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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: God the pathological killer? (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: God the pathological killer?
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Lep, if we've really got to the point where you're arguing that we all deserve to be brutally murdered, so it's OK for Joshua to go and do it, I think my work is done.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Riiight Lep. So hes going to judge people on the things that they might have done had they been alive to do it is he? Or alternatively, we are all infected with Adam's sin so we are all worthless from the start (and what was so bad about that again?). Sorry mate, my God is a lot nicer than that, and I am looking forward to having new (and eternal) life with all my downs syndrome friends who cannot really understand anything down here.

C

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arse

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Lep, if we've really got to the point where you're arguing that we all deserve to be brutally murdered, so it's OK for Joshua to go and do it, I think my work is done.

To look at it another way:
Have we really got to the point where you are saying that God is kind to our pitiful race because we deserve it, because it is just that he should, rather than because he is merciful? Erm...I think you'll find that's the opposite of Christianity.

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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If God is merciful, He would not be calling on Joshua to commit a most unmerciful genocide on entire cities.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Just to add - isn't one of the points of the parable of Dives and Lazarus that Lazarus is taken to the bosom of Abraham in paradise because that's what he deserves? Should both actually have been in Hell?

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
If God is merciful, He would not be calling on Joshua to commit a most unmerciful genocide on entire cities.

In the same way that he would not be calling down the punishment that fell on Sodom onto Capernaum? Oops, Jesus not merciful then.

Cheesy, I'm not sure what your point about down's syndrome sufferers has got to do with it. Are you suggesting that because I believe God is just that I must also believe that people who have learning difficulties can't go to heaven? I hope you are not suggesting that.
As for your point about what would happen if God told me to commit a massacre - well that's really the inerrancy question phrased a different way. And there's another thread for that.

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Incidentally, this sig is also gibberish

'The only test of past conversion is present convertedness'

Unless you are God himself there is no test.

C

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arse

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Cheesy*:
Incidentally, this sig is also gibberish

'The only test of past conversion is present convertedness'

Unless you are God himself there is no test.

C

You may take this up with its author, Mr Packer.

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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But Jesus doesn't actually call the judgement down on them - not in the sense that anything happens.

Do you really think that God is going to punish entire cities for the sins of some of the inhabitants? Abraham noticed that was unjust and argued against God doing it. I seem to be in august company in my similar objection!

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But Jesus doesn't actually call the judgement down on them - not in the sense that anything happens.


Karl,
Iam confused about what you are arguing for:
Is it
a) We deserve God to treat us well, because we are ..well not bad really, especially ickle children. (ref: your Lazarus comment)
OR
b) Because God is merciful he shoud not treat us badly (ref your comment on God's mercy).?

Personally I think in answer to a) Jesus taught all of us were bad, we deserve nothing good. and b) God as at liberty to make what he will of his creation - his ultimate mercy would have been demonstrated in saving even one sinner in all of history, never mind billions.

Re Sodom and Capernaum - he does make it clear that this judgement will come..on the day of judgement. And you are in august company, although you will note in that story that the whole of Sodom does get destroyed, precisely because there were no righteous people. Which is my point.

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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I guess it depends on what you mean by "punish".

For the truly innocent people of the city, a fast track to Heaven might be better than having to stay down here, mired in sin, for another x years.

(I'll note here that for anyone who doesn't believe in Hell, or that it exists but is empty, the above qualifier "truly innocent" is redundant. It's also interchangeable with "forgiven".)

That's not a justification of human instigated genocide, as we are commanded not to kill. But if God Himself were to rain down brimstone on the city, who here would call Him unjust?

Let's not take too much of a this-world-centered view here.

[ 24. March 2004, 10:05: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Were it historically accurate, the Sodom story would make no sense, because there are always innocent people in any setting. The story goes to great lengths, indeed, to demonstrate that punishing the innocent along with the guilty is something that God cannot do. Hence, Marvin, the answer to your question is "I would." - Abraham did.

Point of order - there were escapees from Sodom - Lot. Lot represents in the story (which I think is largely mythological as we have it in Genesis) the innocent. We have assurance from God that He won't destroy the city if there are innocent people there - again, guaranteed if the story were historical, but it's not - it's like the flood story - it teaches theological points.

