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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Hell: The god of Islam is not the god of the bible (Page 3)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: The god of Islam is not the god of the bible
hermit
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# 1803

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In my opinion, the idea that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man doesn't necessarily mean that everyone must consciously accept the NT testimony about him, or consciously accept him as Savior. Good Muslims will come to the Father through Jesus after death.

As I mentioned, there are great dangers inherent in the violent and depraved example of Muhammed's life ... fortunately most Muslims ignore most of that and stick to the nice stuff like praying 5 times daily and giving alms to the poor. God has inspired them through even a flawed religion.
______________________
Purely as a side note, Panurge, "Shema Yisroel: Adonai elohainu, Adonai echad" doesn't contradict the idea of a trinity, since "echad" could mean several-in-one, e.g. "(a man and his wife)shall be as one (echad)" or an OT reference to several grapes being one bunch. However I'm uncomfortable with the trinity concept.

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


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Panurge
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quote:
Purely as a side note, Panurge, "Shema Yisroel: Adonai elohainu, Adonai echad" doesn't contradict the idea of a trinity, since "echad" could mean several-in-one, e.g. "(a man and his wife)shall be as one (echad)" or an OT reference to several grapes being one bunch. However I'm uncomfortable with the trinity concept

Good pilpul, but very definitely not a gloss that Orthodox Jews I have talked with would be at all comfortable with. And neither of your examples fully illustrates your meaning. The first is a metaphor and the second is about smaller things coming together to make a whole. Trinitarianism denies that the Trinity is a metaphor, and also denies that God is made of three smaller component parts (a grape is not an aspect of the bunch, it is a small and removable part.)


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Louise
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ES - it's your belief that the Koran is inspired by the Devil that most of us are responding to - not who you think will get into heaven or not.

I think you still haven't really responded to the arguments made against that.

With regard to Hermit's post on the 2 John thread in Hell which was to be answered here

I would say that you've simply replaced selective quoting from the Koran with selective quoting from the Hadith (traditions about the prophet).

Ariel has already pointed out on that thread that Hadith are not on the same authoritative level as the Koran. Opinion varies widely within Islam as to which Hadith are authoritative or not and what they mean.

In respect of authority, Hadith are probably more comparable to the authority of the writings of the Church fathers in Christianity. Not everyone accepts the same ones and not everyone agrees about what level of authority they carry, if any.

To pick out a few traditions which may or may not be authoritative, or which may or may not be liable to intepretation in the way you suggest is hardly good grounds for condemning an entire religion.

And it certainly doesn't support ES's claim that that religion is demonically inspired which was what I was arguing against.

And a rider to Matt Black - I'm sorry you're not equally "a bit upset and disappointed" to see the sincere and deeply held views of Muslims derided as inspired by the Devil.

But as non-Christians they don't count, do they?

Louise

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


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Ender's Shadow
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Oh dear - well I guess having to justify myself is good for me. And I don't think it is possible to PROVE that the inspiration of the Koran is Satanic, merely to make a good case that there are reasons for thinking it to be so.

Of course this exercise is based on certain assumptions. The most significant of which is that it was actually 'inspired' by a spiritual presence, and not merely the result of Mohammed's 'good ideas'. This is an argument that is hard to sustain these days when it is common to dismiss even the book of Revelation as a 'composition' rather than truly a vision given to 'John'. As someone who has personal experiences of such 'revelations' I can assure you that there is a real difference; one that is occasionally hinted at in the bible (Jeremiah's dismissal of the false prophets who have not sat in the council of God for example).

Once one takes 'the prophet's' claim to be the recipient of a spiritual visitor seriously, the options become much more limited. The claim that our God could conceivably have caused such vicious lies to be written is laughable (the claim that it was not Jesus who died on the cross leads to the belief that he allowed his followers to make the claim that he rose from the dead - which is to make Jesus' claim to be a good man wholly impossible.)

Given the strategic spiritual situation, with the spread of Christianity into the area of Mecca, it is reasonable to argue that the demon that had been worshipped for hundreds of years in the Black Rock needed to nip this challenge to his authority in the bud. So 'he' ('she!?') looked around for someone who was willing to be a means of deceiving the local tribes. And there was this ambitious man - who was quite prepared to do almost anything to advance his personal power. And the rest as they say is history......

This is purely speculative. It does however offer as good an explanation in the spiritual realm of the rise and expansion of Islam as anything else. I can't prove it - but equally it can't be proved to be wrong....

As I've said before, and I'll say again; we serve a mighty God who is able to work in people's hearts despite this work of deception; but not far below the surface of the logic of Islam is the idea that you only need to complete the various rituals and you've got a reasonable chance of getting to heaven. The Christian ideal is far more radical - you have been bought at the cost of the death of Jesus, you are no longer your own, but you should be a living sacrifice living out your life as God requires in every detail. And of course Christianity offers the assurance of forgiveness - 'if we confess our sins, God is faithful and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.'

My first post on SoF was an attempt to develop a theology of salvation. It always interests me that in John the work of the Holy Spirit is to convince the world of sin; the need for real repentance. IMHO the mistake that a lot of evangelical preachers make is to do that work for him - ending up 'convincing' their listeners of their need for God rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to convince. This is of course unhealthy - the story of two 19th century evangelists walking down a street and seeing drunk in the gutter someone who got 'saved' the previous week, with the comment 'Was that one of your converts' 'Yes - because it certainly wasn't one of God's' has a great deal of depth to it. However the opposite mistake is to underplay the reality of sin to such an extent that we are all comfortable and unrepentant - hiding in our own 'holiness'. Such is the danger that the liberal runs when he moulds his pastoral theology to suit the climate of the times - be it in allowing remarriage of divorcees, gay relationships or Muslims / Jews / Hindus to remain unchallenged. Of course it must be done gently; indeed the role of the Holy Spirit suggests that it needs little more than a clear witness in the church - not preached about ad infinitum - as certain churches like to do on the gay issue - but just there so that everyone knows what the church's view is.

