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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A Taste for Bunkum
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ebor
Shipmate
# 5122
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Posted
I am not sure that it is correct to argue that education is the domain of the privileged alone.
I am reading a fascinating book
J Rose, The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes (London: Yale UP, 2001)ISBN 0-300-08886-8
Rose chronicles the influences of education of the so-called working classes (a misnomer perhaps today, but not then). He charts that when given the opportunity people who are from less privileged backgrounds do not shun 'non-vocational' subjects but have a thirst for knowledge.
Indeed it is certainly true that for the British working classes, one of the ways out of poverty was seen as being through education.
When this happens that which is learnt is not bunkum but life-giving
ebor
Posts: 180 | From: on the way to cumbria! | Registered: Oct 2003
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Ley Druid
Ship's chemist
# 3246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If you want to live in the comfort to which you are accustomed, you need to learn that the world is run by the mediocre, who think higher education is boring. If you don't think that, you try surviving this world surrounded by PhDs who share your desire to be in school for the rest of their lives. You can't do it, and that's the bottom line -- we can survive without you. You can't survive without us.
The annual conference for the Society for Neuroscience brings together over 30,000 people. My boss mused about what a city of 30,000 neuroscientists would be like. I asked him who would take out the garbage. Without hesitation he responded "the graduate students, of course!"
By definition the powerful run the world. If they have convinced Erin and others that "world is run by the mediocre, who think higher education is boring", then they are powerful indeed, and have little need to provide other education than this simple lesson.
Posts: 1188 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Would that be the Illuminati, Ley Druid?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
I am not sure if it is legitimate (in purely theorectical terms) to speak of anyone having a "right" to an education but, in general, education is not something society can do without. Education is a collective good - it isn't something that can exist or that has a point apart from society.
Ben - everyone has a right to an education, see the UN declaration of human rights, Article 26.
quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
If "vocational" education at high school age was so good, how come the well-off don't do it? They pay for their kids to get a decent general education, and leave the vocational bits till later.
But the poor are made to learn whatever the rich, or the government, or business, think that they ought to learn to serve them better.
And they nerly always get it wrong - secondary schools in Enbland are desperatly falling over each other to give less-academically minded chikldren the skills they need to survive in the 1980s.
Schools shouldn't touch vocational education with a bargepole. They always get it wrong.
Ken, vocational courses are getting better in schools and more schools are seeing that they are a good thing to teach. I disagree that schools should not touch vocational education, if schools don't teach them who will?
There are some pupils who cannot cope with a usual A level or GCSE course. We need to teach these pupils vocational and life skills but this is still a relatively new thing in schools. Schools are still trying to work out the best way of teaching them. A levels have been around for a long time now, but GNVQ's and vocational A levels are still relatively new. There are bound to be problems.
Tom
I meant morally, not legally. Tom - let's hope Tony bloody Blair loses the vote in top-up fee's. He deserves to.
quote:
Originally posted by Erin
If you want to live in the comfort to which you are accustomed, you need to learn that the world is run by the mediocre, who think higher education is boring. If you don't think that, you try surviving this world surrounded by PhDs who share your desire to be in school for the rest of their lives. You can't do it, and that's the bottom line -- we can survive without you. You can't survive without us.
Palpable and utter bollocks. Firstly, I do think that and am not surrounded by Ph. D's. It is obvious - totally and utterly - that education benefits everyone. Secondly, let's see the world survive without vicars, medicals, lawyers, mechanics, teachers, tutors etc etc etc. Good luck!!!!
Education is important. more important than whether or not some amoral, selfish bollocks company like McDonalds makes a profit or not.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
Secondly, let's see the world survive without vicars, medicals, lawyers, mechanics, teachers, tutors etc etc etc. Good luck!!!!
It did. For a very long time. Or haven't you studied your history?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
Secondly, let's see the world survive without vicars, medicals, lawyers, mechanics, teachers, tutors etc etc etc. Good luck!!!!
It did. For a very long time. Or haven't you studied your history?
But the world has moved on a tad, no? and where did i say I was an expert in history? I seem to remember saying the very opposite?
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Lurker, the essay you want is "On Learning in War-Time".
Thanks, Mousethief, but I still can't find it. I think I lent the book to someone in my church.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
vocational courses are getting better in schools and more schools are seeing that they are a good thing to teach. I disagree that schools should not touch vocational education, if schools don't teach them who will?
