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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW: Choirs of Men and Boys
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Elgar, Finzi, Vaughan-Williams, and Britten can only be effectively sung by that particular brand of English sound...
and Palestrina, Victoria, and Allegri can only authentically be sung by castrati, a sound bearing no relation to that produced by either Tallis Scholars or Willcocks/Kings.
Is that a third way that we might fruitfully (as it were) pursue?
Posts: 945 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
quote:
*whispers* I confess to having a secret fetish for recordings of Kings done in the 1960s, wobbles and all... Not so much because of the sound they made, as from the historical point of view, and I probably enjoy it because of associations I have with it.../*whispers*
I think they were at their best in David Willcocks day!
Not sure about that, because I have some very good Cleobury recordings (although I refuse to get the Rachmaninoff Vespers - that ain't meant to be sung by boys, however much they butch it up!). The 60's Kings sound will always be very special though, not least because of the Roy Goodman recording of the Miserere, which people really noticed. It's still the best English language recording though, even if that's not quite the Done Thing these days.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Elgar, Finzi, Vaughan-Williams, and Britten can only be effectively sung by that particular brand of English sound, imo. A sound that can be replicated by non-English people, of course. How generous of me to say so - I know ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Absolutely right, IMNSHO. That's the sound they were written for. Having said that, though, Britten wrote a lot of music for Westminster Cathedral, because he liked the 'edginess' of their sound that Anglican choirs generally didn't have in the 40's and 50's.
Interesting to see what will happen now that Neary and O'Donnell have switched jobs, though!
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
What a difference a day makes. Let's see...
ABL, the 'Continental' distinction you make is an interesting one and one I've spent some time researching. There are a number of contributing factors, one important one being a matter of what might simply be called relative strength/presence or weakness/absence of different overtones in relation to the fundamental, or base resonance of each note sung. I won't belabor it beyond that: Lord knows that M&B choirs are quirky enough w/out some extraneous musical physics lesson attached. To this end, however, Chorister is absolutely right to imply that much credit/blame for a choir's corporate timber may be laid at the choirmaster's/director's feet. "English" and "Continental" treble sounds are styles of tone production and performance that may be taught and learned. Chorister is also in tune with me re: boys singing/men singing. Perhaps more on this in another thread.
Duo, I understand. Thank you. Equal access, time, acknowledgement, opportunity for girls/women by all means. Your point:
quote:
The trouble with championing the tradition of M&B choirs on the basis of their sound is that it can encourage the sort of thought process that, consciously or not, regards mixed choirs or all female choirs as a lesser order of being, because they have a different sound.
troubles me slightly. IMO a sonic distinction ought to be 'championed' on both ends of the gender scale. I'd much rather discern and celebrate the unique qualities of both -- even all -- types of choirs. To a degree, this goes to Chorister's issue of attracting boys into this tradition. I think your concern is valid, but more one of posture and presentation that I, for one, am careful to handle tactfully. Degs, I think the case of describing a boy treble's sound as having 'purity' is an example of what Duo is describing. (We all probably know exactly what you mean when you said that.) There are so many aspects of a sound, though, and so many undeniable differneces between men and women, boys and girls, etc. I'm for illuminating and celebrating those, however, not detracting from all until we have a rather homogeneous, but empty understanding, musically speaking, of course.
Panda, many elements of your post with which I agree, particularly: quote:
The problem seems two-fold: directors of girls' choirs (in my experience) are very keen on them being good singers, but are equally keen on them sounding like boys, i.e. a very pure and 'white' sound (not racially white, but undiluted white).
Yes. I alluded to this, perhaps too snydely, for which Nunc has taken me to task. More on that in a moment.
quote:
And, most of these directors have little experience with how a girl's voice actually works, being different from a boy's voice.
Many directors don't know, I mean really know how the human voice works. Strange, sad, but true. quote:
Many cathedral girls' choirs kick the girls out at 14 - why? Because if they were boys that's when their voices would break.
This is what I mean: good intentions (?) gone bad.
quote:
The other thing to consider is that for the most part, boys don't want to sing with girls. At that age, they prefer a male-only environment. Having girls around can confirm a sneaking suspicion that like knitting and playing with barbies, singing is for girls. (said with a sneer, as only an 11-year old can!)
