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Originally posted by Saviour Tortoise:
Letting them fall into disrepair or allowing them to become merely museums would be like suggesting that the Bach B Minor mass is not really important any more because its getting on for 400 years old. Or saying that those drawings made by early Christians on the walls of the Catacombs don't really matter. Or saying that all that stuff Michelangelo painted is just a load of old painting really.

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Originally posted by Wood:
In fact, the "evangelistic service" is in my opinion almost entirely useless, both as a means of outreach and as a vehicle for communal worship. Church buildings are there for the support and nourishment of Christians; cathedrals doubly so.

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Originally posted by Saviour Tortoise:
Letting them fall into disrepair or allowing them to become merely museums would be like suggesting that the Bach B Minor mass is not really important any more because its getting on for 400 years old. Or saying that those drawings made by early Christians on the walls of the Catacombs don't really matter. Or saying that all that stuff Michelangelo painted is just a load of old painting really.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
large buildings which, as Wood so rightly said, aren't actually helping us reach people.

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I ask this because frankly,, given the culture in which we live, church buildings themselves are almost entirely the province of Christians meeting together to worship in spirit and in truth; evangelistic outreach as such is best served outside of church services, either by individuals or by organised groups.

In fact, the "evangelistic service" is in my opinion almost entirely useless, both as a means of outreach and as a vehicle for communal worship. Church buildings are there for the support and nourishment of Christians; cathedrals doubly so.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
large buildings which, as Wood so rightly said, aren't actually helping us reach people.

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Did Wood say that these large buildings (or any large buildings) aren't actually helping us reach people? I seem to have missed that. Wood, did you actually say that?

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I don't believe people see the glory of God in buildings, no matter how grand they are - but in Jesus.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Wood said this

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I ask this because frankly,, given the culture in which we live, church buildings themselves are almost entirely the province of Christians meeting together to worship in spirit and in truth; evangelistic outreach as such is best served outside of church services, either by individuals or by organised groups.

In fact, the "evangelistic service" is in my opinion almost entirely useless, both as a means of outreach and as a vehicle for communal worship. Church buildings are there for the support and nourishment of Christians; cathedrals doubly so.

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Perhaps I misunderstood? Wood?

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Ok, my OP didn't really get to the point.

I have no doubt that some people are helped by cathedrals. I was not suggesting that because I am not we should close them down.
What I was thinking, is that they are a very expensive way of not doing what (IMO) we should be doing; they do not lend themselves to ministry amongst the poor, or to postmodern kids IME. They seem to do very little (at least where I live) to reach the middle aged and old, because they are cold and inaccessible to families.
So yes, while I can see that some people find them useful, is it really worth our while paying all this money for them instead of for - say homeless or student ministry, housing old people, and so on and so forth?
I ask because a lot of the anti-Jensen stuff in MW, rested on the assumption that there is a pre assumed right for things to be as they have always been. Esepcially when it comes to cathedrals.
Now if we can see that they are bringing people to Christ, then spend the money - but considering how much else we have to do, if they don't - well why?

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
It wouldn't. It would be like saying, as we do with those things, these places are beautiful and should be preserved, while not being particularly useful any more.

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I suppose some of this is my eccesiology - but I don't believe people see the glory of God in buildings, no matter how grand they are - but in Jesus. So it is Jesus being presented in a way people can understand that will display God's glory. if cathedrals are aiming to do that job, they will, surely, always fail?

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Making them museums wouldn't be getting rid of our story - far from it, it would be preserving it, but losing the burden of large buildings which, as Wood so rightly said, aren't actually helping us reach people.

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All of the things - stained glass, music, community actvity can be done in these buildings without Christians having to spend thousands of pounds/dollars preserving them. Why should we?

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From the 'Old church/new church thread: Anselmina: Why shouldn't the gospel be proclaimed and the Lord worshipped in a fantastically historical building representative of some of the best God-given arts and skills given to mankind down through the centuries, and what's more dedicated to his glory. And to see a cathedral as somehow being divorced from the community that it is inevitably part of is a bit like saying that 'church' is nothing more than a building. When one looks at a cathedral building you see nothing more than a tiny tip of a very large community and its often wide-reaching influence on the city it serves.

Surely, we are able to see beyond fashions of stonework and architecture to see through to the reality of gospel work and missioning that has been going on, and continues?

