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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Conservative Evangelical Anglican student church plant in Manchester
Ender's Shadow
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Custard123 [Overused]

Weclome to the board - wonderful post!!!

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
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It was rather good...

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251

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Threeapprentices to welcome! Welcome Minister, Big Dan and Custard123 to the Ship of Fools and to Purgatory in particular. As a couple of posters have pointed out, the Ship is wider than this thread. Do have a look about the Ship and get the feel of the place. Purgatory is the Ship's civilised debate space so not everyone may agree with your views. However, it is the diversity and range of opinion on the Ship that keeps the place interesting.

Pleasant voyage!

Duo Seraphim

Purgatory Host

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2^8, eight bits to a byte

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Degs

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quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
OK; this is how I guess the conversation went:

Phil Keymer: Hi Tony.
Tony Porter: Hi Phil.
PK: I have had a great idea for evangelizing Manchester's students. Do you think it's from God? [summarizes The Plant]
TP: Wow! Great idea! Yeah; I think that may well be from God!
PK: Any idea of a good location for the Plant?
TP: I don't mind your coming into my parish if you'd like. I'd value some help with the crowds of students I have.

That's just a guess of how things went

Yes, exactly, just a guess. Not at all coloured by your obvious sympathy and support for 'The Plant' and its goals?

Frankly, I'd prefer to know what the persons directly involved have to say about the exchange.

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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elsi

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I've read this thread with great interest and I'd firstly like to echo others in saying big up to Big Dan for sticking with this and debating it so well (and keeping that frustration at bay!). I might not agree with what you're saying Dan, but I respect the way you're saying it. I hope The Plant share some of the qualities you've displayed here.

However I still have grave concerns regarding the way The Plant are going about things.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
The fact that the Plant is seeking C of E accountability shows that they take accountability seriously.

Am I the only person wondering what form of accountability starts with the position "if you don't agree with what we're planning to do, we'll just do it anyway"? [Frown]

quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
I merely wonder why people are so against this evangelistic initiative.

I hope the guys involved do similarly Dan, it might not be an easy read, but if they can wade through this thread they could get a valuable insight into the kind of concerns people have. If nothing else it should prove excellent preparation for some of the responses they may get as they launch... [Biased]

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the cap fits - I'm wearing it

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anglicanrascal
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Go for it, Big Dan. You're doing a smashing job. [Overused]
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John Donne

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quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
OK; this is how I guess the conversation went:

Phil Keymer: Hi Tony.
Tony Porter: Hi Phil.
PK: I have had a great idea for evangelizing Manchester's students. Do you think it's from God? [summarizes The Plant]
TP: Wow! Great idea! Yeah; I think that may well be from God!
PK: Any idea of a good location for the Plant?
TP: I don't mind your coming into my parish if you'd like. I'd value some help with the crowds of students I have.

That's just a guess of how things went

Yes, exactly, just a guess. Not at all coloured by your obvious sympathy and support for 'The Plant' and its goals?

Frankly, I'd prefer to know what the persons directly involved have to say about the exchange.

Well it sounds quite plausible, but if he thinks it's such a great idea and from God, why doesn't the Revd Porter offer a bit more and incorporate The Plant into his own parish formally, using whatever resources The Plant people were going to use to support themselves if they set up as independent?

It wouldn't have anything to do with getting another 3 voices on Synod would it? (That's how we do things here btw; each parish gets to send the rector and 2 Synodsmen/women)

I think more youth ministry is a good thing, and thankfully, the Holy Spirit isn't constrained by the legalism of Jensenite preaching boxes. The Jensenite outposts in Perth do a lot of good work in the community and by and large they are loving people (except if you mention sexual morality and female headship, then they start frothing at the mouth).

