homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Hell: The god of Islam is not the god of the bible (Page 4)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: The god of Islam is not the god of the bible
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
But I do not believe that Methodists are inspired by daemons.

Just how do daemons get involved?


Hooker's Trick, Muhammed (and the Koran) said that he was visited by a spirit entity in a cave that identified itself with the angel Gabriel of the Bible, and this creature delivered the Koran in stages over time.

If Muhammed was being truthful, then this either was Gabriel, it was a hallucination, or it was a demon.

Since Jesus and the NT writers believed in demons (although of course the word could also refer to other chronic maladies) those of us who believe in Jesus also believe there are demons - spirit entities who have chosen to rebel against God.

I can't imagine anyone calling himself a Christian, but denying there is good and evil, or good and evil persons.

Even Muhammed wasn't sure if Gabriel was a good or evil spirit, and I'll repeat the test his first wife made to discern whether the spirit was an angel:
We are told by Ibn Hesham, who wrote Muhammad's biography, that Khadija tested the spirit who squeezed Muhammad. She said to Muhammad: "Would you please tell me when the spirit comes to you?" When Muhammad told her of the spirit's arrival, Khadija said "Muhammad, sit on my left thigh." Muhammad sat on her left thigh. "Do you see the spirit?" she asked. "Yes." "Then sit on my right thigh." Muhammad sat on her right thigh. "Do you see the spirit?" she asked. "Yes," he answered. "Then sit on my lap." Muhammad sat on her lap. "Do you see the spirit?" she asked. "Yes," he answered. Khadija uncovered a feminine part of her body while Muhammad was sitting on her lap. "Do you see the spirit?" "No," he answered. Then Khadija said, "Muhammad, that spirit is an angel, not a devil" (Ibn Hesham, part 2, pages 74, 75).

Personally, I consider the test to be unconvincing, but then I'm not a Muslim.

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
It is at least possible that the Koran came from a demonic source. You may not like that, Louise, but truth doesn't always conform to ideology, not even very nice ideologies - such as the idea that all religions come from God, or that there are no evil spirits.


Let's talk about the terms 'possible' and 'not supported by the evidence'.

If I believed in fairies, I might think it possible that the Koran was dictated to the Prophet by a fairy and that he had just made a mistake about it being an angel.

However if the best evidence I could come up with for that was the exact same hadith as you cited, on the basis of which I declared

"If Muhammed was being truthful, then this was either was Gabriel, it was a hallucination, or it was a fairy."

And when asked well "WHY do you therefore think it had to be a fairy?" I replied "Well I'm sure it wasn't Gabriel, so if it wasn't a hallucination, it must be a fairy"

Then it might be pointed out to me that this was 'not supported by the evidence'.

Firstly because the evidence I was using was of dubious authenticity

(as the Hadith you cite may well be - we've yet to see its chain of guarantors or references to scholarship which would indicate whether that might be reliable or not, and given the fact that Hadith were not written down until many generations after the prophet, they need to be treated with enormous caution from a historical standpoint, anyway)

Secondly, it might be pointed out to me that even if my evidence was factual (which seems highly questionable) that it did not support my contention that if it wasn't Gabriel or a hallucination, then it HAD to be a fairy. The Hadith don't describe the being in the Cave (if there was one) - so if there was an 'it', which is not necessary, it could be anything. There is no positive evidence that the being is a fairy -it could for example be one of the prophet's mates dressed up as an angel for a lark - but there's no evidence for that either.

To which I could retort - 'Ah but it's in the nature of fairies to go round deceiving people and playing jokes on them and this sounds to me like a fairy having a laugh! It's possible that it's a fairy.'

And again people would point out to me patiently, "Yes, but even if you do believe in fairies - there's no evidence for it in this case, Louise. And you certainly haven't shown us why your explanation might be preferable to (1) the evidence being mistaken or (2) a psychological or physical explanation (fever, sleep deprivation, lucid dream, mate dressed as angel etc. etc)."

In fact , it might also be pointed out to me, that my theory for which I have so little evidence (you say it's Gabriel - I say it's a fairy!), is grossly offensive to Muslims, so why do I go around repeating it unless I want to cause offence by slandering the religion of others on very flimsy grounds?

To which of course, I could answer " How dare you! I have the truth! If you don't like it - tough! It's my Christian right to go around repeating offensive stuff about other people's religions based on highly dubious evidence! Isn't this how Jesus wanted us to behave to our neighbours?"

To which they might very well reply "No."


Which is what I think you're hearing from quite a lot of us here.

