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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A Taste for Bunkum
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Rant for Comment ...
Henry Ford once said that "History is bunkum!" The UK Education minister, Charles Clarke was clearly deeply traumatised by trivia having reading History at university. He was none too complemenatry about history in the curriculum a little while ago. There are not many history posts available at the moment in the secondary sector of education ... the humanities being squeezed particularly hard by Labour's new "white hot technological revolution.
[ 08. January 2006, 21:57: Message edited by: Erin ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I knew it! I knew this would turn out to be a Fr. Gregory attack on the Labour government!
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
A Purgatory rant! What rare animal is this?
I'll happily join in, Fr Gregory. Our 'culture' isn't interested in real education: only in training people to be productive and docile economic work-units. Schools are in the business of making children 'acquire skills', not in the business of forming them as human beings. It's not the schools' fault: you're right that the humanities (those educational disciplines that truly humanise us) have been all but excluded from the 'national curriculum'.
History, literature, music, philosophy - soon they'll all be gone (even, God help us, sociology and politics - the only humanities that would equip us to criticise the political bounders that have created this mess). Even real science is on the way out - real science involving a creative imagination, that is - and all that's left is 'technology' (where's the emoticon for a sneer?). A friend of mine who used to teach M.Sc. Physics said to me a few years ago that his students were now coming to him with no imagination and not knowing how to think. He now works in America. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Something wierd happened when I tried to post this question. I'll try and reconstruct the last part.
................
The only historical subjects that seem worthy for study today in the secondary curriculum are the Romans (sexy), Henry VIII (loveable old rogue who put the Pope in his place ... actually a Saddamesque tyrant), social movements in the 19th century, (PC), and "relevant" history ... usually that which lies within the wartime memories of grandpa and great-grandpa, (endless studies of the First World War and the rise of fascism / communism).
This, of course has affected the churches as well. What possible relevance could Egyptian monasticism have to the concerns of a contemporary rural parish? Who cares about the pedgagogy of the fathers? What use are the Rhineland Mystics to Mrs. Jones on the 92 bus?
When we lose our history we lose our collective memory and the cultural infrastructure of our society. We become a rootless people buffeted and overtaken by contemporary insights and ideologies that are presented as new and exciting (and, therefore, "true") when they are really old and rather battered by re-rendering. The loss of history has enabled politicians particularly to con us in accepting anything thet serve up under the banner of "reform" or "modernisation." Bring back history! Recover who you are so you can know what you can become. End this senseless (literally) cultural lobotomy!
[ 07. January 2004, 17:02: Message edited by: Fr. Gregory ]
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Fr. Gregory
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I knew it! I knew this would turn out to be a Fr. Gregory attack on the Labour government!
The experience of history?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Okay, now I'm really lost. What are you driving at, Fr. G?
(sorry, crosspost)
So what you're saying, Chapelhead, is that people who remember history are doomed to hear Fr. Gregory repeat himself?
[ 07. January 2004, 17:10: Message edited by: Mousethief ]
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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385
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Posted
You are on the right lines Fr Gregory.
Sciences and maths are "in" because governments like to be seen to be fostering scientists, and to be at the forefront of technology.
On the other hand- trendy subjects like Media Studies, Marketing and on the rise- which means harder, more traditional academic subjects get squeezed out.
Then politicians wonder why we seem to have produced a generation of young people who (on the whole) don't like to vote, don't care about politics, and only care about who wins Pop Idol.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Adeodatus and Flying Belgian have said it for me Mousethief. I am saying that we live as if history had no bearing on the present. The only possible exception to this being the lessons learned from the rise of fascism.
Adeodatus and Flying Belgian have amplified my point about the increasing narrowness of the curriculum in a technocratic culture.
Our historical amnesia is reflected in the churches by our absorption in the present moment. In politics there is a numbing of the senses because most have become political illiterates. Voters (and politicians) look for immediate payoffs rather than long term strategies. Without history we lose memory, culture, everything. We don't care anymore. We don't who we are or what we could become because we know don't what we have been .... the forces that have shaped us and still control our lives whether we are conscious of these or not. We have inflicted upon ourselves a cultural lobotomy.
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Fr. Gregory
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
When has it ever been different?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Its science and maths that are dying out in schools, not history. Most schools no longer have qualified maths teachers, and many don't have physics or chemistry teachers, Physcis and chemistry departments are closing in universities for lack of students.
