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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW: Choirs of Men and Boys
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There will always be a place for women in choirs - just not always in the church of your choice. Lots and lots of choirs have women singing Alto and many the top line.
Regarding not being able to read music, madkaren, this probably depends on the attitude of the choir trainer. Some are very busy and don't really want to have people in the choir who are not able to read music or teach themselves. Others are very accommodating and are welcoming to anyone with a blendable sounding voice, as the ability to read music can be taught later. Some people in my choir find it hard to read music, but are prepared to work on it at home, bashing the notes out on a piano, eg.
John Bell does workshops in which he argues that everyone should be able to sing, whether they think they can or not. Much of what he teaches does not involve looking at music at all - it is all taught by rote.
So don't give up yet, madkaren, you might need to look around for the 'right' choirtrainer.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
madkaren, a countertenor is a male voice singing alto. (You may file Pre-cambrian's remarks under "Choir Jokes" or just choose to ignore them.)
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
A countertenor is a tenor who can count - yes very good! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) (missed that one first time through)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
On a more serious point, some choir masters prefer to have adults because it can mean a rather easier time than dealing with children. A choir of trained adults is a piece of cake compared to a choir or boys and/or girls when it comes to learning new pieces, and you don't need to go through the constant effort of replenishing numbers and teaching afresh, which is particularly the case with boys with their short singing lives.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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MadKaren
Shipmate
# 1033
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Posted
Thats what I suspected...both the real answer and pre-cambrian's joke. I guess jokes get worse the older one gets.... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
MadKaren
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Why do people who claim to love God embarrass him in public?
Posts: 866 | From: Jumping along the line between genius and insanity.... | Registered: Aug 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
4,000 million years isn't old!!!
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
On a more serious point, some choir masters prefer to have adults because it can mean a rather easier time than dealing with children. A choir of trained adults is a piece of cake compared to a choir or boys and/or girls when it comes to learning new pieces, and you don't need to go through the constant effort of replenishing numbers and teaching afresh, which is particularly the case with boys with their short singing lives.
This is also a sound reason for working with girls - assuming you don't kick them out at 14 you have a steady base to work with, and the voices change a bit but not drastically. As well, the maturity level and sit-still ability of an 11-yr old girl far outreaches that of an 11-yr old boy.
However, when it comes to teaching new music, your adults need to be trained in order to learn quickly. Unless you have good sight-readers among them, it is far easier and quicker to teach by rote to children. They think it's fun, and they enjoy singing by heart, which adults hate. Take away their music - even try and make them not look at it - and they panic. Freaky...
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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raphael
Shipmate
# 4377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
the case with boys with their short singing lives.
Short singing lives? Why?
(Excuse my ignorance)
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It is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should, at all times and in all places give thanks unto thee, O Lord, Holy Father, Almighty, Everlasting God.
Posts: 168 | From: South Africa | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
Because their voices change.
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More abomination, more abomination
Posts: 1008 | From: West of Gotham | Registered: Nov 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
And in some churches and cathedrals that means they have to leave the choir (they may rejoin later when their voices have settled to an adult part, but often not in the same choir - every choir needs more trebles than lower parts for reasons of volume).
However, in other churches, mine included, the boys are gladly welcomed into the back row of the choirstalls as soon as their voices change, to sing the part with which they are most comfortable. So some go straight to tenor or bass, some sing alto (usually for a while, although occasionally one may stay as an alto). Because of the problem of losing boys altogether when they stop singing treble, more churches encourage them to stay in the choir, or give them a chance to become servers/acolytes/crossbearers during adolescence.
Do I gather it is different in S.Africa?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
from Blood and Fire:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
the case with boys with their short singing lives.
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Short singing lives? Why?
(Excuse my ignorance)
Believe me, if you'd met some of our boys you'd be wondering why we couldn't cut short more than their singing lives.