Jobs are getting more diverse. Schools can't hope to teach the skills needed for most individual jobs any more.
Also curriculum development inevitably lags a few years behind the job market. If certain skills are in short supply now, it would take a year or two at least before courses could be developed to teach them in school. More likely four or fice. Curriculums have to be designed, developed, approved, piloted. Course materials, textbooks and so on, need to be produced. Teachers themselves need to be trained. It would probably be 5 to 10 years before a significant number of kids who had done the course were joining the job market.
quote:
There are some pupils who cannot cope with a usual A level or GCSE course. We need to teach these pupils vocational and life skills but this is still a relatively new thing in schools.
Actually they are a very old thing in schools! But "life skills" aren't the same as vocational education, i.e. job training.
Whatever "life skills" are, they are probably a good idea to have them in schools. And they probably will help getting jobs later. But that's very different from training for particular jobs
quote:
Schools are still trying to work out the best way of teaching them. A levels have been around for a long time now, but GNVQ's and vocational A levels are still relatively new. There are bound to be problems.
GNVQs are a joke. Sorry, but they are. No-one outside education much cares a damn about them. Even teachers call the kids who get them "Generally Not Very Qualified". Though not to their faces.
If a 15 or 16 year old really isn't suited to academic study, whether through temperament or ability or choice; and if they already have the basics of general education such as reading and simple arithmetic; and if school isn't doing anything for them; and if they really do want to improve their chances of getting a good job in the long run, the best thing to do is to go out and get a job and learn by doing.
Training and education are very different things. In some respects they are opposed. Training is about closing down alternatives, getting people to do things this way rather thatn that way. Education is about opening up choice.
Kids in school deserve to be offered the best general eduction we can give them. If they can't, or won't, proceed any further with that, school might not be the place for them. But we shouldn't be fobbing them off with outdated training for vanishing jobs.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ebor:
J Rose, The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes (London: Yale UP, 2001)ISBN 0-300-08886-8
Rose chronicles the influences of education of the so-called working classes (a misnomer perhaps today, but not then). He charts that when given the opportunity people who are from less privileged backgrounds do not shun 'non-vocational' subjects but have a thirst for knowledge.
I work at Birkbeck College in the University of London, which grew out of one of the "Mechanic's Institutes" founded to provide education to working people in the 19th century. Birkbeck is Britain's (maybe the world's) most academically distinguished adult education college.
Last year I went to alecture on the history of the College and adult education. One of the main points was that for its whole existence there has been pressure from the College authorities and from government to provide more business-oriented "useful" courses, but that many of the students want more academic courses.
Government looks on adult education as a way of fitting people for jobs - but not all, or even most, of the students do.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Ken
quote:
Training is about closing down alternatives, getting people to do things this way rather that that way. Education is about opening up choice.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Singularly one of the most important things that has been said on this thread.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Training is about closing down alternatives, getting people to do things this way rather thatn that way. Education is about opening up choice.
Yeah, I wouldn't want anyone trained offering me medical treatment, flying my plane or defending my country. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Training is about closing down alternatives, getting people to do things this way rather thatn that way. Education is about opening up choice.
Yeah, I wouldn't want anyone trained offering me medical treatment, flying my plane or defending my country.
Yes, but we're talking about schoolkids here. 12, 13, 14, 15 years old. Do you want their teachers to decide for them at that age that they are going to grow up to do those things?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
This is a bit of as straw person, ken. You have made a blanket statement that education and training are in many ways opposites, I am merely pointing out that training has its uses.
In fact, I don't think you can separate education and training. If you want to particularise it to school age children, I would say teachers have to do quite a lot of training before education can take place, and always have done, e.g. writing an essay, taking notes, listening and remembering accurately, pronunciation of languages, correct procedures in laboratories etc. Similarly, there is a lot of educational content in vocational courses (which is what you seem to mean by 'training'.) When I taught in an FE college a lot of my time was spent helping students aged 16-19 on vocational courses with the educational components of their courses. 'Vocational' courses are not merely practical instruction courses.
Public schools have always had a strong emphasis on sports and cadet corps as part of the educational experience, I presume these activities also encompass an element of 'training'!
