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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: I have a real problem with Hell!
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Father Gregory , so you really are a priest?
I have been to Greece several times and I've had many Greek and American Greek friends, but interestingly, they never discussed the Greek Orthodox Church. The Greek Orthodox church near us has a celebration every summer (I can't recall what it's called) where they have Greek food and entertainment and we really enjoy it. Even then, no one pushes the religion.
I've been around both Greek and Russian Orthodox Priests and it's funny but the Greek Orthodox priests were always friendly, but not the Russian priests. Needless to say my impression is very favorable and respectful toward the Greek Orthodox priests and the opposite with the Russian priests. I suppose that is how my feelings toward specific religions go. If I see a religion practicing the love and gentility of god, then I have the highest respect.
I noticed right away from your posts that you seem very gentle and now I know why. I suppose I make a rather contradictory atheist, but I really do feel a lot of affection for religious people who practice the love of god. I get very angry and sometimes even aggressive with forceful religious people. What still sticks in my mind is that if there were a god, he would have to be pure love. So I do agree with Alexander Kalomiros' point of view, but only with forceful Christians.
I've never heard a Greek Orthodox perspective. I hope you don't mind, but I'll ask you the only real question I have about god. In case you haven't read what I written, when I was twenty, late at night I went to the fantail of my ship and for hours I very painfully tried to connect with god and there was no answer. If there is a god, why wouldn't he answer?
I have since accepted that there is no god, not because I want to or because I reject god, it's because I have yet to receive an answer. I simply cannot believe on faith alone. I really am a doubting Thomas. I believe in the Bible it says something about blessed are those who see and believe, blessed more are those who do not see and believe. I don't mind being less blessed, but I haven't seen anything.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Grits:
You are a remarkably sweet and loving woman (at least you certainly seem that way) and you confuse the hell out of me (no pun intended). It is impossible for me to comprehend a loving person believing in a hell of eternal physical pain.
What has always come to mind when people talk about god as you do, is that the Bible is being very selectively read. To say that god will impose such a harsh hell is, in fact, putting their ideals and standards and judgments on him. I can't help but ask why the threat of such a horrific punishment is even necessary. Don't you believe in the love of god? Shouldn't that love be the reason people accept him and not fear? What repulsed me the most about our Baptist church was that they preached the fear of god.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
How can one accept the God of the Bible, in all His omniscience, and then turn around and try to fit Him into what they perceive to be "fair" and "loving"?
I look at the parable of the landowner in Matthew 20, when those hired early in the day complained because those hired late in the day were paid the same wages. He responded, "Friend, I am not being unfair to you... Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?... Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money?..." God gives the gift of salvation to all who will receive, but that gift can be rejected.
Look at His responses to Job: "Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?" How can we question God's plan? If I truly believe in the sovreignty of God, I have to believe in the plan He has set for us, whether it strikes the mind and heart of modern man as being equitable.
Jesus Christ believed in hell(Matt. 5:22; Luke 16:23). He believed there are those who will spend eternity there (Matt. 25:41-46; Mark 9:43).
God does love us. He sent us His Son to provide us a way to avoid the gates of hell. That gift IS His love.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
How can one accept the God of the Bible, in all His omniscience, and then turn around and try to fit Him into what they perceive to be "fair" and "loving"?
Alternatively, if you can't fit part of his fairness and loving into your perception of "fair" and "loving", then you can't actually know anything about God at all. God works by analogy, and the analogy is to our human emotional experience, mostly (in my view).
I agree with you on Matthew 20.
quote:
Look at His responses to Job: "Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?" How can we question God's plan? If I truly believe in the sovreignty of God, I have to believe in the plan He has set for us, whether it strikes the mind and heart of modern man as being equitable.
Job seemed to want to question God's plan...why is it in the Bible if that story is irrelevant?
quote:
Jesus Christ believed in hell(Matt. 5:22; Luke 16:23). He believed there are those who will spend eternity there (Matt. 25:41-46; Mark 9:43).
That's not what he says in the latter passages. He says they will go to "eternal punishment" in "eternal fire". That doesn't necessarily mean they will "spend eternity there" because eternal could be used in the simpler sense of "being without beginning or end; existing outside of time." Eternality could be defined as being "outside time", not "going on forever and ever". Check your facts if you're going to get literal.
quote:
God does love us. He sent us His Son to provide us a way to avoid the gates of hell. That gift IS His love.