Moving on - (a) is certainly true of some people. I know of plenty who are like Lazarus in the story, and whom justice would take to heaven. (b) This is for the rest of us. Of course, none of us are perfect, but what system of justice would condemn for not being perfect? We, fortunately, do not have to work out where we are with regard to (a) and (b) because God is merciful, as said again and again throughout the Bible.

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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271

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Marvin,

As the geniuses in Christian Aid's marketing department have it, "We believe in life before death".

The incarnation kind of demands we take a this-world centred view of morality. One can't ignore crime or poverty or whatever because "God will set it all right in the end". This is because the teaching of Jesus and much of the OT strongly tells us that the lives we live in this world are valuable and precious to God, so how can we justify the mass slaughter of many of them?

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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I agree with Karl. Some people's lives have been so bad and so horrid that they surely deserve eternal life. Unfortunately as we have the luxury of being able to think and discuss the issue this probably doesn't include us.

In which case the important thing about terrible suffering is our response to it and what we do about it.

C

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arse

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Were it historically accurate, the Sodom story would make no sense, because there are always innocent people in any setting. The story goes to great lengths, indeed, to demonstrate that punishing the innocent along with the guilty is something that God cannot do. Hence, Marvin, the answer to your question is "I would." - Abraham did.

So you do view being called to Heaven early as a punishment?

I'd almost see it as a reward...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Marvin - It's not the "getting to heaven early" bit, it's the getting killed bit.

You were all for stringing up child murderers earlier - but aren't they doing them a favour by your logic?

Sean has said the rest.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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There are still many here who receive the hateful psychotic aspects and sublime loving aspects of the divine references in the Scriptures (Old AND New) as if they are of equal value and somehow to be reconciled. This doomed enterprise needs to waken up to what's really going on in the Bible. The SENSE of the true God through revelation is EMERGENT in the Bible, not hotly and freshly delivered entire complete and of equal nutritional value.

[ 24. March 2004, 10:36: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]

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Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Were it historically accurate, the Sodom story would make no sense, because there are always innocent people in any setting. The story goes to great lengths, indeed, to demonstrate that punishing the innocent along with the guilty is something that God cannot do. Hence, Marvin, the answer to your question is "I would." - Abraham did.

You see, the root of the problem here is views of the Bible again. I would assume that the story must make sense, and what it teaches is that there are no innocent people in that city (and I think Lot escapes because of his relationship to Abraham - children of Abraham being the heirs of the covenant etc.) Again, I would see this backed up by the many later statements of original sin in the Bible. To me, its just not an option to say "this doesn't make sense, because I know there are innocent people". I agree that it shows that it is wrong to punish the innocent - therefore as everyone gets punished....QED. I would also point out Karl, at the risk of getting your goat, that you seemed to view this story as having a moral persuasive value when it backed up what you already thought about innocence and guilt. But it seems strange to me that you view Abraham's behaviour in this story as setting a moral paradigm, but not God's.


quote:

Moving on - (a) is certainly true of some people. I know of plenty who are like Lazarus in the story, and whom justice would take to heaven.

And yet God's justice demonstrated elsewhere never rescues people, only condmens. His MERCY rescues, his justice only leads to condemnation.
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Crash Test Christian
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# 5313

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If we don't buy in to the God of the Bible, then what are we buying in to? Jesus apart from the Hebrew God? That doesn't work because of Jesus claimed to be sent by (be one with) that God.

Do we not acknowledge God as the author of morality? Can we call the Author immoral based on his standards? Many on this thread have.

Karl, if we are defining God apart from what is given in the Bible, we are therefore inventing a different god than Jesus spoke of; therefore, inventing a religion, in this case one that fits a less offensive god.

We are also in no position to know who may deserve death and those who are innocent. It is presumptious to say we know better than God.

I don't want to sound like I'm all for genocide, or that genocide is only offensive. But if God did tell Joshua to wipe out these people (and the Bible says He did), then what choice does Joshua have? The difference to me is I believe God told Joshua to do it and bin Laden is action on his own.

[tangent]
Joshua is a Christ type in that he save Isreal from her enemies. In fact the Jews were looking for a military leader to be the Messiah.
BTW- Jesus = Joshua (Yeshewa) in Greek
[/tangent]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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No, in the story of Lazarus and Dives, his justice takes Lazarus to the bosom of Abraham.