Louise

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Olorin
Shipmate
# 2010

 - Posted      Profile for Olorin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"Ohh get her!"
Bloody fairies get everywhere don't they?


--------------------
I wrestled with God, and lost by two falls & a submission.

Posts: 390 | From: Hammersmith, London | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

 - Posted      Profile for QLib   Email QLib   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
such as the idea that all religions come from God

Obviously this is wrong. Religions come from men. That's what causes all the trouble.

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.


Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If religions came from women, we wouldn't have such trouble.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
amen to that ruth....

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Olorin
Shipmate
# 2010

 - Posted      Profile for Olorin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just sacrificing corn men? Blood fests & frivolities?

--------------------
I wrestled with God, and lost by two falls & a submission.

Posts: 390 | From: Hammersmith, London | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

 - Posted      Profile for Hooker's Trick   Author's homepage   Email Hooker's Trick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Louise has done such a good job, but then I believe in gilding the lilly.

quote:
Originally posted by hermit:
Hooker's Trick, Muhammed (and the Koran) said that he was visited by a spirit entity in a cave that identified itself with the angel Gabriel of the Bible

John Wesley said his heart was strangley warmed. Hell is warm. Maybe it was the Devil.

[QOUTE]I can't imagine anyone calling himself a Christian, but denying there is good and evil, or good and evil persons.[/QUOTE]

I do not imagine that many Christians deny the existence of good and evil. But I also imagine that many Christians can accept the existence of good and evil without personifying those traits unto fairy-story bugaboos.

quote:
Khadija uncovered a feminine part of her body while Muhammad was sitting on her lap.

Well this is most excellent. Why don't we have more uncovered feminine parts in our holy writings?

By the way, not being an expert on Islam, could you help us to determine the canonical standard of the biography you cited?

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas tells of the life of the Infant and Boy Jesus. In this Gospel, Our little Lord smites his playmates when they do not do as he says, and withers recalcitrant schoolmasters. Most Christians no longer hold the Infancy Gospel as canon.

quote:
If Muhammed was being truthful, then this either was Gabriel, it was a hallucination, or it was a demon
.

Hildegard of Bingen was a Christian mystic of the 12th century who had visions of God. Some modern scholars now believe that poor old Hildy suffered from migraine. You could assert that her visions were brought on by bad headaches. Does that impact the truth or lack thereof of the lessons we can draw from Hildegard? Or imply that, since Our Lord would probably not willifully inflict debilitating anguish and pain on a poor nun in order to bring about heavenly visions, that Hidlegard's visions were the work of daemons?

Do you suppose that if Muhammed had only had a few Anadin the Koran might not have been written?


Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Let's talk about the terms 'possible' and 'not supported by the evidence'.

If I believed in fairies, I might think it possible that the Koran was dictated to the Prophet by a fairy and that he had just made a mistake about it being an angel.


Let's state it in a more general way - If Muhammed was being truthful about his vision, he was either hallucinating on the one hand (migraines, epilepsy or the wrong kind of mushrooms, whatever)or he was actually being visited by some sort of spirit being that called itself Gabriel. Of course one might consider outlandish ideas such as a joke by one of his companions, but let's stick to the main possibilities.

This spirit was either there at God's command (in which case you might call it a good fairy or an angel, or whatever you like), or it was not. In which case, lying about claiming to be from God and starting a false religion - that would indicate malicious intent, working against God.

But who believes in spirits or demons, in this day and age? Where is the evidence? What a horrible thing to do, to say there is even a possibility of a demon influencing a man to start a false religion, when we have no evidence there even is a God, or spirits, or ever was a Jesus who worked miracles.

Well, I've satisfied myself that there is a God, and the gospels are essentially accurate. This is not an apologetics thread but anyone who doubts that is welcome to PM me.

quote:
Let's talk about the terms 'possible' and 'not supported by the evidence'.


The evidence is that of the gospels and the words of Jesus. Jesus believed in good and evil, and good and evil persons. Further, he believed in demons and demon possession. I take his words and beliefs very seriously, since I at least am a Christian.

Call it a good fairy, a bad fairy, an angel or a demon - it is either for God or against God.

In addition to what Jesus said, there are simply loads of testimonies from people who have encountered good and evil spirit beings. Of course none of you have open enough minds to read about that, more's the pity.

Now since I have shown plenty of evidence that the Koran was not from God (which you may accept or decline) it follows that the main possibilities are hallucination or, (I won't say the D word since it upsets you so) a spirit entity which was rebelling against God.


.

quote:
It's my Christian right to go around repeating offensive stuff about other people's religions based on highly dubious evidence! Isn't this how Jesus wanted us to behave to our neighbours?"