Incidentally, my son is doing a higher level GNVQ in computing and ITC which is the equivalent of 2 GCSEs and is only open to children who are deemed able to cope with the work. It's news to me that teachers hold them in such low regard.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Not all of us .... but I am not sure what the attitude of employers is .... not that I fret too much about whether the employment sector is happy with us or not. Most employers want reasonable numeracy and literacy, social skills, problem solving, a good personality, initiative and drive. You have not said everything there is to say about education when you have said that.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
Public schools have always had a strong emphasis on sports and cadet corps as part of the educational experience, I presume these activities also encompass an element of 'training'!
No, they are a means of social control by enouraging the majority to humiliate and mock those who are weaker than they are.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ley Druid
Ship's chemist
# 3246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Would that be the Illuminati, Ley Druid?
They might be people with whom you are not familiar.
They might not be mediocre
They might not quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
think higher education is boring
By the way, where did you learn that
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
world is run by the mediocre, who think higher education is boring
Is this the product of your education or lack thereof? You suggested that
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If you want to live in the comfort to which you are accustomed, you need to learn that the world is run by the mediocre, who think higher education is boring.
What sort of education and/or training would you advocate to learn this necessary lesson?
Posts: 1188 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
And why should taxpayers subsidize wealthy, profit-making corporations by having public schools train their employees for them?
Humanities and social sciences are dangerous and subversive because they make people aware that things have not always been the way they are, so they might not have to continue being the way they are. Ever since education began to be extended to the masses, there's been a fear it would give the lower orders ideas above their station. This is as true in America as anywhere else, even if we have different ways of talking about it now.
Timothy
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
Public schools have always had a strong emphasis on sports and cadet corps as part of the educational experience, I presume these activities also encompass an element of 'training'!
No, they are a means of social control by enouraging the majority to humiliate and mock those who are weaker than they are.
You'e missing the point, ken, this is simply not an answer to my comment.
The activities I have mentioned may well be what you say, but that does not affect the fact that they do contain a large elemetn of 'training'. This suggests that 'training' is regarded as educational by the sort of schools which turn out, and in the past turned out the vast majority of, the type of people that go to 'good' universities and study humanities in the form of classics, philosophy, history etc. This would indicate that 'training' as you define it - telling people how to do specific tasks with no element of choice - has long been regarded as complementary to, not inimical to, the sort of education that Father Gregory and others have been regretting as lost to this generation. I think classical Greek education was based on similar lines wasn't it?
I woud also dispute that the sort of vocational courses that have been mentioned are 'training' in the sense that learning drill or practising sports are 'training', but that is a separate issue.
['A spearate issue'?????]
[ 09. January 2004, 17:20: Message edited by: Arrietty ]
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ley Druid:
blah blah blah blah. blah blah.
I was trying to ascertain the identities of the powerful who run your world.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Ley Druid
Ship's chemist
# 3246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ley Druid:
blah blah blah blah. blah blah.
I was trying to ascertain the identities of the powerful who run your world.
Do you think it is possible for quote:
Orignially posted by Erin:
the mediocre, who think higher education is boring
to ascertain these identities? Has your higher education, or lack thereof, helped or hindered you?
Posts: 1188 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
Public schools have always had a strong emphasis on sports and cadet corps as part of the educational experience, I presume these activities also encompass an element of 'training'!
No, they are a means of social control by enouraging the majority to humiliate and mock those who are weaker than they are.
And there was me thinking they contained valuable lessons about teamwork and sportsmanship, as well as keeping kids fit.
How depressing it is to discover that all along they were just a means for the weak to be victimised.
Thank God Nintendo, Sega, Sony et al are working so hard to save our children from the tyranny of fresh air and sport.
[I wish I could spel]
[ 09. January 2004, 20:16: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ley Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ley Druid:
blah blah blah blah. blah blah.
I was trying to ascertain the identities of the powerful who run your world.
Do you think it is possible for quote:
Orignially posted by Erin:
the mediocre, who think higher education is boring
to ascertain these identities? Has your higher education, or lack thereof, helped or hindered you?
You, one of the educational elite, made the claim, sunshine. As such it's up to you to provide the details.
Clearly your advanced degree has nothing to do with communications, either.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
I think everyone should be taught to read, write and balance a checkbook. Additionally, all students up to age 16 should be force-fed lots and lots of history, geography and languages, both living and dead. History and geography are not adequately taught in public schools.