And I do see a moral paradigm being set in the actions of God in the Sodom story. And that is that God agrees that it is unjust to punish the innocent along with the guilty - a principle completely undermined by the Joshua genocides.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Marvin - It's not the "getting to heaven early" bit, it's the getting killed bit.

It happens to everyone sooner or later. Personally I'd rather go in a nuclear explosion (quick, relatively painless) than a long, drawn out, agonising decay of the body.

quote:
You were all for stringing up child murderers earlier - but aren't they doing them a favour by your logic?
You're confusing two issues. Earthly justice is about what we deserve, God's justice is about mercy.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

And I do see a moral paradigm being set in the actions of God in the Sodom story. And that is that God agrees that it is unjust to punish the innocent along with the guilty - a principle completely undermined by the Joshua genocides.

But Karl. God then goes on to rain down fire on the city! In the same way he uses his people to bring his judgement on the Amalekites (I think) in Joshua! God does agree that it is wrong to punish the innocent, but seems to then be implying that, at least in Sodom, there was no one innocent!
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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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And sorry to double post, but I've just read the story of Lazarus and there is no mention of justice.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Crash Test Christian:
If we don't buy in to the God of the Bible, then what are we buying in to? Jesus apart from the Hebrew God? That doesn't work because of Jesus claimed to be sent by (be one with) that God.

Do we not acknowledge God as the author of morality? Can we call the Author immoral based on his standards? Many on this thread have.

Karl, if we are defining God apart from what is given in the Bible, we are therefore inventing a different god than Jesus spoke of; therefore, inventing a religion, in this case one that fits a less offensive god.

We are also in no position to know who may deserve death and those who are innocent. It is presumptious to say we know better than God.

That's one view. Mine differs. Unless you're suggesting we're actually wrong to find genocide morally repulsive, and should rather capitulate to God and say "although I think genocide is terrible, God knows best and He says it's OK"? I don't have the mental furniture for that. Evil stays evil, regardless of who orders it.

quote:
I don't want to sound like I'm all for genocide, or that genocide is only offensive. But if God did tell Joshua to wipe out these people (and the Bible says He did), then what choice does Joshua have? The difference to me is I believe God told Joshua to do it and bin Laden is action on his own.
So blowing up 10,000 people in the WTC is only wrong because God didn't tell him to do it? My answer to "what choice does Joshua have" is to stand up in defiance against a clearly pathologically evil deity.

quote:
[tangent]
Joshua is a Christ type in that he save Isreal from her enemies. In fact the Jews were looking for a military leader to be the Messiah.
BTW- Jesus = Joshua (Yeshewa) in Greek
[/tangent]

This I know. What I find fascinating is that events showed they were looking for completely the wrong thing.

Incidently, both you and Lep have said the difference between Joshua and Bin Laden is that the latter wasn't under God's orders. How do we know that? I know Bin Laden wasn't under God's orders because I don't believe in a God who would order genocide. Since you do, how do you know?

[ 24. March 2004, 10:49: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
And sorry to double post, but I've just read the story of Lazarus and there is no mention of justice.

You didn't look very closely.

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.'"

That is the justice principle on which Lazarus' place in paradise is based - that he had a shit time down here, so he is comforted in heaven. Not condemned.

Because Dives did nothing to help him, he stands condemned.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

And I do see a moral paradigm being set in the actions of God in the Sodom story. And that is that God agrees that it is unjust to punish the innocent along with the guilty - a principle completely undermined by the Joshua genocides.

But Karl. God then goes on to rain down fire on the city! In the same way he uses his people to bring his judgement on the Amalekites (I think) in Joshua! God does agree that it is wrong to punish the innocent, but seems to then be implying that, at least in Sodom, there was no one innocent!
Which works if the city is symbolic and the account is not literal. But in any real city, there are good and bad people intermingled. It's almost a form of racism to suggest that "all New Yorkers are evil", or "All Parisians are evil", or for that matter, "All Jerichoans are evil".

Which is an interesting point. Given that many scholars are of the opinion that the Exodus is not historical anyway (and the fact that Hebrew is a Canaanite, not a Babylonian language with bits of Egyptian in it, which is what we'd expect if Abraham came from Ur and his descendants lived in Egypt for generations), aren't an awful lot of problems resolved by seeing the Joshua accounts as being a foundational origin myth?