What a cruel universe.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Grits:
One of the reasons I am skeptical of Biblical quotes is because of the numerous translations and especially the fact that King James most certainly took liberties with his translation. I may be mistaken, but I do believe the most accurate translation of the original books is the Greek Orthodox. That's because I do believe (if my memory serves me right) most of the books were originally written in Greek and the rest were first translated into Greek.
It is a historical fact that the King James IV & I version is not an exact translation. At the time of King James, Christianity (especially his version) was a very violet and ruthless religion and that certainly got put into the King James Bible. King James was a staunch authoritarian in believing in the divine right of Kings (harsh, absolute and unquestioned authority). The King James version of god's authority and power correlates directly with his belief in the power of the King. He makes god and even Jesus more monarchs than gods.
I just hope I'm not digging myself a hole here. If someone challenges me who really knows the history, I'm going to be forced to do some research to refresh my memory. But it isn't that hard to rip the King James Bible to shreds with historical facts. I see the King James version as the word of King James, not the word of god.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Siena
Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574
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Posted
Well, a couple of points -
King James didn't DO the translation, he commissioned the translation. And while it certainly has its issues, it was state of the art scholarship for its time. If you're truly interested, check out the book "God's Secretaries"
And most of the other modern translations went back to the original language and started from there, so King James' inadequacies aren't particularly relevant.
Sorry. History geek mode over now. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Regards, Sienna
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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson
Posts: 709 | From: San Diego, California, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
I agree. And I rarely quote from the KJV. You can use any translation you prefer. I think the meaning stays the same.
Yes, the NT was written in Greek, but I don't think that gives the Greek Orthodox translation a real advantage.
Rob, let's see... I don't think God works by analogy. I think He works by spirituality through reality. God is not an analogy, nor is His Word, nor is His plan.
Yes, indeed, Job did want to question God's plan, and look at the answer he received! How dare we question the plan of the Creator of everything! We have become so empowered, so self-sufficient, so self-fulfilling, that we simply can't bring ourselves to let Him be Lord of all. Why, what would that make us -- chopped liver? We have forgotten and buried the Creator and recreated Him as a somewhat admired older brother who is really cool, as long as he does what we want. God have mercy on us.
Anyway you want to interpret eternal, eternity, eternal fire, let's face it: Jesus said it's there, it's real, somebody's going there, I'm here to help you keep out of it. What's to really interpret there?
quote:
What a cruel universe.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
If you're going to be a Christian, you've got to keep it in perspective. It's not about this universe.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sienna:
If you're truly interested, check out the book "God's Secretaries"
I have that book, Sienna, sent to me by one of my favorite Shipmates! It is a great book.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
The KJV is a translation of a translation of a translation. (Hebrew to Septuagint to Vulgate to KJV) If you want to take the Bible literally, it would make a lot more sense to get something a tad closer to the original, regardless of how pretty the KJV's words are. Although it may have been "state of the art scholarship for its time," we have made a step or two in the last 400 years, in discovery of more old manuscripts and archeological finds among other things.
[oops, cross-posted]
[ 30. May 2004, 05:02: Message edited by: Zeke ]
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
1. The King James (of the OT) was not translated from the Vulgate but from the best Masoretic hebrew Texts available at the time.
2. The Vulgate was not translated from the Septuagint (LXX) but from the Hebrew that Jerome was able to find in the 4th century when he visited the Jews of Palestine. The only exception is that books he couldn't find Hebrew originals for, he translated from the Greek. This is what gave rise to the "deuterocanonical" label which eventually culminated in those books being tossed out of Protestant Bibles in the 19th century.
Not sure where you're getting your information from, Zeke?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Siena
Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574
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Posted
/tangent/
yes, it's one of my favorites, too, Grits.
/tangent off/
So basically, Thomas, what you seem to be saying on several threads is that, until God behaves in the manner you demand and furnishes the proof you think any reasonable person has a right to require, you refuse to believe in God.
Please let me know if I've misstated - I'm trying to understand your arguments here.
Regards,
Sienna
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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson
Posts: 709 | From: San Diego, California, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Siena
Ship's Bluestocking
# 5574
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Posted
Zeke - I wasn't defending the KJV as a model of accurate translations (certainly not my preferred version, in any event), merely pointing out that TDF's characterization of it wasn't correct (and giving credit to the scholars who did take part - it was a massive undertaking).
Although the words are pretty.....