Right. Again, sad but true, and probably the most obvious and frustrating argument to support Chorister's boys-who-sing --> men-who-sing thing.
OK Nunc, I'm buckling down. (not to be confused with diggin in or backpedaling)
quote:
Oh yeah? What of those of us who by default have pure voices? What? Just because we're girls we are de facto expected to have huge operatic vibratos, and therefore be faking a "boy-like" sound?
What a load of old tosh. I couldn't produce a wobble if I tried.
I say good for you if your voice is 'pure.' No qualms. No, but you can't disagree with the fact that some directors do instruct their women to sing a la boy trebles. It happens, often in an attempt to generate an "English cathedral" sound. It's somewhat of a broad, generalized style attempt. If you talk to enough choral directors -- I know it's true of many American directors -- I think you'd find it wasn't as much 'tosh' as you say. Vibrato -- not going down that road right now other than to say that I consider it natural and that the counters, tenors, and basses in my choir all regularly apply it, appropriately, IMO.
quote:
The concept of misogyny in relation to girls and cathedral choirs, I think, holds true.
I'm not claiming that is't not still out there -- misogyny -- and where it is I hope it dies quickly. Perhaps the M&B tradition was initiated under those circumstances, but there's no good reason for it to remain as such. Although, you evidently found my reference to women trying to sound like boy trebles misogynist. I understand and do apologize. Mindless of me. But I hadn't intended for that bit and the bit about recordings to be linked. You said that the undergrad choirs are sounding better than the college choirs of M&B. Likely so. I've just heard a lot of mixed collegiate ensembles (over here in the US) with sopranos singing with a tight, forced, edgy straight-tone. I married a conservatory-trained soprano (a whole other issue[!], but I hope you see my point) and am all for women in music. ADD scholarships for the women, though, please; don't take them away from deserving boys. Leveling the playing field via subtraction/detraction is a failing philpsophy. IMO.
quote:
Having said this, I take more issue with your expression, Riv, than with your statement of ardour for M&B choirs. Seeing as I happen to like the sound myself.
Issue well taken, and again, I apologize for offending. I'm glad we have a common appreciation -- choral music, and even M&B choirs.
quote:
I would far rather listen to The Sixteen, or the Tallis Scholars, than to a crappily led, crappily trained, bad sounding, off-key M&B choir.
Me too, and who wouldnt!
quote:
My opinion is that chant sounds best when chanted either by men or women; the homogenity of sound is what matters...
I agree, and my choirs and I call it (Gregorian chant) Vitamin C.
Now that it's taken me three and a half hours to write this (between classes) I eagerly return to the thread, and look forward to more.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Panis Angelicus:
J.E. Millard wrote a now-obscure but mildly interesting defense of what he called the "office" of boy-choristers in 1847:
Historical Notices of the Office of Choristers. Masters, 1848.
I'll have to wait until I get home to read this. Looking forward to it, though.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
I do resent the suggestion that women try to create a sound like that of boy trebles. Women singing Anglican church music simply try to sing it well, and are sensitive enough to recognise that this just does not call for a full bodied 'underwater' warble. Lots of women do warble, it is true, but they tend not to be in church choirs or to have any kind of musical competence whatsoever.
As someone correctly pointed out, women in the religious houses of Europe have been singing liturgical music for just as long as men have, and ALWAYS sing plainsong better than men. Don't mix voices in plainsong, I agree, but if it is one or the other, forget Solesmes and get the women to do it. Somehow they seem to be less shackled to foursquare rhythm than men.
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Panda, re the Westminster Abbey/Cathedral double-shuffle; When I listened to the Queen Mum's funeral music last year I had the impression that James O'Donnell had the Abbey boys sounding much more like the Cathedral choir I had heard back in 1999-and fruity does not describe that sound. It was forthright, clear and moved along beautifully. I haven't been back to hear what Martin Baker is soing at the Cathedral...maybe in a year or three.
cheers,
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
quote:
Among his points is the proposition that boychoirs produce a large number of vocations to the priesthood of the Church. True today?
Ooh! Ooh! Pick me, pick me!
But I'm the only one I know.... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
I like the sound made by all male choirs - if they are good. Unfortunately I think they have a very limited place in the Church - for all the reasons of exclusiveness that people have stated.
So, why not have a secular society of Male voice choirs and keep everyone happy. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
(From woman of a liturgical, musical bent who was not allowed to sing or serve in church until the age of 18 years - due to being the wrong sex ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ).