At this point I must ask your indulgence and drop some hints without going into any detail. My church at the moment is faced with a number of messed up pastoral situations because there has been a failure to achieve this balance; we seem to have been unclear - with the result that certain situations have developed which are now much harder to resolve because of that lack of clarity. And it is out of the pain that I feel over that confusion that I write some of what I do.....

I hope some of that makes some sort of sense.... I apologise for the final 'hint'. It would be unfair to be more explicit - but it is a significant reality in my life at the moment.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.


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Siegfried
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quote:
Given the strategic spiritual situation, with the spread of Christianity into the area of Mecca, it is reasonable to argue that the demon that had been worshipped for hundreds of years in the Black Rock needed to nip this challenge to his authority in the bud. So 'he' ('she!?') looked around for someone who was willing to be a means of deceiving the local tribes. And there was this ambitious man - who was quite prepared to do almost anything to advance his personal power. And the rest as they say is history......

Someone's been reading Chick Tracts again...

[UBB code]

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!


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hermit
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Louise said,
quote:
I would say that you've simply replaced selective quoting from the Koran with selective quoting from the Hadith (traditions about the prophet).

Ariel has already pointed out on that thread that Hadith are not on the same authoritative level as the Koran. Opinion varies widely within Islam as to which Hadith are authoritative or not and what they mean.



Hadiths may not be completely authoritative to sensible, sophisticated Muslims, but they are to the fundamentalists - even though Hadiths are on a lesser level than the Koran.
They are considered even more reliable when repeated from different sources, such variations are usually grouped together.

The only source of information about Muhammed comes from these eyewitness testimonies (the Church Fathers did not witness Jesus, so the Hadiths are more like the four Gospels). I think his moral character is of great importance in deciding whether he was actually a prophet, and reading the only records about him makes me decide he was not.

Many hadiths with slight variations record Muhammed requesting assassinations, for example. He commanded that anyone who fell away from Islam should be murdered. (Bukhari vol IV, no. 260; vol. V, no. 630) Volume IX is filled with death threats against apostasy (pgs. 10,11, 26, 34, 45, 50, 57, 341, 342).

He allowed women captured in battle to be used sexually, their marriages terminated. Sahih Muslim, Chapter 29: IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A CAPTIVE WOMAN AFTER SHE IS PURIFIED (OF MENSES OR DELIVERY) IN CASE SHE HAS A HUSBAND, HER MARRIAGE IS ABROGATED AFTER SHE BECOMES CAPTIVE

Book 008, Number 3432:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).

From the same book, the aging Muhammed commands his teenage wife Ayesha to suckle an adolescent boy (several variations of this):Chapter 28: SUCKLING OF A YOUNG (BOY)

Book 008, Number 3424:
' A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be eupon him) and said: Messengerof Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She said: How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man 'Amr has made this addition in his narration that he participated in the Battle of Badr and in the narration of Ibn 'Umar (the words are): Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) laughed.
___________________
I'll skip temporary marriages for the convenience of soldiers ... an issue of importance is whether Muhammed's wars were purely defensive as Muslims claim. From http://answering-islam.org/Muhammad/oman.htm

THE MESSAGE OF THE PROPHET TO THE OMANI PEOPLE
Here is the text of the message the Prophet Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers through the intermediary of his Messengers, 'Amr bin al-'As al-Sahmi and Abu Zaid al-Ansari.


"Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."


[Photograph of the Arabic original (sizes 27K or 772K) and the English text (31K) as it is on display at Sohar Fort, Sultanate of Oman.]
__________________
To me it seems obvious Muhammed cannot be considered a prophet of God, since he murdered, started wars, and had questionable morals in other ways. Even HE had doubts that Gabriel was from God!

As I mentioned, most Muslims pretty much ignore that stuff and take the nice things to heart, so God redeems them even through a false religion. However, the fundamentalists who foment terrorism actually have good scriptural support for their views.

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


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i and i
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# 2189

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by this argument, Moses couldn't be considered a prophet, e.g. deut 25, or Joshua, e.g. just about all of Joshua, or David, e.g plenty stories... this doesn't prove that the God of the bible is not Allah.

thanks Daisymay for talking much sense within the confines of the premise of the thread.


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Ender's Shadow
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Siegfried dismisses my comments because they sound like Chick tracts. This is offered as an argument?!

To look at it a slightly different way: if this was in fact what really happened, in what ways would the history of the time be different from what we actually see? Don't forget that the demon's objective was to deceive - so he is not going to make it obvious..... That it doesn't fit with how you usually think about things doesn't make it untrue!

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.


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Tina
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Why should we assume that every 'good' idea is directly inspired by God, and every 'bad' idea by demons? Where does this leave any room for good old human free will?

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Kindness is mandatory. Anger is necessary. Despair is a terrible idea. Despair is how they win. They won't win forever.

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daisymay

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quote:
Originally posted by Tina:
Why should we assume that every 'good' idea is directly inspired by God, and every 'bad' idea by demons? Where does this leave any room for good old human free will?

Absolutely. And this goes for 'words of knowledge' and 'prophecies' (how do you spell that word?) too. People speak from their own hearts and minds, and from what is going on in their own lives. God may use those at times, and breathe Spirit into them, but when we assume they are dictated from God, then we mess up majorly.