Archive the building by all means, but where are you going to put the people who worship there, visit during the week to pray or keep silence or leave prayer requests, who sleep by the boilers during winter, who wander in to ask questions of the clergy or vergers or lay workers, or scrounge a sandwich or a cup of tea off the Archdeacon or canon-in-residence? Where do the community exhibitions for local art work, industry and business, and social issues go; the children have their Holy Week or Advent workshops; the bellringers, singers, composers, musicians learn their craft specifically to the glory of God? Where else will a venue for huge services, and doubling as concert hall, community hall be as easily and accessibly found? And - here's the point - where can we find all this in the one building, right there in the centre of a city population? We'd have to build a great big building..... but wait, we already have. It's the cathedral, and what do you know it's already got God's name on it.
<snippety snip>

Many people do indeed make the mistake of looking at a church building, as if it were a National Trust building; merely representative of a way of life that is no longer applicable or useful, to be consigned to museum-status, without taking into account the community and fellowship life that often revolves around the work and witness of the members of the congregation who meet there. A very big mistake to make.

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I suppose some of this is my eccesiology - but I don't believe people see the glory of God in buildings, no matter how grand they are - but in Jesus.

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So you're saying that art is not useful?

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What I was thinking, is that they are a very expensive way of not doing what (IMO) we should be doing; they do not lend themselves to ministry amongst the poor, or to postmodern kids IME. They seem to do very little (at least where I live) to reach the middle aged and old, because they are cold and inaccessible to families.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Wood - yes. That is my assumption. I do think while a church activity can't be justified in terms of reaching people who don't know Jesus with hos message and practical demonstrations thereof, then they have to be rethunk. No matter how much Christians like them.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
All of the things - stained glass, music, community actvity can be done in these buildings without Christians having to spend thousands of pounds/dollars preserving them. Why should we?

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Cathedral staff really must get out of that nasty habit of forcing people in through the doors by gunpoint so they just have to contribute to the upkeep of the building .

If putting a couple of quid into the donations or entrance fee box is your objection - don't do it, or don't visit Cathedrals. Most Cathedral communities have 'Friends of St.....' organizations who are dedicated to fund-raising for their church, and like any ordinary congregation will have people who gift-aid, freewill donate, bequest money etc.

If it's the scandal of your money going to a cause you don't understand or believe in, then keep it in your pocket. Or lobby the Lottery or, English Heritage or other publicly funded organizations that sometimes pass on dosh to churches.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Because I want to avoid re-creating the wheel I've copied my last response to Leprechaun's last angst-ridden plea of 'why Cathedrals'. (I wouldn't mind knowing what specifically Leprechaun has against Cathedral churches and their communities. If they're such a dreadful thing then just put together a protest group and form a charity; something like Christians Against Keeping Cathedrals might give people the right idea of what you're about. Or alternatively get properly and actively involved with a Cathedral community and find out first-hand what they're for.)

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Originally posted by GreyFace:
Did you read my post, Lep? Just wondering. I think Cathedrals are a wonderful tool for evangelism.

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GF, yes I did. I pray that there are many more like you. I have never met another one. I am willing to concede that a lack of research may be the root of my problem.

Wood, at least part of the Lord's supper's purpose is to "proclaim the Lord's death". And all of the things you mention are for the encouragement of Christians, but why do Christians need encouraged? So that they will be more effective witnesses, in word and deed surely. In sense of course there is much more "to it" than what you say, but in a sense, not that much more.

Ken, GF has alerted me to the "advertising potential" of cathedrals. He is the first I have ever come across. As I say, that may be lack of research on my part, but many many non-Christians I know have been to cathedrals to visit and never once considered Jesus. That's my beef.

And I'm glad to hear that there are cathedrals doing good stuff, I really am. The ones I have lived bside (now, in total, 3) did nothing of the sort that I could see, despite my best efforts at finding out. If I have based my view on an unrepresentative sample I apologise.
My point remains, however, that there would be many many cheaper ways of doing the same thing. Call me a Thatcherite if you will, but that seems a good enough reason to me to ask the question.

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Oh come on! One can't ask the question without being accused of being on a campaign?
I, as a nonconformist, church that meets in a school, type, am genuinely confounded by the huge amounts of money the C of E pays towards maintaining these huge edifices. I genuinely want to know what benefit they serve to the church's mission. I was under the impression that finding out what others think was the point of the Ship.

And I know some of these things were addressed on another thread, but mixed in with a whole lot of stuff, and I wanted to have a discussion just about this. Why is that such an irritation to you?

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Wood - yes. That is my assumption. I do think while a church activity can't be justified in terms of reaching people who don't know Jesus with hos message and practical demonstrations thereof, then they have to be rethunk. No matter how much Christians like them.

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Originally posted by dyfrig:
It's a curious effect of having a state religion that tried to control other churches' practices deemed to be seditious by making it illegal to hold "church" in a non-public setting - we think that attendance at a church service is a right rather than a duty of discipleship.

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Originally posted by Wood:
Actually, I think my point was that they're not actually for evangelism, and that evangelistic services/ meetings are these days largely ineffective, irrespective of where they're held.