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That's not how we do it here.......
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
I'm always interested to read about how exclusive and misodynistic choirs of men and boys are. IN my diocese of 94 parishes, two of them have a choir of men and boys, and those two ALSO have mixed choirs.
So of 94 parishes in my diocese, women sing liturgically in ALL 94.
It doesn't seem to me that boy trebles are threatening to oust any women from singing in church around here.
The retention of far stranger and more esoteric liturgical oddities is regularly advocated on this board than the simple pleasure (in the, what?, 1% of places that still have them) of choirs of men and boys.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
The Riv on Nunc Dimittis: quote:
quote:
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I would far rather listen to The Sixteen, or the Tallis Scholars, than to a crappily led, crappily trained, bad sounding, off-key M&B choir.
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Me too, and who wouldnt!
I would much rather listen to neither. The Sixteen, the Tallis Scholars and Trinity, Cambridge, leave me completely cold. They sing all the notes beautifully in the right order with some nice phrasing, but to me they give absolutely no sense of the meaning of the music or the words, let alone any deeper meanings. Whenever I listen to one of their CDs I can't help thinking that if they went from Byrd's Ave Verum to Land of Hope & Glory they would sing them both exactly the same - passionless in both cases. Now the Monteverdi Choir is something different, but I still prefer to listen to B&M.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Pre-cambrian:
I was choosing from what was offered! I would still rather hear The Sixteen or TS than, er... crickets!
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
What's wrong with crickets? Do you also not appreciate the spring peepers? (Perhaps you don't have them in Texas, though.)
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
Just come back from Evenscream feeling vindicated in my pronouncements on plainsong. This morning the women in our choir sang the Missa de Angelis which was quite heavenly. This evening the men completely bugger*d up the plainsong responses. They just can't do it.
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Yesterday I crossed the Tiber and spent the morning at High Mass at Christ Church St Laurence, for a Laetare Sunday treat. The mixed choir (including some old ducks who are my contemporaries) sang Howells' Collegium Regale and Elgar's Ave Verum Corpus. The latter is not a favourite of mine but it was a knockout rendition of same and I was transported. Move over, King's!!
cheers,
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
Father Fiddleback talks a load of contradictory rubbish:
quote:
adult sopranos make a much better sound than boy trebles [and] read music better
Lots of women do warble it is true, but they tend not to be in church choirs or to have any kind of musical competence whatsoever.
I am not opposed to children being in choirs - and in fact it is something I am very much trying to encourage here.
the men completely bugger*d up the plainsong responses. They just can't do it.
What exactly is the composition of your ideal choir, Father? Girls only, presumably, as boys, women and men are all crap.
Exactly which undergraduate Oxbridge choirs have eclipsed the boys' and mens' choirs? Name three. Perhaps the cathedral choirs aren't making recording because they are too busy singing 6 or 7 services a week to the glory of God.
And as for the good Father's almost-stated suggestion that only people who like boys would like boys' choirs ... how come you're so keen to rubbish everybody except young girls, Father? Well, you gave it, Father, so you're jolly well going to get some back!
And has it not dawned on anybody that the reasons for having children (including boys!) in church choirs include teaching them to sing, read music and understand the liturgy - and to get them into church in the first place to try and give them a Christian view on life whilst they are still impressionable.
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
I suspect my views are very close to Nunc and aig's. My father, who ran a church choir, was very fond of the saying, "one boy is worth six girls." Unfortunately he applied it to everything and after a period of rabid anti-male feeling in my late teens, I still don't much buy the whole M&B thing.
My favourite choirs are the Bach Collegium Japan or Cappella Reial de Catalunya. Look them up.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
Nunc, I once was part of a women's chant choir that was very well rehearsed on even the simplest plainsong, in order to achieve the smoothest, most seamless tone possible. The recordings we made were occasionally approaching perfect, and we were all very proud of them and of our invitations to sing away from our sponsoring church. We were especially fond of our monthly Evensong services, each themed for the season or a saint's day. Our leader did a great deal of research to find the old chants we did. Thank you for your comments, because I found the time I spent in the group extremely satisfying. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(sorry to be so long-winded)
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
quote:
They don't , BTW, feature adult sopranos who try to sound like boy trebles
Oh yeah? What of those of us who by default have pure voices? What? Just because we're girls we are de facto expected to have huge operatic vibratos, and therefore be faking a "boy-like" sound?