Chorister: we generally take a lot of ex-trebles into the men's choir as well, although we tend to give a bit of time for the yodelling to stop, and to hope that they don't end up as basses. But they still hang around wanting to get back in. Maybe it's a little-acknowledged benefit of haveing a girls choir. It's fascinating the way "yeuch, girlies" becomes "woof woof, girls!". A little-acknowledged drawback is that it may encourage everything to drop earlier, thereby shortening their treble singing lives even more.
[Fixed quote tags. Please use preview post.]
[ 13. May 2003, 21:10: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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raphael
Shipmate
# 4377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
And in some churches and cathedrals that means they have to leave the choir (they may rejoin later when their voices have settled to an adult part, but often not in the same choir - every choir needs more trebles than lower parts for reasons of volume).
However, in other churches, mine included, the boys are gladly welcomed into the back row of the choirstalls as soon as their voices change, to sing the part with which they are most comfortable. So some go straight to tenor or bass, some sing alto (usually for a while, although occasionally one may stay as an alto). Because of the problem of losing boys altogether when they stop singing treble, more churches encourage them to stay in the choir, or give them a chance to become servers/acolytes/crossbearers during adolescence.
Do I gather it is different in S.Africa?
I have no idea. I am the head server, not the choir master and I have little to do with the choir, except hear them sing, cense them and fight with the choir master beacause I want kids to serve and he wants them to sing. I do suppose this is the case, though. As for the question of boy's short singing lives, I know their voices change (I was also a boy)but I never thought this meant they could no longer sing. But I see now, thanks.
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It is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should, at all times and in all places give thanks unto thee, O Lord, Holy Father, Almighty, Everlasting God.
Posts: 168 | From: South Africa | Registered: Apr 2003
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
They can certainly sing, just not sing treble.
To win the love and admiration of your choir director, why not hold off poaching the boys until he tells you someone's voice has changed, and then approach him? The boy in question is probably feeling self-concious about the new croaks, and may be glad of somewhere to 'hide out' until things stabilise.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
ON RIGHT NOW on BBC3 - Evensong from St David's cathrdral: girls and men. Can you tell the difference?
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
St Davids is an interesting mirror image of the usual scenario. The cathedral choir is men and girls, but there is a separate, quite recently started, boys choir that sings occasionally.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
St Davids is an interesting mirror image of the usual scenario. The cathedral choir is men and girls, but there is a separate, quite recently started, boys choir that sings occasionally.
Yup - it's all the girls' younger brothers.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Shrinking Violet
Shipmate
# 4587
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Posted
My father sang in St Andrews Cathedral choir as a boy soprano and yet he has no preference or bias over these types of choir. I now sing alto in the local church choir and my father loves to come and listen to me sing.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) I would hate it if I couldn't sing...
I think there is a place for males AND females in choirs, everybody should have the chance to worship through music.
Besides, I don't think that a young boy soprano is *that* distinguishable from a very good young girl soprano.
Singing and signing off.....
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Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
Posts: 430 | From: Ghana | Registered: Jun 2003
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
quote:
I would hate it if I couldn't sing...
Spare a thought for the St Andrew's Cathedral(Syd) choristers today!
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Yes, indeed.
And Violet, that is precisely what riles this middle-aged and multiparous chorister (in a very trad robed RC parish choir) -that well-worn attitude that a girl soprano has to be regarded as "very good" before she is on par with ANY wretched boy!
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quod scripsi, scripsi
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
quote:
I would hate it if I couldn't sing...
Spare a thought for the St Andrew's Cathedral(Syd) choristers today!
I know how it feels: these priests tell you the choir is 'alien to their culture'. However, I find such an attitude 'alien to my culture' ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I hope people who have had the unfortunate experience of being in a church where the vicar / minister has got rid of the choir will try to find somewhere else to sing - it is a pity if their talent is wasted, especially when other church choirs are crying out for more members.
Several of the choirs in my area have received members from two large local choirs which were forcibly disbanded by Jensen-type vicars - one a mixed choir, the other all-male. One church's loss is another church's gain.......