Regards,
Sienna
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The lives of Christ's poor people are starved and stunted; their wages are low; their houses often bad and insanitary and their minds full of darkness and despair. These are the real disorders of the Church. Charles Marson
Posts: 709 | From: San Diego, California, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
I was told this in a class, perhaps I had better check with the teacher to make sure I understood correctly what was said. My understanding was that the KJV relied heavily upon the Vulgate, though it wasn't entirely based on it, and also that Jerome's main source was LXX. Evidently my information is debatable.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Yes, the NT was written in Greek, but I don't think that gives the Greek Orthodox translation a real advantage.
There isn't, as far as I know, any Greek Orthodox (or Russian Orthodox, or any other Orthodox) translation of the NT into English. We mostly use the RSV or the NKJV, and mostly avoid the NIV and any paraphrases. But there's not an official "Orthodox" translation.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sienna:
/tangent/
yes, it's one of my favorites, too, Grits.
/tangent off/
So basically, Thomas, what you seem to be saying on several threads is that, until God behaves in the manner you demand and furnishes the proof you think any reasonable person has a right to require, you refuse to believe in God.
Please let me know if I've misstated - I'm trying to understand your arguments here.
Regards,
Sienna
I'm not demanding anything. Simply putting it, how can I believe in god if I don't even know he exists?
Your tone is very similar to many others; who do you think you are to ask or question anything about god? I don't think I'm irrelevant and unimportant.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Simply putting it, how can I believe in god if I don't even know he exists?
Actually it's the things you don't KNOW that you BELIEVE in. Nobody says, "I believe I live at such-and-such an address." You say "I live at such-and-such an address," or "I know I live at such-and-such an address."
I believe in God because I don't KNOW for sure, and yet still have decided to believe based on the inconclusive evidence I've seen, because that evidence seems better than the inconclusive evidence which points in the other direction.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
We mostly use the RSV or the NKJV, and mostly avoid the NIV and any paraphrases. But there's not an official "Orthodox" translation.
Well, I wondered about that. The NKJV is my current version of choice.
Thomas, I think the only thing you're lacking is... faith. You've got to let go of your inhibitions and preconceptions, and let yourself be free to believe on a spiritual level.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...
[ 30. May 2004, 07:06: Message edited by: Grits ]
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
If you're going to be a Christian, you've got to keep it in perspective. It's not about this universe.
What universe is it about then? God doesn't live in a separate universe, he lives "above" the universe and is pushing into this one until he consumes it all with his Being.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
OK. I'll be less poetic: It's not about this life or this body. If you have been saved, your soul has already begun it's life that will never end. That's the life and the "body" with which we should concern ourselves. That's what is going to be around forever.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I believe in God because I don't KNOW for sure, and yet still have decided to believe based on the inconclusive evidence I've seen, because that evidence seems better than the inconclusive evidence which points in the other direction.
Same here. I think being a Christian isn't like seeing a brilliant flash of light and a booming voice, "Yea, verily yea. I art God. Believe, repent. Worship me."
Rather, sometimes, it is sitting down, taking a deep breath, looking at beauty and love in the world. And it is "looking at the evidence" - whether it be the beauty of scripture, Christ's resurrection, and the power of changed lives.
Of course, it is totally nice feeling warm and squishy inside feeling that God loves you and that you're in his hands for all eternity.
There's been a couple of times, where I have to say, "God, I believe in you whether you like or not." Those are the times when there are no warm, squishy feelings. Those are the times when I feel abandoned and forgotten by God - when I'm in pain and despair. And those are the times when I look at the evidence for God again - and even though I can't feel anything in my heart, my head/logic tells me its still more plausible for God's existence than against it.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
If I heard a voice booming "Yea, verily, I art God" I'd be deeply suspicious.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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krill
Shipmate
# 6537
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Posted
ThomasDF, man you sound exactly like I did when I was younger. This brings back memories.
I was raised a Lutheran most my life, attended church most every sunday, and had no clue why I was a Christian. I didn't have that perpetual (goofy) smile plastered on my face all the time, like the Christian Club members at school. Quoting scripture and taking about bunnies or some other non-sexual, pseudo innocent, mundane subject.
