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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Hell: The god of Islam is not the god of the bible (Page 6)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: The god of Islam is not the god of the bible
Nicolemr
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yaffle, thank you. thats what i was trying to get at all those posts ago with my college president analogy.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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splodge
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Yaffle, I really like your elephants and documentary analogy a lot. Excellently explained.

It chimes with my research that at the heart of all religion is an awareness of the same God - it is surely this awareness, this "eternity set in the hearts of men" that drives the religious impulse in the first place. But of course God's nature is perceived and misperceived, understood and distorted in every religion. Thus IMO every religion including Islam has a greater or lesser understanding of God and his ways.
The fact that all religious people are in a sense seeking God, albeit in very crude, half blind, even harmful ways sometimes, is the best explanation account to for the commonalities and "perennial philosophy" shared by all faiths.
So yes, Allah is the same God as the christian God but God's nature as revealed in Christ and recorded in the bible is misunderstood or inadequately realised by muslims
(however this is no racial slur, for Mohammed & muslim probably have no more an inadequate and distorted understanding of christian doctrine than you would also find among members of the average unchurched white "christian" population)

It might be worth mentioning that muslims believe that we, the 'Ahl-kitab' the people of the book = jews & christians, do have the same God as them, but that we have distorted the testimony of our own prophets e.g moses, jesus who basically taught pure Islam.

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Splodge


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Ender's Shadow
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A further example of the difference between the God of Islam and the God of the Old Testament has emerged recently: the willingness of Islamic Jihad / Hamas to kill randomly and in large numbers for the targeted killing of their members. This is in blatant violation of the OT rule that revenge must be limited to an eye for an eye, so the maximum they can claim to kill in response is one Israeli leader. Instead they go all out...

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Eanswyth

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That's like saying that the God of the Catholic Church is not the God of the Bible because the IRA kill innocent people. What crap! [Disappointed] [Roll Eyes]
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Liopleurodon

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I'm not intimately acquainted with the Qu'ran (my Bible knowledge is shaky enough) but if you think that Islam is an inherently nasty religion I think you should take this quiz from our old friends at the Landover Baptist parody site and check out the answers.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Eanswyth:
That's like saying that the God of the Catholic Church is not the God of the Bible because the IRA kill innocent people. What crap! [Disappointed] [Roll Eyes]

Oh please - the modern IRA is not Catholic, it is explicitly atheist and Marxist, and doesn't seek the commendation of the church. By contrast Al-Quieda etc claims to be good Muslims, so this is a more valid question.

Note that this is an OLD thread which I started, so Skielight, you need to be cautious about rushing into the debate without reading at least some of this thread; your point is discussed implicitly elsewhere.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Eanswyth

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Hello! Wakey, wakey! The IRA used to play the oppressed Catholic card to get sympathy from Irish-Americans. JUST LIKE the terrorist group Al Qaida play the Islam card to get sympathy. They are both a bunch of terrorists who use/have used a veneer of religion to try to fool the public. Al Qaida claim to be good Muslims, but a majority of Muslims renounce their practices.

[ 27. August 2003, 00:24: Message edited by: Eanswyth ]

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Liopleurodon

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:


Note that this is an OLD thread which I started, so Skielight, you need to be cautious about rushing into the debate without reading at least some of this thread; your point is discussed implicitly elsewhere.

I've read the whole thing. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I haven't heard the arguments, many, many times before. I know that the point has been made implicitly: I wanted to make it again, in more explicit tones. It was this kind of argument that put me off religion for years. [Disappointed] As for it being an old thread, it was you who dredged it up again recently, not me.

As for my faith: I'm a Christian. That's a working hypothesis. It's not a "la la la I can't hear you" statement to the "opposition". Although I'm not a Muslim, I'm perfectly happy to accept that Islam is the working hypothesis of other people. Had I been born in Iran, it's highly unlikely that I would have come to Christianity so there's no call for me to be smug about anything.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Ender's Shadow
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Wow Skielight, my honest and sincere congratulations on reading the whole of it - that's a major achievement. I'd love to contribute to the gay thread but don't have the enthusiasm to wade through it all....

But I'm still missing something - what is the core of your objection to this approach? Are you saying that you don't believe it is possible for it to be true that Islam is a false religion? And that such a claim must be automatically rejected? On what grounds? If there are false spirits out there in objective rebellion against God, then it is not unreasonable to argue that they would do something like this. To assume that it doesn't happen is either the same argument as David Hume follows against the Ressurrection, and is equally impossible to establish, or the essentially liberal argument that God wouldn't allow it to happen, ignoring the hints in the NT about the God of this world blinding the eyes of unbelievers. In both cases your argument is strongly dependent on a certain set of presuppositions, which are not uncontestable.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Callan
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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Eanswyth:
That's like saying that the God of the Catholic Church is not the God of the Bible because the IRA kill innocent people. What crap!
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Oh please - the modern IRA is not Catholic, it is explicitly atheist and Marxist, and doesn't seek the commendation of the church. By contrast Al-Quieda etc claims to be good Muslims, so this is a more valid question.

