Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by barrea:
I do believe too that the bible does teach that sex between two people of the same sex is wrong...

[Previous aborted post and duplicate of this one deleted]

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But you think it's OK to abort posts?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Clearly this principle is applied to paedophiles - for lots of good reasons. (No, I'm not trying to equate the two - just point out that the principle is applied to one group). So clearly this is not a generally applicable line of logic.....

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Fish Fish:
I don't hear anyone excluding you from eternal life, and I agree its up to God. I wouldn't dare step on his toes.

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Well, that's a relief. Big of you.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Space Monkey:
Oh, come on! You are saying that for a whole class of people, who are members of that class by birth not choice, the option of lifelong sexual union with one partner (something the church is supposed to value very highly) should not be available under any circumstances. You insist they should remain celibate (and saying it applies for straight singles too doesn't wash, because they have the option of marriage).

You may claim that it's God's law, loving the sinner, or whatever else you like, but there's no way you can deny that it's discrimination. That's what the word 'discrimination' means, you know. Or are conservatives going to start getting upset about having that applied to them too?

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Clearly this principle is applied to paedophiles - for lots of good reasons. (No, I'm not trying to equate the two - just point out that the principle is applied to one group). So clearly this is not a generally applicable line of logic.....

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
hosting

To use paedophilia once to illustrate a point relating to homosexuality, Enders Shadow, may be regarded as a misfortune. To do it twice looks like carelessness.

You know well enough not to do it thrice.

Alan
Purgatory host

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Fish Fish:
As I understand it, ES is NOT equating homosexuality and paedophilia.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Fish Fish:
As I understand it, ES is NOT equating homosexuality and paedophilia. What ES is doing is showing that the basis of an argument is flawed. There is a world of difference.

We are questioning how one determines sexual morality. The concensus on this site is that sexual morality is not decided by any absolute, or external authority. It is decided by rational thought - I decide what is my sexual morality. I have decided that homosexual sex is morally acceptable, and so that is what I will practice.

This arguement makes sense until you apply it to people of practices which society still finds unaceptable - such as paedaphilia. This is NOT to equate homosexuals with paedophiles - but to draw parallels with the processes by which moral choices are made.

So, what is to stop a paedophile deciding on their own rational grounds, since there are no abdolute moral boundaries, and no external aithorities, that they wish to express themselves sexually? If rational thought is our arbiter, then they should have as much right as anyone to do what they choose. We might claim "Their sex is non-consentual" - but if there are no absolute moral guidelines, who made that the deciding line?

Can someone answer that without simply missing the point, and decrying the argument as offensive?

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
...and obscures real homophobia and racism.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
...and obscures real homophobia and racism.

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Mark, am I being racist when somebody cuts me off in traffic, and I look over at the driver and mutter to myself "black bitch!"

She never hears it. Is it real racism? Or just, you know, regular run-of-the-mill road rage?

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
Or could we say that action was immoral - even though no-one felt hurt by it?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
Or could we say that action was immoral - even though no-one felt hurt by it?

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Action? What action? The action of speaking? Is talk action? Do tell.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
...and obscures real homophobia and racism.

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Mark, am I being racist when somebody cuts me off in traffic, and I look over at the driver and mutter to myself "black bitch!"

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Not only that, you're being sexist too.

--------------------
In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Clearly this principle is applied to paedophiles - for lots of good reasons. (No, I'm not trying to equate the two - just point out that the principle is applied to one group). So clearly this is not a generally applicable line of logic.....

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This is one good example of why there is the Dead Horse thread. Some people simply refuse to try to understand the difference between a sexual orientation and an abusive power relationship. The analogy becomes a false analogy because any sexual orientation does not work the same way as an abusive power relationship.

I appears that you still do not understand that pedophiles really don't care about the gender of their victims. The important thing for a pedophile is finding a person over which they can exert control and power. That is why the vast majority of cases involve family members: access and power.

There was a time in my life I did not understand many of the concepts behind sexuality, sexual orientation, and pathologies. I am not "expert" (although I have experiences that have given me more knowledge than most lay people), but I do pay attention to those that are experts by training and work experience.

Please, please, please read, mark, and learn something about this subject before saying somthing like this again. Please.

--------------------
This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
Yup - the action of thinking a hateful thought about someone and putting it into speech is immoral.

IMNSHO, of course.

Pax,
ar

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:
Not only that, you're being sexist too.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
pedophiles really don't care about the gender of their victims.

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Posted                    

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I always sorta assumed there were some straight ones and some gay ones...

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I always sorta assumed there were some straight ones and some gay ones...

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Oh dear. Now there's a tangent.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
pedophiles really don't care about the gender of their victims.

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Really? I never knew that. I always sorta assumed there were some straight ones and some gay ones...

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Callan:
Suggesting that homosexuality is comparable to paedophillia is like suggesting that the policies of the current American government are comparable to those of the Nazis.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
But ES wasn't comparing homosexuality to paedophilia. He was using paedophilia as a counter-example to a proposed general principle.

I nobody capable of reading this thread objectively?

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I think as soon as the words "paedophilia" or "paedophile" appear in a posting, people's eyes glaze over or become clouded with an angry red haze and context just doesn't matter anymore.

But since you insist--*goes back and reads ES's post*--I think that to make any such analogy as he wants to make, someone would have to demonstrate that a paedophile really longs for a lifelong monogamous relationship with a single young child, and that that is what we are denying him/her.