I think if they'd attached themselves to an existing Anglican church few people would raise an eyebrow. Excuse my cynicism*, but their plan to be an independent unit appears entirely political. [Disappointed]

(*Speaking as one who has been watching Sydney Diocese's battle plan for taking over Perth in action; and actually, they're doing a good job of it)

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anglicanrascal
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quote:
Originally posted by Icarus Coot:
(*Speaking as one who has been watching Sydney Diocese's battle plan for taking over Perth in action; and actually, they're doing a good job of it)

"Oh deep in my heart, I do believe,
We shall overcome some day!"

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Big Dan
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quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
That's just a guess of how things went

Yes, exactly, just a guess. Not at all coloured by your obvious sympathy and support for 'The Plant' and its goals?

No. I'm not part of the Plant. My guess was based on my knowledge of Phil Keymer and Holy Trinity, Platt. I agree with the goal of the Plant as its goal is evangelism -- I'd rather assumed that everybody here would agree with that . . . . (But my sympathy is based on this knowledge, not the other way around!)

The point of giving an (educated) guess is this: it shows that here is a perfectly possible option that the questioners of the Plant have not ruled out. Alan Cresswell said (not critically) `The impression I'm getting, and please clear it up if I'm wrong, is that the Plant decided to start this initiative and almost by coincidence it helped out Tony Porter'. The point of my guess is that it shows that, for all we know, it wasn't a `coincidence' that it helped out Tony Porter. For all we know Tony Porter asked for help. Since this is true for all we know, critics of the Plant shouldn't assume it's not true.

quote:

Frankly, I'd prefer to know what the persons directly involved have to say about the exchange.

Why did you post here, then, rather than e-mailing them? I'd assumed people posted to this site because they wanted people like me to reply . . . .

*I* still have an unanswered question (posed yeseterday): why don't we put this thread on ice until we have some hard facts about what the Bishop thinks? You, Degs, and others, seem keen on hard facts rather than guesses, so why don't we just wait a day or two until the Bishop's decision is revealed and we can discuss with greater knowledge? Hope that's OK with everyone else.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Big Dan
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quote:
Originally posted by elsi:
Am I the only person wondering what form of accountability starts with the position "if you don't agree with what we're planning to do, we'll just do it anyway"? [Frown]

The Plant doesn't start with this position. It's open to advice and correction. But the leaders don't think that being Anglican is the only way to be. Hence if the C of E were to refuse their request for accountability they wouldn't mind asking other people for it.

It's a good job that Wesley and his followers didn't think that being Anglican was the only way to be . . . .

Anyway, I said that we should give this thread a rest until we had some hard facts from the Bishop so I'll leave it there . . . .

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Big Dan
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quote:
Originally posted by Icarus Coot:
Well it sounds quite plausible, but if he thinks it's such a great idea and from God, why doesn't the Revd Porter offer a bit more and incorporate The Plant into his own parish formally

I believe it's because he's too busy.

Anyway, I said that we should give this thread a rest until the Bishop had given some more to go on, so I'll sign off now . . . .

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
It's a good job that Wesley and his followers didn't think that being Anglican was the only way to be . . . .

Actually, Wesley died an Anglican. He never wanted Methodism to be seperate from the Anglican Church, that the two parted company was, more than anything, a result of human pride and politics (on both sides) rather than an actual desire by the Wesleys or their immediate followers.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Adeodatus
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What Alan Cresswell said. Plus (this isn't aimed at Methodists) to separate from a 'mother' church is a dreadful and very serious thing to do. Schism is a wound in the Body of Christ, and those who inflict such a wound must be very sure of their motives. To separate from a church merely because a few local ministers put their ideas above its corporate discipline ... well, this is purgatory, so I won't say what I think of it. But, as Big Dan says, we're waiting to hear if it will come to that....
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
To separate from a church merely because a few local ministers put their ideas above its corporate discipline ...

Ah-hah! Lectures from an Anglican on schism. [Killing me] [Biased]

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big Dan
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Actually, Wesley died an Anglican. He never wanted Methodism to be seperate from the Anglican Church, that the two parted company was, more than anything, a result of human pride and politics (on both sides) rather than an actual desire by the Wesleys or their immediate followers.