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:


Incidently, both you and Lep have said the difference between Joshua and Bin Laden is that the latter wasn't under God's orders. How do we know that? I know Bin Laden wasn't under God's orders because I don't believe in a God who would order genocide. Since you do, how do you know?

Because interpreting these events through the glasses of the NT (I too believe in progressive revelation [Eek!] ) they are pictures of JESUS bringing God's judgement at the end of time. The NT makes it clear that in the mean time we are to entrust God to judge, not take it upon ourselves. Because I believe in the authority (and inerrancy [Razz] ) of the NT as well as the Old, it means that I can't use these actions as a justification for killing people. Rather I entrust Jesus, the instrument of God's justice to do so on that day.

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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Crash Test Christian
Shipmate
# 5313

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I might have been unclear, so please allow me to correct any misunderstandings: Genocide is wrong. It is murder times x. But these are standards humans are held to.

[re-open tangent]
Karl:
quote:
This I know. What I find fascinating is that events showed they were looking for completely the wrong thing.
Are you saying most are currently looking for the wrong type of God, as in the time of Christ?
[/tangent]

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Holding the button since Febuary 25, 2004.

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Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
And sorry to double post, but I've just read the story of Lazarus and there is no mention of justice.

You didn't look very closely.

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.'"


I think you're reading rather more into that sentence than is there aren't you? Its just a statement of fact. There's nothing in the text that shows it to be a universal principle of justice.

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271

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quote:
Originally posted by Crash Test Christian:
If we don't buy in to the God of the Bible, then what are we buying in to? Jesus apart from the Hebrew God? That doesn't work because of Jesus claimed to be sent by (be one with) that God.

You could try buying in to the idea of progressive revelation - we interpret the OT in the light of Jesus, who fully reveals the God is only partly known in the OT. Blatantly, there are things the OT doesn't disclose about God - e.g. the Trinity. So we can hardly say Jesus adds nothing new to our understanding. Hence, we revise certain aspects of our previous picture of God in the light of Jesus. What's the problem with doing this here?

quote:
Do we not acknowledge God as the author of morality? Can we call the Author immoral based on his standards? Many on this thread have.
This is rather circular. You assume (which is precisely what is under debate) that it was God who told Joshua what to do in the first place. In some parts of the OT God is regarded as the author of both good and evil. A good example is the census which Yahweh incites David to make in Samuel (I think) but which then he's angry against David for doing. In Chronicles this is revised so that it seen as Satan who incites David to sin.

The Bible revises itself. We are merely applying its own logic to itself.

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postpostevangelical
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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If genocide is wrong, then God wouldn't go telling people to ignore His earlier instructions and go and do it.

What I think interesting here is that down in fossilised Mesohippi, we are told in the Inerrancy thread that we can weigh any potential instruction we think we have from God against Scripture, and if it doesn't match, it can't be from God. Had Joshua done that against the 10 commandments given 40 years earlier to Moses, it seems he'd have had to reject what he thought God was saying to him.

[tangent]

No. The people then were looking for the wrong sort of Messiah.

[/Tangent]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Talitha
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I think we need to distinguish between God causing destruction (as in natural disasters) and people causing destruction (as in genocide.)

Theologically and intellectually, I don't have a problem with the former. (Emotionally I do, but that's a separate issue.)

I do have a problem with the latter. If people killing people is wrong, then surely it is still wrong even if God orders it? You no longer have the get-out clause of "God did it and the rules don't apply to him," because people did it. You can place God outside morality if you like, but I still believe in absolute morality for people.

Plus, as people on this thread have said, how can anyone know God ordered it?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
And sorry to double post, but I've just read the story of Lazarus and there is no mention of justice.

You didn't look very closely.

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.'"


I think you're reading rather more into that sentence than is there aren't you? Its just a statement of fact. There's nothing in the text that shows it to be a universal principle of justice.
I don't think so. Abraham is explaining the basis of the decision that put the two where they are - i.e. justice.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Ahem! Use of the Bible issues please? Nobody interested. Oh OK ....

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Ahem! Use of the Bible issues please? Nobody interested. Oh OK ....

[jumps up and down eagerly] I am I am.

What do you mean?

