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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Guns 'n' irretrievable psychological damage
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
The thought of corrosive-acid beaker-wielding violent criminals doesn't scare me - it makes me laugh.

I presume you think the idea is funny because you don't think it happens. When it does happen it usually rates a brief article on the inside pages of the paper. It is most commonly done by a man to a woman who has separated from/broken up with him. The acid leaves her blind and permanently disfigured, which is a satisfying revenge from the man's point of view. The prison sentence for that isn't nearly as long as the prison term for murder.

I can remember one case that made the front pages when I was a teenager. An investigative reporter was busy exposing mob activity. He was warned to stop but he kept on. He had acid thrown in his face which left him blind. These things do happen.

quote:
Carrying a gun is different because it's possible to keep ready access of handguns away from people.
It is not that easy to keep handguns away from people. Many handdguns are illegally manufactured every year. In the 1940s high school students used to make guns in shop class when the teacher wasn't looking.

I read the autobiography of a man who grew up in the inner city. When he was a teenager he was under tremendous pressure to join a gang. He didn't want to do it, so he started making guns and supplying both sides. His neutrality was respected.

I am ready to bet that somewhere on the internet you can find instructions on how to make a handgun. I am also ready to bet that all the required materials are easily obtainable.

Keeping handguns out of everyone's hands is even more difficult than keeping marijuana away from everyone. We all know how much success the government has had in that area.

Moo

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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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quote:
if one of the subway passengers in NY had been armed when the guy went through killing white people
was wondering if someone would bring that up. first off, it wasn't the subway, it was the long island railway, the north hempstead line (a fact emblazened on my mind because at that time i was using the regular hempstead line to get to work every day, so it felt a bit close).

secondly, yes, i suppose if _one_ person had been armed, assuming they were a good shot, lives could have been saved.

but suppose _everyone_ had been armed... or even just _half_ the train car. there could have been an absolute bloodbath with everyone firing from different point, richocheting, people not realizing who shot first, and taking on the wrong person...

besides. all of this stiff (incuding the acid throwing moo mentions above) is rather rare. statistically i'm sure i'm more likely to fall down my stairs and kill myself. much more likely. yet you'd probably think i was a bit odd if i decided to wear a helmet every time i left the house and went down the stairs.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Lurker McLurker™

Ship's stowaway
# 1384

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quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
The links I provided were all news paper articles from December. The fact is, these types of crimes are not reported on a national level often enough. Probably because the liberal media doesn't want to raise public awareness as to how dangerous it really is out there.

You're saying there's not enough crime reported in the U.S Media? Are there many Americans who share your views (who don't work in news media)?

[ 11. January 2004, 12:48: Message edited by: 'Lurker' ]

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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote from nicolemrw
quote:
secondly, yes, i suppose if _one_ person had been armed, assuming they were a good shot, lives could have been saved.

but suppose _everyone_ had been armed... or even just _half_ the train car. there could have been an absolute bloodbath with everyone firing from different point, richocheting, people not realizing who shot first, and taking on the wrong person...

You assume that people with guns would have immediately started shooting. This is extremely unlikely. They would probably have pointed their guns at the shooter and told him to drop his. That is what happened in the episode at the Appalachian School of Law which I described earlier on this thread.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

Americans have a visceral antagonism to government. They really do. And I couldn't tell you where it comes from. I don't remember learning it. Most of us just know it somehow. Governments are not to be trusted.

While not presuming to speak for everybody, I think most people in the UK distrust the government on a sort of general basis, that they are a bunch of shysters and probably incompetent. But we also think that basically their job is to protect us and run the things that are best run centrally - somebody has to, after all. If they stray too far from this they'll get voted out, and that'll show them. We don't have the feeling of threat that many Americans seem to.

I wonder if this as something to do with scale as well as history? Remembering that the whole UK would fit happily into most US states several times over, our 'big government' is really pretty local. Do people in the US feel the same about state government as they do about federal government?