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London
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Matt Black

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Louise, I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on this one. Whether or not it is the 'mainstream' view (and I am quite prepared to retract that word if proved wrong, but have to say that most, if not all, evangelicals I have known or 'read' subscribe to the view or something pretty darn near it - but I accept of course that those whom I know or read are the tip of the iceberg, but i would venture to suggest that those I know are fairly representative), it is nevertheless a view held by many evangelicals that, whilst we respect (and I hope we all do - i certainly do!)non-christians such as Muslims for holding their sincerely-held beliefs, we nevertheless in all conscience believe them to be worng, That is our belief; it does not mean that I ridicule a Muslim for holding her/hisbelief -- that would be wrong - and if you are attacking those who deride Muslims for holding their beliefs, then fair cop. What I object to is the deriding of Christians who sincerely believe that the Islamic belief system is wrong - or even demonic (as many charismatics do - again, a significant proportion of Christendom. Whilst I don't agree with some of the universalist or liberal views espoused on this thread, I respect you for holding them and your integrity in so doing - I certainly wouldn't call you 'liberal nutters'so why are we called 'fundamentalist nutters'?! (NB I am not a fundamentalist anyway!)

FWIW, my own view, following the two scriptures I quoted earlier, whilst I think Teilhard de Chardin's concept of an 'anonymous' or 'unconscious' Christian has some mileage to it (ie: that eg sincere Muslims can unknowingly worship Jesus and thereby know God), I tilt more towards the views of the respected evangelical theologian J I Packer, who insists on the 'particular (or was it 'peculiar'?) exclusivity' of Christianity - is he a 'fundamentalist nutter' too, Fiddleback?

Yours, more in sorrow than anger

Matt

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)


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Callan
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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

quote:
This is purely speculative. It does however offer as good an explanation in the spiritual realm of the rise and expansion of Islam as anything else. I can't prove it - but equally it can't be proved to be wrong....

And so on the basis of this purely speculative and unverifiable "reconstruction" you are prepared to accuse the Prophet Mohammed of being the tool of a demon and Muslims as being unwitting diabolists.

Being one of those notorious liberals I am appalling at remembering chapter and verse. Perhaps someone (An Evangelical!) could remind me where we find the prohibition "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour".

Matt Black - When I consider the good Father's opportunities I am astounded by his moderation.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton


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Old Hundredth
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# 112

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quote:
Originally posted by Tim V:
Yup, there's no shortage of analogies for the universalists.

With respect, Tim, I don't think Nicole's approach was universalist. The letters would still go to the president of the college, although both correspondents have an incomplete concept of his identity. A universalist analogy would surely suggest that a letter sent to the janitor of the college would get you the same response (eg admission to the college) as a letter to the president!

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If I'm not in the Chapel, I'll be in the bar (Reno Sweeney, 'Anything Goes')


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Tim V
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I'm quite willing to concede that Nicole's personal position isn't best described as 'Universalist' and in fact Qlib has alreay said this, although it may be worth noting that Nicole didn't object to me describing her attitude as Universalist. I have described a few issues that I have with her analogy - whether this means that it is her opinion or just the analogy itself which is at fault I don't know. Nightlamp and Louise have already pointed out this particular benefit of using analogies: it's impossible to tell which is wrong, the person or the analogy that they use .

As far as the demonic nature (or lack of it!) of Islam or other religions is concerned, I genuinely don't know. I am certain that God desires everyone to be a Christian and think that it's probable that Satan hates it when a person is living their life in a relationship with God through Jesus. So given that, I would suggest that Satan prefers someone to be a devout Muslim than a devout Christian. And it is quite possible that he prefers a non-devout Christian to either of them. We know that Satan is a good liar, so is it completely unreasonable to suggest that he has deceived millions of people and turned them away from what God wants, which is for them to live in a relationship with him in the light of Jesus' sacrifice?

I would like to stress this, though: I am not saying that Islam is inspired by Satan. We don't know this either way and it's as unreasonable for someone to say that this certainly could not be the case as it is for someone else to say that it certainly is the case.

I don't think that anyone who has posted so far on this thread would disagree with what I have just said but I am open to correction. Be nice, though, because I have tried to be reasonable .

Tim

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Scots steel tempered wi' Irish fire.
Is the weapon that I desire.


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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Tim V.

quote:
I would like to stress this, though: I am not saying that Islam is inspired by Satan. We don't know this either way and it's as unreasonable for someone to say that this certainly could not be the case as it is for someone else to say that it certainly is the case.

In one of the Omen films a priest is trying to convince the heroine that Damien is the antichrist. He says something like "I am a Christian, my religion forbids me to bear false witness against my neighbour. If I had the slightest scintilla of doubt about this matter I would be obliged to remain silent".

As you point out, we can't know that the Prophet Mohammed was inspired by Satan. Therefore the Christian response is not to make allegations that we do not know are true, given the high seriousness of the charge. I have nothing against abstract speculation but before something firmer is warranted before alleging that millions of good and decent people are following the teachings of a man inspired by the devil of hell.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton


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Sean
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# 51

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Lets try another supposition:

Its reasonable to suppose that Satan would prefer those that consider themselves people of God to spend their time fighting each other instead of following God to the best of their understanding.

It would therefore be reasonable to suppose he might inspire people to try and stir up argument and hatred among different people of God agaist each other...

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"So far as the theories of mathematics are about reality, they are not certain; so far as they are certain, they are not about reality" - Einstein


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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
It would therefore be reasonable to suppose he might inspire people to try and stir up argument and hatred among different people of God agaist each other...


It seems to be working well on this thread.

Lord, grant us knowledge and understanding. Help us to see the good in people. Help us to treat others, including those with whom we do not agree, with respect.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]


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Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Don't forget that the demon's objective was to deceive - so he is not going to make it obvious..... That it doesn't fit with how you usually think about things doesn't make it untrue!