People who are not academically inclined should be able to switch to training for some sort of useful vocation earlier.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ley Druid
Ship's chemist
# 3246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ley Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Ley Druid:
blah blah blah blah. blah blah.
I was trying to ascertain the identities of the powerful who run your world.
Do you think it is possible for quote:
Orignially posted by Erin:
the mediocre, who think higher education is boring
to ascertain these identities? Has your higher education, or lack thereof, helped or hindered you?
You, one of the educational elite, made the claim, sunshine. As such it's up to you to provide the details.
Clearly your advanced degree has nothing to do with communications, either.
I don't apply labels to people like "mediocre" or "the educational elite". You seem to.
If knowledge and education helped empower people, then denying them the same knowledge and education could help disempower them.
Do you think that the idea that
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
the world is run by the mediocre, who think higher education is boring
helps or hinders the empowerment of those who you label "mediocre"?
Why do you think it's so hard nowadays to convince young black males of the value of education? Has your education or lack thereof helped or hindered your understanding of this phenomenon in the African-American community?
[ 09. January 2004, 22:18: Message edited by: Ley Druid ]
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David Weaver
Apprentice
# 300
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Posted
Why don't we all just go back to being hunter gathers and stop this silly argument right now?
Seriously though, last year I obtained my degree in computer science and philosophy. I have yet to find work in either of those areas - was it worth me studying my degree? (given that it cost me around 13,000 punds sterling (sorry my acient computer doesn't do pound signs). I have no interest in being one of the elite - and the illuminati turned down my application to join them as I didn't get a 2.1.
I studied philosophy, because I thought it could answer questions which other academic disciplines couldn't. Questions concerning ethics for example seem very relevent to todays society but I doubt placing the average young offender on a philosophy 101 course would cut crime rates for example. Is it better or worse for me to have studied this than plumbing, or was it simply a waste of time and money? What about the computer science side of my course? It was taught academically rather than vocationally, so does that make it mere intellectual onanism?
I know I have posed more questions than answers - but I genuinely want to know what people think. Most of the people I knew at university were studying medically related subjects with strong vocational application who tended to frown on my degree - Were they right to do so?
David
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Shake down 1979,
Cool kids never have the time...
Posts: 12 | From: Liverpool/North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Don't ask me, I studied religion, ancient dead languages and medieval history before going to law school for more of the same.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Ley Druid, I asked you a question you have yet to answer. Instead you bleat on and on. Until you actually answer my question, you're wasting your time, my bandwidth and Simon's server space posing questions to me.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
For the sake of clarity, I am defining Education as the institutional reality of education as exemplified in schools while education is the ideal of education as it has been defined by FG and others in an ideal sense. Thus:
quote:
Training is about closing down alternatives, getting people to do things this way rather that that way. Education is about opening up choice.
I think what is being said is that education is about opening up choice. Education is blend of training and education.
Thus:
quote:
Yeah, I wouldn't want anyone trained offering me medical treatment, flying my plane or defending my country.
Actually, you wouldn't. You would want them to receive an Education which includes elements of training which allow them to do their job by closing down the wrong options as to, for example, how to fly a plane. At the same time, you would want them to receive an education so that options are open as to how to change tactics when the plane is about to crash so that it lands safely.
I think several people have been trying to say this but they have been so busy being witty and sarcastic that we have had several rather redundant posts.
quote:
I studied philosophy, because I thought it could answer questions which other academic disciplines couldn't.
In my philosophical studies, I learned that philosophy does not teach one the answers to such questions, but teaches one how to ask the questions and how to go about searching for the answers. Philosophy is not about answers, it is about questions.
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"Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi
Posts: 487 | From: the state of confusion | Registered: Jun 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by phoenix_811:
If you earned a degree in philosophy without having the desire for self knowledge instilled deep within you, in my opinion, you should ask for your money back.
What an incredible leap of logic. Because I recognize that higher education is elitist and nobody goes into it for altruistic reasons, I must therefore have no desire for self-knowledge.
May I suggest a logic course or two? I think all society will benefit if you learn not to make such irrational conclusions.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Father G: people enjoying movies is a pretty thin foundation for the entire edifice of higher education, isn't it? How many people can enjoy those movies, anyway? I'm not sure you're helping your cause any arguing this line. French existential movies are far, far more an elitist pleasure than a general education.
quote:
Originally posted by phoenix_811:
Philosophy is not about answers, it is about questions.