What a load of old tosh. I couldn't produce a wobble if I tried. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Very true - I'm not exactly operatic either. I also agree with the other posters about the effect of the direction upon sound. Although it is obvious when you think about it - if you are continually being pulled up for any suspicion of vibrato, it will have its effect eventually. (Madame expects his sopranos to sing like boys and his altos to sing like castrati. Last week, to my joy, he accused his all female line-up of altos of "singing like a load of girls".)
quote:
quote:
One of the best mixed ensembles around in Sydney is the Jacobeans (the former choir of St James, King Street, after a bust-up some years back with a cloth eared vicar). They have an impressive treble line-up of boys and girls, together with adult sopranos. Perfectly straight and sweet-toned with nary a wobble.
My dear Duo, I beg to differ. They sang at my parish last Sunday (I was subdeacon) - Byrd 4 part. It was perfectly appalling. Especially considering my choir (our parish choir) sang it the previous week. The entries were uneven and weak, the tone was all over the place, the pace was far too slow. They may have been good once, but several people have commented that their quality has declined. Yes they still draw the boys and some girls, but there's alot of dead wood there...
The Jacobeans' decline may have something to do with the fact that Walter Sutcliffe doesn't appear to be very well; when they sing at St M's he usually plays, but he was extremely reluctant to climb the stairs on Sunday morning. He looked very pale and pasty.
That's a shame. I had heard that Walter Sutcliffe wasn't well. I have certainly heard them sound pretty good in the past.
Incidentally on the subject of changed fortunes, I heard the M&B choir down at St Mary's on Sunday, under the direction of Elizabeth Swain. The boys, in particular, are singing with much better discipline and produce a clear strong tone which isn't English, but isn't fruity continental either. In fact, I thought the tone was pretty good across all voices. They are a consonant free zone, however - not enough enunciation.
For my own part, I do have a weakness for the Westminster Cathedral Choir (as led by the blessed James), King's College Choir (in the days of David Willcocks - I have a recording of Gibbons anthems at home...) and the Oxford Camerata.
I do take the point about mixed girls and boys choirs potentially discouraging the boys. But the point remains: choral scholarships should encourage both boys and girls - of all ages.
On the point of Gregorian chant or plainsong and mixed choirs - it very much depends on the setting. All male or all female scholas do sound good, in that synchronisation and uniformity of tone may be easier. However, plainchant has a vital dimension springing from the spiritual life of the community that sings the chant. It is the expression of that spiritual life - which is necessarily mixed gender in parishes. Mixed groups also have the opportunity to add additional textures into the chant by the use of male and female cantors or smaller vocal groups within the main schola.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Well, I am operatic - and absolutely loathed singing in choirs, all the more because, since I am a lyrico spinto soprano, too many directors forced me into an alto section because of the dark timbre of my voice. I then would need three days' practise to recover my normal voice, considering I normally had to 'whisper on pitch'.
I think we need to guard against reading too much into the way music is performed. I have never seen the use of male choirs as in any way misogynist. Please excuse the silly analogy, but a piece originally written for a particular sound often does not sound right when it is performed otherwise - the effect can be akin to that of a part scored for violin being played on a trumpet (which I doubt is discriminatory against specialists in brass.)
Yes, I am aware that, particularly in the early decades of the last century, there were writers (especially Roman Catholic) who saw danger in mixed choirs - apparently singing in the same loft was assumed to be a shortcut to sexual arousal. But I do not see why having music intended for voices of those of one sex is a condemnation of those of the other.
My personal peeve (natural, for one who once studied music in a women's college) is when pieces originally scored for mixed voices (for example) are arranged for all women. Or when women, probably the few true altos, sing the tenor parts because there are no men available in a mixed choir.
I believe that Westminster Cathedral has the best choir I have heard anywhere. I find this astonishing largely because not only Roman Catholic parishes (where the music has gone from dismal to grotesque, as I learnt at a few recent funerals) but the Sistine Choir itself had led me to believe that the eleventh commandment was "RC choirs must be horrid."
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
(Madame expects his sopranos to sing like boys and his altos to sing like castrati. Last week, to my joy, he accused his all female line-up of altos of "singing like a load of girls".)