Yes, but I was referring to the un-Anglican habit of preaching out of doors. The Anglicans refused to let Wesley have a puplit, so Wesley didn't just give up his desire to preach the gospel. Rather, he went out and did the un-Anglican thing of preaching outside. That was the point.

Anyway, Alan, since you're a host, do you agree with my suggestion that we give it a rest until the Bishop can inject something new into the debate?

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Adeodatus
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Dyfrig: of course! We're the best at it. We've had the most practice! (And the serious part is - that's nearly true, and it counts to our utter shame.)

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Big Dan
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
What Alan Cresswell said. Plus (this isn't aimed at Methodists) to separate from a 'mother' church is a dreadful and very serious thing to do. Schism is a wound in the Body of Christ, and those who inflict such a wound must be very sure of their motives. To separate from a church merely because a few local ministers put their ideas above its corporate discipline ... well, this is purgatory, so I won't say what I think of it. But, as Big Dan says, we're waiting to hear if it will come to that....

Just to make it clear: the Plant doesn't want to separate from the Church of England. The question is: will the Church of England accept their request to be part of it?

On that, as Adeodatus says, we are waiting for the Bishop's answer . . . till then . . . .

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
I was referring to the un-Anglican habit of preaching out of doors. The Anglicans refused to let Wesley have a puplit, so Wesley didn't just give up his desire to preach the gospel. Rather, he went out and did the un-Anglican thing of preaching outside. That was the point.

OK, point taken ... yes I see what you mean. Though I'm not sure the analogy to an itinerant preacher is quite suitable when talking about establishing a church.

quote:
Anyway, Alan, since you're a host, do you agree with my suggestion that we give it a rest until the Bishop can inject something new into the debate?
Well, I've not participated in this thread in any official capacity, and to do so now would not be proper. However, I do think (unofficially) we have maybe got as far as we can in discussing this specific church, with the information we currently have.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
I agree with the goal of the Plant as its goal is evangelism -- I'd rather assumed that everybody here would agree with that . . . . (But my sympathy is based on this knowledge, not the other way around!)


I agree with the goal but I have to ask myself is a new church the correct way to go? Is it revolutionary enough or actually doing what churches have done for hundreds of years creating another organisation to which the same number of christains can take non-christian people to. Not so much liquid church but stuck in the past church.


There is also the issue of church order if they were an new church that is fine but they want to be part of the church of England. I agree with the ministers comments about how dated some of the Church of Englands approaches to ministry are. If the plant want to be part of a group they should have gone by the rules of the group this does not seem to have been done. I am certain the plant could be accommodated within the CofE structures but I find myself doubting that it will work out.

I do not doubt the sincerity of the people setting up the Plant and I have to say I admire Big Dan's defence of it.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Big Dan
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
If the plant want to be part of a group they should have gone by the rules of the group this does not seem to have been done.

You raise some interesting points, Nightlamp, and I'm sure the Plant's team would love to hear more about them from you, but just to clear up one final point:
the Plant has not broken any of the rules of the C of E. It has applied to be part of the C of E and everybody is waiting for the Bishop's reply.

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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Big Dan
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though I'm not sure the analogy to an itinerant preacher is quite suitable when talking about establishing a church.

That was why I wrote `Wesley and his followers' rather than just `Wesley'. But I agree that I didn't make myself very clear, so thanks, Alan, for making me clarify the point.

quote:


However, I do think (unofficially) we have maybe got as far as we can in discussing this specific church, with the information we currently have.

I agree, so let's leave it there.

(Please don't tempt me, critics of the Plant, by posting further discussion while my back is turned . . . .)

Big Dan

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OK, yes, I know it's a picture of Big Ben. Can you find one of Big Dan? (OK, yes, I know Big Ben is actually the bell . . . .)

