Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A Taste for Bunkum
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Well, so far as I am concerned America is welcome to take whatever attitude to higher education and/or atomism it pleases. Whatever.
Virtually no-one in Britain (with the possible exception of Tony Blair) wants an American-style higher education system. That isn't an insult to America. That is just how it is. I'm not saying American universities aren't good at what they do, they clearly are, but bully for them.
There is a funding crisis in British universities (unless you think that most degrees are a total waste of time of course) but, despite the fact that some here claim that there is no evidence that arts education benefits society as a whole, I have yet to see any evidence that it doesn't.
Like Fr. Gregory, I am saddened and really quite astonished by some of the views on this thread. Anyway, I have a self-indulgent and totally pointless essay to finish. At the end of the day, I don't really care what a bunch of people I have never met think of my degree. I'm done with this thread.
-------------------- Infinite Penguins. My "Readit, Swapit" page My "LibraryThing" page
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr. Gregory: For me this is even sadder in the context of a Christian ecumenical forum where I might have expected a more positive cultural evaluation of the worth of the humanities.
Oh! Oh! How sad! People aren't in lockstep agreement with Fr. G. in his elitist attitude toward higher education! And I thought this was a Christian Website!
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Thank God Nintendo, Sega, Sony et al are working so hard to save our children from the tyranny of fresh air and sport.
Yes, thank God.
quote:
[I wish I could spel]
If you'd spent less time playing sport perhaps you'd have learned.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
This post is probably going to sound elitist and nasty and very, very, self-serving, and not at all altruistic. It's a Monday morning argument. Altruism kicks later in the day, when my brain stops hurting and I wake up properly.
I strongly imagine that a place where nearly everybody else had some sort of higher education would be a place that I would be likely to have a better life than one in which they didn't.
I suspect I would be more likely to come across interesting things to do, or read, or talk about; and less likely to be robbed or attacked on the street.
And given the choice between being taxed to pay for my neighbour's education, or their unemployment benefit, I'd rather pay for their education.
It's the dustbin principle the reason I support the idea that we all pay for rubbish collection ourt of taxes is not because I want my rubbish collected, its because I want my neighbour's rubbish collected. The reason I support publicly funded education is not so my child can be educated - I could do that myself - but so that my neighbour's children will be educated FOR MY BENEFIT.
Also I really really want there to be a nice sound fast-growing economy in 20 or 30 or 40 years time so that other people's work can pay for my pension. And well-educated people are more likely to provide that. Not because they are trained to do all sorts of techy jobs, but because they are more likely to develop a wide range of interests and tastes and ideas that will continue to increase the diversity and complexity of the economy. Its not a zero-sum game.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ken: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Thank God Nintendo, Sega, Sony et al are working so hard to save our children from the tyranny of fresh air and sport.
Yes, thank God.
quote:
[I wish I could spel]
If you'd spent less time playing sport perhaps you'd have learned.
Are we still in Purg?
I'm interested in your apparent dislike of school sports. What exactly is so bad about teaching kids to keep fit?
[I've got a really bad feeling I'm missing some subtext or other here...] [ 12. January 2004, 11:18: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
quote: I'm interested in your apparent dislike of school sports. What exactly is so bad about teaching kids to keep fit?
What have schools sports got to do with keeping fit? Their main function seems to be humiliation and seem to be the best things devised so far for putting children off exercise. I expect lost more people would exercise in middle age if they had not been put off by school sports.
-------------------- if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Another thought : I find it fascinating the way the word 'elitism' is used. People who find nothing whatsoever 'elitist' about a society which has an hereditary monarch as head of state or an economic system which leads to massive concentrations of wealth in the hands of a few, whilst others starve, consider it the absolute nadir of elitism for some eighteen year-old to be applying post-structuralist analysis to Middlemarch. Curious.
Seems like good old fashioned reactionary anti-intellectualism to me. But then I would think that, since I'm part of a self-perpetuating clique of humanities-educated social parasites.
-------------------- insert amusing sig. here
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
(ETA: in response to the sports posts, to avoid confusion)
I genuinely do not comprehend that view.