One wonders what else the Daemon has inspired secretly, and who else has obtained knowledge of his evil plottings?

Ender's Shadow, how do you know so much about what Satan is up to (and was up to centuries ago?). I hope you have not been having midnight congress with the devil.

HT


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Tim V
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# 830

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Disappointing post given the one immediately preceding it...

--------------------
Scots steel tempered wi' Irish fire.
Is the weapon that I desire.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Oh, please -- Tim, you haven't exactly been a model of love and kindness here!
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Siegfried
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# 29

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Siegfried dismisses my comments because they sound like Chick tracts. This is offered as an argument?!

No, I'm suggesting you got your story from a Chick tract. If not, where did you get that marvelous tale?

quote:
Ender's Shadow continues:
To look at it a slightly different way: if this was in fact what really happened, in what ways would the history of the time be different from what we actually see? Don't forget that the demon's objective was to deceive - so he is not going to make it obvious..... That it doesn't fit with how you usually think about things doesn't make it untrue!

And how do you know it was a demon?

--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!


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Louise
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# 30

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Matt Black wrote
quote:
"if you are attacking those who deride Muslims for holding their beliefs, then fair cop.
What I object to is the deriding of Christians who sincerely believe that the Islamic belief system is
wrong - or even demonic


There I'm afraid we part company, Matt, I consider the labelling of the beliefs of others 'demonic' as constituting prima facie derision of others of the worst sort.

I don't like the fact that, even in jest, this is being thrown back at the evangelical posters who have dealt it out to others - even though it could be seen as only doing unto them what they do to others.

I do not believe that holding a belief sincerely is a justification or mitigation for that belief when it is used to dehumanise others as stooges of the devil.

A poster comes to this site and attacks muslims everywhere as following a religion devised by the Devil and the response of some posters has been effectively to say

'How dare anyone criticise him! He's only demeaning the faith of millions of people by calling it Satanic - what's wrong with that?'

Or to infer that if the rest of us challenge such views, then that must be the work of the devil stirring up disharmony - rather than a problem with posters who think it's fine to write off an entire worship tradition as directed to Satan!

It's rich to watch people line up to cry 'persecution!' because someone has been taken to task for attacking the religion of others in such a demeaning and disgusting and extreme way.

Louise

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Oh dear - well I guess having to justify myself is good for me. And I don't think it is possible to PROVE that the inspiration of the Koran is Satanic, merely to make a good case that there are reasons for thinking it to be so.

Of course this exercise is based on certain assumptions. The most significant of which is that it was actually 'inspired' by a spiritual presence, and not merely the result of Mohammed's 'good ideas'. This is an argument that is hard to sustain these days when it is common to dismiss even the book of Revelation as a 'composition' rather than truly a vision given to 'John'. As someone who has personal experiences of such 'revelations' I can assure you that there is a real difference; one that is occasionally hinted at in the bible (Jeremiah's dismissal of the false prophets who have not sat in the council of God for example).



[emphasis added]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you have had direct revelations from God, and therefore are capable of determining whether the "supposed" direct revelations of other persons were valid or not?


quote:
I have great hopes that in practice many Muslims will be found to have cast themselves on the mercy of God, and will be found among us on the last day.

So if one can "be found among us..." [us? endar, are you so sure, and does that include me?] "...on the last day" simply by having cast oneself on the mercy of God, why do you insist on all this belief in Jesus as the only way etc.?

quote:
OK - I thought I'd said this before - should confuse some people?!
We will be surprised by who gets to heaven, and who doesn't. I have no doubt that many from a non-Christian background who have realised their total dependence on God will be there, and many 'Christians' who slipped into thinking they were doing OK and didn't need God anymore will lose out. I have great hopes that in practice many Muslims will be found to have cast themselves on the mercy of God, and will be found among us on the last day.

Ok, Endar's Shadow, I will grant you these points, which I agree have been ignored in the heated response to some of your more provoking statements. But it bothers me that you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, the infidels might actually show up in Heaven and lots of the Christians won't. On the other hand, you are also sending a very strong message to me that I am doomed because I believe in a God who was also the God of my (Baha'i) grandmother and father, who passed on to me my faith in God by their example as evidenced in their lives. (The Baha'i Faith, in case you don't know, is an offshoot of Islam.)

So, Endar's Shadow, what does God tell you about me? Am I following the devil or am I saved? Is my religion "valid"? If you can pass judgment on the religion of Islam, surely you can pass judgment on me. (Even without getting into my beliefs about birth, death, heaven, and rebirth or reincarnation!).

[UBB code]

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: RuthW ]


Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ender's Shadow
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# 2272

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Given the relative freedom with which Paul refers to 'meat offered to idols' as having something to do with the worship of demons, I don't think it is a particularly significant charge in one sense; the bible sees demons around quite a lot - even the Jews get a designation as a 'synagogue of Satan' Rev 3 v 8 while Paul seems to assume that the worshippers at the temples to other Gods are relating to demons (1 Cor 10 v 14f) etc, and even Jesus describes his opponents as the descendants of Satan. The issue is what we do with the information; as far as I'm concerned it is a fact that doesn't make me react especially strongly against either Muslims or Hindus, though both do end up in the same category (discuss?!)

Where the thing might be argued to become a problem is when you go to a Mosque (or a temple). Should you be willing to take your shoes off as a sign of honouring their deity? And of course the issue of 'praying with them' becomes really untidy - again the principles of the meat offered to idols makes it less acceptable to do so.