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:

1) [a fairly good joke]

2) [rather laboured bit that avoids the serious questions of the treatment of women and homosexuals in society and the Church by relying on "the Bible says"]

3) [even more laboured point failing to comprehend the issues inherent in using a predominantly white, male middle class ministry in poor, ethnically mixed areas where the majority of church goers are women]

4) [ditto]

5) [a paragraph implying that the writer does not appreciate (or chooses to remain blind to) the fact that church leaders aren't always antirely innocent of a bit of empire building and that there has, and always will be, an element of sheep-stealing amongst those setting up new churches. If this were not so, numbers would not be an issue]

6) [slightly disingenuous bit based on the old cliche that libruls don't believe the Bible]


2/10

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Minister
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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:

1) [a fairly good joke]2) [rather laboured bit that avoids the serious questions of the treatment of women and homosexuals in society and the Church by relying on "the Bible says"]

3) [even more laboured point failing to comprehend the issues inherent in using a predominantly white, male middle class ministry in poor, ethnically mixed areas where the

majority of church goers are women]

4) [ditto]

5) [a paragraph implying that the writer does not appreciate (or chooses to remain blind to) the fact that church leaders aren't always antirely innocent of a bit of empire building and that there has, and always will be, an element of sheep-stealing amongst those setting up new churches. If this were not so, numbers would not be an issue]

6) [slightly disingenuous bit based on the old cliche that libruls don't believe the Bible]


2/10
So, taking the Bible (and thus God) at his word is unacceptable, but asking "Who would Jesus bomb?" is Ok?!

Interesting!

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Minister
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p.s I thought it was hilarious, Custard - and SO true!!!
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:

1) [a fairly good joke]

[...]

3) [even more laboured point failing to comprehend the issues inherent in using a predominantly white, male middle class ministry in poor, ethnically mixed areas where the majority of church goers are women]

4) [ditto]

[...]

2/10
Even ONE "fairly good joke" a day is a turnup for the books.

And 5 made me giggle (be thankful you weren't there)

I took 3 & 4 as a rath3er laboured way of making the point that the local population is not mostly full of white, male, university graduates with white-collart jobs, clean rugby shirts, and big grins on their faces.

Two and two-thirds out of five ain't bad.

(Actually do these sorts of people still wear clean rugby shirts under baggy jumpers? That's probably my dated memories of 1970s Durham University evangelical scene cropping up unwanted. Green wellies with straps on. Actually they were more likely to be the gin-drinkers than the evangelicals)

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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by minister:

quote:
So, taking the Bible (and thus God) at his word is unacceptable, but asking "Who would Jesus bomb?" is Ok?!

Interesting!

And todays prize for being unable to grasp the concept of irony goes to...

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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I beg your pardon, "Callan"? I am being perfectly seriously. Because I take the Bible (and therefore God) at its word, I am raising the important question of who Jesus wants us to destroy for their sins, in the same way he used the Hebrews to destroy the sinful nations of Canaan. It's all very well you liberals going on about God's love, but what about God's wrath? His righteous anger against the nations? Where is the judgment of God in today's preaching?

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:

(Actually do these sorts of people still wear clean rugby shirts under baggy jumpers? That's probably my dated memories of 1970s Durham University evangelical scene cropping up unwanted).

It was still true in the early 80s. And as I have already pointed out here, the "setting up church in the town hall next to the big CoE "student" church was avoided by the big CoE "student" church meeting in the town hall while its own building was renovated [Big Grin]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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Custard123 point made me think that churches who are in areas where arabic is the main local language should attempt to have someone who has a basic grasp of the language.
I would have given custard123 4/10 because it made me smile despite knowing that it was a very simplistic response to the issue's that face the church.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Minister:
p.s I thought it was hilarious, Custard - and SO true!!!

Weren't you leaving?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Leprechaun

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# 5408

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I have never contributed to a board on the ship before, (I only ever looked at mystery worshippers reports until recently) but followed this thread closely because I’m interested in church planting in the North of England. And it’s all very interesting.

Because I have heard people say that liberal Christianity was the just “the world” coming into “the church.” And that “open evangelicalism” is just “liberalism” by another name.

