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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pastoral Response: Gay Teenagers in the Heartland
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
A most impressive straw man, jlg.... congratulations.
Well, I wasn't trying to set up a strawman, just trying to think of something that might cause those of you who believe that there is only one right way to live (your way, as it happens) to at least stop and reconsider a bit. This thread is supposed to be about Pastoral Response, and I guess I feel that pastoral response should acknowledge outcomes, not just whether the correct party line has been delivered.
I have also been trying to make the point that when any person feels that something about them probably wouldn't be readily accepted by their church community, that person is going to be feeling emotionally vulnerable and unhappy to begin with. It is therefore important that any pastoral response should have the goal of not just giving reassurance to the person that they are loved and accepted just as they are, but doing everything possible until it is obvious to anyone and everyone that the person truly believes that and feels 100% sure of that love and acceptance.
In my opinion, that should be the first, and until it is achieved the only, pastoral goal; any other issues can be dealt with afterwards.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
OK jlg, fair enough; in practice I would like to hope that my first response to the 'putative teenager' coming out to me would be to give them a hug...
And in that context I would hope that they would know what the church teaches on the issue so I wouldn't need to tell them! Does that make sense?
Because that is what Jesus did; when he spent time with 'tax collectors and sinners' he did so in the context of their being clear that was not thereby commending what they did - and that context was only provided because the 'church' of his day was clear on the issue. Having a clearly proclaimed line, he could reach across it without confusing the message.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Thanks, ES.
I think it's a safe bet that most people seeking counsel from a pastor have at least some idea what the church teaches. (That's the point Chast has been making.) And even if by chance the person wasn't 100% clear, any misunderstanding or ignorance would eventually come out if there were continued conversations, which would be a reasonable time (IMHO) to reiterate those teachings.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Good post stuff ES (I can't believe I just wrote that!) even if I would want to explore some of its points a little further.
But, reverting even more to the original question, if you make your position known to all in advance, then I can just barely see the anguished teen considering talking to you. At a stretch, if everything FishFish has said about his own attitude is known in advance to the teen, I can imagine the same thing happening -- though that is less likely.
But if you are part of communities that act (not talk) otherwise -- especially if your preachers and pastors give evidence of any other position -- then no gay teen, no questioning teen, in his right mind will come to you or to the community. And you cannot honestly expect he would, in these circumstances.
In reality (as opposed to FishFish's theoretical world), gay teens are going to "know" that the church doesn't want them, and will condemn them. In the situation we were talking about at the beginning, this kid had grown up in the church -- what are the chances that he would look for support or for counsel to a community whose leaders had been condemning people like him since he could remember? Far more likely he will reject the community, and the idea of Christianity as sustained hypocrisy, and disappear. Which is in fact what happened, at elast in the short run. Surely this is obvious and predictable. (Please note, what the teen "knows" may be wrong, but it will be what he acts on.)
Now I really don't think this is true only about evangelical churches, though I suspect there are fewer Anglican or RC or Presbyterian preachers likely to talk about the subject at length or with heat. By and large I think all evangelical and most mainline churches have been written off by gay men and women, unless they are very committed to Jesus and/or have met people who will walk with them and love them without judging -- not necessarily agreeing with them.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Suze
Ship's Barmaid
# 5639
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
Please don't try and paint me and all conservative Christians as one issue, Bible thumping, bulls in china shops, who are unable to listen, or show love. Please do understand we are trying to walk the tightrope of love and truth. You may not agree with my understanding of the Bible. But please try and respect our attempts to be loving in the way we apply the truth we hold to.
Sorry for not responding to this before now.... Wednesday is a long work day for me without much time to check the boards.
I come from a fairly conservative background and don't label all conservative Christians in this way, and certainly it isn't my view of you. I do hear your struggle to reconcile a loving, accepting response with your honest understanding of Bible teaching - it is indeed a tightrope. I just wonder if in trying to walk the tightrope folk sometimes don't put themselves under impossible pressure.
I don't think both responses are mutually exclusive, it is possible to offer sensitive support while staying true to your beliefs. It is, in my view, more about recognising when you have earned the right to speak these into the lives of those you seek to minister to - and accepting that in some situations that it may not ever be your place to do this.