As to the comment about spiritual experiences giving the RIGHT to judge - no I'm not claiming that more so than I do of anything said by any person ('Test everything' 1 Thess 5 v 21). This requires discernment and a willingness to decide which is not what we are taught to do - the 'Judge not' being preferred to the 'Beware false prophets' in the same passage! My point is that we might want to take the claim of the Koran to be 'objectively given' seriously on the basis of my experience.

Does that make any sense?

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.


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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Where the thing might be argued to become a problem is when you go to a Mosque (or a temple). Should you be willing to take your shoes off as a sign of honouring their deity?

Let's put it this way. You wouldn't get past the entrance if you didn't. It's their mosque and their space. You're not obliged to go in. If you do, you will be expected to comply with their customs, and one would hope that you would behave in a respectful way and not bring shame on your own denomination by openly showing contempt for their practices. I would expect anyone entering a Christian church to behave with respect. I might not for example care much for the idea that in Spain a woman is required to cover her head in church, but I would do so because that's important to the Spanish and it's offensive not to, even though I personally do not accept or like this tradition.


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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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Enders Shadow asked, "Where the thing might be argued to become a problem is when you go to a Mosque (or a temple). Should you be willing to take your shoes off as a sign of honouring their deity? And of course the issue of 'praying with them' becomes really untidy - again the principles of the meat offered to idols makes it less acceptable to do so."

When I have gone to a mosque or temple, I have been fine about taking off my shoes, wearing 'modest dress' etc. I also do this in churches where it is the custom.

I would never offer anything to any of the images or make obeisance to them; I don't do this in my own church either,- it has a few images around which are given devotion by some members.

I feel quite OK during prayer-time in a mosque to sit and pray (not attempting to perform salat ) while everyone else is doing their prayers.

I have a few friends who became Christian from Hinduism and if I was in a temple with them, I'd have to avoid accepting prasad because they mostly think it's dangerous for them to accept that - being 'food offered to idols'. On my own, I'd be much less bothered because I believe that either the idols are really nothing, or that the demons behind them have no power over me as a Christian.

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London
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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Ender’s Shadow - Your post on what Paul says about meat offered to idols begs the whole question, because he is talking about people who claimed to worship pagan gods whereas Moslems claim to worship the one true God (the God of Abraham): it is you who are claiming that they worship demons. In any case, Paul’s advice (1 Corinthians 10 v18-33) suggests to me that the eating of meats offered to idols is to be avoided mainly because it gives a message about one’s beliefs which would be misleading. Incidentally, Paul goes on to say ”Give none offence, neither to the Jews nor the Gentiles” You seem to me to be trying your damnedest to give offence to as many people as possible with your ignorant and half-baked theories about one of the world’s major religions.

It seems to me that you are also being quite deliberately dishonest in your use of Scripture when you imply that “a synagogue of Satan” is a swipe at the Jews, because the verse (Rev3.9, in my version) explicitly states ”Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie” Not that I would take the authority of Revelations for anything, but that’s another matter.

The Islamic faith teaches respect and veneration of Jesus as a great prophet. As for your comment on Mohammed “Even HE had doubts that Gabriel was from God!” – it seems to show a proper degree of humility. An example we might all learn from.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.


Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fiddleback
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The thing that disturbs me about hermit's lengthy list of quotations is that he apparently hasn't actually read the Hadiths, but garnered his knowledge second hand from an aniti-Islamic website. Out of the enormous body of writing that constitutes the Hadiths, there are bound to be some of dubious quality which today might shew the Prophet in a bad light, especially when taken in isolation. But remember, the Hadiths represent an oral tradition and make no claim to be authoratative scripture. They are in fact rather like our synoptic gospels except that Mulims don't ascribe to them the same sort of authority that Christians, and especially mad fundamentalist Christians, attach to the gospels. Now there are several sayings of Jesus in the Gospels which, taken in isolation, to an impartial reader make him look a bit of a dickhead. For example:

Warmongering and breaking up families - Mt:34-39

Lack of charity and racism - Mt 15: 21-18

Self mutilation - Mt 5:29

Plain stupidity - Mt 13: 31,32
(any primary school kid who's grown the stuff on wet blotting paper knows better than this.

I could go on, but if this sort of thing was all we saw of the gospels, we might rightly think that Christianity is a load of bollocks, and perhaps even Satanic (if you're into demons and hobgoblins etc).

Ender's Shadow might also remember that until about thirty years ago a great many Catholics sincerely believed that the Protestant Reformation was a Satanic deception, in rather the same way that he imagines Islam to be.


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hermit
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# 1803

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Fiddleback, I've read the Koran and many of the Hadiths. I've read the Bible and anti-Christian sites, and pro- and anti-Muslim sites.

My concern is whether the revelations of Muhammed and Jesus came from God, I can't judge the wisdom of either from my limited human viewpoint. So if Jesus hyperbolically calls a mustard plant a large tree, or if Muhammed says that Satan farts at the call to prayers, I can take either in stride IF the source is from God.

Now keep in mind that I believe sincere Muslim prayers DO go to God ... I don't believe the Koran is a revelation from God. I judge this because of the recorded history about Muhammed, facts even Muslim scholars agree to.

Let's compare the two. Jesus preached love for your enemy. Muhammed beheaded several hundred disarmed captive Jews in 628AD for not believing in him (Muslims claim it was for breaking a treaty). The Old Testament clearly predicted Jesus, including time and place of birth and manner of death. There is no mention of Muhammed. Jesus worked incredible miracles. Muhammed produced no sign from God; the Koran admits this and says Allah could have produced signs, but instead gave the Koran as the sole miracle.

So there is no evidence Muhammed was sent by God, as there is for Jesus, and in my opinion his moral turpitude AFTER Gabriel's revelation's argue against it having been from God. Moses and Paul were murderers BEFORE God redeemed them, but blameless AFTER.