I'm not at all interested in shying away from truth to suit some ideology, I want the full truth, whether or not it hurts someone's feelings. In fact, Jesus was very offensive to certain persons with false religious beliefs, wasn't he? And again, the beliefs of Jesus about ANY spiritual matter are not dubious.
quote:
. But I also imagine that many Christians can accept the existence of good and evil without personifying those traits unto fairy-story bugaboos.

Sure they can, but that's not what Jesus taught.
quote:
Well this is most excellent. Why don't we have more uncovered feminine parts in our holy writings?


I suppose it would make them more interesting ... Jesus did heal that woman with the bleeding, but as far as we know she remained clothed.
quote:
By the way, not being an expert on Islam, could you help us to determine the canonical standard of the biography you cited?


Certainly ... according to my Islamometer, it registers a 37.

Now concerning Hildegard, if there were objective signs such as miraculous healings witnessed by reliable persons, we might conclude that her visions were from God, and the scholars who put it all down to migraines are ... how shall I say it? Full of academic rot?

Every saint has suffered. Life is suffering, according to the Buddha (and me). If there were no value to suffering, it would not happen.

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

 - Posted      Profile for Sarkycow   Email Sarkycow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hermit:
[QUOTE]The evidence is that of the gospels and the words of Jesus. Jesus believed in good and evil, and good and evil persons. Further, he believed in demons and demon possession. I take his words and beliefs very seriously, since I at least am a Christian

(italics mine)

I don't like your tone of type here hermit. What are you suggesting/insinuating?

quote:
In addition to what Jesus said, there are simply loads of testimonies from people who have encountered good and evil spirit beings. Of course none of you have open enough minds to read about that, more's the pity

I don't *think* (and I may be wrong here, sorry if I am) that anyone here is arguing against the existence of demons per se. I think they are taking issue with the allegation that Islam is directly inspired by the devil/a demon and that the religion itself is demonic.

quote:
If there were no value to suffering, it would not happen.

So what is the value of an 80-yr old woman being brutally attacked and raped in her own home? She later died of her injuries.

What is the value of a young family's house being burnt to the ground a few days before Christmas?

What is the value of children dying of malnourishment in Ethiopia?

Please don't be trite. Thank-you

Viki

--------------------
“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”


Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
I don't like your tone of type here hermit. What are you suggesting/insinuating?


Not everyone on this thread is a Christian, unless I'm mistaken. By their own admission, I mean ... and some merely think of him as a wise man, from the looks of things. Correct me if I'm wrong.
quote:
I don't *think* (and I may be wrong here, sorry if I am) that anyone here is arguing against the existence of demons per se. I think they are taking issue with the allegation that Islam is directly inspired by the devil/a demon and that the religion itself is demonic.
No, some have doubted the existence of demons ... have a look through the thread, it's long but interesting. I've only said it is possible that the Gabriel who allegedly visited Muhammed in the cave and delivered the revelation, is a demon. Another possibility is hallucination, but it seems a bit lengthy and coherent for that. Another possibility would be a hoax by Muhammed. Least likely to me is the possibility that it was an actual angel sent by God.
quote:
So what is the value of an 80-yr old woman being brutally attacked and raped in her own home? She later died of her injuries.

What is the value of a young family's house being burnt to the ground a few days before Christmas?

What is the value of children dying of malnourishment in Ethiopia?

Please don't be trite. Thank-you


So you've discovered that life is full of suffering, and that we eventually die of one cause or another. How would I know the value of particular instances of suffering? I'm not God. But I believe we wouldn't be involved in a system where everyone suffers and dies if there were no reason for it.

What if everyone just painlessly floated through life? How would we develop character and individuality? Some of the most treasured memories I have in my life are of the most painful moments, the struggles and lessons I learned.

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
just curious, hermit, but who on this thread do you think isn't christian?

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nicole, I looked back over the thread and found only Ariel ... also jlg is apparently more an eclectic Bahai type, not particularly Christian. More Christians than I thought! I may have been confusing with some other thread.

I myself am an unorthodox sort of Christian, I also take wisdom from Buddhism, Hinduism, and near-death experiences (but more speculatively, where they don't clash with the NT and help explain puzzling sayings of Jesus).

