should I care that you don't what I care ... etc. etc. You don't have to care what I care about but perhaps sometimes it's useful simply to receive what the other person has to say.
BTW, I doubt whether I shall be able to shake "Dear ...." treat texting and emailing in no different way than I treat letters. You couldn't have thought I meant anything else shirley?! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Not sure if they are coming from a position that solemnity is not an issue/can be dispensed with or that levity does not preclude it and it occurs concomittantly or concurrently but distinctly.
I guess I’m coming from the position that levity doesn’t preclude solemnity.
Death is solemn. Death is going to remain solemn no matter what I do or don’t do. Since the nature of death doesn’t depend on me, I think of my job as needing to deal with people’s reactions and their needs.
I tend to think that respecting a person means treating the person as they want to be treated, as long as doing so doesn’t cause me to violate the dictates of my own conscience. So when we visited my best friend’s father (who was a very traditional and intellectual man made uncomfortable by displays of emotion) in the hospital, we acted as he wanted us to act in public and saved the laughter and tears until we got home.
On the other hand, my mother was raised by people who thought that any display of emotion besides a calm radiant joy was proof that you weren’t a Good Christian. One of the things she told me she admired about me was my ability to laugh until I cry and cry until I laugh. Had I suddenly become all prim and stiff-upper-lipped proper, she would have read me the riot act (if she could have).
Maybe it’s a cultural difference. Although you wouldn’t know it from the news the past few weeks, death is rarely mentioned in public (apart from politicians nattering on about our culture of death). To paraphrase Aries, at some point the prohibition against speaking about sex was replaced with a prohibition against speaking about death. When death does get mentioned, it’s usually accompanied by a maudlin sentimentality, as if the only appropriate way to feel is heartbroken.
Death is more complicated than that, as are people’s reactions to it. I have no idea what relationship people posting on the circus thread have to the Pope, but I don’t think it’s my job to determine their internal states or their intentions.
And Spiffy, I’ll be there with bells on…
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Thinking about this, I remembered reading about a South American tribe that actually adds a little bit of the deceased into a meal in a respectful gesture, I think there was also a 'making them part of you' sense as well. So obviously culture determined. I am not actually horrified by that, whereas outlined responses of my fellow Westerners cause me consternation, so there you go.
But, leaving the 'appropriate response to death' aspect, I wanted to get back to Firenze's excellent post.
quote:
Firenze:
I'm not sure how much the various anecdotes along the lines of 'when somebody dies in our family we deck the house with bunting and hire a brass band' actually relate to the OP. I took the point of that to be that however we as individuals respond to death in our own orbit (which will vary with cultural background, circumstances, temperament etc), ought there to be a level of public decorum?
I agree with the various posters who pointed out the media-driven mood of 'more, we need more'. Anyone who's ever been anywhere near that sleepless hydra which is 24-hour, rolling, global news broadcasting knows that 'Yes, Pope dying' followed by 'Yup. Still dying' is not going to sate the beast.
I'm inclined to think that is what has really destroyed any possibility of an agreed standard of public reticence on any topic. Everywhere and always, human lives are being turned into fodder for the TV screens. Sometimes with consent ('reality' shows), more often not. Everything can ultimately be reduced to a gameshow, a format, a soap.
So, it's all the fault of the Evil Murdoch. (Ever notice how close that name is to Moloch? Coincidence? I think not.)
Specifically: "I took the point of that to be that however we as individuals respond to death in our own orbit (which will vary with cultural background, circumstances, temperament etc), ought there to be a level of public decorum?", which I was also trying to (cof) address.
Obviously, I think there ought to be a level of public decorum, and that there has been in former times, and that it is not lost, and that a public thread entitled: 'The Popping Pope Sweepstake' does not meet it. (Ya know, this provocative headline is not really something I can ignore, or choose not to read).
Media saturation doesn't really affect me as I don't watch TV but I think if there has been a loss due to human lives becoming media fodder, it is not an irreversible situation or a fait accompli. A few ppl mentioned on the Terri Schiavo thread that they admired the way Michael Schiavo wasn't joining the media circus. That's all it would take imo, a continuing trickle of ppl showing the world a different way - if ppl's attitudes can be molded one way, they can be molded another way...
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
I suppose you could blame it on Dave Allen, the Irish comic who died recently:
I'd see the Pope in a little chair being wheeled around, and I'd laugh. It reminds me of Allen's "Pope on the throne" sketches, and the "Pope goes waterskiing" bits.