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Shrinking Violet
Shipmate
# 4587
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
And Violet, that is precisely what riles this middle-aged and multiparous chorister (in a very trad robed RC parish choir) -that well-worn attitude that a girl soprano has to be regarded as "very good" before she is on par with ANY wretched boy!
Oh dear, I didn't mean it like that ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif)
What I meant was that a very good boy soprano is difficult to distinguish from a very good girl soprano. Sorry. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
Posts: 430 | From: Ghana | Registered: Jun 2003
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
(personal tangent)
Coming from an RC background and worshipping in the CoC now - we are all the choir. NO choice. NT example ties singing in with worship so well, we can't get out of it.
Which is Good. I, too, cannot stop singing.
My daughter, sister & I did a walk-on with the church choir at my grandmother's funeral Mass last July. We'd never met these people before, but they took us in with them without a qualm. "Sight-unheard". It was beautiful, being able to serve Mamman and the rest of the family in that way. Sis and I don't read music as well as Jess, but when you've a good ear and it's traditional music, you can do a good job.
I love to listen to an all-male choir. Especially in a cathedral with the acoustics to really make it glorious-sounding.
(/tangent)
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Aaaawwww Violet, don't shrink-I knew what you REALLY meant!
cheers,
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
'Traditionalists' are the sort of people who are rather keen on beating boys, I should have thought.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
I may have overlooked something in the article, but I have methodological questions regarding the 130 listeners. Were they drawn from the general population? Was there any attempt to establish whether or not they had any experience in listening to choral music, or serious music at all for that matter?
I found no mention of controls for ability to make simple musical or even sonic judgments. Could they, for example, distinguish a tenor from a counter-tenor or even a bass from an alto? Could they detect from listening that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is is a somewhat larger group than the Cambridge Singers?
The average person on the street would probably be unable to distinguish a boy choir (or a girl choir for that matter) from the Muppets particularly if the three groups were singing something as rarefied as Anglican liturgical music.
Unless the 130 listeners had at some degree of musical sophistication, I would give no weight to their ability to make esoteric musical judgments.
Moreover, in my opinion, the tired referemce to "sexism" betrays more than a little experimental bias.
Greta
[ 09. September 2003, 16:33: Message edited by: CorgiGreta ]
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Flounder
Shipmate
# 3859
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Posted
Interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
<Bump>
Just thought I'd resurrect this before someone started a new thread.
Since same ol' same ol' is in the news again.
***
When I was a little girl, then a teenager, I had that husky speaking voice but a very clear singing voice. I was much louder than the boys and didn't really blend in with the group too well. My voice resembled a very loud boy alto with a couple of high notes, along with some extra low notes thrown in.
<Boring Tangent> Later, as my voice started to mature in college, I sounded sort of like a countertenor. Eww. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) But hey, at least that got me the lead in a medieval miracle drama: The Miracles of St. Nicholas — The King of Getron.
Then in grad school, I finally started to sound like a woman — a lyric mezzo. Now that I am, um, a bit past grad school, I am settling into the lower mezzo and contralto literature. I'll be getting my first taste of Verdi soon! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) </Boring Tangent>
[ 09. September 2003, 17:31: Message edited by: Flounder ]
Posts: 1082 | From: Flounderland | Registered: Dec 2002
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
It's important to note that the researcher claims the girls are indistinguishable from the boys only when they are singing ensemble, but not when they are singing solo. "Once in Royal David's City" anyone?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
I have heard same sung by a pre-pubertal girl who was hidden from the view of all the admiring men-and -boys aficionados who thought she WAS a boy;they could hardly backpedal when the horrid truth was revealed!
(still laughing)m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Hostly Mobcap ON
[(blows accumulated dust off of thread and brings it up from the MW basement)
We knew we'd need this thread again, so we have saved it, Lo! these many months...
Hostly Mobcap OFF
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
And thank you for saving/resurrecting it. I've just read it entirely.