This is splitting hairs. Whatever the appropriateness of the specific example of the IRA (which was supported by Catholic Clergy and laity, although not officially by the hierarchy and certainly not by the Holy Father) it is hardly difficult to find instances of religious atrocities committed in the name of God by Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants: by both Christians and Jews. It is intellectually disreputable to point to their murderers as evidence that Islam was inspired by Auld Hornie, whilst writing off our murderers as an unfortunate lapse. Sectarian drivel is the kindest description of such a position.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Orb

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The God of Islam IS the God of the Bible. Because God is far above any human constructions of Him. We can never entirely conceive even our own tradition's conception of God, in my view.

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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sharkshooter

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In order to understand God, we have to combine the different understandings of God as determined by Christians and Muslims? Following that line, we would have to include what every other religion and cult believe God to be and combine them into one being, whom we should worship.

I don't think so.

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Orb

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
In order to understand God, we have to combine the different understandings of God as determined by Christians and Muslims?

Did I say that? No.

quote:
Following that line, we would have to include what every other religion and cult believe God to be and combine them into one being, whom we should worship.
Why? You jump from A to B too quickly, and I never took away the exclusivity of Christianity!

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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Ender's Shadow
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Let's restate the question that I am asking and see if people can respond to that question: is the 'God' who sent 'Gabriel' to give 'The Prophet' the Koran

a) The same God as the one who spoke to Abraham and the prophets and who can to earth as Jesus

b) A figment of 'the Prophet's' imagination

c) Another spirit who is an enemy of the one true God who intentionally set out to deceive this man / worked with the man to deceive his listeners

I'm a fan of view c. Which doesn't prevent some people within Islam ending up in practice worshipping the true God, but it makes it a lot harder than if the prophet had not a spokesman for a deceiving spirit.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Callan
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The irony is, of course, that you are working from a position of Quranic literalism. i.e. you are assuming that the accounts of Mohammed being visited by an Angel in the Quran are true, but disputing the identity of the Angel in question. Furthermore you overlook the results of recent scholarship which suggest that the Quran is both more recent and more heterogenous than Islamic accounts would indicate.

What if Mohammed wasn't visited by an Angel but his visions were the result of psychosomatic causes? Lots of people see Angels, I'm surely not obliged to believe that all the Angels in question are genuine. There seem to me three possible positions.

1/ All visions have supernatural causes.
2/ Some visions have supernatural causes.
3/ No visions have supernatural causes.

Now unless one is committed to the first of these propositions it is the simpler and more defensible position - unless, of course one is a Muslim - to suggest that Mohammed didn't encounter a supernatural being. It seems absurdly superstitious to assume that any given account of a supernatural occurrence has supernatural causes and that those "supernatural" occurences one disapproves of are clearly the work of Mephistopheles.

I think Ender, that having committed yourself to a fundamentalist interpretation of revelation, you are projecting this onto the Quran. If our texts were revealed by supernatural entities, their texts must be. But they disagree with us therefore their texts must be revealed by bad supernatural entities. You therefore, as has been pointed out, commit yourself to an interpretation of history where our lot must be given the benefit of the doubt whereas their lot must be judged by their worst possible manifestations in order to give credence to the thesis of Satanic inspiration.

I beg you to consider the role of the human, the contingent, the historical and the natural in the affairs of the Great Religions. The causes of violence and atrocity in human history do not derive from Beelzebub whispering falsehoods in peoples ears but rather from the assumption that ones own group possesses the Truth in all its fulness whereas all other beliefs are Satanic counterfeits.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Ender's Shadow
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It's a far comment to argue that perhaps Mohammed's visions were not the result of a spiritual encounter but psychosomatic; quite where that leaves their authority is however less clear - that his material still clearly contradicts the bible in vast swathes still remains clear, though it does reduce the light cast on the original issue of this thread.

What however I am far less happy with is the suggestion that Mohammed didn't get the Koran all at once - that in effect he lied about it's origin. It is mainstream to make the same allegation about the book of Revelation - that John wrote it over an extended period, and not as a result of a single vision, and I'm not a fan of that view either. However with the Koran there is the fact that the only miracle which Mohammed makes claim to is his reception of the book, and so we are placing him in the position of being a total charlatan. I guess I prefer simple solutions and trusting people to say what they mean, and either accept the whole package or nothing....

Perhaps we can agree that 'the inspiration of the Koran is not the God who inspired the Old and New Testaments'? This covers both the position that it was given by another spiritual entity or that it was created by Mohammed.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Liopleurodon

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

But I'm still missing something - what is the core of your objection to this approach? Are you saying that you don't believe it is possible for it to be true that Islam is a false religion? And that such a claim must be automatically rejected? On what grounds?