You can't even do separate science GCSEs in my daughter's school, they are swept off the curriculum to be replaced by a single "combined science" course and a compulsory "technology" course. For which you choose one out of "textiles" (i.e. what we used to call sewing) "resistant materials" (what we used to call woodwork and metalwork) or "graphics" (what we used to call technical drawing)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I think it has been different Mousethief. I offer the following thoughts to ponder.
(1) Anecdotal: When I did history at school we looked at English history comprehensively ... right the way through ... and it wasn't just kings and queens either. By the time I took my High School exams at 16 we had done European history in the 19th century very comprehensively. In all the schools I have taught in during the last 10 years history has never been taught with this range and thoroughness.
(2) Church: (Church of England) Anglicans before the War knew their own history. They actually knew who Cranmer was (if only because they used his Liturgy). They had more than a passing acquaintance with Christian history in England ... if only post-Reformation. When I was ordained as an Anglican curate I used to do courses on liturgical development and history. The people I taught were relatively clueless about all of this.
(3) In a pre-literate culture history was communicated, absorbed and made part of culture through story-telling and poetry. Without being too romantic about this it was part and parcel of the culture of nationhood. In recent times the revulsion of PC thinkers against "Eurocentrism" and so-called colonial white imperial thinking has left many English speaking peoples relatively ignorant of their own traditions and historical legacy. This loss has been felt but has been expressed in a warped and sometimes racist manner. This has fuelled PC repression of western cultural history even more.
(4) Modernity good; Tradition bad. Need I say more?
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Ken ... I agree with that as well. Adeodatus' post is relevant on that trend. Even the New Scientist has upgraded and expanded its Technology section. Good hard science is struggling to find a place. Creative thinking has been replaced by that awful English obsession with gadgets and "how things work." There is an anti-intellectualism here as well ... witness the demise of philosophy and public debate about anuything other than economics or political interpretation / forecasting. Our culture ... liberal, humane and scientific is becoming impoverished .... and I haven't even considered religion which has been relegated to the private domain.
If we had a more vivid sense of our history ... SOME of this might not have been lost so easily.
[ 07. January 2004, 18:37: Message edited by: Fr. Gregory ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
But how many people got that level of education back then, Fr. G? Everybody in the country? Just the rich? Just the white? Just the uppermiddleclass?
There has never been a utopia, even a single-issue microutopia.
Which is not to say that we shouldn't aim for better education for our children. On that we are in agreement.
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Everyone has said it far, far better than I could, so I won't say it again! History and the other humanities are so sadly lacking - my grandson at his Manchester High School found so many constraints on what he chose to do for his GCSE's (national exams at 16+ for our US friends) that the only subject he could do that he really wanted to was Classical studies! And he's taking 10 subjects - all the others are compulsory.
Its interesting though that high quality extra-mural classes on historical themes are very popular, certainly in this part of the world, and are run in conjunction with Manchester University.
Nic
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Mousethief
I am elitist enough to know that not everyone could or should do history in the same way that I was able and willing to do it. However, the impoverishment of the history curriculum in Britain today is not limited to those who have never exposed to such things. It is a deficit for the academic students as well.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Nicodemia ... you took the words out of my mouth. (You have reminded me ... I will PM you now on your other question).
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Fr. Gregory
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
To be fair to Mr. Blair his approach to education only mirrors that of a woman he cleary admires a great deal - Margret Thatcher.
I am sure there was a time when education was acknowledged to have a point besides the getting of a "good" job. I am sure there are many of us who realise that education is useful because it helps people to participate in their communities and cultures more effectively, to have more self-confidence, to think, to know, to debate and to take an intrest in something outside their own narrow experiences. Perhaps, however, I am merely thinking wishfully.
Perhaps most people have fallen for the lies that the sole point of education is to serve the economy and that those of us who are lucky enough to go to university are the only people to benifit from our education in any way. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Perhaps they even think that a good degree automatically confers higher wages upon a person. They may even think that the moon is made out of blue cheese and that pigs can fly.
Actually, I am seriously considering a Master's Degree in Politics.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Yes, Papio ... you are quite correct. (Mousethief, please take note. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Capitalists and socialists can be both narrow minded materialists ... or not ... mileage varies).