It's surprising the various ways that people describe a sound. Some say that continental boychoirs are "hooty" or "fruity." I would never describe them that way, but rather more brilliant. Some English choirs might be hooty, if their tone is strongly in the Victorian style. I have a multi-disc album of Christmas carols sung by various cathedral choirs, dating from the 1970s I think. The tone of the Litchfield Cathedral choir was conspicuously hooty at that time (under Greening's direction). I can't say I liked that sound very much, although I do admire the "English" sound in general, which IMHO reached the peak of perfection at King's under Willcocks. Their tone has been brighter and less distinctive ever since.
Acoustics can make a great difference, too. Out in the nave of St. Paul's Cathedral, London, when I visited in the early 1970s, the treble tone sounded very round and fluty. Then I heard an evensong sitting in the choir stalls. They sounded completely different up close, much brighter.
No, Terry's choir at Westminster Cathedral was not particularly distinctive in its tone. His great pioneering contribution was in the area of repertoire, bringing back literally reams of Tudor and other Renaissance Latin music that England had not heard for centuries. And in order to do so, he developed the choristers' sight reading to a degree that amazed the world. It is reported that they could (although it is not to say that they often actually did) sight-read a polyphonic mass in service with the perfection of a professional performance.
It is incorrect as well as condescending to accuse boys (or girls) of being inherently incapable of whatever required standard because they can't read music well. If they are well taught and expected to do so, they can and do. One's raw intelligence is at its peak at this age. So is one's ear. Because of this, they are also capable of learning quickly by rote. Hence it is a temptation when pressed for time (and when isn't a choir pressed for time?) to rely on this ability more-or-less to the neglect of reading; but this is a crutch that disserves everyone in the long run, and a reflexion on their training rather than their native capacities.
The brilliance in the tone of the Westminster trebles came under George Malcolm in the 1940s and 1950s. George Guest at St. John's, Cambridge, is probably better known for introducing the continental sound, but Malcolm was there first, and to a greater extreme. (This choir has had a remarkable history of achievement considering that it is only about 100 years old.)
Malcolm probably believed that his tone was more appropriate for Renaissance music. Probably we can never know the truth, but some scholarly opinion holds that the "English" round tone dates essentially from the Victorian era, with choirs in Byrd's time sounding more like those on the continent do now. Other people suggest that there was a national difference in tone even then, and it was reflected in differences in style between Byrd's and Palestrina's choral writing-- Byrd's being more dissonant to provide a color that was less telling in the tone itself.
The tone of the choirs of the Sistine Chapel and of Montserrat in Spain are remarkably operatic and full of a rather wide vibrato. It's hard for me to believe from the sound of a Montserrat recording that I am hearing boys at all.
Well, vive la difference! I regret a little that the "English" sound has seemed to be in such disfavor that it is now hard to find. On the other hand, I must admit that the Vienna Choirboys and some German choirs do seem to produce boy soloists who sing circles around most English head choristers in the suppleness, assurance and expressiveness that they bring to difficult passagework like the arias of Bach or Mozart. In this sense, perhaps the underlying vocal training is on a sounder basis.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
I may have overlooked something in the article, but I have methodological questions regarding the 130 listeners.
In the early 1990s, Barry Rose would mention an early test in which individual girls and boys sang behind a screen, and cathedral organists proved mostly unable to tell which were which,
but their wives could tell.
Some ten years later, he has moderated his earlier claim that there is really no difference.
Choir trainers report a difference in the "oo" vowel, which boys can produce easily but girls have a decided tendency to sing "ew". They can't explain this but suspect that it is ultimately anatomical.
There are also temperamental differences. People report that girls' choirs' performance is more consistent and predictable from day to day, whereas boys might sound thrilling and ethereal one day and relatively excruciating the next.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Choir trainers report a difference in the "oo" vowel, which boys can produce easily but girls have a decided tendency to sing "ew".
An interesting distinction which is certainly noticeable in the boys' and girls' choirs at my own church. The "ew" continues into the girls who are really women.
A very well known southern England cathedral girls choir has a distinct, persistent and rather irritating tendency to lisp - "Beatuth, beatuth vir" as I remember them singing once.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
Interesting and apposite, Al and PreC. The discussion is continued on the sleeve notes of the recent series of CDs The Better Land.