I believed in God, I just didn't know to what benefit. Why do I have to choose either Heaven or Hell, did I ask to be here? Talk about giving us a choice, where was my choice before I was born, cause I know I wouldn't have chosen this!!! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
But, as an intellectual(questionable) and a voracious reader, I could not discount the existance of something more than just coincidence and luck, with a lot of we're not sures thrown in for clarification. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
So, to that end I decided to try one scripture, sorry got to use one, and see what happens. I decided to seek God heart, mind, body, and soul. I hear the Preachers tellin' me about being born again, and how its like the difference between selling a house but keeping one room to yourself and selling the whole house.
Now when I gave it all up to God, I knew in that moment that He was real. Because He gave me something that I thought I would never have. I cannot prove it, as it is a personal experience, but I can say that no one will ever convince me that I just imagined it or that I was hypnotized.
I told you this for one reason. If you want to know if there is a God, you have to ask the questions that you are asking. But though you will seek the "Guru on the mountain top", you will eventually come to realize that you are the only one that can answer that question. You don't learn by being told, but by experiencing and observing.
As for Hell, yes I think it exists, but I like a quote from the movie "The Prophecy", when Lucifer said that we Humans never understood that, Hell, is being seperated from God. I think it's more of a denial of the things you lusted for in life, while roasting over a toasty fire. We will still be hungry, no food. thirsty, no drink, lonely, no companions, (which kills the party thread) as its theological opposite, Heaven, is never needing for anything.
And as some others state, I believe that on Judgement Day, God will let you decide where you really belong. You create your own Hell.
And finally, and please don't roast me for not knowing the Chp. & Vs., but, Jesus tells some people when they ask Him to describe Heaven, "You can not know what it is like." So any dissertation is purely speculative, and that's scriptural.(Okay, so I used two, sue me) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
You have just begun your journey, but he that truly seeks the Lord should look away from Him to find Him.(a stupid, on-the-spot, fortune cookie, proverb ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
Good Luck & God Bless...oops
[ 30. May 2004, 14:51: Message edited by: krill ]
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I knew more when first I came to this life, this not a search for knowledge, but a journey of rediscovery
Posts: 78 | From: Houston, Texas, USA | Registered: May 2004
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krill
Shipmate
# 6537
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Posted
sowwy, sowwy, sowwy, but the edit time ran out before I could add this...
In the final analysis, we all choose a GOD. A God is the thing that we desire most. If the God we choose just happens to be "The God", then we go to Heaven.(another gross oversimplification)
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I knew more when first I came to this life, this not a search for knowledge, but a journey of rediscovery
Posts: 78 | From: Houston, Texas, USA | Registered: May 2004
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
So I do agree with Alexander Kalomiros' point of view, but only with forceful Christians.
Can you rephrase that? It doesn't look too coherent.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Simply putting it, how can I believe in god if I don't even know he exists?
Actually it's the things you don't KNOW that you BELIEVE in. Nobody says, "I believe I live at such-and-such an address." You say "I live at such-and-such an address," or "I know I live at such-and-such an address."
I believe in God because I don't KNOW for sure, and yet still have decided to believe based on the inconclusive evidence I've seen, because that evidence seems better than the inconclusive evidence which points in the other direction.
That inconclusive evidence that is the basis of your belief in not sufficient for me to believe. But then I don't understand the whole guessing game. Each religion believes that their inconclusive evidence is perfectly clear, but they all can't be right.
So, if I am to believe in god, what can I base that belief on?
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Thomas, I think the only thing you're lacking is... faith. You've got to let go of your inhibitions and preconceptions, and let yourself be free to believe on a spiritual level.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
Like I asked Mousethief, what do I base that faith on? I can have faith that my cat is god, but that doesn't make my cat god. And how can you have evidence of things not seen?
Faith is very powerful and from what I've seen, it can also be very dangerous if it is blind faith. Bad things often happen when people don't question or think about what they believe.
I mentioned Jim Jones. I wish you could seen these people and known them. Their faith in Jones as a kind of prophet of god was so powerful. I don't mind saying that Jones scared the hell out me because his psychotic state fill the room. The man had a remarkable tenderness with people, but I could smell it was sweet death. My stubborn questioning protected me from his charisma and all I could see was an enemy. Fortunately I had friends from the Tenderloin that helped me. We had a few nasty encounters with Jones' thugs in helping people get out of the church. Their faith made them victims and the faith of the others we couldn't save all died.