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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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I'm sure we would be if we knew what you meant, Fr.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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OK ... let's drag this previous post back to the front. What is unclear in this please?

quote:
There are still many here who receive the hateful psychotic aspects and sublime loving aspects of the divine references in the Scriptures (Old AND New) as if they are of equal value and somehow to be reconciled. This doomed enterprise needs to waken up to what's really going on in the Bible. The SENSE of the true God through revelation is EMERGENT in the Bible, not hotly and freshly delivered entire complete and of equal nutritional value.



--------------------
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Fr. Gregory
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Leprechaun

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# 5408

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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
OK ... let's drag this previous post back to the front. What is unclear in this please?

quote:
There are still many here who receive the hateful psychotic aspects and sublime loving aspects of the divine references in the Scriptures (Old AND New) as if they are of equal value and somehow to be reconciled. This doomed enterprise needs to waken up to what's really going on in the Bible. The SENSE of the true God through revelation is EMERGENT in the Bible, not hotly and freshly delivered entire complete and of equal nutritional value.


Oh. I would have been jumping less eagerly if I had known that you meant this old chestnut. I've really had enough of it on tHe inerrancy thread.
Progressive revelation = OT incomplete BUT NOT MISTAKEN.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear Leprechaun

YOU'VE had enough of the inerrancy thread! [Biased] [Killing me]

The point is that until we get the use of the Bible right little else will be resolved when liberal and conservative positions pit themselves against each other on ANY issue.

I know you have probably written me off now as a hopeless liberal, not-taking-the-Bible-seriously type person. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There is a very real problem here with God as Cosmic Sadist .... quite willing (apparently) to kill the son of promise (Isaac) put the Amalekites under the ban etc. etc.

Some go through hoops and hand-stands to square this all with the God of Love. It can't be done. No matter how much mystery, total depravity or just requirements of the law of sin and death is imported into the equation ... the result is always the same ... distortion, incoherence, atheism. Allowing for the human factor in the Bible does NOT erode its authority. It makes it all the more cogent because it chronicles the experience of a people as they are led and saved by God.

The Old Testament is not mistaken; the New Testament is not mistaken. There is no need either to believe "7 impossible things before breakfast" .... Alice in Wonderland style .... OR to get out the Reader's Digest red pen and strike out all the nasty bits. You have to follow through on the Bible's own honesty .... and see where it leads.

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Fr. Gregory
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IconiumBound
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# 754

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Amen Fr G. Why have they missed the myth?
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271

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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Progressive revelation = OT incomplete BUT NOT MISTAKEN.

Hi Leprechaun

I want to reply to this and will do so on the inerrancy thread as I think it would be a bit of a tangent to respond properly here. Ta!

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hermit
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# 1803

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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Dear Leprechaun

YOU'VE had enough of the inerrancy thread! [Biased] [Killing me]

The point is that until we get the use of the Bible right little else will be resolved when liberal and conservative positions pit themselves against each other on ANY issue.

There is a very real problem here with God as Cosmic Sadist .... quite willing (apparently) to kill the son of promise (Isaac) put the Amalekites under the ban etc. etc.

Some go through hoops and hand-stands to square this all with the God of Love. It can't be done. No matter how much mystery, total depravity or just requirements of the law of sin and death is imported into the equation ... the result is always the same ... distortion, incoherence, atheism. Allowing for the human factor in the Bible does NOT erode its authority. It makes it all the more cogent because it chronicles the experience of a people as they are led and saved by God.

The Old Testament is not mistaken; the New Testament is not mistaken. There is no need either to believe "7 impossible things before breakfast" .... Alice in Wonderland style .... OR to get out the Reader's Digest red pen and strike out all the nasty bits. You have to follow through on the Bible's own honesty .... and see where it leads.

So your position would be that the genocides happened historically, but weren't ordered by God? That seems to go along with the idea of "good is what modern professors of morals and ethics decide it is". We can't judge God, we have no more right than Job, or a small child has the right to judge a parent. The Creation is full of suffering and death, someone dying by genocide is no different in that sense than a saint dying by a heart attack.

NIV, 1 Samuel 15:2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [ 15:3 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD , often by totally destroying them; also in verses 8, 9, 15, 18, 20 and 21. ] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

Could you spend a little time defining your view on this particular passage, Father? Did it happen exactly as mentioned, or was it that Joshua claimed the Lord commanded it when it was really something he did on his own?

