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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW: Choirs of Men and Boys
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Yes, a few of us remain engaged in this rich and significant tradition of church music. Here in the States, between 25 and 30 such ensembles survive. My group consists of five basses, three tenors, three countertenors, and ten trebles from an Episcopalian Parish of roughly 225 families. It's a labor of love -- recruitment is a constant activity -- but when the lads are at their best it's a glorious sight and sound to behold, chorally speaking. We're scheduled to travel to and sing in New York City in mid-June of this year.
Any other Shipmates historically or presently involved/affiliated/with supporters/of M&B groups in your area, or have M&B anecdotes to share?
[ 31. March 2004, 18:40: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Hostly Canterbury Cap flourish
I am sure MW will be a fertile pasture for this thread so I'm sending you there.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think there is a place for Men and Boy only choirs, but also Girls and mixed choirs (or else how could I sing?)
But a wonderful experience at the weekend was hearing the combined choirs of Exeter (B&M) and Gloucester (B&M) singing in Exeter Cathedral - see wiblog - you just can't beat it!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
Men and boys choirs are principally of interest to the sort of middle-aged men who live with their mothers and collect unusual art literature. There is no musical justification for them as adult sopranos make a much better sound than boy trebles, read music better and don't pick their noses or fart during services. All the Cathedral choirs have been vastly outclassed by the undergraduate choirs of the Oxford and Cambridge colleges these days, and it is these, consequently, who get to make most recordings. Most Cathedrals Chapters could save themselves money and improve the quality of their musical output by employing soprano lay clerks (or clerkesses) instead of paying out huge scholarships to boy choristers.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Do you think you would get men singing if they had not first sung as boys? Most if not all the men in my church choir first sang as trebles.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Thank you, Fiddleback. At the risk of sounding Hellish, my guess is that you are still smarting from many, many failed auditions as a young boy and are yet to overcome having been denied an opportunity to sing as a treble in a cathedral-style choir of M&B. That said, I'll now re-read your post and respond a little more kindly.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
I'm with Chorister (and I'll try to ignore Fiddleback's close to hellish comments). Boy's choirs do have a distinctive sound, one which I have long preferred to other choirs. But that's my ears. As Chorister points out, it's good to have a variety of choirs.
My favorite rendition of Handel's Messiah is by the King's Choir, btw.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Chorister:
You'll be glad to know that my Parish also supports a Children's Choir (20-22 girls and boys), Women's Choir (18 members, and arguably the best of our ensembles), a Parish Choir (16 mixed adults), and Senior Choir (a retiree-voiced group). As there is a plethora of them, I will be starting a Jr. High School Girls' Ensemble this Autumn.
I'd also say you're right on the money re: boys who sing becoming men who sing. That argument, IMO, is extremely strong.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Do you think you would get men singing if they had not first sung as boys? Most if not all the men in my church choir first sang as trebles.
That is a great big myth invented by the raincoat brigade to maintain the object of their fantasies. In the last Cathedral choir I was involved with, ony two of the men had been boy choristers. And where do the very competent adult females in so many choirs come from. Have they all had gender re-assignments since theor childhood?
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Here you go Fiddleback, one point at a time:
quote:
Men and boys choirs are principally of interest to the sort of middle-aged men who live with their mothers and collect unusual art literature.
Beyond the myopia and tone of this broad and unfortunate generalization, I'll simply tell you that I'm in my early 30's and live 300 miles from my parents. At present I do not collect. Beyond work and church I'm too busy with my toddler daughter.
quote:
There is no musical justification for them as adult sopranos make a much better sound than boy trebles,
Well-versed are you in the topic of vocal timbres? "Better" is the lip of a slippery slope. I take it you prefer the sound of adult women. Alrighty then.
quote:
read music better
Well, RSCM-affiliated choirs (over here) usually follow the Voice For Life series of training materials and teach boys to be musically literate. I can confidently stack my lead boy up against any other female soprano in my parish and he will hold his own.
quote:
and don't pick their noses or fart during services.
You're right -- women have never done these. Honestly FB, what kind of program are you familiar with? Boys are boys now, aren't they? Those are more rehearsal issues that service concerns.
quote:
All the Cathedral choirs have been vastly outclassed by the undergraduate choirs of the Oxford and Cambridge colleges these days, and it is these, consequently, who get to make most recordings.