I agree the faith of hope is so important, but that hope should never be desperation where we grasp at anything. We have the ability to question for very good reasons, and if there is a god, then he gave us that ability, that protection and to not use it would be an offense against god.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Krill:
I think the big difference between you and I was that I didn't have the comfort of books to contemplate god and the meaning of life. At 17 I saw a billboard advertising for the navy and thought the uniform was so cool. That little fantasy threw me into a reality that I couldn't have dreamt of at that time. I was a real little guy, truly a boy and I was tossed to the wolves when I hit boot camp. Back then you had no rights or protection and it was down right brutal. Good thing it was, it did help me survive.
To make a painfully long story short, I didn't have the time to contemplate anything. However I did experience the very best and the very worst of humanity and life. I think when you are forced to experience the beauty and the evil of life, you have better, realistic tools to see god. Some do and some don't. Either way, learning has more substance than simply reading the experiences of others, like those in the Bible. It is one thing to read about those biblical battles, but no matter how real it may seem, it is nothing compared to holding your enemy in your arms, looking him in the eyes and watching his life fade away.
I love to read too, but my experiences have shown me that very little reality and truth can come from reading. I suppose that is why I want to see, because everything of substance I've learned has come from seeing.
As to the movie Prophecy, I hated that movie. I rather like the Biblical angels and I just hate movies that take such liberties with them. Gabriel turning against god? This is an archangel that loved god's creation as deeply and fiercely as Michael and would never do such a thing. Even if such an impossibility were conceived, Michael would slice him into microscopic pieces before he even knew what hit him. At least they didn't do too bad with Lucifer, except he should have been remarkably beautiful and far more manipulative and cunning, playing on every human weakness. Hopefully I'll finish my screenplay about angels in the next couple of years, they are right out of the Bible.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by krill:
sowwy, sowwy, sowwy, but the edit time ran out before I could add this...
In the final analysis, we all choose a GOD. A God is the thing that we desire most. If the God we choose just happens to be "The God", then we go to Heaven.(another gross oversimplification)
I don't mind gambling because I restrict how much I lose. I will not gamble with my soul. That is a bet I will only make if there is only one horse on the track.
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
So I do agree with Alexander Kalomiros' point of view, but only with forceful Christians.
Can you rephrase that? It doesn't look too coherent.
Sorry. Basically putting it, Kalomiros talked about Western theology portraying god as a rather nasty dictator. To an extent that's true. Those like the Hard-Shell Baptist, Jehovah’s Witness, the Holy Rollers, the Mormons and many other Bible thumpers are exactly what Kalomiros defined. It's the old "You better believe or else" folks. But they do not represent all Western Christians.
These are people who focus more on the Old Testament than the new. They feed on god's wrath and destruction and horrific punishments. They spend very little time preaching and practicing the love of god that Jesus taught.
Does that clarify?
Thomas
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Kalomiros talked about Western theology portraying god as a rather nasty dictator
True; the albatross of Western religion is the image of a cold rulemonger who looks for any excuse to exclude people from salvation. The other, equally unsatisfying vision of God is one who doesnt's care what we do.
I believe in neither. I believe in a God that trudges along with every step I take, sometimes complaining where I take Him, but always following my journey. I would expect nothing less of the God who made the investment of the Word Incarnate and the Holy Spirit.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
2. The Vulgate was not translated from the Septuagint (LXX) but from the Hebrew that Jerome was able to find in the 4th century when he visited the Jews of Palestine. The only exception is that books he couldn't find Hebrew originals for, he translated from the Greek. This is what gave rise to the "deuterocanonical" label which eventually culminated in those books being tossed out of Protestant Bibles in the 19th century.
[TANGENT ON THE TANGET]
The earliest translations into English were from the Vulgate, but the AV did come from the Masoretic texts for the OT and the NT received text was from Greek manuscripts passed through Beza (who actually had better Greek manuscripts but didn't use them because they differed from the later ones that Erasmus had). There were a number of errors in these texts which is why there have been numerous revisions.
Luther did notice the Hebrew texts around him did not include the deuterocanonicals. What he of course did not understand was the history as to why, so he moved them to the back of his Bible. Something he also did with several books of the NT. The deuterocanon, called the Apocrypha were in the 1611 KJV. I think it was in the 18th century that they really fell out of common use in English Bibles.
The simple fact of the Bible though is that it's a series of translations. The OT underwent a long period of composition and refinement. The NT, even though written in a much shorter time is at its very heart the oral tradition of an aramaic speaker recorded in koine.