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Maybe he should tell them to sing "like a bunch of old queens"... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Just come back from Evenscream feeling vindicated in my pronouncements on plainsong. This morning the women in our choir sang the Missa de Angelis which was quite heavenly. This evening the men completely bugger*d up the plainsong responses. They just can't do it.
Evenscream? You know, Fiddleback, you're starting to arouse my pity. This is only one, IYO, unfortunate choir!
Those poor men. Struggling to do something perfectly possible while an expert like yourself sits back with his arms crossed not only permitting their difficulty, but criticizing it to the end of his own discrimination. I'll thank you to keep quiet re: misogyny as long as your seething anti-male rhetoric lingers.
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Gosh, MarkthePunk, you probably don't even care if penitential processions go round the church clockwise or counter-clockwise.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
Those poor men. Struggling to do something perfectly possible while an expert like yourself sits back with his arms crossed not only permitting their difficulty, but criticizing it to the end of his own discrimination.
I wouldn't be too sympathetic to them. Most of them are, sadly, cr*p and more concerned with lavatorial arrangements in the Fiddleback Basilica than what quality of music might emerge from their mouths.
That being said, Prof. Fiddleback is riding for a bit of a fall here methinks. There are few college choirs that are women and men that outrank the boys and men choirs of Oxbridge (perhaps Trinity Cambridge or Gonville and Caius or King's London) and even those are, by and large, very uniform in their 'straight' tone and style. That is partly because of the massive love affair with dinosaur music in the colleges and the inherent desire of the directors to make their women sound like English boys who can breathe longer in a line of Palestrina. Give the women a decent piece of Mozart, Haydn, Handel or Vierne to sing (English boys not being very good at this more butch stuff) and let them give free rein to their voices instead of trying to sound like the bland mezzo-forte toothpaste singing of the Tallis Scholars. Paradoxically, before the late 1950's and 60's, English trebles were trained to sing like operatic women. Any recordings of the Temple Church in the 1930's for example have the soloists sounding like Dame Clara Butt. The re-discovery of dinosaur music in the 60's and the desire for 'straight' tone has led to young women thinking they all have to sound like Emma Kirkby.
In any case I don't think we have to worry about the cathedrals and the colleges yet (although it will be interesting to see whether the Llandaff model of choirmen who didn't sing as boys will be repeated with the gradual encroachment of girls in traditionally boys-only choirs and the possible falling off of men to fill the lay clerk ranks) but much more worrying are the parish churches. The standard of choral music in the parishes is, outside of London, depressingly poor and scarcely a boy can be seen singing precisely because, as has been pointed out before, a ten year old boy is not going to sing with a load of girls. Also it doesn't help that most clergy are in thrall to crappy congregational mass settings or want to do away with a robed choir altogether in favour of a 'band', worship songs and 'family' services.
Cosmo
Posts: 2375 | Registered: May 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Most of them are, sadly, cr*p and more concerned with lavatorial arrangements in the Fiddleback Basilica than what quality of music might emerge from their mouths.
Ah yes, whatever did happen with the Fat Git in Fiddleback's choir? Did he get his enlarged loo loo or did the BVM get a bower? Is the FG still singing in FB's chancel, or did he decamp for more roomy lavvies and a place that did evening communion?
We must be told.
With apologies for the tangent,
HT
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
leaving the Geneva Gown on it's hook--but within reach
My, but it's getting warm in here. Perhaps if I open a few windows to let in some cooler air, folks can take some nice deep breaths before going on.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
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Posted
Two strikes. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
I'll thank you to keep quiet re: misogyny as long as your seething anti-male rhetoric lingers.
Father Fiddleback can't be that anti-male since he did attend the SKCM service at the Banqueting House. And in a raincoat, too, as I recall.
Ouch! Don't hit me again Siegfried. I'll stop.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Perhaps Father dislikes heterosexual males. Could it be that the males in his choir are of the straight persuasion? That would explain their inability to sing (or dance for that matter).
The fat git would seem to be your stereotypical het. I visualize him reading the sports section comfortably seated on a royal-flush Kohler.
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
much more worrying are the parish churches. The standard of choral music in the parishes is, outside of London, depressingly poor and scarcely a boy can be seen singing precisely because, as has been pointed out before, a ten year old boy is not going to sing with a load of girls. Also it doesn't help that most clergy are in thrall to crappy congregational mass settings or want to do away with a robed choir altogether in favour of a 'band', worship songs and 'family' services.