And I thought - there must be more to it than that. Surely that’s just an easy conservative way to explain a significant movement in church history.

And then I saw they way that the self confessed “liberals” and “open evangelicals” on this board have actually been anything but “liberal” or “open” in their response to an initiative they didn’t agree with. I have been staggered by the hypocrisy of people condemning conservatives (of all people) as not loving their fellow Christians and just talking about judgement, while simultaneously (sometimes in the same post) writing incredibly judgemental, vitriolic comments about people they don’t know on a public message board.
And the way public and open methods of communication are used to undermine, criticise and openly despise an evangelistic initiative where the differences perceived are over what liberals themselves would concede are secondary areas of theology (I thought) – sexual ethics and the exact way scripture is inspired, and which exact model of the atonement is correct, and over which, I would have thought, criticise conservatives for causing disunity.

And I thought – gosh this is exactly the way that people in my (secular) office behave when someone comes along that threatens their settled way of looking at the world, or disagrees with them and their group, or will do things a different way than they would have done it. Whereas I thought real Christians are supposed to love and accept their brothers and sisters, and encourage and build up as much as they, in good conscience, can and look at the plank in their own eye (in this case that rather large plank that we are abjectly failing as a Christian community to reach the unchurched masses at university) and cast the first stone if they are sinless….

And I thought – gosh I don’t know a single conservative evangelical that would publicly criticise an evangelistic initiative based on mere gossip and hearsay and supposedly comparable situations elsewhere in the country without first engaging or attempting to engage with the people who run the project, because most conservatives I know want to encourage evangelism even when it is not run in the way they would like exactly, and where they have concerns would want to talk it over with the group themselves, rather than bad mouthing different parties of the church wherever possible.

And I thought – gosh, the accepted wisdom although simplistic is right. These people show by the way they behave what their theology is – the world coming into the church.

And I know people will respond – we don’t feel very loved by conservative evangelicals. Well, Jesus said love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so I would have thought the Christian response to people in the church who you find difficult is to love them and pray for them, and not treat them they way you think they have treated you (as the world does) but rather treat them the way God would treat them with grace and forgiveness, which I daresay is why the leaders of The Plant have not wanted to contribute to this board, because they don’t want to risk entering a slanging match with other Christians. Just stereotyping people, writing complaining letters to the authorities, using public methods of gossip and slander to discredit them, I’m sure that is behaviour that I have seen somewhere else. Oh yes….the world.

Interesting, isn’t it?

Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081

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And I thought - gosh, this was supposed to be a Christian website™. [Biased]

OOT

[ 13. January 2004, 12:12: Message edited by: Ophelia's Opera Therapist ]

--------------------
Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home.
Martyn Joseph

Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
elsi

Live from Elsewhere
# 2098

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Whilst I agree that it's probably best postponing further speculation re the relationship with the CofE until further information becomes available, there are other elements to this discussion that fall outside of that, so I hope it's OK to continue with them?

quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Custard123 point made me think that churches who are in areas where arabic is the main local language should attempt to have someone who has a basic grasp of the language.

This assumes they would be adopting a policy of reaching a particular geographic area rather than a demographic and although Big Dan stated:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
(So in fact the Plant is not designed for just students; it's designed for anybody, but students will be the majority in its catchment area, so it seems reasonable to make special provision for them.)

and...

quote:
Originally posted by Big Dan:
The Plant is not set up with `the explicit purpose of catering to only one part of the community'. It is set up to cater to the community as a whole. Since the community round there is largely made up of students it makes sense to try especially hard to meet their needs

I get much more of a feeling from their website that it is a 'primarily' demographically driven enterprise:

quote:
The church has been founded to serve all those who live and work in and around campus, but with a particular focus on students and new graduates.
and...
quote:
Because of this, whilst we seek to welcome and serve all who come to us, our activities are deliberately designed with 18 - 20somethings in mind. As our congregation is established, we naturally anticipate that this group will account for the largest proportion of our members.

Having said this, it is not our intention to create an exclusively student/new graduate congregation and it is our hope that we also attract other people too: professionals, academics, families and others from in and around the campus area. This mixed demographic will be essential to the healthy life of the new church.

Which seems to give a fairly clear picture of what their aims are. I don't think it's unreasonable to take inference from the fact that they specify "professionals" and "academics", but are more vague and catch-all with "families and others".

Which is nice really 'cos the middle-classes of Manchester are so under-represented in the church sphere I find... [Roll Eyes]

Above all, The Plant initiative makes me sad as I fear it will encourage yet more middle-class students (and a sizeable chunk are from that background) to miss an invaluable experience of 'doing-church' with people from different socio-economic backgrounds to their own. A missed opportunity to use those precious college years to expand ones horizons a bit. I don't know... something along the lines of education maybe?

The best decisions I ever made at Manchester Uni (well OK second best to dumping my fresher year boyfriend! [Big Grin] ), was to steer clear of the main CU (meetings on Saturday nights seemed to me to reinforce the concept of Christian ghetto - anyhow better music at the Hacienda [Biased] ) and through avoiding student churches ending up at a community church on one of the roughest estates in Manchester.

This revolutionised my spiritual journey and 10 years after graduating I'm still living in that Manchester neighbourhood, involved in community projects, living out my faith in the grit and the grind of what constitutes real life for me and my neighbours and thanking God for the riches I've discovered along the way.

So I guess my concerns re 'student churches' are influenced by my experience - I'll own that bias.

As for Custard123's post - I'll score it 3/10, (awarded purely for humour).

As for Dyfrig's response to Callan - sheer (smiting) class 10/10 [Killing me] [Overused]

--------------------
the cap fits - I'm wearing it

Posts: 272 | From: Manchester | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Irish & Proud
Shipmate
# 4825

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Leprechaun,

Welcome to the ship. I suspect from where you are that you are another expat like myself.

One of the common misconceptions that I regularly fall into on this website is to assume that everyone involved in the discussion is a Christian and also to assume that they are also not human.

Most people on this board [Big Grin] are in fact flawed individuals with their own preconceived ideas and understandings of what is right and what is wrong. Rightly or wrongly everything in the public domain is open for discussion on these boards and therefore is seen from the point of view these preconceived ideas and notions.

Ref the specific conerns voiced about the 'The Plant', Big Dan has been addressing these magnificently.

God has obviously sparked something in the guys setting this up. If reading this thread helps them to iron out issues and glitches then that is wonderful. At the end of the day much of what is being debated is still hypothetical as they are not due to launch for another 9 months. Much could change before then.

[Edited because I keep forgetting i before e except after c]

[ 13. January 2004, 12:49: Message edited by: Irish & Proud ]

Posts: 221 | From: Somewhere with not enough rain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Ophelia's Opera Therapist:
And I thought - gosh, this was supposed to be a Christian website™. [Biased]

OOT

Oh, Yeah. Helpful. Really Helpful.

Now are you going to address Leprechaun's point or legitimise it?

--------------------
Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081

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My main considered response to the issues raised in Leprechaun's post was in my post on page 4 where I sought to be very reasonable to all sides of the debate. My immediate response here was, I accept, not very charitable to a newbie, though I tried to soften it with a wink smilie.

To be honest I found Leprechaun's post to be sarcastic, preaching and patronising. It seemed very judgemental of a number of posters who have made considered responses on a debate thread. Apart from Cosmo's early reply, I can't think that many posters could seriously be described as making "incredibly judgemental, vitriolic comments".

If Leprechaun truly is a long term lurker on the Ship I would have thought he/she would have heard the 'Christian Website' line before. But Irish & Proud made the point far better than I did, and in much better grace. What can I say, I'm not a Good Little Evangelical anymore.

OOT

--------------------
Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home.
Martyn Joseph

Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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Elsi I was really making a general statement about churches as opposed to being about the plant.

Leprechaun if the plant did not want themselves to be discussed they should not have put up a Website. Arguement is part of the way the church has done things starting from the council of Jerusalem onwards.
The key part of the cricitism is there relationship with manchester diocese if it was simply a new church this thread would have died on page one. The other key crictism is the issue of actually decreasing christian witness because of more competition.
It has to be said the Big Dan has has presented the other side quite well.

When the Bishop of Oxford appointed Jeffrey John as Bishop of reading the response of some members of the church was less than charitable.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634

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Dear Leprechaun,

Please don't call open evangelicals liberals. Despite the love and respect they hold their liberal brothers and sisters in they have called themselves OEs for very specific reasons and may come from conservative evangelical bakgrounds whose members have hurt them though they still have a strong love for the evangelical message. You simply add to their wounds.

IANJ

Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Despite the love and respect they hold their liberal brothers and sisters in they have called themselves OEs for very specific reasons and may come from conservative evangelical bakgrounds whose members have hurt them

May have come, but not most of them I think. "Open Evangelical" is now probably the most common self-description of CofE churches, and used by an actual majority of our theological colleges. So, numerically, it is the mainstream. They can't all be wounded post-evangelical persons.

(For myself I could put up with being called "theologically conservative" or "traditionalist";and quite happy, in fact happier, to be known as "orthodox", or even "fundamentalist"; if it wasn't that some people still assume that that would mean you don't like ordaining women, and you subscribe to brain-dead young-earth so-called-creationism.)

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Minister
Apprentice
# 5404

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Minister:
p.s I thought it was hilarious, Custard - and SO true!!!

Weren't you leaving?
I was - and then I thought I'd keep reading in the hope of the appology I was looking for - for the treatment of the leaders of the plant on this thread.

But I'm glad I'm still following because otherwise I'd have missed Leprechaun's excellent post - saying exactly what was on my mind in a way I couldn't. I agree - this discussion often seems to be a slanging match which smacks of the world and not of Jesus. The majority of people on this thread claim to be Christian. But the way the leaders of The Plant has been treated has been, at very least, unloving. I know people justify the style of debate as a trait of "The Ship" - but it is also contrary to the way we as Christians should behave, and is a very poor witness to the non-Christians who apprently come here.

But I may keep reading in the hope of that appology for the leaders of The Plant...

Posts: 12 | From: North | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Minister:

But the way the leaders of The Plant has been treated has been, at very least, unloving.

You seem to be confusing crictical with unloving although I admit some posters have been fairly blunt.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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I am sorry, minister, but I do not think you, personally, are in a position to ask for an apology to persons who have neither demanded such an apology nor have given any indication that they have taken umbrage. It is not your call to do this.

Furthermore, I believe you are now contradicting yourself - you have accused many here of being unloving, but have also commended custard123 for their post, which includes a caricature of "liberal" teaching as basically not using any judgmental language and not challenging worldly comfort. The criticisms of the Plant on this board come from people with knowledge and experience of church work. They are not spoken in a vacuum nor in ignorance. They may be uncomfortable to hear, they may often be couched in quite hard language, but that does not make them wrong nor does it mean that they should not be listened to - the same tactics were used by our Lord and Paul to shake people out of their comfort and complacancy.

Or would rather us do something worldly like tell the Plant, "That's just great, guys! There are no problems at all! You can achieve anything you want to! Go for it! Don't just dream it - be it!"

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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# 4992

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I agree to some extent with Minister. What some of us (I include myself) have been doing is extrapolating from the little we know of the Plant, and from sometimes painful experiences of our own, in expressing our concerns.

I think we all need to remind ourselves that we do know very little about this initiative, and that there's a lot of speculation around. As far as I know, there's been no word from the Bishop of Manchester yet (I assume he'll be in touch with the Plant team before anyone else) and until there has, none of us can really address the most basic question - will the Plant be an Anglican initiative, or will it become an independent church?

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Minister
Apprentice
# 5404

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Minister:

But the way the leaders of The Plant has been treated has been, at very least, unloving.

You seem to be confusing crictical with unloving although I admit some posters have been fairly blunt.
Ephesians 4:15
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

There's a world of difference between "speaking the truth (sometimes criticism) in love" and just speaking criticism. I'm sorry there hasn't been more "speaking the truth in love" - for then, if there was valid criticism to respond to, the Plant leadership would no doubt be interested in hearing and responding - and would be built up in the way Paul invisages. But it seems to me that the criticism here has often not been shared in love - and so has been hurtful, painful, and rather than build up has been rather destructive.

For myself, if I have been guilty of un-loving criticism, as is still in my sinful nature!, then I'm really sorry to those I've been unloving towards.

Posts: 12 | From: North | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Minister:
The majority of people on this thread claim to be Christian. But the way the leaders of The Plant has been treated has been, at very least, unloving. I know people justify the style of debate as a trait of "The Ship" - but it is also contrary to the way we as Christians should behave, and is a very poor witness to the non-Christians who apprently come here.

Well, I've seen nothing here contrary to any requirement of Christian behaviour I subscribe to. There's nothing loving about letting people go out and do something that you can see potential problems with; there's plenty loving about telling them what you think ... and if that gets people to think a bit more about what they're doing then they'll do it better. Loving someone does not equate to being nice to them.

And, there's nothing in the purpose of the Ship that implies our purpose is to be a witness to those who visit us who do not share our faith. Nevertheless, I do believe the Ship as it is is a better witness than it would be if it was some saccharin coated "nice Christian™ " place.

But, this has nothing really to do with the subject of this thread and should probably be discussed on another thread while we await news from meetings in Manchester diocese.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Dyfrig:

quote:
I beg your pardon, "Callan"? I am being perfectly seriously. Because I take the Bible (and therefore God) at its word, I am raising the important question of who Jesus wants us to destroy for their sins, in the same way he used the Hebrews to destroy the sinful nations of Canaan. It's all very well you liberals going on about God's love, but what about God's wrath? His righteous anger against the nations? Where is the judgment of God in today's preaching?
Good grief! Give him a blue scarf and he think's he's Godfrey de Bouillon.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Minister
Apprentice
# 5404

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There's nothing loving about letting people go out and do something that you can see potential problems with; there's plenty loving about telling them what you think ... and if that gets people to think a bit more about what they're doing then they'll do it better.

The way the criticism is handled is vital. If its done "in love" we may be built up - if its not don in love, as I am suggesting has happened here, then the criticism is simply destructive.


quote:
And, there's nothing in the purpose of the Ship that implies our purpose is to be a witness to those who visit us
It may not be the Ship's purpose - but it is God's!!!

"15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

1 Peter 3:15

With love!

Minister

[sorted out the UBB for the quote]

[ 13. January 2004, 14:58: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

Posts: 12 | From: North | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

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[Mad] At least, I did agree with Minister till he started quoting Scripture at us. Not a good idea here, Minister. There are enough of us who are sufficiently scripturally literate to play that game right back at you. We're not a bunch of pew-fodder, you know.

Alan Cresswell: perhaps as Big Dan suggested (and with the permission of the thread starter if necessary) we might put a padlock on this one and start up all over again when we know more?

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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But who decides whether something is 'in love' or not? I have been reading and conversing with the people on this thread for 2 1/2 years now, and they are just doing what they always have done - open up something for discussion by making a critical point, which someone else is at liberty to answer by giving evidence to the contrary. I don't and never have seen that as 'unloving', rather it is a good technique to get to the core of the issue and look at it from all sides.
Big Den seems to have understood this (I think),and is giving reasoned answers.

(posted before I saw the suggestion above about ending the debate for now)

[ 13. January 2004, 14:59: Message edited by: Chorister ]

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Good grief! Give him a blue scarf and he think's he's Godfrey de Bouillon.

Fish soup! Fish soup!

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged



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