How do other big countries like Australia feel? I don't sense a similar attitude to that of the US, Australia seems more similar to the UK in that respect?

Rat

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053

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quote:
Originally posted by 'Lurker':
You're saying there's not enough crime reported in the U.S Media? Are there many Americans who share your views (who don't work in news media)?

Until I started researching it, I didn't know just how bad (nationwide) home-invasions had gotten. I knew about particular hot-spots that I've lived in over the years. National news does not touch these kinds of issues enough in my opinion. They do not provide a "big picture" on crime or other events.

Not to derail this thread, but the tendency of the media to be biased really slammed home for me during the Matthew Shepherd thing. While the front pages of newspapers across America blared the news about his death and the last hour of his life, the only people mentioning a similar event in Texas were the KKK. The event in Texas I speak of was the death-by-sodomy/asphixiation of a bound 14 year old boy. He was spending the night with a homosexual couple who were friends of the family. I still don't think they've ever had a newspaper article on what happened to those perverts.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin

Most Americans (myself included) believe that being able to defend yourself with a gun is a right.

That's interesting. Without intending a value judgement (sincerely) I honestly don't know a single Brit who holds that view. Not one.
I believe that being able to defend myself with any weapon that comes to hand is a right. The only reason I don't have a gun is because they are illegal (except in a few circumstances, none of which apply to me) in this country.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053

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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
was wondering if someone would bring that up. first off, it wasn't the subway, it was the long island railway, the north hempstead line

Excuse me. A train is a train is a train....
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
secondly, yes, i suppose if _one_ person had been armed, assuming they were a good shot, lives could have been saved.

but suppose _everyone_ had been armed... or even just _half_ the train car. there could have been an absolute bloodbath with everyone firing from different point, richocheting, people not realizing who shot first, and taking on the wrong person...

besides. all of this stiff (incuding the acid throwing moo mentions above) is rather rare. statistically i'm sure i'm more likely to fall down my stairs and kill myself. much more likely. yet you'd probably think i was a bit odd if i decided to wear a helmet every time i left the house and went down the stairs.

You are more likely to be stabbed or beaten to death than to be shot. You are far more likely to die from medical malpractice or from an accident than to be a murder victim. I noticed from this report that the older you get, the less likely you are to be murdered, and that murder/suicide rates are highest amongst the 20-25 crowd. Not sure what that means exactly, other than they tend to be more out of control.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Peppone:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

Americans have a visceral antagonism to government. They really do. And I couldn't tell you where it comes from. I don't remember learning it. Most of us just know it somehow. Governments are not to be trusted.

Interesting: I've heard a lot of US citizens say stuff like this. How does it actually translate into action? This is probably a subjective impression, but I have the idea that UK citizens take to the streets far more readily than Americans...
That's because your streets are a helluva lot closer together than ours are. You don't have to take a six-hour flight across country to get to London like a shitload of Americans do to get to DC.

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Peppone
Marine
# 3855

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
You don't have to take a six-hour flight across country to get to London like a shitload of Americans do to get to DC.

OK, I see. It's really only the Federal government you feel so suspicious of? Have I got that right?

But I mean, how do you actually resist being governed? Refuse to pay your taxes?

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I was clutching at straws and wrote your initials, while parish officials were safe in their hames.

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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915

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quote:
Not to derail this thread, but the tendency of the media to be biased really slammed home for me during the Matthew Shepherd thing. While the front pages of newspapers across America blared the news about his death and the last hour of his life, the only people mentioning a similar event in Texas were the KKK. The event in Texas I speak of was the death-by-sodomy/asphixiation of a bound 14 year old boy. He was spending the night with a homosexual couple who were friends of the family. I still don't think they've ever had a newspaper article on what happened to those perverts.
I'm not about to let that little gem from nonpropheteer slip by. What precisely is your point? And has it occurred to you that anyone who engages in murder by sexual torture is -- to use your charming turn of phrase -- a "pervert," regardless of the sex of the perpetrator and the victim. If I'm understanding your point, how in heaven's name does prove media bias? Matthew Shepherd was murdered because of his sexual orientation. The sexual orientation of the couple to whom you refer is irrelevant to the fact that they're murderers.
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Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I'm not about to let that little gem from nonpropheteer slip by.