I was never one of the "bigger boys" (quite weedy actually), but I used to really enjoy sports. Fine, so I got beaten up playing rugby, and had my nose shattered on the hockey field once, but it was still better than maths or geography... [ 12. January 2004, 11:54: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I see this thread has progressed to whining about all the big bad meanies in PE class. It was fun while it lasted, boys and girls. Time for me to move on.
-------------------- Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Erin: If this is the case, then this thread is not about you or your job. It's about Fregory demanding that society realign its priorities to what he thinks they should be. Evidently, Scottish society's priorities are already aligned, so you're not part of this and Fregory can head north.
No, you and others asked someone to tell you what use an obscure degree was to the rest of us. Most people would categorise Scottish History as fairly obscure (even in Scotland).
Louise replied with a masterful description of how - as a direct result of her PhD - she has been able to enrich a nation's understanding of itself, enrich the lives of many individuals AND contribute mightily to Scotland's tourism income (a major part of our economy).
Money well spent by the UK government, I'd say.
Now you're saying that doesn't count because she lives north of the border from Fr. Gregory? Eh?
Rat
-------------------- It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf: Seems like good old fashioned reactionary anti-intellectualism to me. But then I would think that, since I'm part of a self-perpetuating clique of humanities-educated social parasites.
You too? Blimey.
-------------------- Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Isaac David
Accidental Awkwardox
# 4671
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Posted
It seems to me that this argument comes down to the value to society of somebody studying a subject which doesn't directly benefit society.
If you choose to study medicine or engineering, the argument for public subsidy is much more compelling, because the likely benefit to society is much clearer. If, however, you choose to study history or classics, the benefit to society is much harder to quantify; the student in such subjects may benefit intellectually and pass on the fruits of their learning indirectly (as Louise has) or may not. Under those circumstances, some will argue that it is worth the risk of society's investing in such uncertain outcomes, while others will want to restrict investment to more certain outcomes.
I would be interested to know if there's any way of proving which way is better. I suspect the answer may not lie in the utilitarian sphere at all. FWIW, I agree with Fr Gregory, because I think it is worth taking the risk that some people will study subjects which don't directly benefit society, but don't ask me to prove it.
Isaac David
-------------------- Isaac the Idiot
Forget philosophy. Read Borges.
Posts: 1280 | From: Middle Exile | Registered: Jun 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I am reminded of Keynes' comment about the welfare state. The point, he said, is not to have the state attempt to do those things which the market does perfectly adequately. The point, is to have the state do those things the market doesn't do at all.
Therefore HMG should give priority to training philosophers and medievalists because we can always depend on the private sector to train accountants and engineers.
I can quite see the logic of a completely libertarian position which says that no-one should recieve state help in higher education. I can quite see the point of the old-fashioned European view which says that as far as is consistent with equity and financial reality we should support all academic disciplines.
However, the Blairite position that we should give priority to those fields of study that we think will aid the development of the economy is silly. If the market rules let the market dictate the contents of higher education. If the university is an institution which preserves and extends learning and culture, then by all means let us extend learning and culture. But to have the state second guess the market in this way is rather akin to purchasing paintings for the National Portrait Gallery on purely financial grounds. It's missing the point.
-------------------- How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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thursday+
Shipmate
# 5264
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Posted
quote: Therefore HMG should give priority to training philosophers and medievalists because we can always depend on the private sector to train accountants and engineers.
Quite. Part of the government's job in our current system (though it wasn't so before and I imagine it will cease to be so again) is to preserve civilisation. We need people who speak Sanskrit and so forth in order to be civilised. Knowledge is worth something. All knowledge. IMO.
-------------------- Jesus did not rise from the dead and announce, "A Blessed Easter! I'm the Second Person of the Trinity!," then spend the remaining days until his Ascension instructing the apostles in rubrics. Newman's Own.
Posts: 392 | From: home is in your head | Registered: Dec 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: I'm interested in your apparent dislike of school sports. What exactly is so bad about teaching kids to keep fit?
[I've got a really bad feeling I'm missing some subtext or other here...]
It's not subtext, its plain ordinary text, I said exactly what I meant the first time. But its off-topic here.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Erin: Time for me to move on.
So you accept my answer to your questions in my longish post of 11:40?
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
quote: It seems to me that this argument comes down to the value to society of somebody studying a subject which doesn't directly benefit society.