And questions are about, um, um, um,....
Hang on; I'll think of it....
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
Congradulations, you just proved my point. To my satisfaction anyway.
Ciao.
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"Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi
Posts: 487 | From: the state of confusion | Registered: Jun 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by phoenix_811:
Congradulations, you just proved my point. To my satisfaction anyway.
Pity they didn't teach you to spell.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ebor
Shipmate
# 5122
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Posted
No one goes into HE for altruistic reasons...
I would have thought, Mousethief, that you would not be able to justify that position.
What about in the UK where the University of the Third Age is still growing rapidly: older people learning, not to make money, but for self-development.
And there are of course sufficient number of people studying theology for vocational reasons: not to make money, but to deepen their understanding of God.
Education is elitist? What about the OU? Has it completely failed in its raison d'etre?
I ask whether I am now elitist having had a tertiary education. I would not have gone without a full grant. Why? Not because of the lack of ability. I was the first in my family ever to go to University. I don't think I am actually elitist, although perhaps my siblings would say that the educative process has changed me.
You raise more questions that you have answers for, my friend. This is not a problem, except that you look like are sticking up the proverbial two fingers at the countless numbers of students who are in HE because of a desire to know more, to become more aware of themselves - and I am sure that you do not intend to that...
ebor
Posts: 180 | From: on the way to cumbria! | Registered: Oct 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
No Mousethief ... I don't care whether you think such movies are ephemeral, elitist or anything else, (that could could just as well reflect the difference between American and French popular culture ... French cinema doesn't tend to go in for saving-the-world-blockbusters). You challenged me to give an example of the relevance, that is, a connection, between, say, philosophy and culture. I did.
Everytime you encounter something in a post that suggests that something may be worthwhile notwithstanding the fact that it may not have mass appeal you use (overuse) the PC curse, "elitist." Why? Don't you think you're "over-egging the omelette"? Must education only deal with the pedestrian and the universal? How can such a reductionalist, functionalist view of education enrich our culture? I have to ask an impertinent question because I am losing patience with the elitist mantra. Have you been over-influenced by your own experience in academia?
[ 10. January 2004, 08:08: Message edited by: Fr. Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ebor:
No one goes into HE for altruistic reasons...
I would have thought, Mousethief, that you would not be able to justify that position.
What about in the UK where the University of the Third Age is still growing rapidly: older people learning, not to make money, but for self-development.
Self-development is altruistic? This is clearly a new use of the word "altruistic" with which I was not previously familiar.
quote:
And there are of course sufficient number of people studying theology for vocational reasons: not to make money, but to deepen their understanding of God.
Same applies here
quote:
Education is elitist? What about the OU? Has it completely failed in its raison d'etre?
The what? I'm sorry but the only meaning for the acronym "OU" that I can think of is "Oregon University".
quote:
You raise more questions that you have answers for, my friend.
Well duh. I'm asking YOU GUYS for the answers because you're the ones who believe something I don't. I'd likey y'all to justify your position. So far you haven't; you've just insulted me and made "but it's obvious" noises. No it's not obvious.
quote:
This is not a problem, except that you look like are sticking up the proverbial two fingers at the countless numbers of students who are in HE because of a desire to know more, to become more aware of themselves - and I am sure that you do not intend to that...
I'm sticking up finger(s) at people who say that people becoming more aware of themselves, desiring to know more, etc., are ipso facto doing so in order to improve society. Or that their doing so somehow makes ALL of us better off. Surely it makes them better off; I've never denied that nor said anything of the sort.
Father Gregory:
You said or implied that having some people go into higher education improves society for EVERYBODY. Showing that a tiny number of people like French existentialist films doesn't show how society is improved for EVERYBODY. Hence the elitist barb. You haven't done anything like give evidence for your grandiose claim, nor has anybody else who supports you in this. So far what I see is higher education by the few, of the few, and for the few. Forgive me if I call that elitist. I don't know a better sobriquet.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
OK Mousethief. Let the whole human race not reach for the stars, not consider anything more pedestrian other than to explain how to make this or make that. I can't make anything. Does that make "makers" elitist? Of course not. Now switch boots.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Education is elitist? What about the OU? Has it completely failed in its raison d'etre?