Thank-you, Presley. I just didn't have the energy.
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443

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"the only people mentioning a similar event in Texas were the KKK."

If this were the only source reporting the event, I might tend to be a bit skeptical. The last time I checked, the KKK was not widely considered to be a paragon of unbiased dedication to factual accuracy.

Greta

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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053

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quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I'm not about to let that little gem from nonpropheteer slip by. What precisely is your point? And has it occurred to you that anyone who engages in murder by sexual torture is -- to use your charming turn of phrase -- a "pervert," regardless of the sex of the perpetrator and the victim. If I'm understanding your point, how in heaven's name does prove media bias? Matthew Shepherd was murdered because of his sexual orientation. The sexual orientation of the couple to whom you refer is irrelevant to the fact that they're murderers.

As is the sexual orientation of Matthew Shepherd in determining whether or not those guys in west-bumfrick are murderers. You have such marvelous powers of perception. How could you tell that I was only referring to them as perverts because they are homosexuals and that I think murder by sexual torture is okay as long as everyone is engaged in heterosexual torture? You are amazing. Perhaps you should get a 900 line - you could change your name to Cleoterian.

Where are the "flippin'the bird" smilies when you need them?

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Louise
Shipmate
# 30

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NP,
You haven't posted a single link to this story or names or a date or a reference to a publication or anything which would allow this story to be verified.

It would help if you did.

L.

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443

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Meanwhile, I'm filing it away, right behind the story of the "welfare queen" who purchased a quart of orange juice with food stamps and then used the change to purchase a quart of vodka.

Greta

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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053

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I have tried, but can't find any news links on line. I've put out a call to CARR-L so I should be able to come up with something soon. I think that particular story is too old and recieved too little national attention to still be active...
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Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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quote:
Originally posted by Rat:


How do other big countries like Australia feel? I don't sense a similar attitude to that of the US, Australia seems more similar to the UK in that respect?

Rat

No, we generally loathe our governments, but you know, you get the government you deserve. We have compulsory voting. You don't vote, you get fined. So you can bitch about who's in power, as long as you voted.
So far as taking up arms to defend ourselves against governments, that is a joke. And not even a good one. It's paranoia.

[Edited for QB.]

[ 12. January 2004, 10:33: Message edited by: Tortuf ]

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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.

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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053

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quote:
Originally posted by Left at the altar:
We have compulsory voting. You don't vote, you get fined. So you can bitch about who's in power, as long as you voted.
So far as taking up arms to defend ourselves against governments, that is a joke. And not even a good one. It's paranoia.

?!!? Don't get me started...

Compulsory voting?!? Now that is something I could protest forever and a day. Talk about being a slave to the government. You can get fined if you don't want to choose between one corrupt politician or another? They are going to force you to choose on evil or another and you have no right to withhold your support from those desireing to have some measure of control over your life and future prosperity?

My mind is closed on this subject. No one can ever convince me that forced voting is a good thing in a free society.

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Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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If we don't want to vote for anyone, we put in a donkey vote and it's not counted. But everyone has to voice an opinion. I think it's good. Better than apathy followed by: "They're not doing what we want".

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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
The function of the right to bear arms in America is to empower people to protect themselves from criminals and governments. That was the original intent "...to ensure a free state."

A pity that it doesn't work then. Iraq under Saddam, Afghanistan more or less for ever, Serbia under Communism, even Armenia during the Soviet period were all countries where private ownership of arms was far higher than in most Western nations.

There is no general correlation between how many guns there are in private ownership and how politically free a country is. Some relatively free nations, like the US, have high gun ownership, others, like many western European countries have low gun oiwnership. Some of the unfreest places in the world have had very high gun ownership.

quote:

In 1945, there were 350,000 firearms and 18 fatal gun accidents per million Americans. By 1995, although the number of guns in the U.S. had more than doubled, incredibly, there were 850,000 firearms with only 6 fatalities per million Americans.


Only? Only?????

In a country the size of Britain 6 per million per year woudl be well over 300 people. In some years that has been less than the number of murders. Add in the - according to your own admission - much larger number of people who kill themselves with guns, many of whom might have failed to kill themselves had a gun not been avaiulable, and it looks as if there are many, many, tens of thousands of people now alive in Britain who would have been dead had we had as many guns lying around as you do.

[Edited for quote UBB.]

[ 12. January 2004, 10:35: Message edited by: Tortuf ]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Americans have a visceral antagonism to government. They really do. And I couldn't tell you where it comes from. I don't remember learning it. Most of us just know it somehow. Governments are not to be trusted.

Some of us think that way as well.

Doesn't mean we want to risk our lives by having lots of guns lying around all over the place.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by MarkE:
If RuthW is right and it makes the news when this kind of thing happens then its a rare event. On the other hand I don't call 2000 occurrences in the state of Florida alone a rare event and that's what np's stats say.

Sounds like "home invasion" is, at least in some Florida news media, just a newly fashionable jargon term for armed burglary.

In which case if goes on everywhere, though seems to be a lot rarer here than there - we have more burglaries than you do but the burglars are much less likely to carry guns.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote from Ken
quote:
we have more burglaries than you do but the burglars are much less likely to carry guns.
Are they less likely to carry any weapon? I would feel extremely threatened if someone broke into my house carrying a knife or a baseball bat.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Are they less likely to carry any weapon? I would feel extremely threatened if someone broke into my house carrying a knife or a baseball bat.

Very unlikely to be armed at all, though they're likely to have some "tools of the trade" (crowbar, screwdriver etc) that may be used as a weapon.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Sounds like "home invasion" is, at least in some Florida news media, just a newly fashionable jargon term for armed burglary.

In which case if goes on everywhere, though seems to be a lot rarer here than there - we have more burglaries than you do but the burglars are much less likely to carry guns.

No, home invasion around here has a specific meaning: breaking into a house when you know the occupants are likely to be awake. Our criminals don't go in for all that frou-frou pansy-assed "wait until they're asleep and then take their stuff" crap. Oh no -- they like you to know it when they victimize you.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Are they less likely to carry any weapon? I would feel extremely threatened if someone broke into my house carrying a knife or a baseball bat.

As far as I'm aware it is rare for burglars to be armed at all in this country. I'm not talking from experience but from the info I picked up from my mother when she did probation work.

'Professional' burglars don't carry weapons because they see jail-time as a risk of the trade and know that going armed will get them a way, way bigger sentence. Also, they would rarely need to, having planned quite well beforehand.

'Amateur' burglars - junkies, kids and the like (the ones that you really want to worry about confronting) - don't usually carry weapons with them because they are acting on the spur of the moment. This doesn't make me feel much happier about the idea of confronting a scared, adrenaline-pumped kid in my living room. I'm still with the stay-in-bed-with-the-covers-over-your-head brigade.

Paradoxically perhaps, the fact that a burglar is unlikely to encounter armed resistance means that he is less likely to feel he needs a weapon to protect himself!

Rat

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
IntellectByProxy

Larger than you think
# 3185

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I did wishy washy lefty socialite voluntary work with under-age criminals in London and saw a lot of cases of burglary.

Not one of them involved the criminal carrying or using a weapon of any kind.

The only one that did was where a young guy was forced to rob a passer-by for his 'phone by a group of lads in a car that threatened to beat his sister with their tyre-iron if he didn't.

The only cases of gun crime I have ever, to my recollection, heard about are between rival gangs who shoot each other and seem to think it a gross social faux pas to shoot a non-gang person.

The only case I have personally been affected by was where a chap a few doors down from us in london woke up to find a knife at his throat. The burglar had been contracted to give someone a 'warning' and broke into the wrong house.

Gun or no gun the sleeping man would have been dead before he could get a hand under his pillow had he tried it on.

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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com

Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053

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quote:
Originally posted by Rat:

'Professional' burglars don't carry weapons because they see jail-time as a risk of the trade and know that going armed will get them a way, way bigger sentence. Also, they would rarely need to, having planned quite well beforehand.

Paradoxically perhaps, the fact that a burglar is unlikely to encounter armed resistance means that he is less likely to feel he needs a weapon to protect himself!

Rat

In America a lot of states have habitual offender laws (called "the 'bitch" by convicts). What this means is that if you committ three felonies(generally 3) then your minimum sentence is greatly increased. In some states, getting the 'bitch' means you serve life. This was supposed to be an incentive to be good, but instead it serves as an incentive to not leave witnesses - alive.
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Peppone:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
You don't have to take a six-hour flight across country to get to London like a shitload of Americans do to get to DC.

OK, I see. It's really only the Federal government you feel so suspicious of? Have I got that right?
I for one am pretty suspicious of California state government, especially now that we've had a look at Gov. Schwarzenneger's fantastical budget. The driving distance from Long Beach to Sacramento is 408 miles, which mapquest.com says it will take me 6 hours to drive. So I'll continue to content myself with writing letters to my state legislators.

I'm also suspicious of my local government, as the city of Long Beach has been run pretty badly for years, and I have taken to the streets (well, the plaza out front of City Hall) here in town, demonstrating several times in favor of the city building a homeless shelter.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scot

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
The teflon coating has nothing to do with penetration of body armor, and I am not aware of any testing which showed it to have effect on penetration. It was a technical feature which was deliberately misrepresented and demonized in order to create hysteria, sell copy, and score political points.

No kidding. What's the teflon for, then?
Laura, I wanted to address your question before this thread vanished.

The so-called "Cop Killer" armor-piercing bullet was invented in the 60s for use by the police. It consisted of a case-hardened steel core with a teflon coating. The steel provided increased target penetration while the Teflon prevented the steel from destroying the bore of the handgun. The ammunition was produced in small quantities and sold only to law enforcement.

In 1982, NBC ran a sensationalistic special which featured the previously obscure ammunition. Demand for the ammunition increased. A number of competitors introduced similar products (some with teflon coating, some without). However, as far as I know, no cops were shot with any of them.

Finally, Congress decided that Something Must Be Done. Some proposed legislation was so broadly written that it would have included most hunting ammunition. Other approaches focused on incidental features, like the Teflon coating. In 1986 a law was passed which banned production of bullets constructed entirely of certain metals, such as steel or tungsten. The Teflon coating was found not to have any measurable effect on penetration.

So why use Teflon-coatings on normal bullets? The condition of the bore is one of the most important factors in handgun accuracy and maintenance. Most bullets use a copper jacket over a lead core. The copper prevents the very soft lead from leaving deposits, but is softer than the steel barrel. However, at higher velocities the copper can leave deposits and cause some wear. Manufacturers use a variety of synthetic coatings (although none dare use the words "Teflon" and "bullet" in the same sentence) to lubricate the barrel and reduce the problems.

Unfortunately, the "Cop Killer" epithet still floats around all these years later. Otherwise well-informed and intelligent people still go into a tizzy at the idea of ranks of white hat-wearing lawmen being ruthlessly gunned down by evildoers firing NRA-approved Teflon bullets. Nevermind the fact that it didn't and couldn't happen. They saw it on TV, so it must be true.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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hermit
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Forgive me if the point has already been made (I've only read the first and last pages), but hasn't there been a tremendous increase in crime in both the UK and Australia since the institution of exceptionally strict gun control laws? Which seems to be true of almost any place enacting such laws in the past decade or so, they simply don't work.

I bought my first gun last year (I'm 43 yo). It's a used old 30-06 singleshot hunting rifle, all dented and worn and possessed of a fearsome roar. It kicks like a mule.

I bought it mainly for hunting, I couldn't really afford all the meat on the Atkins diet. Secondarily for defense against the crank dealers who live in the cottages next to mine. Thirdly for defense against the critters while camping, I've had a bear tear up my little camp and have seen fresh mountain lion tracks crossing my daily path recently, and you know how they've been chowing down recently on Californians like they were so much popcorn.

It took a surprising amount of learning and practice to shoot it so I could hit a target the size of a deer's vitals at 100 meters. It's not just point and click like with a computer. You have to overcome flinching and know ballistics with a gun that has heavy recoil, and then there's a lot of technique involved in hunting also. Shooting and hunting are both difficult arts to master.

After getting a scope and zeroing it in I finally went out hunting for a deer. I walked up a hill one evening and went over the crest, and there was a young mule deer buck staring at me in astonishment. I fumblingly pulled out the rifle, put the crosshairs on him, and pulled the trigger - nothing, I'd forgotten to load it.

By this time I was actually hoping the deer would run away so I wouldn't have to shoot it, but it kept staring at me while I loaded and cocked and lined up the crosshairs on his heart. I shot and he started jumping, then fell down. I was horrified at the suffering I'd caused, it wasn't nearly as much fun as I'd thought it would be ... I'd killed something beautiful and alive. Worse he wasn't quite dead by the time I walked over, wasn't breathing but arched his neck a bit when I touched him.

So I won't be hunting again unless I really desperately need the food ... but isn't it more honest to kill your own food? That way you're aware of the suffering you cause in eating, whether it is an animal or a plant that dies to sustain you.

And there's something genetic in most males that urges us to aim at something to kill it, whether by throwing a rock or spear, shooting an arrow or gun, or even if it's sublimated to internet predation.

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by hermit:
Forgive me if the point has already been made (I've only read the first and last pages), but hasn't there been a tremendous increase in crime in both the UK and Australia since the institution of exceptionally strict gun control laws?

No, not really.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Left at the Altar

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# 5077

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No

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Alan Cresswell

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Actually, in the UK there has been a tremendous increase in crime. It's mostly been due to the rise in the number of mobile phones in use, and kids nicking them off other kids, which is totally unconnected to gun control legislation. There has been no increase in violent crime.

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Rat
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# 3373

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Actually, in the UK there has been a tremendous increase in crime. It's mostly been due to the rise in the number of mobile phones in use, and kids nicking them off other kids, which is totally unconnected to gun control legislation. There has been no increase in violent crime.

I actually thought overall crime was falling, even including the mobile phone thefts which are counted as robbery.

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
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To the best of my knowledge, crime is falling here in Australia.
If we could just stop the criminal underworld shooting each other every second day (it's become a bit of a trend in Melbourne) and bouncers at clubs assualting and killing people (as happened last night), it would be better, but generally, we're fairly safe.

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Alan Cresswell

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Sorry, I must have accidentally read the Daily Mail or something [Hot and Hormonal]

BBC report on 2002 crime figures for England and Wales (I guess 2003 won't be available yet) shows that levels of crime are falling (The trends on the "facts and figures" pop up link are interesting). Scottish Executive figures show a similar trend here.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Rat
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# 3373

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quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Actually, in the UK there has been a tremendous increase in crime. It's mostly been due to the rise in the number of mobile phones in use, and kids nicking them off other kids, which is totally unconnected to gun control legislation. There has been no increase in violent crime.

I actually thought overall crime was falling, even including the mobile phone thefts which are counted as robbery.
Sorry to quote myself, but it occurs to me that it depends on the time period we are talking about. I was thinking about recent past, where my impression is that the rise in crime that happened during the 80s\early 90s has been reversed and is now on a general downwards trend. (I could be wrong about this, I don't have time right now to do a proper search, but that's my impression).

However, if we are talking about a period from when gun controls came in - when was that, early last century? - then Alan may be correct that crime has risen over that period. If so, I don't think gun control has much to do with it - UK society has changed out of all recognition during that time.