San Paolo Maggiore seems to have much more of an edge to the tone these days than in the past, and the Victoria Street Gasworks (at least under O'Donnell) was/is extremely Italian. We are wondering if the San P tone will be imported to our little chapel on Fifth Avenue when John Scott arrives. Certainly the musicality, and supreme self-confidence, of the little kiddies in both these great London choirs is awesome: it makes one ask - why is this just an Anglo phenomenon? Where are the choirs in France, Italy etc?
Posts: 945 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Deon
Shipmate
# 609
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Do you think you would get men singing if they had not first sung as boys? Most if not all the men in my church choir first sang as trebles.
That is a great big myth invented by the raincoat brigade to maintain the object of their fantasies. In the last Cathedral choir I was involved with, ony two of the men had been boy choristers.
Well, Fiddleback, you must have been part of something of a rarity.
I have been directing church choirs for the last thirty-two years. In all that time, I have had only one man join the choir who was not a boy chorister - and he didn't last more than a few weeks.
The entire present men's complement (11) of St Michael's Choir sang as boys - and all but two in Anglican Choirs. (One of the others was at Westminster Cathedral; and one Dutch Reformed.)
It is extremely difficult to attract adult male singers for a host of reasons; the commitment on Sundays being the prime one. It's alright for you lot, given your filthy weather; here, we have to compete against the joys of sunshine, beaches, vineyards and mountains. Male adult singers join the Opera Chorus, which is btw stupendous in Cape Town. and keep their sundays for themselves.
It's the men who were "hooked" as kids who stay on, and on, and on ....
Cheers
Posts: 392 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Deon:
It's alright for you lot, given your filthy weather; here, we have to compete against the joys of sunshine, beaches, vineyards and mountains. [/QB]
Indeed so. Deon is entirely correct, but he also neglected to mention that most Cape Town churches look like warehouses. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Deon
Shipmate
# 609
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
quote:
Originally posted by Deon:
It's alright for you lot, given your filthy weather; here, we have to compete against the joys of sunshine, beaches, vineyards and mountains.
Indeed so. Deon is entirely correct, but he also neglected to mention that most Cape Town churches look like warehouses. [/QB]
(Edith Evans doing Lady Bracknell) : " A WAREhouse?????"
This www.stmichael.co.za is a warehouse????
Cheers
Posts: 392 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Jun 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Thanks, Deon. Unfortunately, the link doesn't work on my computer, but I have seen photos of your your beautiful church, and I was sorely tempted to rush to its defense.
When I someday am able to visit South Africa, I shall certainly make Mass attendance at St. Michael's a top priority. It is my hope that when that day comes, you are still there as o.-c. so that I can be assured of liturgical music of the highest standards offered in a church that, thanks be to God, looks like a church.
Greta
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Deon
Shipmate
# 609
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Thanks, Deon. Unfortunately, the link doesn't work on my computer, but I have seen photos of your your beautiful church, and I was sorely tempted to rush to its defense.
Sorry. Try this:
http://stmichael.org.za/
Cheers
Posts: 392 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I apologise Deon. It looks like a barn - but, perhaps, the 'handsomest barn in South Africa'. Certainly something to rival the sunny beaches, vineyards and floral wildernesses of the Cape.
Nevertheless, as with most pictures of SA, it is the exception which is, so wonderfully South African.
Although to be fair, the place where I got married is quite attractive.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Deon
Shipmate
# 609
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
Although to be fair, the place where I got married is quite attractive.
Yes, indeed! A most lovely cathedral. To bring it back to topic, it used to have a superb choir of men and boys; but the inevitable "modernization" of liturgy put paid to that.
Hope the music was half decent when you got married!
Cheers
Posts: 392 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
It was! The missus (who used to sing at St. Martin's in the Veld, JHB) saw to that.
(however as I understand that my wife was never a boy this could be seen to be rather off topic).
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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