[/TANGENT ON THE TANGET]
[TANGENT ON THE TANGET2]
There is no "official" English translation of the accepted Orthodox Bible as josephine said(and actually the Greek and Slavonic versions differ slightly). The Orthodox Study Bible put out in this country is based on the NKJV. My church uses the KJV for the most part.
[/TANGENT ON THE TANGET2]
I can vouch for Fr. Gregory being a real priest. He even finally taught me the secret handshake.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Glenn
Shipmate
# 6517
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Posted
Mousethief,
You called me prejudiced even after I qualified my statement with, "I'm sure that my arguments aren't immune to this." I was trying to illustrate the perception of opposed viewpoints by mocking a completely hypocritical argument. The whole point of that was to provide emphasis that since we are conjecturing about the fine details of reality, that we should not take ourselves too seriously. Your reply was clearly a personal attack.
What were the rules about personal attacks on this board?
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We are interested in evidence to support that which we already believe.
Posts: 288 | From: The Universe | Registered: May 2004
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Faith is very powerful and from what I've seen, it can also be very dangerous if it is blind faith. Bad things often happen when people don't question or think about what they believe.
I mentioned Jim Jones. I wish you could seen these people and known them. Their faith in Jones as a kind of prophet of god was so powerful. <snip>
I agree the faith of hope is so important, but that hope should never be desperation where we grasp at anything. We have the ability to question for very good reasons, and if there is a god, then he gave us that ability, that protection and to not use it would be an offense against god.
St Augustine said that an unexamined faith is not worth having. The quote above certainly explains for me your difficulty with faith, if your experience of it is the "faith" found in cults. Seems to me that those people had thrown away their choice, their free will, in their unquestioning acceptance of their leader. But by doing so, there was nothing more for them to take on trust, nothing to have faith in - it simply became a matter of obedience.
So you want proof of the existence of God because faith to you means throwing away rationality and reason?
Faith in God isn't like cultic faith. It's hard. It's a slow process, lifelong, with small steps and big ones. It's given to very few of us to have the big "conversion experience". Most of us get there by an emotional, intellectual spiritual process of thinking, feeling, rational thought and emotional realisation.
I struggle with faith. Why should I believe in God who won't prove himself to me? I find the struggle worth it, because I would rather live with a continued examined, struggling faith in God than with no faith at all. I've come to believe that God shows himself in small things, in a change of mind, a step towards the light rather than away from it.
And in the end, I'd rather live with God than without him.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glenn:
Your reply was clearly a personal attack.
What were the rules about personal attacks on this board?
Personal attacks are not allowed on this board. But, I've just gone back to look at what you and Mousethief said and it still doesn't look clearly like a personal attack (if it had been clear I, or another host, would have commented at the time). I thought that prejudice would be part of the bundle of things that you're sure your arguments aren't immune from. You were very dismissive of people who use Biblical texts to support their position (you use phrases like "poison it with inadmissible evidence", which would seem to me to be prejudicial. You are, of course, welcome to start a thread on why you consider the Bible to be inadmissible evidence (though if that's on the basis of an assumption of inerrancy in Scripture you may be better off contributing to the existing thread in Dead Horses) and we can discuss it.
Alan
Purgatory host
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
So I do agree with Alexander Kalomiros' point of view, but only with forceful Christians.
Can you rephrase that? It doesn't look too coherent.
Sorry. Basically putting it, Kalomiros talked about Western theology portraying god as a rather nasty dictator. To an extent that's true. Those like the Hard-Shell Baptist, Jehovah’s Witness, the Holy Rollers, the Mormons and many other Bible thumpers are exactly what Kalomiros defined. It's the old "You better believe or else" folks. But they do not represent all Western Christians.
-- snip --
Does that clarify?
Yes, it does. Thanks.
That said, reducing Kalomiros' line of thought as "Western theology portraying god as a rather nasty dictator" is a drastic oversimplification. AFAICT, the nutshell of Kalomiros' criticism of Western theology is that the West came to see the Atonement as a blood sacrifice to propitiate divine wrath, so that salvation became the averting of punishment from God, rather than a deliverance from death and the decay of this present age.