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

 - Posted      Profile for Ariel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, do tell. Does that mean views expressed by such people may be safely ignored, or regarded as having lesser weight?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
GRRRRRRR - preparing to leap to Ariel's defence. Subsiding, as realise that I'm probably behaving in a patronising manner

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

 - Posted      Profile for Ariel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Offering moral support is not patronizing in my view. Thank you. Let's see if I get an answer.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steve_R
Shipmate
# 61

 - Posted      Profile for Steve_R   Email Steve_R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Yes, do tell. Does that mean views expressed by such people may be safely ignored, or regarded as having lesser weight?

No, Ariel. What hermit is actually insinuating, to my mind, is that if we don't believe in demons then, since Christ did, we are not Christian.

--------------------
Love and Kisses, Steve_R


Posts: 990 | From: East Sussex | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

 - Posted      Profile for Siegfried   Author's homepage   Email Siegfried   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd suggest that we hold off on further discussion on this particular tangent until Hermit has had time to reply.
In the meantime, I notice that Ender's Shadow, the OP, hasn't contributed since the 23rd, which is about the time Hermit started pushing his demon dictation campaign. I personally am wondering if the OP has any more comments on his original thesis?

--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Olorin:
"Ohh get her!"
Bloody fairies get everywhere don't they?


Yes, they do. Though I don't think it very likely that they'd dictate the Koran somehow.

"I thought fairies did nice things -- like -- like granting wishes!"

"Huh! Shows what you know."

--- from Labyrinth

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity


Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

 - Posted      Profile for Ender's Shadow   Email Ender's Shadow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well - I'm pleased to see that my absence has been noticed; and pleased that one of my first attempts to ask a hard question has generated so many responses... But on the whole I don't have a great deal more to offer. I probably agree with most of what Hermit is saying, and I don't disagree enough to want to detract from his argument! And crtainly his references are fascinating; thanks Hermit for them.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

 - Posted      Profile for Hooker's Trick   Author's homepage   Email Hooker's Trick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Have you had a lot of near-death experiences then, Hermit?
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you, Ender's Shadow.
quote:
Yes, do tell. Does that mean views expressed by such people may be safely ignored, or regarded as having lesser weight?
Where did this come from, Ariel? I was saying that as a Christian I tend to believe what Jesus said. I'm aware that others who are not Christian don't, and that you have said you aren't a Christian.
quote:
What hermit is actually insinuating, to my mind, is that if we don't believe in demons then, since Christ did, we are not Christian.

There is no requirement to believe in demons to be a Christian, but shouldn't a Christian tend to believe what Jesus taught? I understand that some consider themselves Christian in a purely cultural way, just something they've been brought up in, but I have a hard time relating to that.

However, of course there is a great deal of leeway in the interpretation of what the word may have meant, some might argue that it was a catch-all word for unnamed illnesses. However, I believe it also meant spirit entities.

quote:
Have you had a lot of near-death experiences then, Hermit?
Do I detect a little smirk on your face, Hooker's Trick? No, I've never had one, but have had a few out-of-body experiences (astral projection). I do enjoy reading about NDE's, in fact tend to believe some of them are modern-day revelations from God. http://near-death.com/

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine

Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Here are some recent scholarly views of the evolution of the Koran: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/02ISLA.html?pagewanted=all

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine

Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

 - Posted      Profile for Ariel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hermit:
Where did this come from, Ariel? I was saying that as a Christian I tend to believe what Jesus said. I'm aware that others who are not Christian don't, and that you have said you aren't a Christian.

1) I don't believe in the divinity of Christ. That's one of the main reasons why I left the church. It doesn't mean I reject all his teachings.

2) It's still quite possible to believe in the existence of demons, or negative entities.

3) Your response to Sarkycow struck me as being slightly ambiguous. While it's possible I haven't interpreted it in the way you intended, I should still like some clarification on the question I've now raised. You are not obliged to answer, but I would still be interested to know. A simple yes or no would clear it up either way.


Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

 - Posted      Profile for jlg   Email jlg   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was raised as a Baha'i, hermit, but haven't considered myself a member of that Faith for about 35 years now. I'm still strongly influenced by Buddhist and Hindu thought, but since I will be baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic this Easter, I think you should count me as a Christian for official purposes here. (And if you're still fooling around with astral projections, then your Christian status might be even more suspect than mine!)
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Yes, do tell. Does that mean views expressed by such people may be safely ignored, or regarded as having lesser weight?
No.

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine

Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

 - Posted      Profile for Ariel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Poet_of_Gold
Shipmate
# 2071

 - Posted      Profile for Poet_of_Gold     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gal:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

2Cor:4:4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 11:13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

It is not impossible that Mohammed was deceived.


Posts: 204 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Most of the stuff in the New York Times has been around for a while. A more in-depth article can be found in The Atlantic Magazine

But I'm surprised you post this Hermit, because it undermines your argument about demons.