They don't , BTW, feature adult sopranos who try to sound like boy trebles, do they? I see, recording opportunities = success. Have you no musical criteria?
quote:
Most Cathedrals Chapters could save themselves money and improve the quality of their musical output by employing soprano lay clerks (or clerkesses) instead of paying out huge scholarships to boy choristers.
You may be right re: $$, but then you'd completely destroy a virtually ancient Anglican tradition as well as deny a wonderful opportunity and exceptional education to many boys and their families. Not to mention the ministerial aspects worth considering.
Your pet peeve is my lap dog. Sorry to have touched a nerve.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
<<snip>>
Your pet peeve is my lap dog. Sorry to have touched a nerve.
I wasn't thinking you were the one who needed to apologize. You didn't insult a large number of people with crass generalizations which are unproven and which seemed like they were intended to offend.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
One could say that an advantage of boy trebles is that puberty puts them out to pasture, unlike some sopranos who don't know when to quit. Not that I really have an opinion one way or the other, as long as the tenor line is good.
Seriously, I love the men and boys choir at Christ Church Cathedral, Lexington, KY. I've never seen them pick their noses in public. Maybe I wasn't paying close attention.
("The Riv", although I can't claim to be a mind-reader, it's just remotely possible that Fiddleback is jerking your chain.)
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Well sharkshooter, an apology can't hurt. The thread is obviously a point of contention for some. I can only say that I appreciate the tradition of M&B choirs and am glad to direct one. I still hope to be regaled with other shipmates' experiences. C'mon UK!
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
("The Riv", although I can't claim to be a mind-reader, it's just remotely possible that Fiddleback is jerking your chain.)
That's entirely possible, Sine, and, in fact, my hope. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
The good father has been rather frisky since his recent facelift.
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Septimus
Shipmate
# 500
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Posted
I must say, it's rather refreshing to return from a lengthy sojurn ashore to find that some of the familiar old ruddy faces are still here and still inciting the right level of emotion from unwary deckwalkers.
I know what you mean Rev. Back. My mother always helps me adjust my anorak before I toddle off to choir. As the only man (or boy) to show up on a regular basis it behoves me to put on a show for the sopranos.
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"The man of 'perfect manners' is he who is calmly courteous in all circumstances, as attentive outwardly to the plain and the elderly as he is to the young and the pretty."
Mrs. Humphrey, Manners for Men
Posts: 442 | From: England's Garden Gnome | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Good grief. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Geneva Gown ON
Making rather overt statements about the moral character of those interested in Men/Boy choruses is definitely NOT acceptable in MW. And those doing so definitely know better. This thread definitely deserves better than that.
If this behavior cointinues here, or any similar juvenile behavior spreads to other threads in MW, it will be jumped on VERY quickly and VERY hard.
Geneva Gown OFF
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
What a curious thread. We have a mesospherically high Anglo-Catholic priest from England attacking boy choirs and a fundamentalist Protestant from Texas defending them.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
One of the big problems with mixed adult choirs is that there are not enough well-trained females. This is especially so in the roman tradition where the soprano line can verge on the operatic (which was admired in previous days). The alto line often consisted of rejects from the sopranos (in an age where "can't sing" was equivalent to"no vibrato and can't manage above F#).
Here in Oz the men and boys' choirs are not in the league of the British ones mainly because the kids are not packed off to boarding-school at 7, nor are they routinely turfed out at puberty. I would say that the best choirs I have ever heard here in Oz are mixed and all bar one are Anglican i.e. Christ Church St Laurence and St James King St here in Sydney, St Peter's Eastern Hill, Trinity College and Ormond College (Uniting Church ) in Melbourne. Mind you, these are all rigorously auditioned, and the singers are generally young (i.e. under 30).
The Paddington Cacophonic Society (aka the choir of St Francis of Assisi)is pretty good as parish choirs go (a lot of non-auditioned starters but we have picked up more and more really able singers as time has gone on. Mind you, a robed Roman parish choir is often compared to a dog walking on its hind legs-the marvel is that it is done at all!
cheers all,
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
referring, I believe, to the spectre of a woman preaching, non?
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
Righty ho, Mr The Riv. The ONLY reason for the ancient and venerable tradition which you seek to uphold is that for so many years women were not allowed to sully the chancels of our churches with their presence. Having small boys sing the top line was the next best thing. It is rather like the old Public School productions of Gilbert & Sullivan where smaller boys were dressed and made up to take the women's parts. I am not opposed to children being in choirs - and in fact it is something I am very much trying to encourage here - but I am opposed to maintaining an ignominious tradition which is basically misogynistic.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I had a larf at Fiddleback's early post, but I don't agree with all of it by any means.