Cosmo
I agree with you Cosmo that parish churches are where the situation is most dire. Keeping a choir going is sheer dedication and hard work - it needs the full co-operation of the vicar as well as the organist/choirmaster. I reckon that choir members are among the most faithful and regular of the congregation - because they have to turn up every sunday.
At the moment we have more boys than girls singing (unusual?)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
quote:
(Madame expects his sopranos to sing like boys and his altos to sing like castrati. Last week, to my joy, he accused his all female line-up of altos of "singing like a load of girls".)
Maybe he should tell them to sing "like a bunch of old queens"...
Oh dear.
Oh dear. Oh dear.
You know when things are bad when you start dreaming of stuff that you imagine when you are posting...
Last night I dreamt of the "bunch of old queens" - most of the parish of St Frank's turned up in drag - and quite stunning drag it was too - for Sunday mass.
I was the only straight person there. It was such fun. The interior arrangement of the church was bit odd though: the "bunch of old queens" were all seated in bays around tables - like a homescience kitchen in a school... And these bays, apart from the sanctuary itself, were arranged like petals around the central nave (which was domed). The Sanctuary was a larger petal-shaped space coming off the main nave/dome, and it contained an altar (of course) and there were chairs where the sanctuary rails should have been, their backs to the congregation - I believe there were 12 of them. I believe the Canon was said East-facing towards the rose window above the altar.
So what's the interpretation of the dream? That I have been reading too much mystical Marian theology? Thinking too much about Our Lady? Fantasising over drag queens? (Some of them were stunning!)
Or maybe I have just spent far too much time in Anglo-Catholic circles...
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
So what's the interpretation of the dream? That I have been reading too much mystical Marian theology? Thinking too much about Our Lady? Fantasising over drag queens? (Some of them were stunning!)
Or maybe I have just spent far too much time in Anglo-Catholic circles...
I think someone needs to take your temperature! And stay away from tattoists - once my Marian phase was over (it took about 12 years, mind you) I have had to live with the Marian rose I have tattoed on my arm. It needs tattoing over, really.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
I was the only straight person there. It was such fun. The interior arrangement of the church was bit odd though: the "bunch of old queens" were all seated in bays around tables - like a homescience kitchen in a school... And these bays, apart from the sanctuary itself, were arranged like petals around the central nave (which was domed). The Sanctuary was a larger petal-shaped space coming off the main nave/dome, and it contained an altar (of course) and there were chairs where the sanctuary rails should have been, their backs to the congregation - I believe there were 12 of them. I believe the Canon was said East-facing towards the rose window above the altar.
So what's the interpretation of the dream? That I have been reading too much mystical Marian theology? Thinking too much about Our Lady? Fantasising over drag queens? (Some of them were stunning!)
Or maybe I have just spent far too much time in Anglo-Catholic circles...
Yes, yes - but was the liturgy celebrated according to tradition and the rubrics of the Mass?
The funny thing once you take away the bays and the petal-shaped stuff and shift the rose window to the eastern end of the church ....it's not a bad description of St Frank's.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
(well, I did try to get the conversation back on track )
retires with a shrug ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
Sorry Chorister.
You are right about the dedication required for parish choirs... And the team effort it is to run one effectively.
I think it lovely, though very unusual, that you have so many boys. I hope they will go on to be excellent Tenors and Basses. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
From the obituary of Lionel Dakers in The Guardian:
quote:
He closed the residential College of St Nicolas, at Addington palace, which then became a centre for short courses, expanded music publishing, strengthened the regional provision of committees, and encouraged ecumenical outreach. The closure of the college was a sensible decision at the time - it was expensive, and was not recruiting well; but, with hindsight, it removed the educational core, and the RSCM did not develop the comprehensive training for parish church musicians that its founder had envisaged - and the churches still badly need.
For a slight tangent, but better than drag queens , can anyone enlighten me as to what this means? About the RSCM not developing comprehensive training for parish church musicians?