If the Koran was actually something which evolved over 100-200 years of oral traditon, then the likelihood that it was dictated entire by a spirit in a cave seems remote and the probability of pious fictions being inserted in the tradition becomes much higher.

Also as has already been pointed out to you the historical value of hadith is greatly disputed. The scholars like Wansborough and Crone cited in the article you post would place very little reliance on hadith for actually telling us anything about the time of the prophet. None of them were written down until about 200 years after his death.


You also cite (and I intially missed this because you used an antique spelling of his name)Ibn Hisham's rescension of the earlier lost life of the prophet made by Ibn Ishaq - the Sirhat. This is a 9th century version of a lost 8th century original. It mixes large amounts of hagiography with its history and is not a contemporary source for the events it recounts.

In other words this approach does not support treating the angel story as something to be literally believed and interpreted demonically. Quite the opposite.

One thing which the modern research does stress however is the very high original Christian and Judaic content of Islam and that this faith has alwys seen itself as worshipping the same God as we do - the God of the patriarchs.

Louise

PS. Since when did posting a bunch of proof-texts wrested out of context constitute an argument?

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The PS. was to Poet - sorry for ambiguity.

L.

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
But I'm surprised you post this Hermit, because it undermines your argument about demons.

If the Koran was actually something which evolved over 100-200 years of oral traditon, then the likelihood that it was dictated entire by a spirit in a cave seems remote and the probability of pious fictions being inserted in the tradition becomes much higher.


The article is highly speculative - remember that the new wave of Koran scholars are trying to pattern themselves after the sort of biblical scholar who 50 years was insisting the gospels had multiple authors, and were written hundreds of years after the death of the "legendary" Jesus. They jump wildly to conclusions based on a very few shaky facts.

However, I try not to become emotionally committed to an argument, and like to present alternative views.

Thank you for the additional information, but remember that most Muslims are not sophisticated academics, MOST believe the hadiths are very reliable, the Koran being the first leg and the Sunnah the secong.

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

 - Posted      Profile for sharkshooter     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Back to the OP, did anybody ask a Muslim if they believe their Allah is the same as the Christian God?

Perhaps if anyone has had such discussions, that input would be insightful here.

--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]


Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Hermit:

quote:
I've only said it is possible that the Gabriel who allegedly visited Muhammed in the cave and delivered the revelation, is a demon. Another possibility is hallucination, but it seems a bit lengthy and coherent for that. Another possibility would be a hoax by Muhammed. Least likely to me is the possibility that it was an actual angel sent by God.

So it is possible that an entity which may or may not have visited the Prophet Mohammed may or may not have been a demon. Bravo!

Can I address the 'hallucination' theory for a moment. Lots of people have had visions and heard voices in their lives. They were not all mad, nor were they in touch with supernatural entities. This is one of the ways in which human psychology works. What matters is the content of these visions. The Emperor Julian, for example, believed himself to be in constant contact with the Gods of Greece and, by his own lights, he was quite sensible to do so, until he lost the plot and invaded Persia,they gave him very helpful advice.

Unless you can give me an example of an instance where the Prophet Mohammed had access to information he could not have possibly known by natural means, it seems much more rational and in keeping with the available evidence - not to mention charitable,to assume that the Prophet's visions were the work of his own psychology and not attributable to any kind of maleficient entity.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton


Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry, guys, been away for a while, and needed to catch up on reading this thread before posting.

Louise, I hope we can agree to differ on this one. We can argue this one back and forth until the cows come home, but ultimately it comes down to what we respectively believe. I believe that God has revealed Himself to us already in the person of Jesus Christ and that the subsequent revelation of God that Islam claims for itself contradicts this; ergo, they cannot be one and the same. I guess it does depend on what you make of Jn 14:6, and I would be genuinely interested if you (or indeed anyone else)could find the archived discussion thread on this point. But at the end of the day it is clear that we do believe fundamentally different things on this issue; whilst I respect your view, I cannot agree with it.

Hermit - thanks for your response to my previous post. As a former Catholic, I cannot recall to what extent Rahner's 'anonymous Christian' idea was imported into Vatican II or beyond (I seem to recall that whilst it wasn't adopted wholesale, it was influential), but I think what you say amounts to a pretty close interpretation of what Rahner said (and, FWIW, my own view.