Cathedrals which are serious in proving how un-misogynistic they are can set up girl's choirs or provide a mixed choir alongside the all-male set-up, which share in the task of providing music for worship. And they can also ensure that musically talented females have the same rebate/scholarship ops as the fellas.
Though, as an example that it can be done with girls, imo Lincoln has an excellent choir of girls - do they sometimes sing with the boys? - with a beautiful top-line sound, every bit as good as most all-male cathedral treble groups. I don't know how widespread this is.
I've heard one or two parish or cathedral mixed choirs (women and men) which have also sounded extremely good; no hint of the Victorian oratorio style. More a chamber choir effect, with a small number of well-trained, not over the top voices. Perhaps just as difficult to recruit for as a typical cathedral choir?
However, I like the sound of a good M&B choir. It does have a distinctive sound which it would be a shame to lose from the spectrum of choral colour. Just as it would be a shame to lose men's choirs and women's choirs, and mixed-sex choirs.
I think the up-the-road parish choir is treading dodgy ground if it discriminates against women, because it can't easily plead the special case of Cathedral tradition, in my opinion. And the parish choir is a good place for both boys and girls to begin their early singing worship 'careers', perhaps prior to cathedral school.
So long as the boys don't 'hoot', and the lay clerks manage to get out of the pub on time for divine service, this is one tradition that is worth keeping. I want my cake and eat it. Now that's perfectly reasonable, isn't it? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Righty ho, Mr The Riv. The ONLY reason for the ancient and venerable tradition which you seek to uphold is that for so many years women were not allowed to sully the chancels of our churches with their presence. Having small boys sing the top line was the next best thing. It is rather like the old Public School productions of Gilbert & Sullivan where smaller boys were dressed and made up to take the women's parts. I am not opposed to children being in choirs - and in fact it is something I am very much trying to encourage here - but I am opposed to maintaining an ignominious tradition which is basically misogynistic.
This is pretty much right. In my view, both girls and boys should be encouraged to sing good church music and to develop into adult church musicians. The boys should I think continue to have the opportunity to sing in men and boy choirs or in mixed choirs. There should also be more ensembles for girls - girls only or mixed.
One of the best mixed ensembles around in Sydney is the Jacobeans (the former choir of St James, King Street, after a bust-up some years back with a cloth eared vicar). They have an impressive treble line-up of boys and girls, together with adult sopranos. Perfectly straight and sweet-toned with nary a wobble. On the other hand the main choir at St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney is men and boys.
The problem with Catholic choirs here, as it is elsewhere in the world is the damage that was done in the 1970's and 80's by misinterpretation of the relevant bits of Vatican II. A lot of rankly bad music was written then in the name of the vernacular and of congregational participation.
Congregational participation does not mean cutting out all the plainchant and Palestrina. There is no reason why the congregation can't join in the plainchant for example(simple or more complex dependening on ability), as they do with the hymns. As for the rest, it is part of the great inheritance of the church and should be much more widely heard and performed.
Incidentally when we did G&S at school, it was the few girl altos who wound up singing the male parts.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Degs, I have a huge problem with the English vice of packing the kiddies off to boarding-school at a young age and keeping the dogs at home...I didn't realise what a custom it was until my own parents were posted to Ghana 30-odd years back and the 3 of us went to boarding-school at ages 14, 12 and 10. On our (annual) re-union with the parents at Christmas (the long holidays in the Antipodes) we met any number of young Brits who had been boarding since age 7, poor little blighters. I suspect that the custom of boarding boy choristers dates from mediaeval times when prospective monks were picked up at an early age and every monastic foundation had its Master of the children.
As for the girls' choirs in the UK, yes, they are often excellent but it is my impression that they are very much the poor relations in that they get to sing with the men (and on their own) on the boys' days off, but never with them. After all, they aren't going to grow up into gorgeous lay-clerks, are they?
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Slightly outside England, but the Dublin Cathedral choir school has girls only. I was quite stunned to discover this, then I found out that the Director of Music is an old friend who lived through women being badly treated in the cathedral choir we both belonged to.
For myself I far prefer the European boys choir sound to the English.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Well, I'm flummoxed, which will bring a smile to Septimus' face. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) This thread was/is an attempt at sharing an extremely small, even odd facet of Christian Church Music. Like some, even few, I really enjoy the unique sound that M&B choirs offer and am glad to see them scratching out an existance as a completely counter-cultural phenomenon. I'd appreciate it if those who share this view would continue to add their experiences and stories to mine. That's the request. Here's to hoping.