A little about my background: I was raised as an atheist. I've come to Christianity very recently. Although my background is in atheism, I was nonetheless taught to be respectful of other people's religious beliefs. Part of my objection to religion of any kind was that I saw it as arrogant and intolerant.

Of course I understand that it can't be the case that every word of every religious belief is true. It's only logical that if two religions say the opposite of each other, only one can be right. However, I don't think it is our job as God's servants to demonise a people or their beliefs. If we were servants in a house we would not be expected to discipline other servants of the same rank for making mistakes. If you find something like that going on, I believe, stay within your job description and let the boss deal with it. Faith behoves us to be humble, after all. I think if I had been born in a Muslim part of the world, I probably would have sought God through Islam. Am I to argue that, in addition to all the great luxuries and privileges that are granted to me as a member of the western world, I get eternal life due to an accident of geography? Maintaining my own faith is work enough without putting effort into condemning someone else's.

What is the basis for Islam? I have no idea. I'm not informed enough to know, beyond the basic RE lesson type level. I know a great deal about atheists and I know that they are often no better or worse morally than many Christians, in spite of the fact that they don't follow Jesus. I know a great many Christians who assume that they are morally superior to all atheists, when I know for a fact that they aren't. I am perfectly happy to learn what I can from any group. Therefore I'm wary of making such judgements about Muslims. My religion is between God and myself, and the Muslim may, if (and this is a big if) he is following a false religion put about by Satan, have to answer to God for that. But he won't answer to me.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
A further example of the difference between the God of Islam and the God of the Old Testament has emerged recently

Bollocks. God is God. Christians, Muslims, Jews, others may have different ideas about God, and at least some of those ideas must be false, but that doesn't create a different God it creates a new idea of God.

The language yuo use implies that we create God.

For what its worth, your basis of argument is rubbish anyway, because the government of Israel have killed more Palestinians in the last few years than the Palestinians have killed Jews, as did their supposedly Christian allies in South Lebanon. Including killing children. And that's just direct killings, ignoring the tens of thousands who have been impoversished, become ill, or even died, because they have been denied access to their own land, to fresh water, to hospitals, to the means of working for a living. That's not targeted terrorism, it is blatantly untargeted terrorism, directed at anyone living in a besieged town or village, whoever they are.

Buit that's an even deader horse.

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Orb

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The language yuo use implies that we create God.

You mean we don't? I thought that was the whole point of theology... [Devil]

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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed

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Callan
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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

quote:
It's a far comment to argue that perhaps Mohammed's visions were not the result of a spiritual encounter but psychosomatic; quite where that leaves their authority is however less clear - that his material still clearly contradicts the bible in vast swathes still remains clear, though it does reduce the light cast on the original issue of this thread.
Well for a Catholic Christian it's simple. The Church does not recognise the authority of the Quran, it recognises the authority of Holy Scripture. Whether Mohammed's visions came from an Angel, a Demon or his psyche doesn't alter that. If I believed that the Quranic world view made more sense than the Christian world view I wouldn't be a Christian, Catholic or otherwise. But it isn't necessary to postulate direct demonic inspiration to disagree with the Quran, any more than I imagine a devout Muslim would argue that St John the Divine was getting his visions from Satan in order to obscure the teachings of the Prophet Jesus.

quote:
What however I am far less happy with is the suggestion that Mohammed didn't get the Koran all at once - that in effect he lied about it's origin. It is mainstream to make the same allegation about the book of Revelation - that John wrote it over an extended period, and not as a result of a single vision, and I'm not a fan of that view either. However with the Koran there is the fact that the only miracle which Mohammed makes claim to is his reception of the book, and so we are placing him in the position of being a total charlatan. I guess I prefer simple solutions and trusting people to say what they mean, and either accept the whole package or nothing....
Did Mohammed allege he got it in one go? Alfred Guillame (a conservative source, sympathetic to Islam) suggests that his visions came and went and were written down as they occurred. The definitive text of the Quran was not established until the reign of the Caliph Uthman and alternative texts were extant in Muslim communities until the end of the first Millenium. To be a Muslim it is only necessary, I think, to believe that the Arabic text of the Quran to reflect exactly the text of the Quran as it exists in heaven. Whatever fundamentalists allege, most Muslims accept the role of the Umma in shaping both the Quran and Islamic doctrine with, of course, the important caveat that they would make claims for the Quran which, obviously, neither of us could accept. Some scholars suggest that not all the revelations in the Quran derive from Mohammed. Obviously Muslims would find this argument unacceptable and not being an Arabic scholar I am not qualified to comment, but it is a hypothesis worthy of examination before one resorts to a thesis of demonic inspiration.

quote:
Perhaps we can agree that 'the inspiration of the Koran is not the God who inspired the Old and New Testaments'? This covers both the position that it was given by another spiritual entity or that it was created by Mohammed.
That's close, although I think we are working with radically different models of inspiration. I'd guess that you think, say, that when St Paul wrote to Galatia (in a blistering bad temper) the Holy Spirit inspired his words. I'd say that the Christian community has, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, recognised his words as being, in some sense the word of God. I'd say that St Paul, in advocating the Gospel of Grace was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but not that God literally told him that he should suggest the Judaizers should castrate themselves. Following Barth, I want some kind of model of scripture which suggests that the Holy Spirit is present when scripture is read as well as when it was written.