Hmm. A quantifiable vs. non-quantifiable outcomes debate. A quantifiable outcome in medicine would be that the patients blood count was raised or some other test statistic was met. A non-quantifiable outcome is that the patient's life became better, but not in a way that can be directly measured. Insurance generally only pays for the former, while it is the latter that really make a difference.
So too here. We can quantify the benefit of doctors by measuring how many patients they have successfully treated vs. the number of total patients they have treated. And we can quantify the benefit of engineers by the number of successful bridges they have built vs. the number of total bridges they have built. It is much harder to quantify the societal benefit of someone critiquing literature or learning an ancient, "dead" language. But does that mean that they do not benefit society? As even Erin pointed out, life would be boring if there were no great novels to read. [ 12. January 2004, 16:53: Message edited by: phoenix_811 ]
-------------------- "Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi
Posts: 487 | From: the state of confusion | Registered: Jun 2003
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
I'm sorry I missed out on the active part of this thread. I'm sensitive to the issue of wasting money on luxuries, but I don't think the government should have a target of spending zero on things like parks or history. I see them as investments in people's quality of life, providing them with things they couldn't afford on their own. Ben Franklin was hardly a socialist for inventing public libraries. He saw the value of broad, general education.
The US Defense budget, as I said, is about $320 billion dollars. The National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for Humanities are funded at about $0.2 billion together. The National Science Foundation and National Institute of Health are about $28 billion and account for most of the education and research spending. Here is a chart comparing Science & Health vs. Humanities spending in absolute dollars. If we want to save every penny in the $2.2 trillion US budget, I think there are better places to start. When we're done, then I'd say take a closer look at who's feeding at the public trough in the humanities.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
For research that seems to have no practical benefit, it's hard to beat the phycisist Feynman, who got interested in the way plates spun round when they fell, or on one of those wobbly poles. It seemed to have no use at all except to satisfy his curiosity, yet it led to him getting a Nobel prize for the mathematical theory that came out of it, which turned out to be very useful (though I can't now remember why).
-------------------- Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Why History Is Important, part 94
I was sitting next to a student teacher - i.e. one of those people being educated and trained to educate the next generation of school-children.
She noted that i had something scribbled in the front of my Bible.
"What does that say?" she asked, presumably as my handwriting is so appalling that she could not read it."
"It's a quote from a rabbi," I said, "It says, "Theology is illegal with one's back to Auschwitz'." (Actually, I had misquoted the good rabbi - it should read "forbidden", not "illegal".)
To which this intelligent person, being trained to educate the next generation of citizens, replied:
"What's Auschwitz?"
That's why History is important.
-------------------- "He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Quite so Dyfrig. Forgive my cynicism, but I predict someone will now come along and attempt to distinguish "useful" from "useless" history.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
quote: To which this intelligent person, being trained to educate the next generation of citizens, replied:
"What's Auschwitz?"
Dyfrig, sorry, that wasn't an intelligent person. That was a grade A numpty disguised as a student teacher. We're not all like that.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by musician: quote: To which this intelligent person, being trained to educate the next generation of citizens, replied:
"What's Auschwitz?"
Dyfrig, sorry, that wasn't an intelligent person. That was a grade A numpty disguised as a student teacher. We're not all like that.
Sure, I know that, musician - I really do. It's just that there is a distressingly large number who are like that these days. Very, very scary.
CB [ 14. January 2004, 18:41: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
-------------------- "[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
What really alarms me as a mature entrant into teaching (now 9 years on) is the startlingly low level of general knowlerdge amongst many teachers. I am bound to compare my colleagues with the products of a previous generation who taught me when I was at school. I know this is subjective and anecdotal but I just don't find the same breadth of knowledge. I'm not talking about quiz type facts here ... I am referring to the fruit of a broad liberal education that has some sense of both the bigger picture and the diverse particulars of human culture in time and space.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
I will add that I see a "practical" bent to History in that if it is studied from the standpoint of "putting oneself in the worldview of another" I believe it can help toward trust, understanding and possibly peace. If more in the US for example had an understanding of the legitimate historical claims of the Palestinians as well as the Jews, US policy might be more balanced there. I was appalled at my own lack of knowledge about Palestinians when 9/11 hit.