Since it came up, I addressed the issue of inclusion/fairness to females in as much that I elaborated on the other ensembles my Parish supports. I'm all for girl choristers, but reject the premise that simply because a M&B choir exists discrimination must also. Female choristers -- girls, to the point of fact, occupy choir stalls at every (church/choral) level, and have been particularly well-received in many of England's/Europe's most notable cathedrals, not the least of which is Notre Dame. Pun intended.
Fiddleback: you seem to have the better part of your bow well beyond your anal sphyncter re: this issue. FYI, Neil (starbelly) is taking soon-to-be-revived Rant of the Month topics @ the Styx. Why not apply your jaded spittle to that task? If you want to hash out the merits and/or faults of the M&B tradition in Purgatory, great; see you there. Or, just give over to yourself and go whine in Hell. But if you're going to curse any aspect of Christian worship experience that had (particularly by today's standards) a questionable origin, you ain't gonna be left with much.
Duo, I'm confused. You quoted a large part of Fiddleback's post decrying M&B choirs, but then contradicted it immediately after saying he was pretty much right.
Thanks so far to Chorister, MarkThePunk, Sine Nomine, and Anselmina for ringing in re: M&B choirs.
Multipara, you did read the OP? Sounds like your having a worthy but mostly another conversation. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I love the M&B tradition: the choirs themselves and their specific heritage and sound. I am not a misogynist, and none of the men I know who share my responsibilities are either. Again, I apologize if the OP touched a nerve, but at this point and considering the veteran status enjoyed by all who've posted on this thread, I neither appreciate nor feel the need to tolerate disparaging remarks that have or may yet come.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
For myself I far prefer the European boys choir sound to the English.
Care to describe what you're talking about?
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
The German and Norwegian children's and boys choirs have a much richer and fruitier sound than English choirs generally do. Not so "pure."
Which isn't to say I don't like the English sound - I just prefer the other. I went to Holy Communion at King's College when I was staying in Cambridge a couple of years ago and loved what I heard.
But the early Leonhardt recordings of the Bach cantatas had boy soloists who just blew me away they were so beautiful.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Arabella, if you are doing another UK choir crawl, go check out the men and boys of Westminster Cathedral. I last heard them in 1999, just before James O'Donnell went to the Abbey as director, and the sound was wonderful-and very un-English. I am told that the "Continental" tradition was established there by the first director, Richard Terry, and has continued on. They also sing a lot of the Spanish repertoire which was brilliant to hear.
cheers,
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
I began my life as an Anglican singing Merbecke and Oxford Easy Anthems and whatever John Rutter did recently, in a boys' choir. When my globes inevitably decreased their altitude, I continued as a squeaky tenor, which I still do today, though not in the original choir.
Just for the record, that boys choir is the single worst choir on the face of God's green earth. if you're ever in Sydney, go to St Paul's Bankstown as penance!
I must say, though, even though I am a non-mysogynistic forward thinking liturgical experimenter, I am a bit partial to a M&B choir like King's college Cambridge. We in Sydney may very soon lose one of our better ones if the Puritanical Dean gets his way....
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think we are lucky these days that there is so much opportunity and variety in the types of choirs available. Even in so-called 'crossover' music the choral tradition is acceptable (eg. angel voices - the St. Philip's Boys Choir). But there is still a problem in all but the most famous and professional choirs - that of finding enough men to sing. This is apparent not only in church music but in choral societies all over the country. Schools and churches must somehow get boys to see that singing can be fun; men who never enjoyed singing as children are unlikely to suddenly motivate themselves to learn tenor or bass - although I wish they would!
Whether the best way to encourage this is through the traditional route of Men and Boys' choirs or through mixed choirs is open to debate. (Mixed choirs are a great way of meeting the opposite sex - I know, I married one of them!)
There is a huge comprehensive school near me, with a couple of thousand teenagers. Their choir has almost all girls - about 3 boys sing. What a waste of voices! Perhaps it is more acceptable to sing if you are a boy at public (independent) school, but it would be a shame if it is a class thing.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
Duo, I'm confused. You quoted a large part of Fiddleback's post decrying M&B choirs, but then contradicted it immediately after saying he was pretty much right.