And, today, I see the Pope's body being brought to St. Peter's, I see them lift him a bit to be seen by the throng and I think, "Gosh, what if he slipped down?"
Am I the only one who thought that? I don't think so.
I laugh at the memory of a Dave Allen sketch, and of it possibly being brought to life.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
(Ya know, this provocative headline is not really something I can ignore, or choose not to read).
I am making an effort these days to talk only from my own experience because really, that's all I've got. So I can't say what's true or not true for someone else. I am also trying to come to grips with the fact that I only have control over me, and not a lot of it at that. I certainly have no control over other people.
Therefore I am finding trying to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do, or how they should or shouldn't feel is a particularly pointless use of my time.
On the other hand I do find I have choices about what I do or how I feel.
There was a post the other day that I allowed myself to be really offended by. I wrote at least three scathing and irate responses. Then I says to self "Do you really want to get into this or do you just want to go on about your business?" I decided that I had the power to chose to ignore it. I am so glad I did. Had I not I wouldn't have changed the other poster's opinion in the slightest and I would have gotten myself all in a twit.
There seems to be a wonderful freedom and relaxation in laying down the burden of feeling I have to mind other people's business for them. And also in not giving the control of my emotions into the hands of other people by allowing myself to be offended by what they choose to do or choose to think.
I know this sounds kinda smarmy, but I thought I'd throw it out there for what it's worth.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
And, today, I see the Pope's body being brought to St. Peter's, I see them lift him a bit to be seen by the throng and I think, "Gosh, what if he slipped down?"
Am I the only one who thought that? I don't think so.
I've never heard of Dave Allen before, but I wondered the exact same thing when I saw the footage of them lifting the head of the bier so the crowds could get a look.
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Obviously, I think there ought to be a level of public decorum, and that there has been in former times, and that it is not lost, and that a public thread entitled: 'The Popping Pope Sweepstake' does not meet it.
I don't think these requirements of public decorum associated with the pope's death ought to be applied to the Ship. I think that it would be inappropriate for the Swiss guards to be making faces at the crowds lining up to pay their respects, but the Ship's boards are a different public forum, and here I think it's altogether appropriate to make jokes. I still think you're trying to make everyone adhere to standards that not everyone recognizes as important or useful, imposing what feels right to you.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
I was about to ask if anybody could make obnoxious, childish, asinine personal attacks on this holy thread or if it required a special dispensation. This before sharing my own particular fart in church.
Then I read this: quote:
There seems to be a wonderful freedom and relaxation in laying down the burden of feeling I have to mind other people's business for them. And also in not giving the control of my emotions into the hands of other people by allowing myself to be offended by what they choose to do or choose to think.
Now I've a mind to have Sine beatified upon his death. I promise to find a large and ridiculously funny hat for him and a lovely string quartet for the occasion.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Oh for fuck's sake Gregory, knock off that "Dear Erin" crap. I'm not your dear anything, and posting on a message board is NOT writing a letter.
As to your "so?" remark... well, I'm somehow not surprised. I mean, after all, what would a thread be without you demanding that other people respect your sensibilities while simultaneously talking to us like we're your children or -- worse yet -- your particular congregation. You're not any sort of spiritual leader around here, so you can drop your lectures any old time.
Dear Erin and Fr Gregory
Please feel free to pull each other's pigtails and stamp on each other's toes in Hell.
Thanks ever so much.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I was about to ask if anybody could make obnoxious, childish, asinine personal attacks on this holy thread or if it required a special dispensation. This before sharing my own particular fart in church.
I don't give out special dispensations, Gort. I'm not in charge of beatifications either.
[ 05. April 2005, 06:41: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I wondered the exact same thing when I saw the footage of them lifting the head of the bier so the crowds could get a look.
I'm guessing there's a big strip of Velcro™ on the back of the cope. And we don't even want to know how they're keeping the miter on.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Obviously, I think there ought to be a level of public decorum, and that there has been in former times, and that it is not lost...
I could apply this sentiment to an awful lot of things that people don't want to see in public. Doesn't follow that it's right or even healthy. It is, in fact, very repressive.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
...I guess I’m coming from the position that levity doesn’t preclude solemnity.
Death is solemn. Death is going to remain solemn no matter what I do or don’t do. ...
Some people define "solemn" as (essentially) "pompous" and "serious" as "important". In this schema, death is "serious", but doesn't need to be "solemn".
I was at a memorial service once that had a clown. "Serious", also funny, but not at all "solemn".