Martin Luther argued that the authority of a Biblical passage was based on the question: "Does it preach Christ?". In that sense the Church does not, and cannot, accept the authority of the Quran. But that does not oblige us to postulate satanic inspiration or to suggest that Mohammed must have been a charlatan or to deny that Mohammed was, like us, a worshipper of the God of Abraham nor need it prevent us from being open to whatever truth may be found in his teachings or in the subsequent teachings of Islam.

[ 01. September 2003, 10:46: Message edited by: Professor Yaffle ]

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Robert Armin

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IIRC after his first vision Mohammed (PBUH) had a long wait until he was granted another one, which wait was a testing of his faith. I'd never come across the view that he got the whole lot in one fell swoop.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
Did Mohammed allege he got it in one go?

Absolutely not! He claimed to have recieved messages at various odd times over about 20 years. At first he didn't even know that they were messages from God - he wasn't convinced of that till later. The revelations are supposed to have come in bits and pieces, some as short as a few words, some almost small books in themselves.

quote:

Alfred Guillame (a conservative source, sympathetic to Islam) suggests that his visions came and went and were written down as they occurred. The definitive text of the Quran was not established until the reign of the Caliph Uthman and alternative texts were extant in Muslim communities until the end of the first Millenium.

The traditional Muslim view is that Muhammad received the text of the Quran from the angel Gabriel in chunks at various times, and then repeated it to his followers, some of whom learned it off by heart. These "Reciters" accompanied the Arab armies during the wars of conquest after the prophet's death. As they died or were killed in battle, people began to write down the words to preserve them. Later, in the reign of 'Uthman, someone (whose name I've forgotten but had been Muhammad's secretary in Madina - Zaid?) is supposed to have constructed a definitive version from these others and from notes he had taken earlier, and interviews with the Reciters. Much later than that the false versions were suppressed.

So the traditional Muslim view has maybe 30 years of oral revelations, then another 30 of reciting before the definitive version was written down, not by Muhammad himself but by Zaid (or whatever his name was) then another 30 or so before the others were suppressed.

Of course non-Muslim scholars often have the whole process taking much longer.


quote:

To be a Muslim it is only necessary, I think, to believe that the Arabic text of the Quran to reflect exactly the text of the Quran as it exists in heaven.

Not even that - you just have to believe and declare that there is no God but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God - knowledge of the Quran is thought desirable, but not neccessary.

quote:

But that does not oblige us to postulate satanic inspiration or to suggest that Mohammed must have been a charlatan or to deny that Mohammed was, like us, a worshipper of the God of Abraham nor need it prevent us from being open to whatever truth may be found in his teachings or in the subsequent teachings of Islam.

Of course. Frankly the "early" Suras (i.e. the ones that tend to be declamations of the power and uniqueness of God rsther than detailed legislation about the new Muslim community) make at least as much sense as a lot of Christian mysticism. As a Christian I get on much better with lots of the Quran than with, say, Gnostic Christian apocrypha, or some of the more OTT apocalyptic writings of some modern Christian sects.

[ 01. September 2003, 11:27: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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perceval
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quote:

Compare

Sura 24 v2 - the whore and the whore monger - scourge each of them with 100 stripes

with

Deuteronomy 25 v 3
'Forty stripes may be given him, but not more lest if the one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother should be degraded in your sight'

There is a concern for the individual's dignity - even of a criminal - that is wholly lacking in the Koran
[/QB]

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

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Always look on the bright side of life.
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Golden Key
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(licensed crusading)

Chill out, people!

It's all ONE.

No worries.

(passes around Ghirardelli chocolate and Ben & Jerry's ice cream)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
ej
Shipmate
# 2259

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(more crusading)

No, dear golden key. As any good alt.w*er knows, it's all THREE.

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For my next trick I shall turn this water into funk...
...a little breathing-space...

Posts: 426 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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(crusading)

...One, Three, Nine Billion, 42...

It's all good.

(mumble freakin' bean-counters and accountants. Harsh my mellow, will you? See what kind of karma *that* gets you!)

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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just bumping this up for the sake of the person (named, i think, "person") who started a similar thread in purgatory.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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