Now Karl has said that Biblical stories are just that, allowed into the Bible to teach moral points rather than being historical, I suppose analogous to Jesus telling parables. That's possible, but nonetheless the morality taught isn't what all of us would want - it teaches that the most important thing is to obey the Lord, even if that contradicts one's personal beliefs ... or personal beliefs about what God formerly commanded! The moral teachings of the OT are partly that if God commands us to kill, and we know truly and absolutely that is a command from God and not a delusion or hallucination, we must obey - and thus it isn't murder, any more than killing someone in pure self-defense is murder. "Absolute morals" means simply anything that God commands. There's no other reasonable way to define "absolute".

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Chilling, Hermit, chilling.

I imagine that's the reasoning that those who murder abortion doctors use.

As do Al Qaeda.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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hermit
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# 1803

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Sorry to double post, the system designed by speedy young administrators wouldn't allow me to edit.

quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Dear Leprechaun

YOU'VE had enough of the inerrancy thread! [Biased] [Killing me]

The point is that until we get the use of the Bible right little else will be resolved when liberal and conservative positions pit themselves against each other on ANY issue.

There is a very real problem here with God as Cosmic Sadist .... quite willing (apparently) to kill the son of promise (Isaac) put the Amalekites under the ban etc. etc.

Some go through hoops and hand-stands to square this all with the God of Love. It can't be done. No matter how much mystery, total depravity or just requirements of the law of sin and death is imported into the equation ... the result is always the same ... distortion, incoherence, atheism. Allowing for the human factor in the Bible does NOT erode its authority. It makes it all the more cogent because it chronicles the experience of a people as they are led and saved by God.

The Old Testament is not mistaken; the New Testament is not mistaken. There is no need either to believe "7 impossible things before breakfast" .... Alice in Wonderland style .... OR to get out the Reader's Digest red pen and strike out all the nasty bits. You have to follow through on the Bible's own honesty .... and see where it leads.

So your position would be that the genocides happened historically, but weren't ordered by God? That seems to go along with the idea of "good is what modern professors of morals and ethics decide it is", if you decide what was from God and what wasn't. As far as I understand your position it is different from the majority view in the Orthodox Church, so is your personal view - I believe your Church teaches that God ordered the genocides, doesn't it? We can't judge God, we have no more right than Job, or a small child has the right to judge a parent. The Creation designed by God is full of suffering and death, someone dying by genocide is no different in that sense than a saint dying by a heart attack.

NIV, 1 Samuel 15:2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [ 15:3 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD , often by totally destroying them; also in verses 8, 9, 15, 18, 20 and 21. ] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

Could you spend a little time defining your view on this particular passage, Father? Did it happen exactly as mentioned, or was it that Joshua claimed the Lord commanded it when it was really something he did on his own? I'm not trying to be rude, my mind needs specific examples before I can understand.

Now Karl has said that Biblical stories are just that, allowed into the Bible to teach moral points rather than being historical, I suppose analogous to Jesus telling parables. That's possible, but nonetheless the morality taught isn't what all of us would want - it teaches that the most important thing is to obey the Lord, even if that contradicts one's personal beliefs ... or personal beliefs about what God formerly commanded! The moral teachings of the OT are partly that if God commands us to kill, and we know truly and absolutely that is a command from God and not a delusion or hallucination, we must obey - and thus it isn't murder, any more than killing someone in pure self-defense is murder. "Absolute morals" means simply anything that God commands. There's no other reasonable way to define "absolute".

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine

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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271

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quote:
Originally posted by hermit:
So your position would be that the genocides happened historically, but weren't ordered by God? That seems to go along with the idea of "good is what modern professors of morals and ethics decide it is", if you decide what was from God and what wasn't.

I think you'll find it's quite difficult to squeeze that line of argument out of what anybody has said on this thread.

The point is that a God who indeed ordered the mass slaughter of thousands or millions of people because their ancestors weren't nice to his people is totally irreconcilable with the God of love revealed in Jesus Christ, and the moral way of life which God himself demands - not to murder.

The issue is NOT whether God has the right to judge and avenge - clearly he does. But that is not the motive for his command given in this passage nor is it consistent with the picture of the God of mercy and forgiveness revealed in Jesus.