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I wondered the exact same thing when I saw the footage of them lifting the head of the bier so the crowds could get a look.
I'm guessing there's a big strip of Velcro™ on the back of the cope. And we don't even want to know how they're keeping the miter on.
I suppose they could have used that silver hammer and a few silver nails.
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
There's a logical fallacy that goes "everyone believes X is true, therefore it must be true."
I'm sure there is, but no-one here is doing it.
quote:
You're definitely in the majority, Ken.
I am? When did the majority of people become Christians? Never mind Calvinists with universalist tinges?
quote:
I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong, but my money is on God and Jesus, not death and hell.
So is mine, but I prefer to base it on what he gives us in the Gospels and the Bible, not a mixture of my private fantasies and New Age fluffy-bunny waffle.
And I certainly would not make your claim that everyone who suffers from sickness or who dies only suffers because they have fallen short of your elevated state of perfection. The world is real, not some Gnostic stage-show put on by a mendacious godlet for the benefit of a super-spiritual elite of ex-hippy Pelagians. And Jesus quite clearly tells us in the Gospels that people do not die or suffer only because of they are greater sinners than anyone else.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And I certainly would not make your claim that everyone who suffers from sickness or who dies only suffers because they have fallen short of your elevated state of perfection. The world is real, not some Gnostic stage-show put on by a mendacious godlet for the benefit of a super-spiritual elite of ex-hippy Pelagians. And Jesus quite clearly tells us in the Gospels that people do not die or suffer only because of they are greater sinners than anyone else.
Thanks, ken. I'm sure AFF is a very nice person, but I'm not sure she realizes how unbelievably offensive it is to suggest that people (such as my mother) who suffered from cancer, or people such as the millions who die from it were just not elevated and enlightened enough to overcome death.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
All this talk of taste reminds me of when two weeks after one of those limitlessly tragic things to which life on earth seems to tend - friend's young husband died, leaving her with small children - the crematorium sent her a:
Customer Satisfaction Survey.
We both thought this was pretty funny. If you don't laugh, you'd be crying all the time.
[ 05. April 2005, 16:16: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Hi Laura,
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. I really am a nice person. I wish you would pop by the CoF board so we could chat realtime, the board doesn't always give the most accurate view of a person.
I do most humbly submit, though, that you are the one taking offense. I fail to see how I give it. You imply that I think people are stupid when they suffer and die. That's not it at all, and I would hardly be a Christian for thinking so, let alone saying so but if that's how you insist on interpreting my POV then I can't prevent you. I'm just sorry you see it that way, because I like you.
People have their own experiences for reasons of their own which are between them and God. Not my place to judge whether they are "enlightened". In fact, I doubt you and I even have the same definition of the word. For me, it means something very literal, as in "Made lighter, less burdened, more levity, less weight". NOT "more bright" as in "less dull" in the intellectual or spiritual attainment sense, which you seem to think I am implying.
That's why I always made it a pun "en-LIGHT-ened".
The rewards of heaven don't go to the smartest or most spiritual, at least I'm smart enough to figure that out. They go to those who are most prepared to receive them (have their lamp wicks trimmed). For me this means it is a concrete, physical state of be-ing, not an intellecual or spiritual abstraction. I may be a bloody fool for seeing life the way I do, but all I'm trying to communicate is that it really works for me.
Shalom
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
don't want to get involved in this discussion at all, but i do want to say, vikki, that snopes.com verified the belgian thing about bush and the chimps as true. make of it what you will.
ok, i will add one other thing. i notice several people have said that their families do run pools on when someone's going to die and etc. but i haven't seen anyone saying that they wouldn't mind if total strangers ran a pool on when their loved ones would die, or etc.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
AFF: I'm not the only one -- 'twas ken who initially brought up the implication of what you are saying. And the implication is clear. Your clarification has only deepened that impression. If only these sad losers had followed your enlightened lead and decided they would not die, or if only they were as you say, able as you are (and they are not) to receive God's gifts, then they would still be alive. I think that's making a judgment on another's ability to accept God's gifts. What we're saying is, your version of Christianity is wholly unwarranted by scripture (except in the extreme out-of-context way you use it) and so it seems a bit much for you not only to flog it here, but also to suggest that people who die are somehow less able than you to accept what God has to offer.
And thanks for your kind offer of chat in the Cafe, but alas as I am not immortal, time permits only one web-based time commitment, and this is the one I've chosen.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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