Cheers

Matt

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)


Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Apologies for second post, but to answer Sharkshooter, my schoolfriend Mohammed would have been scandalised by the notion that Allah and the Christian God were one and the same; he considered the idea blasphemous

Matt

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)


Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

 - Posted      Profile for sharkshooter     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Matt:

That is also the impression I got from a discussion on Islam at church last night. The former Muslims in attendance there gave a distinct impression that they would agree with your statement.

I still can't understand why there is so much disagreement here.

--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]


Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Try typing "muslims Christians same God" into Google.

Out of the first 50 links you'll find ALL of the ones which insist that Christians and Muslims don't worship the same God seem to come from a very conservative evangelical Christian viewpoint.

None of the muslim sites make such a claim at all. In fact, I couldn't find a single muslim site which claimed that Muslims Christians and Jews worshipped different Gods.

I suppose there might be Muslim fundamentalist sites which do make such a claim, but they didn't show up. Even a pretty anti-semitic site (www.submission.org)still admitted that Christians and Jews worshipped the same God as Muslims.

A few examples

University of Nottingham Islamic Society

[URL=http://www.welcome-back.org/ ]welcome back to Islam for converts[/URL]

[URL=http://www.submission.org/christians/friends.html ]Submission (has anti semitic comments)[/URL]

Muslims would indeed be scandalised at the thought of worshipping Jesus (which to them would constitute idolatry - elevating a human to the level of the Divine), but if we're talking about the First person of the Trinity, then Islamic teaching seems to be very clear that Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God.

Can either of you find mainstream Muslim websites denying that Christians worship the same God as Muslims ?

Louise

PS I was interested to see that even the current Pope, not noted as a liberal, thinks Muslims and Christians worship the same God, so it seems does the Archbishop of Canterbury. seeBBC Christians and Muslims article)

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

 - Posted      Profile for sharkshooter     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
OK, try typing "muslim christian different god" into google and you get:

This one

or:

This other one

However,

1. Just because it is on the internet, doesn't make it true. I would rather take a persons word on it.

2. What is wrong with conservative evangelicals?

3. Actually, I was told (by ex-muslims) that Muslims believe that Christianity is not monotheistic but polytheistic, we have 3 or 4 gods, (1) the Father, (2) Jesus, (3) the Holy Spirit, and (maybe) (4) Mary.

--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]


Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
sharkshooter, that first site is not a muslem site. it is in fact an anti-muslem site. please check things out more carefully.

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well you number one website turns out to be


"dedicated to informing the public about the religion of Islam from a Christian perspective. It primarily contains the writings and videos of renowned Biblical and Islamic scholar,Dr. Labib Mikhail. Dr. Labib is a former professor of homiletics from the Faith Mission Bible College in Cairo, Egypt."

Look at it's Home page!


I asked you for an ISLAMIC site ie. a site by a Muslim, giving Muslim teachings as they are generally understood and accepted by some mainstream part of Islam.This is plainly another evangelical Christian site. Citing evangelical Christina sites shows what some evangelical Christians believe - not what Muslims believe which is what you asked about.

Off to check out the other one.

L.

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

 - Posted      Profile for daisymay     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know quite a few Muslims who believe that God/Allah is One and the same. Even some of them come into our church, or give gifts of cakes. They do not believe that Jesus is God, though.

My Arabic-speaking (and evangelical) Christian friends from Egypt used to wear little jewellery on necklets saying "Allah Mahub" (please excuse if that is not quite right) which means "God is Love". They said it was the 100th Name of God that was not known in Islam.

There is only One God Who created the universe. So how can we be worshipping a diferent one? Both the Bible and the Koran admit this; Mahommed rebuked the Jews for not following God's laws, not for worshipping someone else.

--------------------
London
Flickr fotos


Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Louise
Shipmate
# 30

 - Posted      Profile for Louise   Email Louise   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And you're wrong again on your second site.

It is actually Islamic,which is a start, but all it's denying is a Trinitarian understanding of God as any Muslim site would), it's not claiming that Christians worship another God.

It is, in fact, absolutely explicit in its belief that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

Islam a brief introduction

The internet can be an excellent source of information if you use it intelligently by checking out the home pages of sites, and looking around rather than just snatching at the first link offered by a search engine without checking it's source or context.

I looked at several other articles on that site, including their article on Jesus. They all confirm that they see Jesus as a messenger of the same God they worship. the link you post simply shows that they don't believe in the Trinity.

Not the same thing.

Louise

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.


Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Poet_of_Gold
Shipmate
# 2071

 - Posted      Profile for Poet_of_Gold     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have spoken to many Muslims in chat rooms, who have tried sincerely and respectfully to convert me to their faith. They seem to see it as a mission to come to Christian chats and see if they can save any of us. I find these efforts of a kindly intent from their point of view, and I have learned from them that they do indeed see Christians as polytheistic.