Both East and West say that "One better believe or else." It's just that what follows the "or else" is radically different. For the sake of illustration, let's imagine someone whose personality is like that of Marilyn Manson's stage persona and picture him at the judgement. In the West, he would be denied entry to Paradise and be sent to Hell. In the East, he would be in Paradise, but because he is so twisted, he can't stand it--and thus for him, it is Hell.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Duo Seraphim:
My example was only to show just how dangerous blind faith can be. My perception of faith have nothing to do with cults. I have faith in a lot of things. As one person mentioned, faith has a lot to do with hope. When it comes to believing on god, I have no desire to hope there is a god. It is far too important to simply have faith in. If I know god exists, then I'll know exactly what I have to do as well as when and how.
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
J. J. Ramsey:
Though I don't believe Kalomiros is totally accurate in apply his observation to all Western theology, I think he's dead on in the severity of Western theology. I'm not sure how many Western religions are actually that harsh, but historically all of the religions have proven to be even worse than he says. It's just been in the past fifty years that Western Christianity has become docile. Southern American Christianity has been dominated by outright brutal practices based on their religious beliefs and I saw that back in the 60's.
Though a distinct minority, to this day there are very harsh Christians like those who were so violent against abortion and those who scream "God hates gays!". A god that hates is not a very nice god and contrary to what I believe a real God could or would be.
I think the real distinction is if a Christian religion preached more from the old Testament and very selectively preached from the New Testament, picking out only the harshest parts. I would think that a true Christian would focus on the teachings of Jesus, emphasizing the most important parts of love, compassion and forgiveness.
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Glenn
Shipmate
# 6517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
It sounds as though you are saying, "How can people who appear so rational be different from me in some major respect?" This appears to say more about you, than about the people you are prejudiced against.
I was not suggesting that people with views differing from mine are dummies. I was trying to illustrate the folly in being closed minded. Perhaps I was too successful in the display of my potential prejudice. I say "potential", because I'm not actually closed minded. Everyone has the tendency to dismiss dissonant arguments and even the whole person as unintelligent.
Since Mousethief treated the first line out of my post and ignored the rest, I think that she proved my point. As if to say that nothing else in the post was worthy of discussion. I've seen this with one other person and I expect to see more of it. Was it with genuine concern for my mental health that Mousethief did this? No, it was hostile.
There, I've just read my offending post again, and I think that if you read carefully, you'll see that I mean no disrepect to anyone. I only emphasized the dissonance by presenting my views in closed minded language. Perhaps I'm not so much predudiced as just being an agitator. I fully admit that, but I don't do it to be disrespectful. I didn't come here to snipe at people from the safety of my study room. If I reply, I hopefully will have the respect to deal with people's entire post and their overall message, rather than slicing and dicing only certain parts of it.
Does it make sense to bring what we believe to be sacred ideas into a discussion forum?
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We are interested in evidence to support that which we already believe.
Posts: 288 | From: The Universe | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glenn:
There, I've just read my offending post again, and I think that if you read carefully, you'll see that I mean no disrepect to anyone.
I'm a He, not a She.
You know, I didn't think I was being nasty in my response to you. You seem to be saying in your post quoted above that if the author doesn't th ink it's offensive then it isn't; but I don't buy that. For this reason I am willing to admit that I came across too strong, and I apologize.
It would have been nice (and in keeping with the nature of the Purgatory board) if you had pointed out where I had misread you, rather than turning it into a personal attack.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Duo Seraphim:
My example was only to show just how dangerous blind faith can be. My perception of faith have nothing to do with cults. I have faith in a lot of things. As one person mentioned, faith has a lot to do with hope. When it comes to believing on god, I have no desire to hope there is a god. It is far too important to simply have faith in. If I know god exists, then I'll know exactly what I have to do as well as when and how.
So knowledge is better than faith? You won't believe unless you know for sure? I think we differ on the nature of faith. From my point of view, faith, as the Catechism of the Catholic says is the human response to God, born of freely willed choice and the grace of God. On that definition you can have faith as a result of proof by divine revelation ie as a response to the proof of God's existence. But it is a subset of the universal set of faith,that is not necessarily dependant on any proof greater than the message and example we have received in Jesus, if I can put it that way.
Faith is no small thing and I don't see it as blind, but as dynamic and reasoning. I deal with different levels of proof in the course of my work. I draw a clear distinction between proving something eg beyond a reasonable doubt and having faith in God even if I don't have a defined level of proof of him. (Although I do have proof at least in my own heart, but that is a different matter.)