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' You stay here and I'll go look for God, that won't be hard cos I know where he's not, and I will bring him back with me , then he'll listen , then he'll see' Richard Shindell
Posts: 2603 | From: where the angels sleep | Registered: Mar 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Suze:
I do hear your struggle to reconcile a loving, accepting response with your honest understanding of Bible teaching - it is indeed a tightrope. I just wonder if in trying to walk the tightrope folk sometimes don't put themselves under impossible pressure... I don't think both responses are mutually exclusive, it is possible to offer sensitive support while staying true to your beliefs. It is, in my view, more about recognising when you have earned the right to speak these into the lives of those you seek to minister to - and accepting that in some situations that it may not ever be your place to do this.
Yes! One might gather from this thread that a few are dwelling with a frisson of fascination on the nature of the tightrope they plan to walk personally. It's as though they're itching officiously to audition in front of the first callow 14-year-old they meet for whom it might conceivably be relevant, to see how well they perform.
If our premise is love the sinner, hate the sin, then don't we first need some evidence that a person has either committed the sin in question or is about to do so, before it makes any sense to bring it up? What would constitute such evidence? How would we acquire it? And even if we became privy to it, what circumstances, other than parenthood or having the subject's cure of souls, dictate that we personally should be the ones to 'walk the tightrope?'
Maybe it's naive to cite a classic kindergarten teacher's admonition, but it applies to the situations of most of us: "If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all."
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Alogon
The only thing we should ever say about sin at a PERSONAL level is:- "I am a sinner ... amongst all, the first." Period. Everyone else is a matter for them and God. Period.
If they come to us we show them mercy as we desire to have mercy shown to us. What actually constitutes sin is learnt in our own soul first and not from the Rule Book. We should only be able to see the good in others.
As we deepen in self-understanding .... an awareness that only comes through personal faith in the Lover of humankind ... that ability to see the good in all grows stronger. It is not Pollyanna-ish though, because it is forged in the death of our own ego ... and, my God, that healing hurts.
[ 01. November 2004, 18:15: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
The only thing we should ever say about sin at a PERSONAL level is:- "I am a sinner ... amongst all, the first." Period. Everyone else is a matter for them and God. Period.
If they come to us we show them mercy as we desire to have mercy shown to us. What actually constitutes sin is learnt in our own soul first and not from the Rule Book. We should only be able to see the good in others.
As we deepen in self-understanding .... an awareness that only comes through personal faith in the Lover of humankind ... that ability to see the good in all grows stronger. It is not Pollyanna-ish though, because it is forged in the death of our own ego ... and, my God, that healing hurts.
Father Gregory---if only you Orthodox would ordain women, I would swim the Bosphorus (sp?) in a heartbeat...
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Dear Alogon
The only thing we should ever say about sin at a PERSONAL level is:- "I am a sinner ... amongst all, the first." Period. Everyone else is a matter for them and God. Period.
Father G, I am afraid this simply sounds like motherhood and apple pie Christianity to me.
What DO the Orthodox do about the numerous Scripture references to the church HAVING to take notice of another's sin?
Fair enough, say this sin is not one worth pointing out (I understand that, even though I don't agree with it) but this "I only ever consider my own sin" - just seems, well, unbiblical to me.
Can you see remotely what I am on about?
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
What DO the Orthodox do about the numerous Scripture references to the church HAVING to take notice of another's sin?
My point was that there's a difference between "the church having to take notice of another's sin" and individuals blurting things out at the behest of a lurid imagination.
If two teenage boys have enjoyed a fumbling tumble in the privacy of their own bedrooms, how does this "sin" come to the notice of the church? Please explain that first, then we might have something to discuss about how to deal with it.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Leprechaun
That's why I referred to the personal dimension. Alogon's hypothetical fumblers would have to come to confession first if they felt so moved. They would presumably do this on the basis of what their hearts witnessed to them in the context of the Christian community and its teachings.
I am not at all in the practice of calling all fumblers to take one step forward. Ideally, everyone would do that (in respect of different examples). I was not in my post addressing what ought formally to be taught in the churches. No doubt we would have different or similar versions of that. The connection between teaching and pastoral care is a complex one and not resolved simply by saying X=Y and Y=X.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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