Now whether that's true or not, do we really want to delve into such a matter just for the sake of making a point here?
The thought makes me

--------------------
In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Fish Fish:
but I don't know how to set one up!

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Posted                      

quote:

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But the current American government and the Nazis were both elected governments. So you're talking about a matter of degree, right? Apples and apples?

Which would then say that homesexuality and paedophillia are both about sex? I didn't realize that, but then I don't know a lot about paedophillia.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

Some of the offence comes from the historic, recent, and current oppression of LGBT people in many parts of the world. It should be obvious that while such oppression takes place (anywhere, to anyone), our use of language (anywhere, by anyone) needs to be extra-sensitive. That includes language used to say anything you think is true....

Back to our current case. While gay man are being buried alive under toppled walls (Afghanistan), murdered (most places), and knifed (a street in Manchester last week), are you allowed to say the things you say and ask the things you ask that look to us like you're 'against' us (to whatever degree)?

I don't think so.

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Posted                       

quote:

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“…full of hate-filled homophobia…”

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quote:

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“Homophobia is a scandal and offence to the gospel…”

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quote:

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“to work for the redemption of the churches from the sin of homophobia”

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quote:

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Sin is not primarily refusing to accept a new identity granted in baptism; it is refusing to accept and affirm one’s own and others’ identities as they find these identities in themselves. Refusing to accept a person’s homosexual identity is the sin of homophobia. The sin of homophobia resides primarily in the heterosexual majority, and only derivatively in homosexuals insofar as they internalize rejection by the heterosexual majority. In this view the slogan “love the sinner and hate the sin” is a particularly odious manifestation of homophobia.

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quote:

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All that has been said positively about “gay” is repeated in a negative way about “homophobia.” If being “gay” is the condition of accepting and affirming joyfully the fact that one is a homosexual, “homophobia” means rejecting such a condition. To those who promote the value of homosexuality, “homophobia” is a most loathsome malady which must be cured. Incidentally, when they speak of “homophobia” in social terms as a form of discrimination, it is something to be eliminated from society; and when they speak of it in religious terms as a sin, it is something that must be repented of.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Space Monkey:
However, there's a lot of evidence, both anecdotal and scientific, that sexuality and gender preference, in many cases, is a natural inborn tendency at least as much as a learned or chosen behaviour. I'm sure there are peopple here who know their stuff (either from research or personal experience) and could back me up on this.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Kyralessa: try
here
here (could be referring to the same research)
and here
Is that enough to make a start?

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quote:

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"First, the family should have exactly two gay brothers. If there were only one gay man there'd be no enrichment for the gene, and if there were more than two, we ran the risk of selecting rare and unusual genes. Second, there should be at most one lesbian in the family. This is because the family studies showed that male and female homosexuality were not commonly found together and we wanted to use typical (sic) families. Finally, we did not want families with gay fathers and gay sons, because this pattern would not be consistent with X-chromosome linkage." (italics added)

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Kyralessa: try
here
here (could be referring to the same research)
and here
Is that enough to make a start?

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Not quite. The first is just a vague news story with plenty of "could show" and "may indicate". The second I can't get to (requires registration).

As for the third, an article by those who did the study cited can be found here, and following it you can see a response by researchers who did a similar study but didn't come up with positive results.

...

All of which is to say that for people to say that the "gay gene" has been found, or that it's been proven that homosexuality is genetically based, goes far beyond present research.

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However, the evidence for the counter-claims alluded to by some people on this thread, that homosexuality is a mental illness or due to childhood traumas or other developmental problems, is, of course, very strong indeed

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Space Monkey:
However, the evidence for the counter-claims alluded to by some people on this thread, that homosexuality is a mental illness or due to childhood traumas or other developmental problems, is, of course, very strong indeed

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Space Monkey:
...However, the evidence for the counter-claims alluded to by some people on this thread, that homosexuality is a mental illness or due to childhood traumas or other developmental problems, is, of course, very strong indeed

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Fish Fish:
...the evidence I have read, and from personal observation, would suggest (and I can only speak of male homosexuality), that very very often there is a connection between an emotionall absent / unloving / or even abusive father during formative years, and homosexual feelings.

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Posted                      

quote:

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To dismiss the possibility of expecting a group to remain celibate is a thus a dangerous basis on which to argue that gay sex should be seen as legitimate.

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quote:

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“….. where society deems it wrong for sex in that context to occur, this group is banned from sexual union.”

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Laura:
Fish, I recommend that you a) not use anecdotal evidence to support your statement on the causality of homosexuality and b) if you cite "evidence" as above, you give some of it here, so that we can see it. I have seen no credible evidence, in all my years of reading articles about such things, that homosexuality is caused by indifferent or absent fathering. If this were so, large sections of the inner-cities in my country would be overrun with all the gay boys who have no fathers at all, and are being raised in many cases, by extended female-only families. The bad effects of absent poor fathers have been widely observed and commented upon, crime and teenage pregnancy, but an increase in homosexuality has not been one of the observed sequela.

In fact, oddly enough, the only place I've read of this alleged correlation is in conservative religious literature; never supported by any clinical evidence. And as we all know, correlation is not causation. Many people straight and gay, have had absent fathers and overprotective mothers. So it cannot be surprising that a certain number of gays will report this.

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quote:

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...which is completely unacceptable.

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Posted                       

quote:

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We hear little of this sort of work as some in the gay lobby has made discussion of the causes of homosexuality (other than genetic) a taboo subject.

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Hoo boy

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Formerly Molly Brown