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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Homophobia: the meaning and use of the word (Page 6)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Homophobia: the meaning and use of the word
Timothy the Obscure

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# 292

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The research on the causes of homosexuality (or heterosexuality, for that matter) is still very much in its early stages. I don't think any serious scientist would claim to have the complete answer, and most would say it's probably a complex interaction of biological, cultural, and psychosocial factors. There is some evidence from animal studies of genetic factors, but animal studies can only be suggestive for humans, whose sexuality is much more complex. There are cases of identical twins with differing sexual orientations, so it can't be a simple genetic on/off switch. And gender identity is a different thing altogether--the mouse study cited was more relevant to that than to sexual object choice (consider the phenomenon of transexual lesbians--people born biologically male who identify as female and are attracted to women--there are enough of them that they have recently become a bit controversial in the lesbian community).

I don't like medicalizing moral issues, which is why I don't care for the word "homophobia." It doesn't make the moral questions go away, it just pushes them into the background. (A bit of tit for tat, of course--gay people having been labeled both mentally ill and immoral for so long, how could they resist turning the tables?)

The DSM-IV (not my favorite book, but...) defines "phobia" as "a marked, persistent, and excessive or unreasonable fear when in the presence of, or when anticipating an encounter with, a specific object or situation." It also notes that "adults with this disorder recognize that the phobia is excessive or unreasonable" (otherwise it may be a delusional disorder). Some people with strong anti-gay attitudes do have that--for example, being unable to enter a gay bar to use the rest room or pay phone because of their fear--but certainly not all. I don't think most people who believe homosexual relationships are inherently immoral are mentally ill--I just think they're wrong.

I'd kind of like to distinguish between the belief that homosexual acts are sinful and the belief that homosexuals should not be protected from discrimination in housing, employment, and domestic law (marriage/civil unions). The former is just an opinion--the latter involves active discrimination and so is a moral problem in itself. After all, there are people who believe that oral sex between heterosexual spouses is immoral, but they aren't saying my wife and I should be treated differently from other couples because we engage in it--or that our marriage shouldn't count as a marriage if that were the only kind of sex we ever had.

That said, "homophobia" is the most recognizable word we have, and I do use it (even if I wince as I do). I like "heterosexism" better, but don't use it as much.

Timothy

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Kyralessa
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# 4568

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quote:
Originally posted by La Sal:
Fish Fish said:

quote:
We hear little of this sort of work as some in the gay lobby has made discussion of the causes of homosexuality (other than genetic) a taboo subject.
Hoo boy [Roll Eyes]
I see your "Hoo boy [Roll Eyes] " and raise you an "Oh, geez [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] ".

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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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<ewwwww>

<holds nose tight>

There is a big sbelly rottig corpse with hooves subwhere roud here!

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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CorgiGreta
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# 443

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How to be a homophobe:

Lesson one........

Greta

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Laura
General nuisance
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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
http://hawebpage.truepath.com/book/more/Moberly.html is one book I have read which is a thorough phsycholical study of the phenomia I have described. We hear little of this sort of work as some in the gay lobby has made discussion of the causes of homosexuality (other than genetic) a taboo subject.

The "gay lobby". I work quite near Capitol Hill and I've never seen the gay lobby headquarters! Where is it? Is it salmon-colored, with little throw-cushions everywhere?

And I'm sure that book is a thorough (and I'm certain, totally unslanted) "phsycholical" study of these "phenomia", whatever the hell these words mean. It would really help the anti-gay lobby if more of them could spell.

When I said "evidence," I meant "evidence", not self-serving twaddle from a psychologist peddling as "new" a very old theory about the origins of homosexuality, in service of a conservative Christian ethic. You actually read this thing?

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Fish Fish
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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
The "gay lobby". I work quite near Capitol Hill and I've never seen the gay lobby headquarters! Where is it? Is it salmon-colored, with little throw-cushions everywhere?

Sorry - gay lobby was perhaps a rather crass shorthand. But the agenda is real enough.


quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
It would really help the anti-gay lobby if more of them could spell.