More than that, if more people were able to put themselves in the mindset of other cultures, I believe there would be less strife of all kinds. The "history" I am talking about goes beyond political, military, and economic history to intellectual, religious, and cultural history. I was lucky to always have it presented to me in that way and not meaningless and unconnected dates.
If humankind had trust and understanding enough to live under one modest police authority with the agreed upon power to use force, hundreds of billions in dollars would be saved. It is worth investing toward this goal if only for practical ends and not intellectual pleasure.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
Perhaps they are out making history.
-------------------- Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
In which case, how would they know? You can't forge something ahead except in the context of something behind you. I thought we were talking about temporal amnesia here.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr. Gregory: Where have the opposing views gone?
We're tired of
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr Gregory: You can't forge something ahead except in the context of something behind you.
Yes, and the knowledge of that something behind can and should be the impetus of future activity. To dwell in the study of what has already happened only stalls the progression. I would rather be a participant in something I can help create than an expert in something I cannot alter.
"The great end of life is not knowledge but action." (Huxley)
-------------------- Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
quote: I would rather be a participant in something I can help create than an expert in something I cannot alter.
Why? So you can repeat that which is unalterable?
-------------------- "Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi
Posts: 487 | From: the state of confusion | Registered: Jun 2003
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Grits: I would rather be a participant in something I can help create than an expert in something I cannot alter.
Your picture of God does not change and you cannot change the Bible. Yet, you seem to desire expertise in both areas. I would have thought that you loved at least Biblical history.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
Not repeat it -- create it -- the difference between study and participation. It's good and profitable to know about history, but I don't want to live there.
We all know that "He who does not study history is destined to repeat it." But I say one who studies it too much or too long might miss his destiny altogether.
-------------------- Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Mousethief
On this one I don't give up so easily.
Dear Grits
I think that there is a very real cultural difference here between America and Europe, (other nations and groupings doubtless as well).
(This is not a prelude to anti-Americanism ... I am saying some nice stuff as well).
America is a very young nation and, therefore, majors on ideals, goals and frontiers. We need that. I, for example, think it enormously encouraging for humanity that America appears to be pushing back into space again. (Let's hope it's just not an election ploy!)
However, from this side of the Atlantic it does sometimes look as if these goals and aspirations are simply believed in rather uncritically. America has a clear sense of identity and purpose and an evangelical zeal to get everyone to sign up to its philosophy.
Those of us with a little more history behind do not live in it (Grits) but we are perhaps a little more aware of how it has influenced us. I would have thought that such an awareness made true freedom for the future MORE possible, not less.
There is of course a delicious irony in all of this for us. When Americans cross the pond why do they obsess in a touristy way about all our "old stuff."?
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Grits: To dwell in the study of what has already happened only stalls the progression.
Other way round. Those who know no history, like those who know nothing but their own village, are likely to be uncomplaining small-c-conservatices who assume that the way things are is the only way they can be.
Even more the case in science of course - a knowledge of how we got to where we are is a neccessary tool for going on further. Ignorant people tend not to make scientific discoveries because they don't know what's new and what isn't.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr. Gregory: There is of course a delicious irony in all of this for us. When Americans cross the pond why do they obsess in a touristy way about all our "old stuff."?
Fr. G
(G-d, this is tiresome)
It's only ironic if you treat the US as united in anti-intellectualism. Perhaps some of us are not, and it is we who enjoy looking at old buildings and museums when we go on vacation. Is there some rule that says we musn't, in order to avoid creating the appearance of irony?
I was about to ask what the use of my education and current profession is (medieval history then to the practice of law), but then I realized I've paid for it all myself, and so anyone who doesn't like it can bite me.
-------------------- Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
There is a good deal of anti-intellectualism in America (for instance, there are surveys showing that a large proportion of Americans believe that highly educated people aren't good at dealing with real-life problems). But I think a large part of this attitude comes from a libertarian individualism that refuses to recognize any such thing as a common good. (Not only on this side of the Atlantic--cf. Old Ma Thatcher's comment that "There is no such thing as society"). In its extreme version, this manifests as people objecting to paying taxes to support primary education because they themselves have no children; a more moderate form simply objects to less widely used publically funded services from which they don't receive a direct benefit (such as graduate education in the humanities, public radio, arts funding, etc.).