The what? I'm sorry but the only meaning for the acronym "OU" that I can think of is "Oregon University".
OU = Open University. It offers postal courses within the UK for those who cannot (or will not) go to a "regular" university. It is thus for all, and I imagine it will grow in prominence when top up fees are introduced next year.
AFAIK, it's degrees are of equal value to any other university's.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ebor:
No one goes into HE for altruistic reasons...
I would have thought, Mousethief, that you would not be able to justify that position.
What about in the UK where the University of the Third Age is still growing rapidly: older people learning, not to make money, but for self-development.
And there are of course sufficient number of people studying theology for vocational reasons: not to make money, but to deepen their understanding of God.
You raise more questions that you have answers for, my friend. This is not a problem, except that you look like are sticking up the proverbial two fingers at the countless numbers of students who are in HE because of a desire to know more, to become more aware of themselves - and I am sure that you do not intend to that...
ebor
And in what way are any of these reasons altruistic?
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
What an incredible leap of logic. Because I recognize that higher education is elitist and nobody goes into it for altruistic reasons, I must therefore have no desire for self-knowledge.
May I suggest a logic course or two? I think all society will benefit if you learn not to make such irrational conclusions.
yay! I teach logic and thinking skills. they are *so* important - anyone want to send business my way?! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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ebor
Shipmate
# 5122
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Posted
Come on Mousethief, what way have we insulted you?
I admit that my definition of altruism was little too Anglican (i.e, broad).
I still don't think that people who study for their self-development or for vocational reasons should be regarded as elitist.
I understand elitist as a negative word..., and perhaps you do not.
ebor
Posts: 180 | From: on the way to cumbria! | Registered: Oct 2003
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
Erin - Good to know you know the difference between the powerful (who ipso facto run the world)- and most of them seem to be well educated (for all we laugh at Bush, he does have a degree from a good university), the Mediocre who maintain it- there is a difference, the innovators who try to improve it materially (and almost all tend to be highly educated- it is far easier in most cases to innovate if you know the options and understand the reasoning behind them rather than having to re-invent the wheel) and the visionaries (who also try to improve the world- and again it is advantageous if they are well educated as it gives them a better overview of what they are trying to improve).
As for surviving without the mediocre, yes- but without the educated and innovative, no one would survive half so well (I don't want to go back to hunter-gathering- do you?)
When it comes to deconstructing altruism, you reach the point at which altruism doesn't exist because you get an emotional reward for every act of charity.
One thing that I do regret is that you Americans don't either have (relatively) free education, thus opening up more to the less well off or an equivalent to the Open University.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ebor:
I understand elitist as a negative word...,
Many do, but would you care to explain why? Also would you care to explain how the [insert sports team of choice] isn't elitist?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Forgive me if I intervene but I want to say that elitism is not necessarily all bad.
Elitism of excellence is vital but instantly vitiated by pride ... in any sphere of endeavour. Elitism of class or privilege through birth or wealth is foul.
However, to pretend that everyone is equally able is unscientific and betrays an ideological a priori position. The trouble is that excellence per se in any given field is invariably contaminated by selfishness or self orientated concerns. That's why holiness is so vital and not just skill or ability. Many highly competent and intelligent people have been a curse for humanity.
"Secular" education that sidelines development of the whole person is monstrous and demeaning to the human spirit. You cannot pretend that education can function properly without spiritual values. That's why countries that rigidly separate Church and State are not truly free. (Awaiting the missiles from across the Atlantic). By eschewing one tyranny (monochrome established religion) these societies create another (an impoverishment of the Spirit in the field of human knowledge).
[ 10. January 2004, 23:28: Message edited by: Fr. Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
Fr. G.
No missiles here. Just a bit of clarification. The separation of church and state issue has not affected the spiritual development of those of us who have actively gone out and sought it. I guess it comes down to whether you see education as solely something provided by the government (in the case of public education in the US) and thus wholly secular, or something that is sought out, in which case the education provided by the government is only one component. I hope that makes sense. Maybe an example will help. In high school, I actively participated in my church youth group and went to Sunday School, two parts of education not provided by the public school system. Now that I'm in college (a secular, private school) I still find opportunities, through class selection and campus organizations and religious groups in the community, to help me develop spiritually. I think that's the whole idea of separation of church and state, that one is allowed to seek out one's own spiritual development as opposed to having it provided by the government. The down side is that it is not required and is thus often neglected entirely. This is how we end up with Enron, et al.