I think you are saying that you will have faith in God, only when you have no choice but to believe in his existence. You qualify this by saying the question is too important and the stakes too high to warrant anything less. But if God put you beyond doubt in that way, that takes aways any freely willed choice of him by you. Surely it is better to make a free choice out of faith, hope, grace than to be intellectually compelled to believe. I think God wants us as his children, not his forced slaves.
Or I could ask you what you have to lose by believing in God, as a matter of reason.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
Duo Seraphim:
It seems I'm not getting across what I mean about faith and believing in god. I'll try to word it different.
What I want is no different than what Christians claim they have, that spark or light that tells you that you have connected with god. That revelation, if you will. I do not want bells and whistles or even knowledge, though knowing god would be knowledge in itself.
Though the teachings of Jesus inspire me on a humanitarian level, they do not inspire me on a spiritual level and convince me that god exists.
What I see is that people self stimulate themselves into believing god has touched them and from that their faith comes. This is a very deep and profound experience. Of course I don't know what is in the mind and heart another and I could be wrong. God could very well be touching them and that possibility is why I never close my mind to the possibility that god exists.
Does this help explain it better?
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I've never had any revelation or any inner whatsit that has convinced me that God exists. My belief in God is entirely inferential.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I've never had any revelation or any inner whatsit that has convinced me that God exists. My belief in God is entirely inferential.
What brought you to that conclusion?
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
To the conclusion that my belief is inferential? Or to the belief?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ThomasDF
Shipmate
# 6760
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
To the conclusion that my belief is inferential? Or to the belief?
Allow me to simplify, why do you believe in god?
Posts: 267 | From: Denver, Colorado USA | Registered: May 2004
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
6 billion people waiting for Reader Alexis' answer! Me included. Go for it brother! (Trouble is that it's 9.30 am in the UK and I've got to wait another few hours until he wakes up!)
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
I'm presently not Mousethief, but I thought I would chip in anyway. I come from a largely atheist/agnostic background. My parents never took me to church, never talked about religion and remain suspicious of it. What I felt was a progressive feeling of "something" being there which I can't explain or put my finger on beyond saying I felt beckoned and compelled by it for lack of a better term.
I moved into looking into religion cautiously and with a lot of doubt. I read a fair amount about Buddhism and then started up as a fairly liberal Christian I guess. To fast forward over a lot of stuff, over time I felt an increasing sense of the presence I mentioned. A number of coincidences and a few strange experiences have led me to where I am now. Often I feel it would be much simpler to simply remain an agnostic because I would be much less troubled by the complexities that I think belief introduces. I still feel like I could reject God, and many of my actions probably do, but I still have this simultaneous terrifying/comforting feeling that God is there.
I found the Mountain of Silence to be one of the best treatments on the human experience of God I've read, just as a side note.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Canadian Phil
Shipmate
# 6202
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Posted
Thomas;
Just a quick clarification. When I used the term liberal, I wasn't necessariliy meaning leftist. I was refering to philosophical liberalism which is, in its conservatave and leftist form, the dominant ideology in the West right now (even if that looks like it is breaking down). What the political right and left share is a common way of knowing, even if that doesn't lead them to the same conclusions. Among the more germane simiularities to our discussion is a confidence in the 'scientific method' in which it is believed that we can interact with the world without bringing any bias. That is blatently silly as post-modernists point out, but it is a serious blind spot in our own society. It also gives impetus to our culture's assumption that parental silence about religious matters is leaving the door open. Given the cultural understanding of religion and its underlying hostility to religious worldviews, the ground simply isn't level.
Peace,
Phil
Posts: 222 | From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004
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Canadian Phil
Shipmate
# 6202
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Posted
Oh, shoot. Wrong thread!!! This one should have been with the educating children thread Thomas started.
Disoreintedly yours,
Phil
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"I will attend to the matter as only a highly trained Classicist could" from The Lady Killers
Posts: 222 | From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally .:
A number of coincidences and a few strange experiences have led me to where I am now.
This is the final step of a great many conversions I know of from atheism, to Buddhism, to liberal Christianity, to conservative Christianity. Without being my typically confrontational and iconoclastic self, I only want to point out, dispassionately, that when the final "seal" is coincidence and strange experience, it leaves open the possibility that coutervailing coincidence and strange experience can as rapidly unravel belief. I have seen and experienced this myself.
I know that Alt Wally has the intellect to understand this and do not wish to be ominous, nor do I wish to project myself onto him. But I do feel compelled to at least comment.
My best to Alt Wally.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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