Thank you for being dislexaphobic!


quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
When I said "evidence," I meant "evidence", not self-serving twaddle from a psychologist peddling as "new" a very old theory about the origins of homosexuality, in service of a conservative Christian ethic. You actually read this thing?

As I said, this debate has become taboo!

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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quote:
Sorry - gay lobby was perhaps a rather crass shorthand. But the agenda is real enough.

why of course it is! and here it is:

gay agenda.

[Big Grin]

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Sine Nomine*

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Just thought I'd check my new sig down here rather than in the Styx.
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Fish Fish
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# 5448

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
quote:
Sorry - gay lobby was perhaps a rather crass shorthand. But the agenda is real enough.

why of course it is! and here it is:

gay agenda.

[Big Grin]

Brilliant!

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
When I said "evidence," I meant "evidence", not self-serving twaddle from a psychologist peddling as "new" a very old theory about the origins of homosexuality, in service of a conservative Christian ethic. You actually read this thing?

As I said, this debate has become taboo!
Aha! You're not dyslexic, you just can't read! I asked you to support your point with non-biased evidence, and you read that as "this debate is taboo". It isn't. It may be a bit boring, but it isn't taboo. In fact, there has been a great deal of research by all sorts of people over the last century regarding the origins of homosexuality. You just don't appear interested in the parts of it that might contradict your viewpoint. And that's how we get bad science!

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Laura
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Sine: good sig.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Fish Fish
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# 5448

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Aha! You're not dyslexic, you just can't read!

Blast! Been found out as a non-dyselxic. How did you do it Holmes?

quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
In fact, there has been a great deal of research by all sorts of people over the last century regarding the origins of homosexuality. You just don't appear interested in the parts of it that might contradict your viewpoint. And that's how we get bad science!

Actually, I am interested in all the causes. And I agree, there are probably many. Thats why I said origionally...

"I would never call homosexuality a mental illness. However, the evidence I have read, and from personal observation, would suggest (and I can only speak of male homosexuality), that very very often there is a connection between an emotionall absent / unloving / or even abusive father during formative years, and homosexual feelings. I am sure this statement will cause a storm of protest - but in my observation, its remarkable how often gay men describe their father's in these terms.

Now there may be genetic causes as well. I don't think anyone knows yet. The liklihood seems to be a combination of causes. But even if the whole cause is genetic, that in itself is not a reason to change Christian teaching on morality. We are more than genetically determined creatures. (Animals!) We are also moral creatures with choice. "

So I am genuinely interested in all the causes - but I was just raising attention to one view, which I find convincing.

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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FishFish:
quote:
Society today says Rape and Paedophilia are completely unacceptable - but other societies don't.
Offhand I can't think of any socities that condone Rape or Paedophilia. Could you give some examples?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Fish Fish
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# 5448

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quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
FishFish:
quote:
Society today says Rape and Paedophilia are completely unacceptable - but other societies don't.
Offhand I can't think of any socities that condone Rape or Paedophilia. Could you give some examples?
Historically...

With regards rape, (and I'm not certain here, so up front appologies for error!), but wasn't rape within marriage not rape until recently?

My stronger case is for Paedaphila which I believe was vertaully enshrined in Roman civilisation - each "society" man was encouraged or expected to have his "boy". (I'm no expert on ancient Rome, so no doubt someone will know more details).

I guess the point is, whatever is abhorant today may be accepted, legal, or even promoted tomorrow. That strikes me as no way to conduct our morality.

Interestingly, I did hear that the Gay Lobby group Outrage wanted the age of consent for all people lowered to 14. This seems to be the case (Consetn at 14). Though, of course, they would not claim to be Christians at all. But, could this be and example a campaign to change our views of children's sexuality, and thus legalising what we now define as paedophilia?

(This is not meant to be a cheap shot back on the paedophilia/gay analogy. I quote this not cos its a gay article, but because its the only time I've heard of any people, of whatever sexuality, wanting to lower the age of consent to below 16. I'm quoting it to show how easily society could shift in its views on paedophilia. Disturbing!)

[Edited URL UBB. Do try that URL button...]