On a very subjective note, I don't want to believe the Koran is from God. It seems uninspired and repetitive; one sees a pattern of graphic threats of hell for those who don't believe, praise for those who do, and a distorted story from the Old Testament ... then repeat ad nauseam.

Koran 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christians call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth. Koran 47:4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Koran 98:1-8 The unbelievers among the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. Koran 43:74 ..The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell. The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be speechless with despair...
Koran 22:19-22:23 Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'

Can I prove that is not from God? No. But I just don't believe it is.

I do however find great wisdom in mystical strands of Islam such as Sufism and the teachings of Baha'ullah (who unfortunately proclaimed the truth of the Koran, but nobody's perfectf).

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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hermit - I would agree with some of what you say, though by no means all. I'm not sure that I agree with the principle that we can make that kind of judgement on the holy book of another religion - it's hard enough to discern God's word in our own. However the question of whether the Koran is inspired by God is not the subject of this thread. The OP was about whether the Koran is inspired by Satan and/or anonymous demons.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Poet_of_Gold
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# 2071

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A quote from The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis: "The Lion growled so that the earth shook...and said, 'It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him...'"

All that is truly good aligns itself with God and was created by God. All that is truly evil aligns itself likewise with those forces whose delight is continually evil. Someone may be sincerely deceived as was the young man to whom the Lion spoke in this story. I believe it is up to God to decide the eternal destination in individual cases where the people did not know the way, but did the best they could with the light they had.


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hermit
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# 1803

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quote:
However the question of whether the Koran is inspired by God is not the subject of this thread. The OP was about whether the Koran is inspired by Satan and/or anonymous demons.

OK, I was just thinking about that today ... since I don't believe "Gabriel" was from God, and since the Koran seems a bit elaborate for a hoax by a semiliterate man, I see two main possibilities.

One is that the visions of Gabriel and voices in his head were simple hallucinations. Muhammed was known to have epileptic seizures, and those are commonly associated with hallucinations. Having heard a mishmash of religious ideas while living with his first wife Khadija (a wealthy merchant), all of that may have percolated in his subconscious mind and erupted while he was having seizures in the cave.

However hallucinations don't usually last for hours, nor are they often coherent in nature. I don't discount the possibility that Gabriel (who inspired fear in Muhammed) was an actual spirit entity of some sort, not aligned with God.

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


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Panurge
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# 1556

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I don't think anyone on this thread has yet mentioned Rushdie's The Satanic Verses.

It's not an easy book, but it does try to deal with the history of Islam and its encounter with Britain. And its conclusion was optimistic...that, of course, was before the Iranian fatwa, which resulted in Rushdie going into hiding and strong reaction in the West.

But of course Christians would never behave like that, would they? They'd never issue death threats against doctors in abortion or contraception programs, for instance? And then carry them out.

I seem to recall the blurb for one of C S Lewis's books included the slighly hyperbolic line "Over all the earth, the shadow of one dark wing". And I can't help feeling that the demon-calling on this thread is part of that shadow. Motes and beams.


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Gill
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# 102

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not far below the surface of the logic of Islam is the idea that you only need to complete the various rituals and you've got a reasonable chance of getting to heaven.

Hmmm... now where have I heard THAT before?

I can actually trace my slow walk away from Evangelicalism from a day when I suddenly realised that what was being preached was that Satan is more powerful than God.

The fear! The horror that we might unwittingly offend God by accidentally doing something Satanic, like taking a Homeopathic remedy! The knowledge that every mosque had a secret message set under the doorframe which meant that every one passing through had promised to be Satan's in the next life!

I don't know how prevalent some of those are now, but this was real. And very silly, it suddenly seemed to me one day.

I don't think it's fair to oppose Jesus' actions and teaching to the examples in the Koran. Look at the atrocities in the OT!

All I know is, I work with children who would be lucky to get an invite to many churches - and we were welcomed into the mosque by people whose sincere love of God shone through them and who laughed as the boys ran riot in the prayer room, and who spoke to them of the need for tolerance and the need to look to God for life's answers. Not Islam. They said, "In your culture you might try going to church..."

Twenty years ago I would have interpreted this as Satan's wiles. Now I actually think it was God in them.

Oooooh am I damned yet????


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Still hanging in there...


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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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What if the 'God of the Koran' is an incomplete concept of the 'God of the Bible'?
Mahommed never did grasp the concept of the Trinity (and how many Christians do?), partly because there was so much 'worship' of Mary by the Christians in his neck of the woods. So the general idea was that Christians worshipped 3 gods, Father, Son and Mary. So there the Koran misses out, tho it does respect Jesus as an extremely holy prophet. Also, God's Spirit is regarded as God, but not a separate Person, just as my spirit is not a separate 'me'.
If the Christians of the area had been more aware, more accepting (one of the rulers was really rude to Mahommed), perhaps Islam would have been part of Christianity.

'Satanic Verses' - excellent stuff. Have you read 'Midnight's Children'?

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London
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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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Hermit - there’s a far simpler explanation than all that stuff you posted, and it’s this: A lot of religious people have mystical experiences and maybe even visions and, as a consequence, are liable to imagine that they have a special interpreter status when it comes to the mind of God. The experiences themselves may be genuine in origin - in which case, the trouble lies in how they are interpreted afterwards, which is always within human limitations and clouded by intellect, life experience, prejudice, culture and so forth. Alternatively, the experiences may be the first signs of psychiatric illness - that is why religious communities and church discipline are so important: individual experiences must always be weighed in the balance against other people’s insights.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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hermit
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# 1803

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Certainly possible, Qlib. But I believe that Muhammed claimed to remember everything told him by Gabriel perfectly, so there was none of his interpretation involved. That's why the Koran is usually considered inerrant in the Arabic, while the Hadiths are more open to interpretation.