Timothy
-------------------- When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. - C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ken: ...a knowledge of how we got to where we are is a neccessary tool for going on further. Ignorant people tend not to make scientific discoveries because they don't know what's new and what isn't.
No one is denying or condemning the need for knowledge. I do believe that knowledge is power. But to put excessive time and energy (and someone else's money, don't forget!) into the pursuit of knowledge that has little value to anyone or anything other than oneself, it somehow takes on the appearance of vanity. (I would put those who teach in a different category here.)
I would put forth the analogy that you view the study of history the way I view study of the Bible. The words are not going to change. The events are always going to read the same. But I am going to learn something and be better for it every time I read it and study it. I suppose the difference is that the Bible study is on my time, at my expense, and will (hopefully!) make me a better person, citizen, Christian, etc., thus benefitting those with whom I come in contact.
I agree in general with Fr Gregory's last post. I think America has an awesome sense of history, but it is one that spurs us on to action, rather than reflection. Let's face it -- the two societies are very different. They both seem to work nicely for those involved, so let's be grateful for that.
I love the romance of history, and that is why I enjoy museums, "old" things, etc. I don't really have to know the whys and wherefores about what I see; it's that aesthetic appeal that gets to me. I imagine that's true for many of those touristy types. We call it "appreciation".
-------------------- Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr. Gregory: Dear Mousethief
On this one I don't give up so easily.
You've already given up; you haven't come up with a single argument to support what I asked you to support, namely, that arcane graduate studies benefit "the whole society" somehow.
Instead you and your compadrés have simply attacked me (and Erin and others) for being luddites, anti-intellectual, uncritical, unthinking, non-supportive of history, the arts, etc. I assure you that I (I can't speak for Erin) am none of these things. But I am sick and tired of this thread.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Grits: the pursuit of knowledge that has little value to anyone or anything other than oneself, it somehow takes on the appearance of vanity
That's the exact point at issue, and no-one on the other side has yet replied to my longish post on it.
Living in a society in which lots of other people are well-educated benefits me. So its not just a private good.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ken: Living in a society in which lots of other people are well-educated benefits me.
How?
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
OK guys, sing along now..after 5.....
"there's a hole in my bucket, dear Henry dear Henry....."
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568
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Posted
I don't see how this song will benefit society.
-------------------- In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.
I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.
Posts: 1597 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: May 2003
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
I didn't think it would...but it proves I know the digit for one more than 4, would that help??
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568
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Posted
Well, fine, so long as my tax money's not teaching you to count.
-------------------- In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.
I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.
Posts: 1597 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: May 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
It definitely doesn't. And anyway, it's "Dear Liza". The "Dear Henry" goes with the response verses ("then fix it, Dear Henry," &c)
-------------------- Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mousethief: quote: Originally posted by ken: Living in a society in which lots of other people are well-educated benefits me.
How?
I already went on about it at great length about half-a-dozen posts ago! No -one has said anything at all in disagreement yet, never mind refutation.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
I'd like to ask the question, "Is there any such thing as 'useless' information, 'useless' facts, and 'useless' knowledge." In my opinion, no information is useless. If it is information, a use for it will eventually be found. This is a belief, I recognize. But many have pointed out here that previously 'useless' information has sometimes turned out later to be useful.
At the same time, I freely admit that society should take a hard look at how much it is spending, if anything at all, for information that has no known current value. It would be ridiculous to spend $10 billion on how accents were placed on syllables in ancient Sanskrit. But it might be worth a grant of a few thousand dollars because some day it will shed some light on processing of language in the brain. That is, if you have a few thousand bucks to spare. It's hard to say we don't have a dime to spare when the Federal budget is $2 trillion.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
quote: Well, fine, so long as my tax money's not teaching you to count.
ah...I didn't say I could count, just that I knew the digits.
quote: It definitely doesn't. And anyway, it's "Dear Liza". The "Dear Henry" goes with the response verses ("then fix it, Dear Henry," &c)
Well there we are then, my education's sadly lacking. I'll go off and apply for a grant to be counselled.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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