[ 31. January 2004, 01:02: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but fish fish, what planet are you living on? 13 and 14-year-olds are having sex with their same age or slightly older partner all the time. You would prosecute them? My 13-year-old friend was caught by her mother in flagrante with her 16-year-old boyfriend. Now, I don't think it was a good idea, but she's not unusual at all.

And go back not too far into history, even in England and America, and it was not unusual for 12 year olds to be heterosexually married. Certainly in the Middle Ages through to the Victorian age marriages were consummated with very young girls (I'm assuming it was true in earlier periods - Mary was probably in her early teens). The whole notion of childhood has completely changed in the latter part of the 20th century, which is not entirely a bad thing. But you have to remember that children as young as five were down coal mines in the very near past or spinning cotton, or harvesting crops or working as domestics. You can hardly call that childhood.

Or is it only anal sex you're worried about? Well, let me tell you - I have heard horror stories from young Christians who have had what I now term "Christian" sex - it didn't involve vaginal penetration, but it went everywhere else, and so the kids still called themselves virgins. The boys thought it was great, the girls hated it. That is just plain mad, and if we are getting back to linguistics, try explaining that one.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272

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quote:
Mary was probably in her early teens

I've heard this many times - anyone got any evidence for it?

I've nothing further to say on the parallel or otherwise between paedophilia and homosexuality. I guess it's proof that I've been on the ship too long when the same argument comes round again..... [Frown]

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Louise
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# 30

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Moberly is one of the main theorists of the discredited theory of 'reparative therapy' which was discussed at length as cruel, damaging and having no reputable scientific basis on the Dead Horses thread which I assume Fish Fish hasn't read.

However as FF has raised it here I will add a reply here.

It might interest people to see an assessment of Elizabeth Moberly's research qualifications and methodology by Jeffry Ford the psychologist who was instrumental in introducing her to the US who was initially an enthusiastic participant in the ex-gay ministries based on her theories until he saw that they damaged people and didn't work.

This is his homepage and this is the essay on Moberly and 'Reparative Therapy'


Some highlights:

quote:
The term "reparative therapy" seems to be a catch-all phrase for therapy intended to heal or prevent homosexuality. Its roots stem back to the work of a British theologian and self proclaimed psychologist, Elizabeth Moberly. Moberly wrote a couple of books in the early 1980's that the early "ex-gay" movement found very intriguing. By far the most readable but not the easiest book was titled Homosexuality: A New Christian Ethic. Her "research" involved no subjects! She simply did an extensive literature review of the outdated works of: Irving Bieber, Lawrence Hatterer, and Sigmond Freud and came up with a relatively minor reinterpretation of their findings.
quote:
I liked Elizabeth Moberly. I was instrumental in bringing her over to the US to do
conferences in Minneapolis and Seattle. She stayed with my wife and me. I learned that
my good natured teasing helped this shy, reserved woman to open up and allow her vulnerability and humanness to emerge. Very much an academic, she read her presentations word for word during an entire weekend long conference. She sounded
intellectual and made quite a convincing case for "reparative therapy". When asked how
many clients she had treated, she admitted she had seen none. When asked about her "research" she honestly reported she had done no new research. Elizabeth was a philosopher more than a psychologist. Her challenge at the time was for "ex-gay" ministries to take her unsupported theory and implement it. And implement it we did!

You can read his own story of what it did to him and those around him and what he went through

here and here

May I suggest that if people want to discuss stuff like the origins of homosexuality and the discredited notion that it can be 'cured' that we take it back off to the Dead horses thread where it belongs?

Louise

PS The age of consent thing, at least half a dozen European countries have 14 as the age of consent including the Austrians, the Germans and the Hungarians, some have 12, presumably then that makes them all perves for agreeing with Peter Tatchell on something? Paedophilia strictly defined is wanting to have intercourse with pre-pubescent children - all these ages of consent deal with post-pubescents. There certainly have been many many societies which have allowed young adolescents to contract and consummate marriages or to have sexual relationships from about age 12, but it's rare for sex with under 12s to be sanctioned. Even if you're talking about royal child dynastic marriages these weren't expected to be consummated until the girl was 12 or over. Greek male-male erotic relationships were certainly not for under 12s. Typically the eromenos in an erastes/eromenos relationship would be aged around 16-20. The erastes would be 20 or over, but this is all completely bloody irrelevant as to whether discrimination against gay people is A-OK or not.

The basis for not discriminating against gay people is that they're harming nobody and it's none of our business. It's for much the same reason as we now no longer go around threatening people with execution or penal laws on the basis of their religion. Having seen what persecution has done and having seen that these people are not harming us, we now do not sanction discrimination against dissenters, catholics, gay people, women and lots of other people whom our ancestors were happy to maltreat, and thank God for it.

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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Fish Fish
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# 5448

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Thank you Louise for clarifying my understanding on Elizabeth Moberly - its a number of years since I read her book, and I hadn't heard these criticisms. Nor had I realised she was associated with the "ex-gay" ministries, which I understand are damaging, and promise more than they can ever deliver. So I'm sorry for bringing her name into the fray.

(n.b. the ministry I have been mentioning on this thread, www.truefreedomtrust.co.uk , is decidely NOT an "ex-gay" ministry in that it doesn't offer or promise any change in sexual orientation - it simply offers support to people who are both convinced of the Bible's prohibition of extra-marital sex, and seek solace and friendship and support in living out the single lifestyle. They do an excellent, quiet job. God bless them in their ministry)

And I agree, the age of consent is a red herring (I appologise for chucking it in - it just seemed to follow from the question I tried to answer on paedophilia - of which I said I knew little, and that fact was so succinctly proved to be the case by you!!!) Its a red herring, for age is not a factor when you are either agreeeing or disagreeing with sex outside marriage.

So - I'm happy to admit ignorance and red-herring tendancies on a few issues tonight. So, thanks for teaching me. Its good to learn!

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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...

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Louise
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# 30

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/tangent

cheers Fish Fish,

BTW the big homosexuality Dead Horses thread is 30 pages long but it has some extremely interesting stuff on it - so it actually is well worth a browse - we've been grappling with these discussions on the board for quite a long time from a large variety of perspectives.

However there is also another much shorter Dead Horse thread on the subject:

Living as a Christian Homosexual which you might find interesting too - it does mention the TFT, if I recall, and similar groups.

L.

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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Scot

Deck hand
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What I want to know is when did you lot get your own lobby? Do you think you're to good to wait in the main lobby with the rest of us?

Mark my words - no good can come of this. Next thing we know, the gays are going to have their own foyers and entryways also.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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Posted by Laura:
quote:
The "gay lobby". I work quite near Capitol Hill and I've never seen the gay lobby headquarters! Where is it? Is it salmon-colored, with little throw-cushions everywhere?
That does it! I am sooo annoyed now!! Will you people realise once and for all -
throw cushions are SO late '80s!!!

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
throw cushions are SO late '80s!!!

Not if they're needlepoint and have little mottos like "Never complain. Never explain" on them. That's very Elsie de Wolfe, and as such, classic.

As dear Elsie said when she first saw the Parthenon: "It's my color! Beige."

Historical note: Elsie de Wolfe virtually invented interior decoration as a career, giving employment to many otherwise unemployable homosexuals. Which was only fair since she was a lesbian herself. In fact, when in her sixties she married Sir Charles Mendl for social reasons, society was shocked that she had abandoned her partner of many years, the literary agent (for P.G. Wodehouse, among others) Elizabeth Marbury.

She also is credited with inventing the blue rinse. So she has a lot to answer for, one way or another.

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CorgiGreta
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# 443

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I don't know about throw cushions, but surely a gay lobby would have a gay credenza.

Greta

[ 30. January 2004, 20:51: Message edited by: CorgiGreta ]

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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Surely you meant a console table with a girandole above it?
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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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And here's a lovely one now...
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

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What a tacky looking mirror!
I'd prefer something more in the arts and crafts style.

Sieg

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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443

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A homophobe is someone who would never pay $11,500 for a mirror and who wouldn't have the taste to put a few flattering candles around it.

Greta

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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[Hot and Hormonal] After I found the link, I actually looked at the price.

Hey! Antique stores in Alexandria have pretty good prices sometimes. I've got relatives there.

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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I'd prefer something more in the arts and crafts style.

Well you go right ahead. That leaves more gilt for me.
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