This isn't, therefore, just going along with what modern professors of ethics think. This slur is tiresome and manifestly untrue. It is simply observing that certain ways of reading the Bible end up painting God as a capricious and immoral terrorist. You end up undermining precisely what you seek to uphold - the character of God and the authority of Scripture.

[Removed swear word.]

[ 24. March 2004, 18:01: Message edited by: Sean D ]

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
The SENSE of the true God through revelation is EMERGENT in the Bible, not hotly and freshly delivered entire complete and of equal nutritional value.

I presume you could explain if/how this is different from dispensationalism. It seems to me that you are saying that God is revealed more completely in later times (NT), so therefore, we should place less reliance on the OT. Do I understand you correctly?

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:

The point is that until we get the use of the Bible right little else will be resolved when liberal and conservative positions pit themselves against each other on ANY issue.

Ah but who gets to decide what is the "right" use of the bible. Please do not use You or the Orthodox in your response I might get upset [Biased] .

quote:

I know you have probably written me off now as a hopeless liberal, not-taking-the-Bible-seriously type person. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There is a very real problem here with God as Cosmic Sadist .... quite willing (apparently) to kill the son of promise (Isaac) put the Amalekites under the ban etc. etc.

Some go through hoops and hand-stands to square this all with the God of Love. It can't be done. No matter how much mystery, total depravity or just requirements of the law of sin and death is imported into the equation ... the result is always the same ... distortion, incoherence, atheism.

I am bordering on taking offense at this on behalf of myself and probably a few thousand or million others. Distortion to whom? Incoherance to whom? How do you KNOW it always results in "atheism". Please, try not to lump people that question biblical authority into some homogenous unit. We aren't. Some of us are trying really hard NOT to become atheists in the face of damning biblical literature evidence.
quote:

Allowing for the human factor in the Bible does NOT erode its authority. It makes it all the more cogent because it chronicles the experience of a people as they are led and saved by God.

Oh, I don't know, I think once it becomes a human endeavor (and it was) it becomes a matter of complete choice, a matter of complete faith, how much authority one wants to put into it or erode away from it. Some might choose atheism in the face of the humanity of the bible, some might choose a very liberal Christianity, some might close their ears and wish it were not true.
quote:

The Old Testament is not mistaken; the New Testament is not mistaken. There is no need either to believe "7 impossible things before breakfast" .... Alice in Wonderland style .... OR to get out the Reader's Digest red pen and strike out all the nasty bits. You have to follow through on the Bible's own honesty .... and see where it leads.

Okay so I thought we might break down what some of the different possible ways of explaining God might look like (italics are my commentary for fun):

Emergence School - God is. We are just seeing different aspects as we proceed from the OT to the NT. God was an asshole, but now we see he's also nice too.

Process Theology - God is evolving with us.
God was an asshole, but he changed and is nice now.

Inerrentist - God is as described, deal with it.
OT Asshole. NT Nice Guy. Numerous ideas as to why, none really satisfying.

OT is no longer applicable, thus that God is no longer applicable.
Okay, but why is the NT any better?

I think that covers the possibilities mentioned so far. Please add on as you see fit.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Do you really think Jesus kills children to punish their parents? Not any Jesus I'd touch with a bargepole. Why do you want to believe in a God whose such an evil git?


I guess you really don't like the highlighted part of this one, then:

quote:
Exodus 20


The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:
...
5 ... I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.



--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Jerry Boam
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# 4551

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Dunno about Karl, but I don't like that one.

And I'm not sure how I possibly could "like" that idea...

Do you like that one? Can you explain why it seems nice to you and what lesson you draw from it?

Oh, and doesn't reading that literally make God a liar? He certainly hasn't looked after a thousand generations of the offspring of the righteous, and Ecclesiastes and Job portray God in a different light. Do you think he's schizophrenic or what?

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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.

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Freddy
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# 365

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My goodness. You sure do get into trouble when you take it all so literally. [Eek!]

The Bible is highly symbolic. God is presented as a bloodthirsty tyrant at times in the Old Testament because the first principle of having a God is that God is in charge. The truth is that the Bible was written in a dark and wicked time, and the imagery suits the times. [Disappointed]

God is love itself. It is impossible for Him to be angry. Descriptions of His anger are imagery describing the truth that evil returns to its source. [Paranoid]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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