Not sure I can see where you're coming from, Riv. Fiddleback made the entirely correct point that M&B choirs come from the bad old days, when women and girls were not countenanced on the sanctuary or allowed to have anything else to do with the Liturgy, including acting as altar servers, Eucharistic ministers or lectors. Those were the bad old misogynistic days. (Inroads have been made - although we don't have either women priests or deacons in the Catholic Church.) I agreed with Fiddleback's point on the origin of M&B choirs - maybe I could have been clearer.
My main point was that one can continue the M&B tradition while giving equal time and space to mixed choirs or girls/women ensembles. I'm for equal access. Frankly, the state of music in most Catholic parishes is in such a state of disuetude that all groups should be encouraged. Outside of a Cathdral, this is most likely to mean a mixed choir or an all female choir. Even within the Cathedral tradition they should be given a fair and equal go.
The trouble with championing the tradition of M&B choirs on the basis of their sound is that it can encourage the sort of thought process that, consciously or not, regards mixed choirs or all female choirs as a lesser order of being, because they have a different sound. There is a certain Cathedral down the road from us where the mixed choir and mixed Gregorian schola have very much played second fiddle to the M&B choir in terms of singing in the "big" liturgies.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There is an argument that the sound is created by the Choral Director, rather than being a particularly 'boy' thing. This is borne out by what APW says about the European boys sounding different. You could never confuse the Vienna Boys' Choir with Kings', for example. The Catholic boys' schools eg. Downham also have a very different sound.
Malcolm Archer (Wells) would argue that he can make girls sound the same as boys. He gave a talk which I attended and to illustrate it he played a recording of the girls of Wells Cathedral singing and then the boys singing. He challenged us to tell which was which. I got it right, but several people in the room didn't - many of whom were of the 'boys are best' brigade. I think it gave us all food for thought.
The choir I hear most often is Exeter. And you can definitely tell the difference in sound between B and G there. Mind you, they are trained by two different people.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
It seems to very much depend on where you are. I heard Evensong on BBC3 from Worcester Cathedral a few weeks ago, and they had sung the introit before the officiant said which choir it was, and I was amazed that it was the girls', since it sounded very like the boys' (or to be specific, it sounded like A boys' choir, since I don't know what THE boys' choir at Worcester sounds like.).
The problem seems two-fold: directors of girls' choirs (in my experience) are very keen on them being good singers, but are equally keen on them sounding like boys, i.e. a very pure and 'white' sound (not racially white, but undiluted white).
And, most of these directors have little experience with how a girl's voice actually works, being different from a boy's voice. Many cathedral girls' choirs kick the girls out at 14 - why? Because if they were boys that's when their voices would break.
But in fact, a girl's voice changes (and it does, even if it's less noticeable in some girls) at puberty, which tends to be around 11 or 12.
St David's Cathedral has only had a girls' top line since the late 70's (when the boys choir was struck down by flu the day before a BBC evensong!) and the girls stay till they're 18. They have just started a boys' choir too - mostly younger brothers!
The other thing to consider is that for the most part, boys don't want to sing with girls. At that age, they prefer a male-only environment. Having girls around can confirm a sneaking suspicion that like knitting and playing with barbies, singing is for girls. (said with a sneer, as only an 11-year old can!)
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Riv, going back and re-reading your OP more carefully, I see you have three counter-tenors. How neat. I think we all got sidetracked by the boys (don't say it, Degs!). Sounds like a sort of a mini version of Chanticleer (not that they have trebles.).
It's amazing, and I'm envious, that you can support five choirs out of 225 families. Is there anybody left in the congregation? What makes your parish so musical?
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I'm with Degs on this one re: purity over fruity every time. I know it's only a personal thing, but hearing the occasional European boys' choir on TV reminds me of the 'hooting' I was complaining about. More like an owls' convention, than angelic be-ruffled pre-teens!
Elgar, Finzi, Vaughan-Williams, and Britten can only be effectively sung by that particular brand of English sound, imo. A sound that can be replicated by non-English people, of course. How generous of me to say so - I know
Besides isn't 'fruity' what buxom mezzo-contraltos do eg in the style of, 'He was despised...' Handel?
The fruitiest I am prepared to go is the young Aled Jones.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
They don't , BTW, feature adult sopranos who try to sound like boy trebles
Oh yeah? What of those of us who by default have pure voices? What? Just because we're girls we are de facto expected to have huge operatic vibratos, and therefore be faking a "boy-like" sound?