Except of course for the "Satanic" verses, which I believe were later revoked (Muhammed claimed he was influenced by Satan to speak false suras?) - I never read the book.

from one online Koran: "The Qur'an is one leg of two which form the basis of Islam. The second leg is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saas). What makes the Qur'an different from the Sunnah is primarily its form. Unlike the Sunnah, the Qur'an is quite literally the Word of Allah, whereas the Sunnah was inspired by Allah but the wording and actions are the Prophet's. The Qur'an has not been expressed using any human's words. Its wording is letter for letter fixed by no one but Allah. "

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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hermit - Some Christians believe the same thing about the Bible. They are not necessarily correct. There is a difference between memory and interpretation. God's word is always filtered through the mind of the hearer, who is bound to be limited in his/her capacity to understand (the passage quoted in your sig expresses this beautifully). And, of course, some people who think God is talking to them can be completely mistaken.

God doesn't tap people on the shoulder and say. "Put your shirt on Hermit's Boy in the 2.30 at Chepstow" (more's the pity). He says difficult and complex things and, possibly quite different things to different people in different times. To everything there is a season.

The most amusing aspect of this debate is, it seems to me, that the God of the Old Testament (especially as interpreted by Christian fundamentalists) is remarkably similar to the God of the Koran, especially as interpreted by Islamic fundamentalists. That still makes talk of 'demons' off the wall, IMO.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.


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hermit
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# 1803

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quote:
God's word is always filtered through the mind of the hearer, who is bound to be limited in his/her capacity to understand (the passage quoted in your sig expresses this beautifully). And, of course, some people who think God is talking to them can be completely mistaken.
I can agree with that ... even more, the people who write it down can make mistakes ... think of the apostles writing down what were probably perfect teachings, but decades after hearing Christ's words, passed down orally through different people with different theologies. But I'd say Muhammed was not given God's words, he was an unfit vessel for revelations, yes mistaken about the source of it.

quote:
The most amusing aspect of this debate is, it seems to me, that the God of the Old Testament (especially as interpreted by Christian fundamentalists) is remarkably similar to the God of the Koran, especially as interpreted by Islamic fundamentalists. That still makes talk of 'demons' off the wall, IMO.


Well, it's similar because he was impressed by the monotheistic ideas of the Jews he talked with. The Koran is stuffed with Old Testament stories, slightly distorted as if he'd heard them rather than read them.
"Demon" is a funny word ... we don't know exactly what Jesus exorcised, since the word was used for almost any chronic malady, physical or spiritual. For example, one boy who clearly had epilepsy was exorcised. But I don't deny the possibility that evil spirit entities can influence humans.

I don't know the source of Muhammed's revelations, but it doesn't seem to me to be from God (for the reasons given above, and then some!). I think there is at least a POSSIBILITY that some sort of evil entity influenced him.

For those who don't have a Koran at hand and wish to read one online: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

hadiths are at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


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Olorin
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# 2010

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quote:
I think there is at least a POSSIBILITY that some sort of evil entity influenced him.

On what basis? It seems to me that the people who are suggesting or hinting at muhammed being influenced by the devil (or whatever) are simply making it up. Finding something they don't like/understand & applying their prejudices to it.
Most of your 'evil entities' are contained in your own subconscious, please don't externalise them onto other people. Try therapy instead.

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I wrestled with God, and lost by two falls & a submission.

Posts: 390 | From: Hammersmith, London | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

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# 2210

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Firstly, a correction - I think it was the Jesuit Karl Rahner rather than Teilhard who coined the term 'anonymous Christian'.

Secondly, on an emotional level, I too find exclusivism pretty distasteful - it sticks on my gullet to think of anyone not achieving salvation. My best friend at secondary school was a Muslim (sorry if that sounds like "some of my best friends are gay" but that's the honest truth!)so I would dearly love to believe in some form of universalism or pluralism (although my friend would havce been gravely offended by the idea), but at the end of the day I can't let my heart rule my head. and my head gets stuck on what the Bible says, and in particular the blatant exclusivism of no less a personage than Jesus Himself in John 14:6. I am not a fundamentalist and so don't take every verse of Scripture literally, but i think this one is pretty clear and can't realistically be contextualised out of its apparent meaning without an extreme feat of mental gymnastics. It also ties in theologically and soteriologically with the problem of reconciling a perfect God with imperfect humankind - only the perfect atoning sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary can achieve that; no other belief system adequately deals with the problem of sin. To come back to the question of the OP, since GOd has already revealed Himself fully in the person of Jesus (Jn 14:6 again)then God and Allah cannot be one and the same since Islam believes Jesus to be merely a prophet and not the Incarnation of the living God. If they are the same, however, then it follows that Islam, being a subsequent progression in the revelation of God, must be a more complete revelation than Christianity or Judaism and that accordingly proper Jews and Christians should convert to Islam.

Fortunately, I have every faith and hope that God's mercies are far superior to my little mind's petty workings, and that accordingly when all is said and done, what my heart desires will be far more fully realised than what my head reasons.

Yours

Matt

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)


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Nicolemr
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# 28

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all of a sudden i am reminded of my mother telling me how, when she was a kid, her best friend (who was roman catholic) told her quite seriously how sad she was that she was going to go to hell because she was a protestant.

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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
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# 1803

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quote:
Most of your 'evil entities' are contained in your own subconscious, please don't externalise them onto other people. Try therapy instead.
Purely your opinion, Olorin. As for therapy, I've met psychiatrists who believe literally that demons or other spirit entities exist. I don't know your religion, but Jesus seemed to believe demons exist, and I believe him.