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I've just revisited this thread after a long break, and I am puzzled too. The RSCM is certainly alive and well in this area - approx. 2 events every month - and how many people from Devon were prepared to travel all the way to Addington palace anyway? National courses are great, and the RSCM still run them (their scope has diversified to include music group leaders, which some criticise, but they need to be trained as well) - but how much better to run courses in each county which people can travel to more easily. They also do a lot more schools work these days.
Maybe some parts of the country / world are not so lucky, let me know what it is like in your area.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Nunc, I am happy to report that of the boys whose voices have broken in recent years, 2 have stayed on to become tenors and 2 stayed on to become basses. As we are not a university town, we generally lose them at the age of 18 which is a pity - hopefully they will go on to become useful choir members elsewhere (and come back and join us for the holidays, at least for the first few years!)
Now we need some more younger ones again.......
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dies Irae
Shipmate
# 2804
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Posted
Indeed, I am one of those types to whom Chorister refers, well, almost.
I had very little musical experience as a child, except for a few Viola lessons when about 11, they were not hugely successful.
At 16 I joined the choir of the church I had just started attending and sang Bass, I was somewhat 'carried' by the other stronger basses aroud me. However, having now been at university for two years my voice and my musical aptitude have developed considerably. When home for the holidays I sing with the choir again and even managed a tenor(!) solo at the Nine Lessons and Carols last year. This development would not have been possible if it had not been for that parish church choir, and I can see how this is of obvious benefit to the musical education of boys if they get the chance to start earlier (I wish I had).
What for me is more concerning than the changing patterns by gender of membership of choirs, is the apparent lack of interest from children at all. Our choir benefitted from around 16 boys trebles and a small choir of 8ish girls voices, the original proposal was to build a new set of stalls for the girls to occupy asd the boys filled the original stalls, now we are fortunate if we ever fill the original stalls with boys and girls mixed! Particularly alarming is the fact that boy membership has slumped to around 4!
Putting my head above the parapet here, I have to say that I prefer the sound of boys' voices to those of girls or women, especially for church music. There seems to be something purer and less breathy about a real treble's voice, that's not to see that some girls and women haven't achieved this too.
Posts: 148 | From: London | Registered: May 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Will you be at Exeter Cathedral for the RSCM Anniversary Songs of Praise Broadcast, DI? Mass Gathering of RSCM choristers (not all of them - too many to fit!) from Devon Area, plus cathedral choir. To be broadcast June 8th (Whit Sunday). Hope we can show that church choirs are still alive and kicking (and even singing!) in this part of the world.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
From the obituary of Lionel Dakers in "that other newspaper"
I remember reading an anecdote about Lionel Dakers (who was also OC at Exeter Cathedral for many years) lamenting the fact that the cathedral organist no longer wore morning dress for Mattins.
Very sad indeed.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Wayward Crucifer
Shipmate
# 152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dies Irae:
At 16 I joined the choir of the church I had just started attending and sang Bass, I was somewhat 'carried' by the other stronger basses aroud me. However, having now been at university for two years my voice and my musical aptitude have developed considerably. When home for the holidays I sing with the choir again and even managed a tenor(!) solo at the Nine Lessons and Carols last year. This development would not have been possible if it had not been for that parish church choir, and I can see how this is of obvious benefit to the musical education of boys if they get the chance to start earlier (I wish I had).
What for me is more concerning than the changing patterns by gender of membership of choirs, is the apparent lack of interest from children at all. Our choir benefitted from around 16 boys trebles and a small choir of 8ish girls voices, the original proposal was to build a new set of stalls for the girls to occupy asd the boys filled the original stalls, now we are fortunate if we ever fill the original stalls with boys and girls mixed! Particularly alarming is the fact that boy membership has slumped to around 4!
Putting my head above the parapet here, I have to say that I prefer the sound of boys' voices to those of girls or women, especially for church music. There seems to be something purer and less breathy about a real treble's voice, that's not to see that some girls and women haven't achieved this too.
I think the comment about the number in the stalls is, too sadly, true. But I can remember the days, before the girls started singing, when having 4 boys at the evening service was high attendance. I also think that, at this particular church, there are fewer children than there used to be a few years ago, and this has affected recruitment of younger members. At least there still are children in the choir, and enough to manage. I think that if we lose the children alltogether, then we risk creating a situation where a choir is seen to be for "old" people only. That way lies, I believe, the dismissal of the choir as pointless and irrelevant.