As to those texts, they are referring to the possiblity that even visions seen as angels and light messengers can in fact be deceptions. Without the Spirit of God to help one discern the truth, angels should only be believed if what they say corresponds with Scriptures. (Not that I have conversed with any.)


Posts: 204 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
but if we're talking about the First person of the Trinity, then Islamic teaching seems to be very clear that Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God.

In my own debates with Muslims, they have claimed Allah is God, and this is a good summary.

Yaffle, Muslims do indeed claim that certain passages of the Koran indicate knowledge Muhammed couldn't have had, such as the development of a fetus, the existence of quasars, and a few other odds and ends. To them it proves the Koran is from God ... I doubt their references, but if they are right I suppose it would bolster the demonic possession theory (to me, at least!). And by the way, I don't disbelieve that Julian was in communication with demons, hallucinations rarely last very long or give coherent and useful information.

Muslims have gotten some big name embryologists to sign on to the theory that Muhammed had supernatural knowledge of embryonic development, shown here:
022.005
YUSUFALI: O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Matt, this is from a Vatican II document: 3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the
one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful,
the Creator of heaven and earth (5), who has spoken to men; they take
pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as
Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes great pleasure in linking
itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as
God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin
mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition,
they await the day of judgement when God will render their deserts to
all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value
the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving
and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities
have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this Sacred Synod urges
all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding
and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all
mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and
freedom.

The entire document, a "DECLARATION
ON THE RELATION OF THE
CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN
RELIGIONS", can be found at http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/nostra.aet

It seems very reasonable to me.

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Hermit:

quote:
Yaffle, Muslims do indeed claim that certain passages of the Koran indicate knowledge Muhammed couldn't have had, such as the development of a fetus, the existence of quasars, and a few other odds and ends. To them it proves the Koran is from God ... I doubt their references, but if they are right I suppose it would bolster the demonic possession theory (to me, at least!). And by the way, I don't disbelieve that Julian was in communication with demons, hallucinations rarely last very long or give coherent and useful information.

Hermit, the problem with your worldview is that you seem to be suggesting that anyone who has had a vision, that did not confirm the Nicene creed (conservative evangelical version) was in fact encountering the Prince of Darkness. There are a number of problems with this approach.

It overlooks the fact that there is a great deal of scientific evidence to suggest that visions are caused by something that happens to the brain. They are not merely spiritual events but physiological events. They tend to be interpreted according to the predisposition of the person who sees them, which explains the fact that Our Lady tends to appear a lot in Catholic countries whilst eschewing the protestant world. (Has it ever occured to you to wonder why Our Lady spends all this time appearing to devout Catholic peasants when, by appearing in Mecca during the Haj, she could settle everything once and for all?). It also explains why religious visions tends to be congenial to the theology of the observer. Why didn't God tell Loyola, for example, that religious intolerance was a bad thing?

Futhermore the quality of revelation tends to depend on the quality of the moral and intellectual capacity of the observer. Which is why you get, on the one hand, the Theophany of the Prophet Isaiah and on the other hand the rather banal "And then I, like, realised that deep down I'm me" quality of revelation from New Agers and its Christian twin, the Charismatic movement. Or the variable quality of supernatural advice which was proffered to the Emperor Julian or Joan of Arc.

It is quite possible to explain the visions of Mohammed without recourse to Supernatural intervention, in which case Occams razor suggests that this is the explanation we should favour. The reason for this intellectual parsimony is simple - time and again it has been shown to be effective. We no longer attribute crop failure to witchcraft because exorcism has had mixed results in dealing with crop failure. Anyone who has been to agricultural college will be able to suggest ways of explaining and rectifying the situation which would be beyond the capacity of the most skilled exorcist of the pre-modern period.

Quite simply the majority of things which exist in this world have natural explanations, the visions of saints, heathens and heretics among them. To abandon a search for natural phenomena is to have recourse to a paranoid universe where everything and everyone we don't like is the result of bad ju-ju. The reason that this has been abandoned is not some historic mass apostasy arranged by the Satanic forces of modernism. It is because observation and experience show that damning everything we dislike or fear leads to great evil. The 'back to the Malleus' theology which seems to pervade a great deal of Christian discourse about the devil should be resisted not merely on enlightened, rational and scientific grounds but on Christian grounds.