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They have an entirely different purpose, being for the nourishment of believers meeting together to worship. Which was one of the things the church was supposed to do, last time I checked.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
ST - Nothing you say makes me see why Christians should be under an obligation to preserve and keep and pay for these buildings.

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And certainly no reason why they should continue to run them the same way forever.

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And you can say "utter rubbish" all you like -

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Thankyou. I will.

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but is your friend that you took with you to Kings a Christian today?

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And if so is it REALLY because of his impression of God from that building rather than an encounter with the living Lord Jesus?

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Originally posted by dyfrig:
I don't really know the answer to Leprechaun's economic dilemma.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Oh come on! One can't ask the question without being accused of being on a campaign?

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<sigh> I suppose you couldn't have worked out by reading the emboldened capital letters of the suggested title for your 'campaign' that I was being sarcastic ?

And I didn't accuse you of being on a campaign (oh, the joy of reading what is actually written); I suggested that if it was something you really did feel strongly about you might start a protest group.

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I, as a nonconformist, church that meets in a school, type, am genuinely confounded by the huge amounts of money the C of E pays towards maintaining these huge edifices. I genuinely want to know what benefit they serve to the church's mission. I was under the impression that finding out what others think was the point of the Ship.

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And have there been answers offered? Yes? On this thread as with your other 'I personally don't see the point of it so why does it still exist' thread? Yes? However, you don't appear to be finding out 'what others think'; you appear to be saying that something that, at best you don't understand, and at worst you have judged to be unfit, shouldn't be around, and how can this atrocity possibly be justified. That's the tone I get from your posts. And that's the tone I'm responding to.

I'm still interested in why you seem to be so aggrieved that a particular member of the Church family should be determined to keep a rather successful flagship style of ministry going, mainly out of their own pocket and voluntary donation. JOKE ALERT: Hit by a falling piece of masonry one day as you passed by a Cathedral ?

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And I know some of these things were addressed on another thread, but mixed in with a whole lot of stuff, and I wanted to have a discussion just about this. Why is that such an irritation to you?

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Originally posted by Wood:
Please, please, please stop being so paranoid. You're clearly a nice guy. So why do you respond with such suspicion to what people are saying? There isn't a liberal conspiracy here. Nor are we out to get you. You wanted dialogue; you got dialogue, in the form of robust debate...

...And what about the rest of us? She isn't the only one who has engaged with your question. You wanted to know what we think, you got it. Now, please, dialogue with it.

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
[snip]
What I was thinking, is that they are a very expensive way of not doing what (IMO) we should be doing; they do not lend themselves to ministry amongst the poor, or to postmodern kids IME. They seem to do very little (at least where I live) to reach the middle aged and old, because they are cold and inaccessible to families.
So yes, while I can see that some people find them useful, is it really worth our while paying all this money for them instead of for - say homeless or student ministry, housing old people, and so on and so forth?
[snip]
Now if we can see that they are bringing people to Christ, then spend the money - but considering how much else we have to do, if they don't - well why?

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As one of those pomo kids... HEY! Don't you dare touch my cathedral!

I do have to admit, my experience with cathedrals in the United States is a bit different than with European cathedrals; my diocese dates to the late 19th c. but the building was erected in 1955 in the middle of downtown Sacramento. It only seats 750 people in the main sanctuary. The classroom buildings and attached medical center are at least four times larger than the cathedral itself. The classrooms are used by all sorts of community groups, and the Cathedral itself sponsors lecture series and free music concerts of sacred and secular music that are open to the public (and garner large turnouts). There are homeless outreaches, outreaches to the nearby business community, a strong Recovery ministry, and the Cathedral supports a local elementary school with volunteers and fundraising. From my experience, when you come to an event or use one of the services at the Cathedral, you are not asked, "Do you accept Jesus as your personal savior; watch out, your response will affect your level of service." which, unfortunately, I have seen happen at an evangelical pentecostal church I was involved with. However, the Cathedral and its community defintely are showing Christ to the world.

Here's an idea: you live near a cathedral. Infiltrate them. See where they need help in explaining the Good News. Explain Jesus' message to feed, clothe, bury, love. Open them up to families and poor and us poor pomo kids. (However, if you convince them to take down the crucifix for a OHP screen, you will have to answer to me. )

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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account

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Originally posted by phoenix_811:
Um, sorry if I'm a bit technical here, but isn't a cathedral any place that is the seat of a bishop? A cathedral could be a small shack if it is the main place that a bishop presides. I like worshiping in the big gothic cathedrals because, often, the accoustics are amazing and I always feel more worshipful when music is resounding. And they do tend to be places with deep spiritual roots and have worship conducive artwork and architecture. But I'm not sure that those qualities are what make them cathedrals. (Check the dictionary).

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