However, at least 5 of the men, and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head, sang in that choir as boys - and I have heard stories of the tmes when there were so many boys that a row of chairs was a permanant addition to those choir stalls.
I also think, and this is suspect is true of almost all choirs, that things like the membership and enthusiasm move in cycles. I think Dies Irea started in the choir he refers to when it was more or less at the best it had been in the past ten years (or more). I only hope that things do start to improve with recruiting children, both boys and girls, and soon, because several of the men are in the soon to go to university and then leave age group.
With respect to the effect of the choir trainer, a little story.
The organist at my local cathedral retired, and was replaced by a new one, as tends to be the case. I took part in two services where the choir of this cathedral also sang, one a few months before the change in organist, one a mere six weeks after. In the first, the choir sounded OK - they were competent, but not exactly as fantastic as one would perhaps expect the cathedral choir to sound. Some people had even described the choir of my church as better than this choir.
After the new organist arrived, the difference was actually quite noticable. In six weeks he had the choir in a position where many of us at the service were pleasantly surprised by what we heard, and the sound was much better - given what we had expected, it was quite startling in fact.
Wayward
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"it is folly -- it is madness -- to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."
Frank Weston, Bishop of Zanzibar
Posts: 314 | From: Over here! | Registered: May 2001
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raphael
Shipmate
# 4377
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Posted
In a parish with a men and boy choir, would any girls and woman actually want to join a choir of only boys and men? Especially girls, they would feel completely..... out, which is sad as they may have real talent and great voices.
In my parish we have a mixed choir, but my servers are only boys- 12-16 year old boys. I find it immpossible to get girls to join. I beg and plead, and I know that they want to serve, but would feel completely out.
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It is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should, at all times and in all places give thanks unto thee, O Lord, Holy Father, Almighty, Everlasting God.
Posts: 168 | From: South Africa | Registered: Apr 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Maybe it varies in different countries, b+f. Here it would be more common for a very successful m+b choir to stay m+b; they would start a separate choir for the girls. A mixed choir would probably be considered if the numbers of boys dropped a long way, and then it wouldn't be so difficult to recruit girls. Maybe if you got the girl server wannabes into a group and trained them separately, they could start by doing additional services rather than the main services which are seen as the boys' domain.
What my church has seen happening in recent years, is that more and more adults want to join the choir and serve. It is great to encourage them but I would hate the kids to think that it is really for adults and then not want to take part themselves. It is difficult to get the balance just right. We have several families where the parent sings alongside the child, which works quite well in our situation.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
What my church has seen happening in recent years, is that more and more adults want to join the choir and serve. It is great to encourage them but I would hate the kids to think that it is really for adults and then not want to take part themselves. It is difficult to get the balance just right. We have several families where the parent sings alongside the child, which works quite well in our situation.
Certainly the case for me. I was shoved into the junior choir (90% girls) at age 5 so my mother wouldn't have to cope with me as well as my 2-yr old sister. My older sister was already there, and my father was in the adult choir. I loved that he was there, even if he was in the back pew and I in the front.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Our situation is very much as Chorister describes. A M+B choir and a separate girls choir. They all sing together on Sunday mornings (in separate rows in the choir stalls) and then mix and match for Evensong - M+B, M+G, girls only. So the top line is overwhelmingly children. Then there is another adult choir which does mid week saints days. A number of the ex-boys come into the back row, but they almost all turn out to be baritones .
But where I was a choirboy in Lincolnshire is having great problems like so many parishes outside the cities.
Someone mentioned the need for the support of the vicar. Also the church has to be prepared to pay for the level/scale of music it wants. The average choirmaster's salary can only be a top-up to a full-time job, which can make it difficult to get someone to move on account of the job, so you are dependent on the talent already in the area. And in London there's also the problem of the cost of accommodation.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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MadKaren
Shipmate
# 1033
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Posted
So there doesn't seem to be much for a female who sings alto (like me - who dropped out of uni choir because I couldn't sight read music btw)?? It's all kids, or soprano's being told to sound like kids, or blokes from what is being said here...
Whats a counter tenor anyway?
MadKaren
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Why do people who claim to love God embarrass him in public?
Posts: 866 | From: Jumping along the line between genius and insanity.... | Registered: Aug 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
It's a tenor who can keep with the beat. Not so rare as a similar bass perhaps, but tenors don't have to sing as many notes.
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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