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
However, if we are talking about a period from when gun controls came in - when was that, early last century? - then Alan may be correct that crime has risen over that period. If so, I don't think gun control has much to do with it - UK society has changed out of all recognition during that time.

I thought they were talking about the post-Dunblaine tightening of gun control. That's only in the last decade.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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I was thinking more post-Hungerford (1987). But even before then gun control in the UK was far stricter than in the US (and the culture was such that someone owning the sort of rifles used by Ryan was considered very strange, even though they weren't breaking the law).

Though the stats do show a general decrease in crime after that (as I've learnt by looking at them rather than some half remembered scare stories in media), given that crimes involving firearms were rare even in 1987 gun control laws since then have had very little impact.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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hermit
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I looked at your link, Alan, and it mentions "surveys" as the preferred method of determining the crime rate, but I'd be surprised if that could be a truly objective method.

Then it's admitted that the crime rate went up, but unnamed govt statisticians claim that 5 of 7% increase is due to "new counting methodology", who knows what that may be about. I don't know why one counting method would show more crimes than another.

It's true the vague impressions I had of increased crime probably originally came from tabloids, but in the UK at least Alan's link shows this:
MAIN POLICE STATISTICS (2001-02)

VIOLENT CRIME

Total violence against the person: 650,154 (up 8%)
of this figure:
Total most serious violent offences: 32,350 (up 2%)
Total less serious violent offences: 617,804 (up 9%)

Total sexual offences: 41,425 (up 11%)
of this figure:
Total rapes (female): 9,008 (up 14%)
Total rapes (male): 735 (up 11%)

Total robbery 121,375 (up 28%)
of this figure:
Total robbery of personal property: 108,178 (up 31%)

PROPERTY CRIME

Total burglaries: 878,535 (up 5%)
of this figure:
Burglary in a dwelling: 426,872 (up 7%)
Aggravated burglary in dwelling: 3,489 (up 14%)

Total theft/handling: 2,267,055 (up 6%)
of this figure:
Aggravated vehicle taking: 11,792 (10%)
Theft from a vehicle: 655,127 (4%)
Theft from shop: 306,308 (5%)

Total fraud and forgery: 317,399 (down 1%)

Total criminal damage: 1,064,470 (up 11%)
of this figure:
Arson: 60,472 (up 14%)
Criminal damage to home: 268,988 (up 13%)

OTHER CRIMES

Total drugs offences: 121,332 (up 7%)
of this figure:
Trafficking: 19,583 (down 1%)
Possession: 100,944 (up 9%)

Total crime: 5,527,082 (up 7%)

--------------------
"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine

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hermit
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# 1803

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Sorry for the double post, but it looks like I was hoaxed concerning the "increase" in Australian crime: Snopes on Australian guns.

[Edited for link UBB.]

[ 19. January 2004, 23:49: Message edited by: Tortuf ]

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"You called out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness... You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain that peace which was yours." Confessions, St Augustine

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Rat
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Whether crime rose in 2001-02 or not, the trend since 1995 has been sharply downwards. So whether this is a stabilisation as the government claim, or the beginning of a climb, or just a glitch, I doubt it has any link to gun control legislation one way or the other.

Mobile phone theft really does make a significant difference to the figures - these are the kind of kid-on-kid crimes that previously would have gone unreported, but now something of value is being stolen so the parents report it, for insurance reasons if nothing else.

--------------------
It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

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Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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quote:
Originally posted by hermit:
Sorry for the double post, but it looks like I was hoaxed concerning the "increase" in Australian crime: Snopes on Australian guns.

[Edited for link UBB.]

Hermit
"Ed Chenel, police officer"? For goodness sake. No copper in Australia would refer to himself as such. Nor write that drivel. It's call pro-gun propaganda.

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Left at the Altar

Ship's Siren
# 5077

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Sorry Hermit. Should have read you better before responding!!! Apologies. My parents put these stupid "letters" to me to justify their illogical stance on a number of topics and I see red. That, of course, is no excuse for misreading you, but it's the best I can do right now.

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Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.

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