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"Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi
Posts: 487 | From: the state of confusion | Registered: Jun 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
That's why countries that rigidly separate Church and State are not truly free. (Awaiting the missiles from across the Atlantic.)
Actually, I don't know about that. I believe that spirituality is much, much more vibrant and alive in the US than it is in the UK, simply because the state hasn't taken it over and turned it into yet another bureaucracy. I believe that forced spirituality is neither beneficial nor valid.
[ 11. January 2004, 00:06: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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ebor
Shipmate
# 5122
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Posted
Why do I see elitism as negative?
Probably because as a working class kid from Full Monty country, I have an inherent bias against people born into privilege and/or money.
The short answer is that I do so because I am an opinionated git...
and also because I think elitism is anathema to the Gospel
ebor
Posts: 180 | From: on the way to cumbria! | Registered: Oct 2003
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ebor:
Why do I see elitism as negative?
Probably because as a working class kid from Full Monty country, I have an inherent bias against people born into privilege and/or money.
So the aristocracy of birth is the only one you recognise? It is, I'll grant, a bad one- but all sports teams are elitist, as are all other groups working any where near the frontiers of human capability or any centres of excellence.
quote:
The short answer is that I do so because I am an opinionated git...
and also because I think elitism is anathema to the Gospel
ebor
And the 12 apostles aren't an elite? Bishops aren't an elite? The OT prophets aren't an elite?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Training is about closing down alternatives, getting people to do things this way rather thatn that way. Education is about opening up choice.
Yeah, I wouldn't want anyone trained offering me medical treatment, flying my plane or defending my country.
To add support to Ken's point, intellegence is what you use when you don't have knowledge. The purpose of training is to give people the necessary knowledge to do their job. The purpose of education is to increase their effective intellegence so that they can gain knowledge in a hurry, can get by on less complete knowledge in a variety of circumstances, to increase their knowledge base in related situations to allow them more modifiable solutions and to increase their effective intellegence[1] so they can see solutions to unexpected problems more easily.
Yes, you want them trained- but you also want them educated when they are in a situation that could go wrong (and no plan survives first contact with the enemy).
To be competant, you need a little education and some training, to be good you need more education and very little more training. Most of the time, competant is good enough.
[1] I don't want to get into whether intellegence is increased by education or simply appears to be- or whether there is a difference. It is IME effectively increased by education, whatever else happens.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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ebor
Shipmate
# 5122
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Posted
The OT Prophets and the 12 Apostles were supposed to be servants not members of an elite club. The Apostles were considered the refuse of the earth.
The fact that Bishops sometimes do not act like servants is an anathema to the Gospel, but that is a topic for another thread...
ebor
Posts: 180 | From: on the way to cumbria! | Registered: Oct 2003
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
Secondly, let's see the world survive without vicars, medicals, lawyers, mechanics, teachers, tutors etc etc etc. Good luck!!!!
It did. For a very long time. Or haven't you studied your history?
I'm not sure about that.
Early societies woould have had a shamn, herb-lore people, tool makers/users, teachers.
What is it with humans??
You can be an expert sportsperson and be accorded supermoney, superadulation and respect but be an expert brainy person and you're "elitist / geek / "get-a-life".
Why do we not honour thinkers??
Of course higher education requires evidence of high ability in learning.
So do the AA (note for our pals across the Pond; motoring organisation who operate an emergency help to motorists whose cars have conked out). They take less than 10% of the applicants, but you don't hear of folk screaming "unfair and elitist" about that.
On the contrary, there'd be no support for the AA if they didn't employ the best, so the business would fail.
So will universities if we don't keep them "elitist". As in "those with the best brain" in the area of book learning and abstract thinking.
We need everyone in society. We need binmen, printers, engineers, flower growers etc etc.
I would be useless as an artist in any field, or as a butcher, or as a carpenter.
But I acknowledge that. I don't go around moaning that they've got a skill I haven't, so it's "elitist".
It's how we're made.
It's called "different, unique".
We should thank god for it and stop moaning about the thinkers in our world.
[Edited mystery UBB in quote]
[ 11. January 2004, 23:08: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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