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Education as something other than job training is an elitist pipe dream. It's nice when some people can swing it, but not many can.
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Education as something other than job training is an elitist pipe dream. It's nice when some people can swing it, but not many can.
Nonsense.
You are sugesting that when someone completes a degree in English, Theology, Politics, Sociology or any number of other alledgedly "useless" subjects then what they have to show for it = that they can stick at something for several years, they can meet deadlines, give presentations and find information and nothing else? Bilge.
Admittedly, further education is elitist in some senses, but perhaps I am enough of an elitist in this regard to think that a contempt for education on this basis is a trifle silly.
In what sense does a love and respect for education and an enjoyment of "book-learning" imply that you are too rich to need a job? It doesn't, does it?
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
... but all should ... and we can never giver up. How many libraries of Alexandria have to burn?
(You got there before me Papio. I was as frustrated and annoyed as you. Rwally Mousethief. I didn't think you were a cultural Philistine?! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ 07. January 2004, 20:06: Message edited by: Fr. Gregory ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
In what sense does a love and respect for education and an enjoyment of "book-learning" imply that you are too rich to need a job? It doesn't, does it?
Where did I say that?
I think that it is possible to combine a vocational education with self-indulgent (let's be frank) book-learning. I tried very hard to do so while I was at school. But:
1. how many can do so? to what level? who pays for it?
2. you rather seem to imply that those not interested in self-indulgent book learning are somehow less worthy than your good self. That's the type of elitism I can't stand.
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
In what sense does a love and respect for education and an enjoyment of "book-learning" imply that you are too rich to need a job? It doesn't, does it?
Where did I say that?
I think that it is possible to combine a vocational education with self-indulgent (let's be frank) book-learning. I tried very hard to do so while I was at school. But:
1. how many can do so? to what level? who pays for it?
2. you rather seem to imply that those not interested in self-indulgent book learning are somehow less worthy than your good self. That's the type of elitism I can't stand.
Wasn't that the implication of your previous post, even if you didn't actually say that?
1. Society should pay for higher education since society benifits from it and those with higher wages (regardless of whether they went to university) rightly pay more in tax in any case.
2. Do I? Where? What makes you say that?
and, to be frank, your implication that those of us who love to read are self-indulgent, self-important ninnies is fairly untenable.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Mousethief
I am very sad that you apparently think that "book learning" is self indulgent. Didn't do study philosophy? If I have misrepresented you or got that wrong, I'm sorry. Please put me right.
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Fr. Gregory
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ebor
Shipmate
# 5122
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Posted
Fr G. Think you are absolutely spot on.
The loss of subjects such as history, english lit, theology, philosophy and the classics will continue to impoverish the country. This will only be compounded by the present government's, policy on Higher Education. (I am reluctant to criticise the govt, as an Anglican priest I am naturally leftwing - so yes nothing to do with the present Labour administration!) These subjects enhance life, not only individual life, but the life of the country as a whole.
I minister in an outer council estate where books are few and far between, but I have seen poetry light up people's lives and a thirst for learning transform situations.
Mousethief, I am surprised that you cannot see beyond the physical image of education to what it is really about. Education can be iconic. It has been for me!
ebor
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Spot on, Fr G. Education should continue to be education - as the immortal Miss Jean Brodie said, a drawing-out of the human qualities of the student, not filling their heads with technical details (most of them obsolete within a year).
In practice, most 'vocational training' can be accomplished in the two or three years before students go looking for jobs. In fact, to leave it till then would be a great time-saver. What's the point of studying half a dozen vocationally-based 'subjects' for half a dozen years when you're only going to have one job at the end of it? (And generally find within the first six months that your 'vocational training' doesn't count tuppence anyway!)
If theology is queen of the sciences, history is the crown princess. It's a cliche, I know, but if you don't know where you've come from, how can you know where you're going? Another cliche - a political one this time - those who control the past control the future. It's in the interests of incompetent politicians that kids know as little as possible about the past, hence the decline of history. Or is that just my conspiracy theory?
I couldn't do without it. Anyway, there's so much great literature in history-writing: Livy, Suetonius, Gibbon (!?!), Trevelyan, Asa Briggs, John Julius Norwich .... *sighs and heads off towards bookshelf*
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
It's quite entertaining that in a rant about the standard of history education Father Gregory presents his own experience as the whole history of education.