Finally, may I observe in passing that the example of the Prophet's grasp on the finer matters of embyology cited in your post would, frankly, not be beyond my own scant grasp of the subject. There are no mysteries there that would not have been common knowledge in the 7th Century AD. The observation that humans are created from sperm would, if taken literally, would tend to ignore the fairly pivotal role played by the egg during the process of conception which I believe was the folk belief until the development of, ta-da!, the modern science of embryology.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton


Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

 - Posted      Profile for Hooker's Trick   Author's homepage   Email Hooker's Trick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Yaffle:
why Our Lady spends all this time appearing to devout Catholic peasants

My dear professor, surely these devout peasants have actually been conversing with the Great Deceiver, dressing himself up in a blue frock and popping up in warm climes?


Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Yaffle:
there is a great deal of scientific evidence to suggest that visions are caused by something that happens to the brain. They are not merely spiritual events but physiological events.

I'd say that they are or can be partly caused by something physiological; it does not therefore follow that they are wholly caused that way. God, or other entities (benevolent or malign) could use that mechanism as an element in a genuine vision -- perhaps even if it appeared wholly explicable by something in the brain. (After all, many of us believe that water, bread, wine, oil, etc. have mystical properties when blessed by a priest or bishop -- it does not mean that water stops being H2O. Some believe that the bread and wine only still appear to be bread and wine in Communion, some believe it becomes the Body and Blood of Christ on a mystical but not physical level.)

Perhaps that part or nature of the brain is like a dock, from which a ship may set sail, but the destination can vary from crashing on the rocks to travelling to foreign ports to being shanghaied by pirates to going home...

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity


Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:

quote:
My dear professor, surely these devout peasants have actually been conversing with the Great Deceiver, dressing himself up in a blue frock and popping up in warm climes?

I thought you'd given up gin for lent.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton


Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
hermit
Shipmate
# 1803

 - Posted      Profile for hermit   Email hermit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hmmm, Yaffle, lots of food for thought in your post. Let me begin with the limitations of Occam's Razor - surely you know the Razor is wielded by modern skeptics to deny that there is sufficient evidence to believe in God? Yet I see by your profile that you apparently do believe in Him, unless you are attending church from a love of pews and stained glass windows.

Even in science, the principle of parsimony is a helpful guideline, it doesn't always lead to truth. Sometimes a more complicated hypothesis turns out to be the winner. And had Newton been handed Einsteins Special Relativity, he would have slashed it away, since he didn't have the experimental evidence about the constancy of the speed of light. Yet Relativity better explains the world than Newtonian mechanics.

If we believe in the testimony of the gospels, and that at least the words of Jesus are from God (if not every opinion of NT writers), then there is no reason to disbelieve Christ's teachings about demons - he had knowledge of a realm we don't have enough data to speculate about.

quote:
Hermit, the problem with your worldview is that you seem to be suggesting that anyone who has had a vision, that did not confirm the Nicene creed (conservative evangelical version) was in fact encountering the Prince of Darkness. There are a number of problems with this approach.


Yaffle, you might wish to read through the thread - it is long but interesting. I'm not a conservative evangelical, that's Ender's Shadow. I'm an eclectic unorthodox sort of Christian, who believes Hindus and Buddhists have had their share of God's light and revelations.

But of course I believe evil spirit entities demons, exist and can influence human affairs. That's what Jesus taught.

Visions conforming to a person's background and culture ... I think about this constantly, in fact, but it would be wandering too far from the OP to comment much on that. Of course the brain and physiology are involved, but sometimes there is a genuine message from God, or some kind of spirit entity. I would guess (as you suggested) that if there is information the person could not have gotten through normal means, or if there are miracles witnessed by several reliable witnesses, the event is supernatural.

Personally, I've known many people with mental illness and hallucinations - they are usually short in duration and not nearly as coherent as the Koran, which is why I doubt that hypothesis. I doubt any lengthy, coherent hallucination is from a purely hallucinatory, physiological source.

Muhammed produced no miracles, but there are the claims of knowledge a seventh century man who was semiliterate couldn't have gotten. If true (I'm certainly not convinced) it would indicate "Gabriel" was a spirit entity as Muhammed believed. Since the Koran directly contradicts the gospels on important issues, saying Jesus was not the Son of God and was not crucified, it could very well be that it was inspired by a malign spirit entity, one working against God - a demon.

The other options (hallucinations, the lefty Koran scholars' hypotheses, etc) are certainly possible. I believe we "see through a glass darkly", there is a great deal of mystery concerning spiritual matters, which will someday be cleared up when God's laws and all knowledge will be "written on our hearts."

So I can live with many possibilities in this issue.

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine


Posts: 812 | From: Seattle | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools