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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Conservative Evangelical Anglican student church plant in Manchester
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Does make their whole project rather pointless though - if folk're saved through God's predestination only, then God's just as capable of irresistably drawing them through the existing churches as through a new one.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I think Calvin answered that one in his Institutes
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lisa C
Apprentice
# 5051
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie:
I should explain my previous post. This plant is next door (literally) to a thriving Anglican Congregation. That is though parkland seperates Platt Chapel from Holy Trinity, Platt, they are next door neighbours. Holy Trinitiy Platt is actually nearest buildings to Platt Chapel along Wilmslow Road.
Holy Trinity Platt is a big evangelical church. For those whose memories goes back to the 1960s or 1970s its the evangelical church in Manchester Cliff Richard attended.
Jengie
Im fact, Holy Trinity Platt have just started having two (rather than one) services on a Sunday morning!
Furthermore, on a historical note, Holy Trinity Platt was built and given the name "Holy Trinity" in the nineteenth century because Platt Chapel had become Unitarian.
Posts: 8 | From: Too far south! | Registered: Oct 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I think Calvin answered that one in his Institutes
But to whose satisfaction? Not mine, certainly. The whole thing ends up as a charade. But this is most certainly off topic.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Black Labrador
Shipmate
# 3098
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Posted
I couldn´t sign the DB and so wouldn´t join this church.
BUT if there is no comparative congregation why shouldn´t they set one up? They won´t force people to go there. Talk of ´poaching´is nonsense, it implies churches own people. They don´t - people can choose which church they want to attend.
Posts: 629 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Poaching is missing the point.
Why are they setting up a evangelical Anglican Church right on the door step of a sucessful evangelical Anglican Church?
Holy Trinity Platt does reach the students. Long standing middle of the road evangelical, not particularly charisimatic.
Yes Holy Trinity Platt probably could do with more accommodation and more workers to deal with its sucess.
Why are they not doing it either in Didsbury where Manchester Metropolitan University is situated (all right two good anglicans but not so student orientated), Salford for University of Salford or more city centre again for MMU and UMIST?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ponty'n'pop
Shipmate
# 5198
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Posted
quote:
Why are they setting up a evangelical Anglican Church right on the door step of a sucessful evangelical Anglican Church?
Having read this thread purely out of interest I'm tempted to email the leadership team with this exact question. I suspect that it would tactfully make reference to what the new Church stands for without telling us a) what is specifically different and b) why that difference is so vitally important.
Better if a Mancunian made that enquiry though.
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"....creeping around a cow shed at 2 o'clock in the morning. That doesn't sound very wise to me"
Posts: 236 | From: South Wales | Registered: Nov 2003
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ponty'n'pop:
quote:
Why are they setting up a evangelical Anglican Church right on the door step of a sucessful evangelical Anglican Church?
Having read this thread purely out of interest I'm tempted to email the leadership team with this exact question. I suspect that it would tactfully make reference to what the new Church stands for without telling us a) what is specifically different and b) why that difference is so vitally important.
Better if a Mancunian made that enquiry though.
Is anyone in Manchester willing to do this for us please?
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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Viola
Administrator
# 20
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Posted
I'm not a Mancunian, but by a strange coincidence, I spent New Year with two of the Plant's leadership team. Friends of friends - you know how it is.
From the (very brief) conversation I had about it (purely in an interested, small talk kind of way) I got the impression that other churches / ministries in the area were being fully communicated with. I will e-mail my contacts on behalf of you all and see if they would like to comment on this thread!
K.
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"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010
Posts: 4345 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001
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Never Conforming
Aspiring to Something
# 4054
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Posted
Is the communication both ways tho? Are they *really* listening to the others around them? Communication isn't just telling them what is going on. Are they being restricted from proper communication by the DB?
I can't really see that their communications would be very affirmative. I'm sure the other churches and Anglicans in the area would just *love* to have this weed in their back garden. I'm sorry, I just can't see it. There are already provisions from the Anglican Church in Manchester (Chaplains and churches) and conservative Bible Believing Evangelical churches.
Anyway, it would be interesting to hear what they have to say, if they are willing to join the discussion.
Jo
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I used to poison Student Minds™ and am proud to have done so
Never Conforming in the Surreal World
Posts: 1419 | From: Oop Norf | Registered: Feb 2003
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dorcas
Ship's florist
# 4775
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Posted
I've just checked out their website again (see first message in this thread for link) and it has been updated because of this thread on SoF!!
According to their Latest News page, The Plant is being set up a) with the blessing of Holy Trinity Platt and b) because local churches aren't doing enough for students.
Hmm...
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"I love large women - they supply warmth in the winter and shade in the summer!" (With thanks to Gort!)
Posts: 387 | From: The Curry Mile, Manchester | Registered: Jul 2003
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dorcas:
I've just checked out their website again (see first message in this thread for link) and it has been updated because of this thread on SoF!!
According to their Latest News page, The Plant is being set up a) with the blessing of Holy Trinity Platt and b) because local churches aren't doing enough for students.
Hmm...
Mmm - it's a bit juicy!
quote:
We are aware that there has been some discussion of The Plant (based on the content of www.theplant.net ) on an internet message board and issues have been raised based on the assumption that we are critical of the ministry of other churches working with students in Manchester, and in particular Holy Trinity, Platt.
More here
Pax,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Hang on. Are they telling us they are a church plant coming out of HT Platt itself? And if they are, what the *gottabecareful,thisispurgatory* is HT Platt doing ascribing to the beliefs of the northwestpartnership (instead of the Anglican system of Scripture and the Catholic Creeds, supported by the Prayer Book)?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
I wrote to the Bishop of Manchester expressing concern over this. He did not know about this venture till someone showed him the website last Sunday, so the claim that they are in discussion with him is nonesense.
This may mean their claims about setting up this plany with Platt's blessing is also inaccurate.
they have certainly not circulated news of the plant to local chuch leaders as they claim - my friend who is vicar of two other south manchester churches near the university has heard nothing about it.
Oh but then she's a woman minister....
And the oganisers' idea of 'discussion' appears to be simply presenting people with a fait accompli.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Calvin
Shipmate
# 271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
I wrote to the Bishop of Manchester expressing concern over this. He did not know about this venture till someone showed him the website last Sunday, so the claim that they are in discussion with him is nonesense.
This may mean their claims about setting up this plany with Platt's blessing is also inaccurate.
they have certainly not circulated news of the plant to local chuch leaders as they claim - my friend who is vicar of two other south manchester churches near the university has heard nothing about it.
Oh but then she's a woman minister....
And the oganisers' idea of 'discussion' appears to be simply presenting people with a fait accompli.
Is it possible that they are in discussion with the diocese and these had not reached the bishop ?
It is a gigantic leap to say that because the bishop didn't know about The Plant they are lying about the support of HT Platt.
Where did they claim to have circulated the news to the local churches ?
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A crash reduces
Your expensive computer
To a simple stone.
Posts: 305 | From: Here and Now | Registered: May 2001
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
It says it here The Plant
on their prayer request list.
And how can you be in discussion with the diocese without telling a bishop? (None of whom in Manchester were told).
By the way, I did not say they were lying - I think this lot are naive and disorganized / ungracious!
[Edited for link UBB.]
[ 10. January 2004, 03:34: Message edited by: Tortuf ]
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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dorcas
Ship's florist
# 4775
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Posted
Hmm...
As Alice said - "curiouser and curiouser"...
I wonder who owns Platt Chapel?
Possibly Cross Street Unitarian Chapel in Manchester city centre (where Mrs Gaskell's hubby was once Minister!)
According to the website, The Plant is being announced this week..but it doesn't say where!
It seems strange that someone who lives a few minutes' walk from Platt Chapel should only have heard about this on the Ship!
I shall take a walk past the chapel on Sunday...as someone pointed out earlier, the Manchester Photographic Society meets there, as does a Dance School...perhaps there will be some new adverts on the red brick??
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"I love large women - they supply warmth in the winter and shade in the summer!" (With thanks to Gort!)
Posts: 387 | From: The Curry Mile, Manchester | Registered: Jul 2003
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
Being 'in discussion with the Diocese' could mean anything from speaking to the Bishop to emailing a local vicar, but until the Bishop agrees, it won't go anywhere. This could be plain naivete on their part, the C of E is notably full of 'grey areas'.
Their contact with local churches could be simlarly informal to the point of invisibility.
I do think it is unlikely that the Diocese will adopt a fully formed church in the circumstances outlined, even the notorious Nine O Clock Service started from an existing C of E church.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
I think discussion here is a misnomer. They have not, for example, said to the bishop "We've got this great idea for mission - will you back it?"
The whole tone of this exercise is that they think they knbow best and expect the diocese to be grateful for their bounty!
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Viola
Administrator
# 20
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Posted
As promised, I e-mailed Phil Keymer, who I met over the New Year holiday. Due to various factors, including time pressures, he is unable to 'be here in person', but has written a response to this thread which I will post immediately after this one.
On a personal note, I started to compose my own response to all this yesterday, getting as far as compiling a list of the actual objections to The Plant. When I kept coming across words to the effect of 'there are already churches in Manchester which welcome students', 'I don't agree with their doctrinal basis', 'they are married', 'they are neat and clean'; along with a stack of speculative assumptions, I decided I was clearly too naiive to understand what the fuss was about and couldn't be bothered!
Oh - and Cosmo - your description of a 'loathsome group of exclusivists' is sailing pretty close to the edges of Commandment 3, but as I'm posting in a non-admin role I'll let that pass for now.
Anyway - for the official update, read on...
K.
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"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010
Posts: 4345 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001
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Viola
Administrator
# 20
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Posted
Here is the text of an e-mail which I received this morning:
quote:
My name is Phil Keymer, and I will be one of the ministers of The Plant when it starts meeting later this year. We have been disappointed to read in this thread a great deal of misunderstanding at our purpose in setting up The Plant, and the processes involved in doing so. Because of the seriousness of some of the accusations, we feel we need to set the record straight with the following points:
First, there has clearly been a misunderstanding somewhere along the line in Charles Read’s communication with the Bishop of Manchester: Nigel McCulloch was informed of our provisional plans many months ago, and delegated discussion to his suffragan bishops under the auspices of the Diocesan Board of Education. We have therefore had meetings with the Bishops of Bolton, Hulme and Middleton; as well as the university chaplains; Hulme Area Dean; ecumenical representatives; and chair of the Board of Education. The Area Dean consulted the members of the Hulme Deanery Chapter (the local Anglican ministers) on behalf of the diocese and us. Local non-Anglican churches have been sounded out by phone and email. Our project has been discussed on two occasions at the Bishop’s senior staff meeting, at which we presume Bishop Nigel was present. (He may not have been aware that we are calling ourselves “The Plant” – perhaps that explains the confusion?) Because The Plant is not the product of any one church or parachurch organisation, we are seeking a system of accountability, primarily from the Diocese of Manchester.
Secondly, there seems to be an assumption that any new church must be set up in opposition to existing churches ministering in the same area. Judging by the (thus far) positive responses we have had from non-Anglican churches, this appears to be an Anglican assumption. As we have explained on www.theplant.net, we are not suggesting that other churches are not proclaiming the gospel to students, but that the sheer numbers of students merit further evangelistic initiatives. We believe that, God willing, more evangelism means more people coming to know and love our Lord Jesus Christ. We assumed that our brothers and sisters in Christ would think this a good thing!
Regarding Holy Trinity Platt, I quote from the ‘Latest News’ section of our website (www.theplant.net/3189):
"In the specific case of Holy Trinity Platt, we have great respect for their ministry among students and others. John and Flick Hindley (two of The Plant's leadership team) have been members of the evening congregation at Holy Trinity for the past two and a half years and are personally grateful for the teaching and ministry they have received. We have also worked closely with Tony Porter, the Rector of Holy Trinity, throughout the planning for The Plant, and we are very grateful for his active support and encouragement."
As we say on the website, Platt Chapel is one of a number of possible meeting venues (www.theplant.net/2482). Because The Plant will be seeking to reach certain groups within the community, our geographical location will not be as significant as is usually is for other Anglican churches.
We hope that these comments have helped to clarify issues. Just to be clear, we don’t plan to enter into further discussion on this message board. If you would like to keep up to date with the progress of The Plant, please keep an eye on www.theplant.net.
Finally, we have been quite distressed by the tone of many of the posts in this discussion. Innuendo, mistrust, cynical reading-between-the-lines, and assumptions of the worst do not strike us as a very Christian manner of debate.
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"If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"Commandment number one: shut the hell up." Erin Etheredge 1971-2010
Posts: 4345 | From: West of England | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
It is a shame that there focus is on starting a new church since statistics show that this only leads to competition over a limited resource (people). In other words most people going to the plant will be people who would have gone elsewhere.
It would be far better to work with an existing church organisation (CU/church) so as to enhance their ministry since is more likely to lead to real growth in numbers.
I may be uncertain but one of the people who was a member of Holy trinity Platt was also a 'minister' in Bolton which seems strange.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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merseyaardvark
Apprentice
# 5398
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Posted
As one of the team at a church plant in Liverpool not dissimilar to The Plant (though not Anglican) I've been really surprised by the discussions here.
As I understand it there are 80,000 students in Manchester. At present maybe 2,000 regularly attend any kind of Christian activity or meeting. Does anyone really believe there is no space for The Plant to work in that context or that their agenda is to poach people? I'm certain their agenda is to see people who are currently nowhere near any church come to hear Bible teaching and have Christian fellowship.
Sure they'll need some people who are already Christians to get started. Sure there are some people contributing to this board who have different views to The Plant's leaders on, say, predestination. But I would have thought anyone who was genuinely gospel-hearted would welcome more workers in the harvest field?
Since we started in Liverpool in September two other groups have planted churches in the city centre. Both are more charismatic than our church and we wouldn't agree with them about everything - not they us, I'm sure. But we are delighted that Christian people are taking an interest in the area and seeking to do evangelism here. It's not like our cities are exactly overrun with Christians...
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Aardvark
Posts: 1 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jan 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by merseyaardvark:
I'm certain their agenda is to see people who are currently nowhere near any church come to hear Bible teaching and have Christian fellowship.
I don't doubt it. I don't think anyone doubts the sincerity of what they are aiming to do. The problem is that many of us have seen similar things before and things can very easily turn out differently than intended.
I mentioned before that a church set up a student ministry while I was at university, I'll use that as an example. This new society was doctrinally indistinguishable from the CU, though much more charismatic than the average for the CU. The new group started up in May, just after the exams, the church itself not many months before that. A few of those involved in setting up the group were not, to our knowledge, involved in other student groups (though they were active in the church of course) - but most of them were CU members. At Freshers Fair there was clearly a lot of confusion among first years as to which group to join. The result of all this? A CU deprived of many members struggling to do anything (especially in the Hall based Bible Studies), a good deal of acrimony from us as we saw members poached into another group (maybe that was our fault for being upset, but nevertheless we didn't have the number of people involved in outreach nor the numbers involved to find our replacements in leadership of the CU).
The result of a church setting up a student ministry seperate from the CU? Our experience was a reduced witness, a CU struggling to continue (the churches ministry didn't have this problem as they weren't having to take leaders from the student group), a lot of confusion among Christian students, and a witness to other students of evangelical in-fighting rather than the gospel. To my knowledge the whole sorry incident (that was solved eventually, after about a year, by the church deciding to stop its student ministry and encourage students who attended that church to be involved in CU - effectively the same arrangement as the other local evangelical churches) resulted in no Christian who wasn't involved in anything joining a group or church nor any non-Christian being converted ... in fact I wouldn't at all be surprised if some people who'd been attending church at home were driven off by the whole mess.
I'm not saying that that will happen with other groups, but my experience is that evangelical churches setting up student ministries does more harm. Far, far better for church plants to support and work within and through existing churches and CUs.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
I'm sorry to read about Alan's bad experience, but there is an important difference between that and the Plant. The Plant is not going to set up anything in competition to the Manchester CUs. Indeed, one of the leaders is a CU worker and another, I believe, is a CU President!
Even if Alan's experience were similar I think it would be a great shame if one bad experience in the past put us off doing evangelism in the future.
The fact is that there are so many students in Manchester that if revival broke out (and that's what we are praying for, isn't it?) there wouldn't be room for them all in the churches.
I'm sure that there is room for one more church in Manchester . . . .
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
Posts: 74 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
When churches start bursting at the seams such that new congregations are needed then I doubt there would be a lot of debate. The question is, is another church at this stage needed or helpful?
I'm glad to hear that this new initiative is working with the CUs. I gathered from what I'd read that they were aiming specifically at student involvement to a level greater than would be normal expected at another evangelical church without a specific student ministry, the extent of be a defacto student group running in parallel to the CU. My preference is that within a CU it doesn't really matter which church people attend ... this sort of set up has the danger of formalising a seperate grouping associated with a particular church (and, I know, it's only normal for those who attend the same church to be closer). The concept of a single church that gets known as the "CU church" appalls me (and I know that that is almost certainly not the intention, but when a large proportion of CU leadership goes to a single church that is the effect).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Clearly Phil Keymer has not communicated effectively with the bishops in Manchester diocese, for +Nigel wrote to me:
"only last night my attention was directed
to this particular web-site. In one way or another, all the bishops in this
diocese have a reason for concern over this"
and the rest of his email implies they have not duiscussed this before and are doing so on Monday.
As for the matter being discussed at Chapter, again I am led to believe by a member of that group that it has not been discussed there.
As for hiding behind the 'plenty of room for another church' argument,
1. the Plant is not thinking out the ecclesuiology of what they are doing
2. there are plenty of parts of the NW where extra Christian work is needed - student ministry is well covered and can be expanded to cope with the great revival we seek.
I remain unconvinced that we are getting the whole story - and again I remind people we've seen much the same thing in Durham this year.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
I think that Holy Trinity, Platt, is pretty much bursting at the seams: Lisa C stated on this thread that Platt has just started a second morning congregations. No wonder Tony Porter (vicar of Platt) is so supportive; the Plant will probably give him a much needed breathing space . . . .
The Plant team certainly aren't going to be insisting that everyone from the Manchester CUs go to the Plant. It's just that Tony Porter has got plenty of non-student parishioners as well as students to deal with, and so would appreciate a hand with the students!
Big Dan
P. S. Great post, merseyaardvaark.
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
Posts: 74 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2004
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
Charles Read quotes the Bishop:
"only last night my attention was directed
to this particular web-site. In one way or another, all the bishops in this
diocese have a reason for concern over this"
The Web site has only recently been set up; the Bishop knew about the Plant long before the Web site was set up.
As far as I know, the Plant is still waiting for an official response from the Bishop. It is premature for anybody here to jump the gun and try to make his reply for him.
Why do you think, Charles, that `the Plant is not thinking out the ecclesuiology of what they are doing'? The ecclesiology seems to me simple: there aren't enough churches in Manchester for all the people that live there, so why not try to meet that need? I agree that there are `plenty of parts of the NW where extra Christian work is needed'. But why then aren't people busy trying to get work sorted in these other areas rather than spending their time criticizing those that are trying to meet the needs of the city?
You say `student ministry is well covered' --- well, that apparently wasn't Tony Porter's view, since he welcomed a helping hand with them! I agree that student ministry `can be expanded to cope with the great revival we seek' -- the Plant is part of this expansion.
Big Dan
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
Posts: 74 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Charles Read: As a former Durham student I am fascinated at the turn of events at Claypath. When I first arrived in Durham it was St Nic's that was meeting in the Town Hall!
There seem to be two distinct issues being debated here.
One is how an Anglican congregation can set itself up within the parish boundaries of another Anglican congregation. Now maybe I'm a bit out of touch, but that doesn't seem to be very ecclesiologically thought out now, does it?
The other is the interaction between non-church student groups and student-oriented churches or congregations. I have lived both sides of this question. I was very cross in Durham when as a CU rep I discovered a local church had put up flyers in my college advertising their meetings without liaising at all with us. But then later in life I discovered that the CU advisory committee was, if memory serves, entirely or almost entirely made up of evangelical Anglicans and that a strong case could be made for it being described as primarily a recruiting ground for evangelical Anglican vicars (see Alistair McGrath's biography of Jim Packer for evidence in support of this), which rather dimmed its appeal for this particular anabaptist.
In fact the second issue is an ecclesiological one too - are para-church movements theologically acceptable or not?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
I had dealing with a multi- denominational 'church' in our area with similar evangelistic aims. Accountability is major problem. Any organisation that deals witht he public has various statutory obligations to do with money, child protection, copyright compliance, food hygiene etc etc. The person with whom the buck stops is responsible for whatever goes wrong. In a denomination it is fairly clear who is ultimately responsible but in this kind of set up it is not.
If The Plant is already receiving money is it a registered charity, or a company, or planning to be? Who is the Child Protection Officer? Is it complying with disability legislation? Etc etc.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Jesse Telford:
Student congregations are a definitely not a good idea.
Ermmm - does this rather brave comment have any Biblical or sociological basis?
It has a doctrinal basis. Part of what we mean by the 'catholicity' of the Church is that it shows forth the all-encompassing nature of God's reconciling love. A church comprised solely of one subsection of the community seems inadequate in respect of this.
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insert amusing sig. here
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
Well - on DOD's logic, all those churches with no members except pensioners should be shut on the same grounds. Which might well be a good thing. Note of course that Anglican chaplaincies up and down the country already have congregations on the same basis - so those should go as well....
Which of course is the heart of this discussion; the perception in the evangelical community that what passes for the Christian chaplaincy at most universities is a self perpetuating clique of the liberal establishment - so an alternative has to be provided!
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Crash Test Christian
Shipmate
# 5313
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Posted
Sorry if this is an England/ CofE only discussion. I don't wish to sound like an other cocky Yankee.
But, I'll tell you how student churches and ministries survive in America. We have very little overhead. We use lecture halls for worship services and dormatories for Bible studies (free to student organizations...you spell it 'organisations' right?).
The church is by no means closed to the community. Many non-students make up a core of the membership. Others stay in the area after graduation and provide the maturity lacking in students.
The situation with students and available churches is probably different in Bloomington Illinois from Manchester. However, the need is the same for furthering the Gospel.
As for the Church supporting itself, The Northwest Partnership is most likly a missions organization and is prepared to finance the church indefinitely.
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Holding the button since Febuary 25, 2004.
Posts: 89 | From: the Road | Registered: Dec 2003
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
One is how an Anglican congregation can set itself up within the parish boundaries of another Anglican congregation. Now maybe I'm a bit out of touch, but that doesn't seem to be very ecclesiologically thought out now, does it?
The Plant is going to be set up within the boundaries of Holy Trinity, Platt, with HTP's explicit permission and blessing. Indeed, two of the Plant's founders currently worship at HTP. What's not `very ecclesiologically thought out' about that?
quote:
In fact the second issue is an ecclesiological one too - are para-church movements theologically acceptable or not?
The Plant is not a para-church movement. It is a church.
Big Dan
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
Posts: 74 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
The Plant is not a para-church movement. It is a church.
Indeed but it is seemingly trying to do two things fulfill the traditional role of the CU and be a local church. This is about showing more division in the body of Christ and I do not think this is a good thing.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Indeed but it is seemingly trying to do two things fulfill the traditional role of the CU and be a local church. This is about showing more division in the body of Christ and I do not think this is a good thing.
The Plant is not trying to fulfill the traditional role of the CU. It will not run any activities in competition with the CU. It is designed to be a church that will complement the CU by holding Sunday services and allowing students to be part of a more `catholic' community. (So in fact the Plant is not designed for just students; it's designed for anybody, but students will be the majority in its catchment area, so it seems reasonable to make special provision for them.)
It's also not designed to be in competition with local churches, specifically Holy Trinity, Platt, whose vicar is very supportive of the Plant. Of course it will be running Sunday services as will these other churches, but the Plant's services will be different in that they will be more student-orientated.
Big Dan
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
Posts: 74 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
the Plant's services will be different in that they will be more student-orientated.
Which is possibly where the question of ecclesiology comes in. What is a church? And, can a church that is student-orientated be healthy? In my opinion a church can not deliberately serve the needs of one part of a community to the exclusion of others and still be true to the calling of the Church and healthy - whether that be a church aimed towards students or OAPs. Part of the ministry of the Church is directed towards specific groups, but these ministries are called chaplaincies (or CU) not churches. I don't think it's helpful for students to exist in a cocoon, how do you expect students to get used to worshipping in a broader focussed church after graduation if they're in a student-oriented church while at university. IMO, CUs and/or chaplaincies should be providing student-specific activities and local churches integrating students within their normal structures.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
My deductions seem to be correct.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
In my opinion a church can not deliberately serve the needs of one part of a community to the exclusion of others and still be true to the calling of the Church and healthy - whether that be a church aimed towards students or OAPs. Part of the ministry of the Church is directed towards specific groups, but these ministries are called chaplaincies (or CU) not churches.
I agree, Alan, but the Plant is not intending to serve the needs of students `to the exclusion of others'. The Plant is seeking to integrate students into a church to which everyone is welcome. (So it's not like a CU, to which only students are welcome.) But, since students are the majority in its catchment area, it makes sense to make special provision for them, though not, as you say, to the exclusion of others.
Big Dan
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
My deductions seem to be correct.
Sorry, which deductions do you mean?
Big Dan
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Well - on DOD's logic, all those churches with no members except pensioners should be shut on the same grounds.
They should certainly feel challenged. However, there is a difference between closing down an already existing church and opening a new one. Also, as parish churches, the geriatric churches you castigate are formally open to all. They were not set up with the explicit purpose of catering to only one part of the community. All very uncatholic.
quote:
Which of course is the heart of this discussion; the perception in the evangelical community that what passes for the Christian chaplaincy at most universities is a self perpetuating clique of the liberal establishment - so an alternative has to be provided!
My university chaplain celebrated Mass, which was called that, on a regular basis, and I joined him in the daily recitation of the (Roman) office. Doesn't strike me as being very typical of the 'liberal establishment'. Could this possibly be another example of a fear-driven paranoid over-generalisation?
[ 11. January 2004, 12:26: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw-Dwarf ]
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insert amusing sig. here
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
Also, as parish churches, the geriatric churches you castigate are formally open to all. They were not set up with the explicit purpose of catering to only one part of the community. All very uncatholic.
The Plant is not set up with `the explicit purpose of catering to only one part of the community'. It is set up to cater to the community as a whole. Since the community round there is largely made up of students it makes sense to try especially hard to meet their needs without competing with organizations that are totally dedicated to students -- the CUs and chaplaincies.
Big Dan
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
Posts: 74 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
the Plant's services will be different in that they will be more student-orientated.
Which is possibly where the question of ecclesiology comes in. What is a church? And, can a church that is student-orientated be healthy? In my opinion a church can not deliberately serve the needs of one part of a community to the exclusion of others and still be true to the calling of the Church and healthy - whether that be a church aimed towards students or OAPs. Part of the ministry of the Church is directed towards specific groups, but these ministries are called chaplaincies (or CU) not churches. I don't think it's helpful for students to exist in a cocoon, how do you expect students to get used to worshipping in a broader focussed church after graduation if they're in a student-oriented church while at university. IMO, CUs and/or chaplaincies should be providing student-specific activities and local churches integrating students within their normal structures.
The realities of the geography of certain universities (e.g. Oxford where I was an undergraduate) is that the student population is focused in a single area, to the virtual exclusion of all other people from that area. The effect was that the only 'other' people attending the 'student' churches in the city centre were coming a long way in - with the effect that they were not attending their local church! A somewhat similar issue arises with the geography of Manchester; although there is some local housing in the area where 'The plant' will be meeting, a lot of that is Asian immigrant communities and a lot of the rest is student houses. As a result there is limited potential for mixing students into the wider community. Which is unfortunate - but is the nature of our society where travelling relatively long distances by historic standards is the norm - but not easily achievable for students without cars!
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
It looks like a breakaway group who object to the way the CofE is run and it's theology. They are setting up there own church in a place where they can get members to a new church. They are not going to the parts of the manchester conurbation which is really difficult like UPA estates.
Divisions splits setting up new churches is hardly a new concept but what is different is a hoping to get after the fact blessing from the CofE.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
If the Plant were an independent or free church setting up within what we might call the boundaries of the university, I wouldn't have an ecclesiological problem with it. But it is claiming, or at least aiming for, some kind of status in the eyes of the Anglican diocese of Manchester, and that raises some questions for me which neither the website, nor the contributions here, have so far answered:
(i) Properly speaking, the local student community falls within the parish of HTP only incidentally: the "cure of souls" lies with the Anglican University Chaplaincy. What input have they had here?
(ii) Are the Plant's ministers going to be licensed or otherwise accredited by the diocese of Manchester? If not, why not (if they want to be allied to the Anglican diocese)?
(iii) The question of oversight: to whom are the Plant's leaders responsible for their actions? To whom would a student go, for instance, if she or he wished to file a complaint against one of the leaders?
Until these questions are answered, I must continue in my suspicions that this is an initiative put forward by ultra-conservatives who are displeased with the mainstream Anglican ministry in the university and the surrounding area.
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
It looks like a breakaway group who object to the way the CofE is run and it's theology. They are setting up there own church in a place where they can get members to a new church. They are not going to the parts of the manchester conurbation which is really difficult like UPA estates.
Divisions splits setting up new churches is hardly a new concept but what is different is a hoping to get after the fact blessing from the CofE.
The leaders of the Plant are ordained C of E ministers, and wish to remain that way, so it's not true that the Plant is being set up because of objections to the way in which the C of E is run or to its theology.
There is already a team from St Mary's, Cheadle, working in the UPAs of Manchester. It is called `the Message' and spawned the band, the (World Wide Message) Tribe, and the Eden Projects in Manchester (recently featured in a TV documentary).
The Plant is not hoping to get an `after the fact blessing from the C of E'. It is hoping to get a before-the-fact blessing; the Plant is not yet `operational' and has yet to hold a service or meeting. (So it's also a bit premature for people to be asking whether they have a Child Protection Officer and whether they comply with disability legislation; these issues will, I'm sure, be addressed at the right time.)
Big Dan
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
Posts: 74 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Until these questions are answered, I must continue in my suspicions that this is an initiative put forward by ultra-conservatives who are displeased with the mainstream Anglican ministry in the university and the surrounding area.
The parent organisation (Northwest partnership) newsletter certainly has stuff aimed at stirring up pretty-uncompromising conservative lobbying in C of E congregations, which does raise a few questions about how they see the C of E and their role with regard to it.
L.
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Big Dan
Shipmate
# 5399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
(i) Properly speaking, the local student community falls within the parish of HTP only incidentally: the "cure of souls" lies with the Anglican University Chaplaincy. What input have they had here?
Phil Keymer said in his message to this board `We have therefore had meetings with the Bishops of Bolton, Hulme and Middleton; as well as the university chaplains'. But, as many participants on this board have said, the university chaplaincies are not churches (because not designed to be open to all---no meetings in vacation etc.), and so the Plant is not in competition with them.
quote:
(ii) Are the Plant's ministers going to be licensed or otherwise accredited by the diocese of Manchester? If not, why not (if they want to be allied to the Anglican diocese)?
As Phil Keymer also said in his e-mail `Because The Plant is not the product of any one church or parachurch organisation, we are seeking a system of accountability, primarily from the Diocese of Manchester.' Charles Read said that there is a diocesan meeting about it tomorrow. The Plant is waiting for a decision from the Bishop and the other diocesan decision-makers.
quote:
(iii) The question of oversight: to whom are the Plant's leaders responsible for their actions? To whom would a student go, for instance, if she or he wished to file a complaint against one of the leaders?
To the Bishop, if he agrees that the Plant be given an Anglican license. Whether he does or not, people can go to the leaders of the North West Partnership, of which the Plant is a part. There is a link on the Plant's Web site.
Big Dan
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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)
Posts: 74 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2004
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
(So it's also a bit premature for people to be asking whether they have a Child Protection Officer and whether they comply with disability legislation; these issues will, I'm sure, be addressed at the right time.)
The right time is at the planning stage. Lack of planning or 'not got round to it yet' is no defence against negligence in the eyes of the law.
Licensed Anglican ministers, lay or ordained, cannot operate within the C of E without a licence from the relevant Bishop, and if they choose to operate without a licence they certainly will not receive a blessing from the Dicoese. I wonder what are the licensing arrangements for the leaders?
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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