As far as I am aware, universal state education in the UK was introduced because manufacturing technology demanded a more highly educated workforce. The subsequent periodic raising of the school leaving age was usually about massaging unemployment statistics.
My own historical education in primary and grammar school in the 1960s-1970s consisted of the ancient Egyptians, the feudal system, the six wives of Henry VIIIth, the Paris commune, the 2 World Wars and Stalin. There may have been more but that's all I remember. I had no idea what history was actually about till I recently started studying church history. My son is doing GCSE and he seems to have a much better grasp of the methodology than I had at his age.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
1. Society should pay for higher education since society benifits from it...
I disagree. I don't think society, as a whole, benefits from someone getting a PhD in some obscure field. That doesn't benefit society -- that's a personal choice to pursue that subject because it interests you. If you like it, knock yourself out. But you can put up for it your own self and not ride society's gravy train because you don't feel like getting a real job.
Besides, history is, to be honest, boring as hell.
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
1. Society should pay for higher education since society benifits from it...
I disagree. I don't think society, as a whole, benefits from someone getting a PhD in some obscure field. That doesn't benefit society -- that's a personal choice to pursue that subject because it interests you. If you like it, knock yourself out. But you can put up for it your own self and not ride society's gravy train because you don't feel like getting a real job.
Besides, history is, to be honest, boring as hell.
Yeah, fair enough. My statement was rather general and taken in conjunction with my statement that I intend to undertake a postgraduate course, I can see your point.
I do think that higher education very often benefits society as a whole and to reject that seems close to endorsing atomism. But, you are right, not every degree is equally useful and some seem to be very little use to society really. Such as a degree in David Beckham's haircuts ( I kid you not)!
My point was really that I think atomism is a load of BS, not that I have every right for your taxes to enable me to do whatever I want. I am not sure if it is legitimate (in purely theorectical terms) to speak of anyone having a "right" to an education but, in general, education is not something society can do without. Education is a collective good - it isn't something that can exist or that has a point apart from society.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
I am very sad that you apparently think that "book learning" is self indulgent. Didn't do study philosophy? If I have misrepresented you or got that wrong, I'm sorry. Please put me right.
You are correct, I have an MA in philosophy. Which I got because I enjoyed the subject and hoped to be a professor therein (which didn't turn out). Certainly not for any altruistic reasons.
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
This isn't a new problem, I recall reading an essay by C.S Lewis on this subject, as he was worried there was too much focus on vocational subjects, and not enough on subjects like English Literature. I'll have to look it out to find out his arguments in favour of the kind of subjects he taught.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Lurker, the essay you want is "On Learning in War-Time".
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Okay, I was close. It's "Learning in War Time" -- it's in The Weight of Glory.
Look, I'm not saying a case can't be made for the idea that all of society is better off when some members are philosophers, professors of medieval english, etc. etc. But the case isn't made simply by saying "I can't believe you think that way" neither does that make what philosophers et al. do anything other than self-indulgent.
Nobody goes into philosophy (I use this example because it's the one I'm most familiar with) for the sake of some vague improvement in the overall society. They go into philosophy because they love philosophy.
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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Besides, history is, to be honest, boring as hell.
Nonsense. History as taught in the average American high school, and in a good number of its colleges, is boring as hell.
That's because history is taught as "What happened when." What they don't teach, lest too many students actually become interested in history, is how you figure out what happened when, and how you sort through the disagreements of what happened when and what it meant.
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
And where exactly would society be without philosophers, sociologists, and politicians to form the modern governing structures (namely democracy) that society relies upon to function? The idea of everyone only learning practical skills to benefit society is simply Orwellian.
This is why I'm a monk. Monastics realized early on the spiritual benefit of joining the mind and the heart. Thus, the four points of a balanced life as outlined by my order, in an attempt to join the head and the heart, are prayer, study, work, and rest. Joining the head and the heart leads to self-knowledge. Monasticism is quick to point out that knowing God is only possible when one knows oneself. Less quickly acknowledged is that it is similarly impossible to know my neighbor without knowing myself. And how can I serve my neighbor if I do not know him/her?
Case in point. Education (in the US too) is very concerned with cross cultural understanding. This is a very good and important thing, especially in the pluralistic society in which we live. However, it is impossible for a person to understand and appreciate another culture if they do not understand and appreciate their own culture. In fact, without such understanding and appreciation, there is no "another culture" because that culture is the only one known. The emphasis acknowledged by Father Gregory on non-Eurocentric education means that those of us with a European backround are left with nary a clue as to our own culture and history.
Monasticism, especially in the Benedictine tradition, is known for its emphasis on study and learning. This is in the pursuit of self knowledge which leads to other knowledge, the combination of which is necessary for a person to be able to substantively contribute to society at large.
Yes, my generation is largely uninterested in voting and is generally apathetic. This is because most of my generation does not know itself and does not even want to. There is no desire to understand and know and better oneself, which ultimately does lead to the betterment of society.
If you earned a degree in philosophy without having the desire for self knowledge instilled deep within you, in my opinion, you should ask for your money back.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Phoenix_811
I agree wholeheartedly.
Dear Mousethief,
The idea that philosophy and other disciplines in the humanities has little impact on society would have sounded very strange to Greeks. On the other hand the Greeks had not whittled away their metaphysic to the smile on the proverbial Cheshire cat and replaced it with linguistics and existential ramblings. The impoverishment of WASP philosophy is a self fulfilling prophecy for those who see little practical use for it.
On a wider front I cannot accept that non-vocational education is a more or less inessential pastime for who wish to amuse themselves. I fear that much of what you and Erin seem to be saying just confirms my suspicions about the narrowing of WASP culture ... even if one isn't WASPish oneself ... the culture is. There's more to life than mending machines ... so there's more to education than mechanics.
[ 08. January 2004, 07:15: Message edited by: Fr. Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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ebor
Shipmate
# 5122
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Posted
I agree Fr. G!
The lack of properly educated cklergy within the CofE will be its downfall, not splits over women or gays (although one does effect the other).
I work with colleagues who know nothing of Luther and even less about the Fathers. It is as if the Church and secular society thinks it need no nothing of the wider canvass in which it was set.
Regarding society paying for education. Yes, I think it should. I did a PhD in New Testament studies (and paid for it by the sweat of my frau and other friends). Has it benefitted society. The subject matter may not; but it has definitely made be a rounder person, so I would like argue that society enjoys positive spinoffs.
What a sad place society will be if we only pay for things if we can see ££ or $$ signs as a result.
ebor
Posts: 180 | From: on the way to cumbria! | Registered: Oct 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
1. Society should pay for higher education since society benifits from it...
I disagree. I don't think society, as a whole, benefits from someone getting a PhD in some obscure field. That doesn't benefit society -- that's a person
I do. We all benefit hugely.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
If "vocational" education at high school age was so good, how come the well-off don't do it? They pay for their kids to get a decent general education, and leave the vocational bits till later.
But the poor are made to learn whatever the rich, or the government, or business, think that they ought to learn to serve them better.
And they nerly always get it wrong - secondary schools in Enbland are desperatly falling over each other to give less-academically minded chikldren the skills they need to survive in the 1980s.
Just as when I was at school in the 1960s and 70s many of us got taught the science and technology that would have fitted us very well to be air-force recruits in World War 2.
Schools shouldn't touch vocational education with a bargepole. They always get it wrong.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kyralessa:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Besides, history is, to be honest, boring as hell.
Nonsense. History as taught in the average American high school, and in a good number of its colleges, is boring as hell.
That's because history is taught as "What happened when." What they don't teach, lest too many students actually become interested in history, is how you figure out what happened when, and how you sort through the disagreements of what happened when and what it meant.
Nope. I actually had some good history teachers who did exactly the things you describe. My analysis is still the same: it's boring. Why should I be forced to learn something that puts me to sleep, or be sneered at a la Fregory and others on this thread because it doesn't interest me in the slightest?
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
1. Society should pay for higher education since society benifits from it...
I disagree. I don't think society, as a whole, benefits from someone getting a PhD in some obscure field. That doesn't benefit society -- that's a person
I do. We all benefit hugely.
Ante on up then. You can personally fund their educations since you see such a benefit.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
The idea that philosophy and other disciplines in the humanities has little impact on society would have sounded very strange to Greeks.
You're not listening to what I'm saying. I'm not saying that they don't impact society. I'm asking you and your fellow elitists to explain how and give proof. Which so far nobody has done.
I guess it's more fun to pitch and moan about how narrow-minded Erin and I are.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Dear Mousethief
OK ... so there's this Sartre guy. He's an atheist and an existentialist. He really respects the individual person and gives him a cosmic centrality in the scheme of things, otherwise absurd. French film makers, having read him at university, make films exploring these themes. People go and watch films and say: "Yeah, that really makes sense to me."
quote:
The unique experience of French film-makers was evident in their films. During the war France was an occupied country, unlike say England or the USA, and the experience of austerity and internal tensions, created by a population that in part resisted and in part collaborated with the Nazis, left a mark on the country's psyche. A distinctive philosophy - existentialism - evolved in France in the post-war years. This philosophy, associated with Jean-Paul Sartre and other French intellectuals, was a major influence on La Nouvelle Vague. Existentialism stressed the individual, the experience of free choice, the absence of any rational understanding of the universe and a sense of the absurdity in human life. Faced with an indifferent world an existentialist seeks to act authentically, using free will and taking responsibility for all their actions, instead of playing pre-ordained roles dictated by society. The characters in French New Wave films are often marginalized, young anti-heroes and loners, with no family ties, who behave spontaneously, often act immorally and are frequently seen as anti-authoritarian. There is a general cynicism concerning politics, often expressed as a disillusionment with foreign policy in Algeria or Indo-China. In Godard's A Bout de Souffle (1959) the protagonist kills and shows no remorse, while in Varda's Cléo de 5 á 7 (1961) the protagonist stops playing the roles others expect of her, when she discovers she has cancer, and starts to live authentically.
That's a quote from this essay on the French New Wave ...
"The French New Wave" by Stephen Nottingham
You asked for some evidence. There you are.
Dear Merryn
I am not sneering at you but I am saying that a dismissal of history is a failure of collective memory. It wasn't a personal comment at all. There are plenty of subjects we all found boring at school but which are absolutely vital to the human endeavour.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Ley Druid
Ship's chemist
# 3246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
1. Society should pay for higher education since society benifits from it...
I disagree. I don't think society, as a whole, benefits from someone getting a PhD in some obscure field. That doesn't benefit society -- that's a personal choice to pursue that subject because it interests you. If you like it, knock yourself out. But you can put up for it your own self and not ride society's gravy train because you don't feel like getting a real job.
If you are a taxpayer in the state of Florida, then I would personally like to thank you very much.
You just paid for my Ph.D.
You are presently paying for my post-doctoral training.
I'd explain what I've learned and what I do, but it's probably too obscure, of no benefit to society and you're so busy with your real job.
Posts: 1188 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory in response to Erin
I am not sneering at you but I am saying that a dismissal of history is a failure of collective memory. It wasn't a personal comment at all. There are plenty of subjects we all found boring at school but which are absolutely vital to the human endeavour.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) I personally found Maths quite dull but that doesn't mean it wouldn't matter if no-one could add up. History is collective conscience and memory (as you say, Fr. Gregory).
It helps us to understand who we are and where we are going. It grounds us. That doesn't mean every person has to become an expert in the subject (and Lord knows I'm not) but it does mean that a misguided attempt to make education "relavent" by scraping arts programmes makes about as much sense as a paper kettle with no spout.
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Infinite Penguins.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ley Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
1. Society should pay for higher education since society benifits from it...
I disagree. I don't think society, as a whole, benefits from someone getting a PhD in some obscure field. That doesn't benefit society -- that's a personal choice to pursue that subject because it interests you. If you like it, knock yourself out. But you can put up for it your own self and not ride society's gravy train because you don't feel like getting a real job.
If you are a taxpayer in the state of Florida, then I would personally like to thank you very much.
You just paid for my Ph.D.
You are presently paying for my post-doctoral training.
I'd explain what I've learned and what I do, but it's probably too obscure, of no benefit to society and you're so busy with your real job.
Clearly it wasn't in English or logic, and I want my money back.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Congratulations, Ley Druid. Why don't you go ahead and update your profile from "student" to "research associate" or whatever the correct category is.
I'm not sure who's paying for my training, but it isn't me. Of course, my work is going to cure cancer and solve global warming so it's money well spent.
Wish me luck.
By the way, it does bother me a lot that humanities cost so much money. It bothers me that people who want to formally study it under an expert in order to stimulate and perhaps improve their quality of life often can't afford to do it. Society probably can't afford to give everybody as much as they want and I have no idea how much they really truly "need" if any at all. But I find that the scientists and students around me who pretend publically that they couldn't care less about "social issues" are doing things in their spare time like translating English articles on the Palestinian question into Korean because it reminds them of their grandparent's stories about Korea being colonized by the Japanese. Funny that I discovered that about my new officemate the day after I made my last post here on the "Palestinian question." I told my officemate that my personal interest came from my father still calling Arabs "towelheads." We had a nice non-scientific chat. Maybe that's the way it should be.
But we probably should have been working. Or not?
Despite some conservative credentials, I never really lost sight of the fact that there is three quarters of a trillion dollars in global benefit waiting for humankind when and if we can agree to fighting each other with words instead of guns. Here's the proof. That should pay for a few humanites electives at least.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Ley Druid
Ship's chemist
# 3246
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Posted
Thank you JimT. If there's NIH or NSF money around, then you can brag that Erin is also paying for you too. Best of Luck.
Posts: 1188 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
I am not sure if it is legitimate (in purely theorectical terms) to speak of anyone having a "right" to an education but, in general, education is not something society can do without. Education is a collective good - it isn't something that can exist or that has a point apart from society.
Ben - everyone has a right to an education, see the UN declaration of human rights, Article 26.
quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
If "vocational" education at high school age was so good, how come the well-off don't do it? They pay for their kids to get a decent general education, and leave the vocational bits till later.
But the poor are made to learn whatever the rich, or the government, or business, think that they ought to learn to serve them better.
And they nerly always get it wrong - secondary schools in Enbland are desperatly falling over each other to give less-academically minded chikldren the skills they need to survive in the 1980s.
Schools shouldn't touch vocational education with a bargepole. They always get it wrong.
Ken, vocational courses are getting better in schools and more schools are seeing that they are a good thing to teach. I disagree that schools should not touch vocational education, if schools don't teach them who will?
There are some pupils who cannot cope with a usual A level or GCSE course. We need to teach these pupils vocational and life skills but this is still a relatively new thing in schools. Schools are still trying to work out the best way of teaching them. A levels have been around for a long time now, but GNVQ's and vocational A levels are still relatively new. There are bound to be problems.
Tom
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My allotment blog
Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I think I may have to go back on something I said earlier.
Education is, and always has been, the province of the privileged. The idea that it is not is a very new phenomenon -- up until very recently, if you learned to read and write you were ahead of the game. I think education was only looked at seriously once children could no longer toil in the mines for twenty hours a day. Gotta give the brats something to do, right?
So public education for the non-elite was put in place to equip people for the job market upon reaching adulthood. That's it. That's what it was designed to do then and what it is designed to do now. I'm not sure about the UK, but it is not my experience that US college students are immersed in some ivy-walled tower of academia -- they're there to learn what they need to learn to have a decent house and support the rugrats they'll be spawning in a few years.
Cast in this light, the complaints in the OP sound like "the proles have tainted our beloved educational institution". Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's the reality. Humanity, as a whole, doesn't have time for half the population to go off in search of some obscure, dead language. You -- every single one of you -- have to food on the table. The majority of the effort behind that comes from people who have maybe a high school education. You -- every single one of you -- need a place to go when you are sick. Sure, the doctors and some of the other allied technical staff have spent years learning their craft, but a majority of the people who work in a health care facility have, again, a high school education or the equivalent.
If you want to live in the comfort to which you are accustomed, you need to learn that the world is run by the mediocre, who think higher education is boring. If you don't think that, you try surviving this world surrounded by PhDs who share your desire to be in school for the rest of their lives. You can't do it, and that's the bottom line -- we can survive without you. You can't survive without us.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Merryn
quote:
Cast in this light, the complaints in the OP sound like "the proles have tainted our beloved educational institution". Maybe that's not what you meant,
No, I meant no such thing. I am simply saying that everyone is entitled to a broad liberal education. I am delighted that some go vocational and some go PhD. What I can't accept is that one kind is better or more important than the other.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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