What a load of old tosh. I couldn't produce a wobble if I tried. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
One of the best mixed ensembles around in Sydney is the Jacobeans (the former choir of St James, King Street, after a bust-up some years back with a cloth eared vicar). They have an impressive treble line-up of boys and girls, together with adult sopranos. Perfectly straight and sweet-toned with nary a wobble.
My dear Duo, I beg to differ. They sang at my parish last Sunday (I was subdeacon) - Byrd 4 part. It was perfectly appalling. Especially considering my choir (our parish choir) sang it the previous week. The entries were uneven and weak, the tone was all over the place, the pace was far too slow. They may have been good once, but several people have commented that their quality has declined. Yes they still draw the boys and some girls, but there's alot of dead wood there...
The Jacobeans' decline may have something to do with the fact that Walter Sutcliffe doesn't appear to be very well; when they sing at St M's he usually plays, but he was extremely reluctant to climb the stairs on Sunday morning. He looked very pale and pasty.
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The concept of misogyny in relation to girls and cathedral choirs, I think, holds true. Not least in that it means girls do not receive the same quality of musical training, the same standard, the same opportunities. May the girls choirs in cathedrals flourish! Music in general will be the richer for it.
quote:
This thread was/is an attempt at sharing an extremely small, even odd facet of Christian Church Music.
Yes well. By all means share your enthusiasm, but be ready for sounds of disagreement.
As for this statement:
quote:
quote:
All the Cathedral choirs have been vastly outclassed by the undergraduate choirs of the Oxford and Cambridge colleges these days, and it is these, consequently, who get to make most recordings.
They don't , BTW, feature adult sopranos who try to sound like boy trebles, do they? I see, recording opportunities = success. Have you no musical criteria?
I find this highly objectionable. What a complete write-off of adult sopranos. "Oh, they only manage to do it because of the recording opportunities." What a load of tosh. Give us a bit of credit will you? Women study music too, you know (hello! yes, this is the 21st Century and yes, women can be more talented than men in different areas). Why shouldn't they also be given the opportunities men/boys are given?
Why are there no tertiary/postgrad scholarships available for women to sing in cathedral/college choirs? Why must it be only the men who have this opportunity?
Having said this, I take more issue with your expression, Riv, than with your statement of ardour for M&B choirs. Seeing as I happen to like the sound myself.
However, I would far rather listen to The Sixteen, or the Tallis Scholars, than to a crappily led, crappily trained, bad sounding, off-key M&B choir.
I think Chorister has a point. It very much depends on the director/choir trainer, both as to the sound of the group, and as to how they interact musically and socially.
Jugular is right in that the Choir at St Andrews is definitely under threat (whether now, or in 5-10 years time). However, it is a bit of an old nag; Michael Deasey (for whom I have a great deal of respect) appears to have lost spirit and given up the fight somewhat under the conditions, and he lacks energy in pulling the group together. The boys have consistently sounded ratty for the past 3 years. Whether that's because of difficulties of recruitment/losing a whole lot at one time/whatever, or not, I am not sure. But it is not a sound I would travel to hear...
And, I think there are a lot of choirs that have more spirit than Kings College Cambridge, for all their being exulted above all other choirs in the world. KCC seems to be a bit tired, at least from recent recordings I have - they may be very different live...
Just sharing my opinions here... Anyone else want their choir criticised?
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
Forgive double post, but plainsong is something else much better with male voices, I think.
Have a listen to the link above!!!
Degs, WOMEN religious have also been singing chant since at least, oh, the 13th Century... Witness Hildegarde of Bingen.
I dare say it very much depends on how the director interprets the chant, and how well trained the choir is in singing it.
My opinion is that chant sounds best when chanted either by men or women; the homogenity of sound is what matters...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
LOL A triple post. No I am *not* half worked up about this topic!
And having said all the stuff I have said above:
*whispers* I confess to having a secret fetish for recordings of Kings done in the 1960s, wobbles and all... Not so much because of the sound they made, as from the historical point of view, and I probably enjoy it because of associations I have with it.../*whispers*
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Panis Angelicus
Shipmate
# 3795
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Posted
J.E. Millard wrote a now-obscure but mildly interesting defense of what he called the "office" of boy-choristers in 1847:
Historical Notices of the Office of Choristers. Masters, 1848.
Among his points is the proposition that boychoirs produce a large number of vocations to the priesthood of the Church. True today?
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"Was there any difficulty in the Bishop's putting his hand in your bosom, arising from the fashion of your dress?"--Trial of Bishop Onderdonk of New York, 1844, p. 62.
Posts: 406 | From: New York City | Registered: Dec 2002
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