Matt, some good points ... have you considered the Catholic position, which is that God has given some light to all religions, but the fullness of revelation through Jesus ... John 14:6 is true, but that doesn't necessarily mean one has to have consciously known Jesus for him to function as mediator. A Muslim, for example, who responded fully to whatever limited light God showed him might be saved.

However, there's no doubt the Koran is at loggerheads with the Gospels, and it solves that problem by insisting that the entire Bible has been corrupted. For example the gospels repeatedly say Jesus called himself the Son of God, while the Koran directly says that is untrue, God has no son. The gospels say Jesus was crucified, while the Koran denies that and says it only appeared that way, Allah deluded the sinful Jews. Yes, one must choose which revelation one puts faith in.

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
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# 30

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quote:
the blatant exclusivism of no less a personage than Jesus Himself in John 14:6.

I'm fairly sure that issue was discussed at length in Purgatory a while ago, but I've just looked in the archive and can't see a relevant thread. It might be worth starting one again as I know there are a lot of differing views on the boards about that which you might find interesting.

However this thread isn't about the extent of salvation but about whether we're talking about the same God or not.

Now I'm not sure if I'm following the rest of your argument correctly -

you say


quote:
To come back to the question of the OP, since GOd has already revealed Himself fully in the person of Jesus (Jn 14:6 again)then God and Allah cannot be one and the same since Islam believes Jesus to be merely a prophet and not the Incarnation of the living God.

Now I don't think that works - for instance the God of the Jews, the God of the Old testament is quite evidently still the same God worshipped by both the Jews and by us - despite the fact that Jews don't believe the same things about Jesus.

Now the Koran is quite clear that the God that it worships is the God of Abraham, the God of the Old Testament patriarchs. They have different ideas about Jesus (as the Jews do) but they stll believe in the one God of Abraham

Now you may reckon that their beliefs about what that God wants or teaches are mistaken (as they don't recognise Jesus)but they still seem to be talking about the same deity as us (the God of Isaac and Abraham and Moses).


To say that they are not is like claiming that another Christian who has radically different ideas about Jesus is somehow not worshipping the same God as the rest of us.


If God and Allah are the same deity then it does not follow at all that "that Islam, being a subsequent progression in the revelation of God, must be a more complete revelation than Christianity or Judaism and that accordingly proper Jews and Christians should convert to Islam."

Just because Islam comes after Christianity makes it no better and no worse for that reason. It does not have to be 'a subsequent progression of the revelation of God'.

It could be lots of other things.

It could be a theology built around a numinous experience of that same God which through different human interpretation and different cultural conditioning comes up with a picture of that God which we disagree with.

It could be based on interpreting a psychological experience throught the lens of the Old testament and coming up with a radically different theology about God.


We don't need to accept Islam as a theology but as it explicitly directs worship to the same God that we read about in the Old testament and whom we worship, it does seem odd to talk about there being two different Gods involved here.

It's certainly not necessary.

Louise

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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
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# 30

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Cross posted with Hermit who said
quote:
"Purely your opinion, Olorin. As for therapy, I've met psychiatrists who believe literally that demons or other spirit entities exist. I don't know your religion, but Jesus seemed to believe demons exist, and I believe him.

At least one well-qualified psychiatrist I've read of believes in the reality of alien abduction - it doesn't make him right.

But personally, I don't care whether people believe demons exist or not, so long as they don't start labelling other people and their religious beliefs demonic.

Jesus certainly used the idiom of his time and culture when dealing with certain forms of mental illness - make of that what you will.

But when it came to dealing with people of other faiths - Samaritans and Romans - he was noticeably short on throwing demonic accusations around.

An example which it would be nice to see followed on this board.

Louise

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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
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# 1803

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As I said earlier, it's not certain that Muhammed was influenced by a demon, but a possibility. Jesus apparently believed in possession by evil spirits: Luke 24"When an evil[8] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' 25When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first."

Either you believe Jesus was the Son of God as he claimed in the gospels, or you don't. The Koran specifically and repeatedly said that is not true, Jesus was not the Son of God, God has no son, and Jesus was not crucified.

I choose to put my faith in the Gospels as being the word of God, meaning the Koran is not. It is at least possible that the Koran came from a demonic source. You may not like that, Louise, but truth doesn't always conform to ideology, not even very nice ideologies - such as the idea that all religions come from God, or that there are no evil spirits.

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anneman
Apprentice
# 1795

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It is idiotic to attempt to decern the one and only Highest Power through picking out unrelated texts separated by hundreds or thousands of years in time & culture & language. Especially when you get them wrong.

If all the Scriptures in the world were united in one volume & cross referrenced & annotated we still would not have the Truth of God but only our collected record of our experience of God through different cultural milieus over time.

Scripture may say "that no one comes to the father but through me" however I am sure that God is the one who decides if our particular pathway leads through christ or not irrespective as to whether we, ourselves are expecting it to. He might say "Go away I never knew you" ...no matter what we claim to have done in HER name. AngelsandWoMen@bigpond.com


Posts: 2 | From: my own planet | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hooker's Trick

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# 89

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quote:
Originally posted by hermit:
As I said earlier, it's not certain that Muhammed was influenced by a demon, but a possibility.

I do not believe that the Koran is true (otherwise I would be Muslim).

I do not believe that people should use grape juice for communion wine (otherwise I would be a Methodist).

But I do not believe that Methodists are inspired by daemons.

Just how do daemons get involved?

HT


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Astro
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# 84

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quote:
I do not believe that people should use grape juice for communion wine (otherwise I would be a Methodist).


HT does that mean that if the Methodists changed to using real wine you would become a Methodist?

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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)


Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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Or that Methodists are the only ones who use grape juice? Not.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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