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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Coming out?
The Black Labrador
Shipmate
# 3098

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Chapelhead, you are clearly a complete fraud.

You use the word "just" on only 4 occasions and the word "really" only once. A true evangelical would use both words at least fifteen times in 6 paragraphs.

The words "share", "transition", "cell" and "pasta" are not used at all, showing that you are completely deceived. And your punctuation is terrible - everyone knows that "Lord" should appear after every six words. Even worse you refer to the Lord as God - proof of Anglo-Catholic heresy. Furthermore as you have not referred to the evils of homosexuality you must therefore be a liberal backslider.

The final proof that you are not an evangelical is provided by the fact that this thread has been going for about 20 hours without Merseymike saying that atheism is infinitely preferable to your version of Christianity. Or perhaps he's been eaten by the crocodile?

Posts: 629 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Royal Peculiar
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# 3159

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It's not a crocodile, it's an alligator

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Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.

Oscar Wilde

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IntellectByProxy

Larger than you think
# 3185

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For the record:

You can't see an alligator's teeth when it's mouth is closed; its lower teeth fit snugly into pits in the upper jaw. In contrast, a crocodile's lower teeth are always visible.

Alligators have a broad snout, while crocodiles have a thinner snout.

Alligators tend to be grayish black in color, whereas crocodiles have a light tan appearance.

Alligators can only be found in the southeastern United States and in some parts of China. Crocodiles can be found all over the world.

In the wild, alligators tend to run away. They prefer their own company. Some species of crocodiles, on the other hand, have legendary tempers. The Salt Water Crocodile and the Nile Crocodile have been known to eat people.

In other words, Erin is probably a crocodile whether she likes it or not.

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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com

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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian S:
You use the word "just" on only 4 occasions and the word "really" only once. A true evangelical would use both words at least fifteen times in 6 paragraphs.

Now Ian, not all evangelicals camp it up like that. These are all simply stereotypes. Indeed, you may well know some evangelicals and not be aware of it. I have heard of respectable Anglo-Catholic clergy who swing thuribles by day, but by night lead a secret life of clandestine bible studies in public restrooms.

Disgusting, I know, but true.

FCB

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Derf
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# 2093

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I thought I knew what I was and now I'm confused! (OK so confused is my normal state of being so it's not hard).

If singing shine jesus shine and raising my hands in worship make me one of these evangelicals, how come the people who are so evangelical they think I'm a woolly liberal think I'm a woolly liberal because I do precisely those things?!

Help.......!!!!!!

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Captain Caveman
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# 3980

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I have heard of respectable Anglo-Catholic clergy who swing thuribles by day, but by night lead a secret life of clandestine bible studies in public restrooms.

I can confirm this is true.

[hushed whisper]
I am a recovering Evangelical. Back in the days when I was even more firmly enmeshed in their murky subculture than I am now I had the following experience. At the (I can hardly bring myself to say it) 7am 'prayer for revival' meeting I used to attend there was for a while a Catholic priest who would also attend. I even remember one occasion when he was taken aside into another room by two or three others to have hands laid on him to be 'filled with the Spirit' and 'speak in tongues'. You could pass this guy in the street or go to his mass and not be aware of his double life. These people are everywhere, noone is above suspicion.
[/hushed whisper]

--------------------
"Take this shirt
Polyester white trash made in nowhere
Take this shirt and make it clean" - U2

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Paul W.

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# 1450

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quote:
Originally posted by Richard P:
Lo, I to was once an 'evangelical' I even attended what was known to be an evangelical bible college. Verily there was arm waving and claping during the 'empowering songs' and the gentle soothing rocking back and forth during the 'slow ones'at the devotional times each morning. Most of the speakers were 'sound' apart for one or two who were invited to give us pactice in tearing down the hellish armies of 'unsound doctrine'. At this bible college there was one man called 'Jim' who had infiltrated the ranks of evangelicalism and provided a way out for those willing to go down the rabbit hole. Since I entered this world of hightened evangelicalisim I had a feeling that something wasn't right, that there was something more than Stott, and theology based on the Bible speaks today series. One day I was contacted by 'Jims' assistant and told that 'Jim' wanted to see me, I thought could this be the answer I have been looking for?? What is the evangelical church? I sat down on a chair in his room and 'Jim ' told me how it has been his mission in life to look for the one, the one to lead others into the truth and now he hoped his search was over. He picked up a small pill box, opened it and emptied two pill into his hands. He told me that I had to make a choice, to take the blue pill, go back to the all night bible study of Mica Ch1 v 2-6, and forget all that had happened, or take the red pill and get an answer to my question. I took the red pill and the rest?? Well thats history... [Two face] [Paranoid]

[Killing me]

However - anyone who uses The Matrix as a theological illustration, especially the red pill/blue pill scene, just has to be an Evangelical.

Paul W

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"It's just a ride" - Bill Hicks

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Paul W:
anyone who uses The Matrix as a theological illustration, especially the red pill/blue pill scene, just has to be an Evangelical.

Because an Orthodox fan would of course use The Yellow Pill by Rog Phillips - why bother with all these new-wave trendy liberal films when you can go back to the True Quill of the Holy sfnal Fathers?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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Beware Chapelhead,

Things are not all as they seem Duchess told me off and I'm an evangelical. [Yipee]

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Richard P
Apprentice
# 4553

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I was traped in the seedy world of evangelicalism for a long time and even now 5 years after being released I am prone to backslide by putting the Rumours of Angels CD on and reading the Message.

[Embarrassed]

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His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a tumble dryer.

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Joyeux

Ship's Lady of Laughter
# 3851

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Please also be aware that not all evangelicals (little "e") are right-wing in the political arena... So your political leanings cannot be much help (although if you are extremely left-wing, you won't be Evangelical - big "E")

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Float?...Do science too

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Beware Chapelhead,

Things are not all as they seem Duchess told me off and I'm an evangelical. [Yipee]

Cause you DESERVED IT. I guess I will go back and whip some more behind...I am in a better mood now.
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46

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You can always be Evangelical Catholic.

Pick your Narrative, it's not as if human beings have any actually ability to express the true nature of the other. Just engage.

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CorgiGreta
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# 443

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"Evangelical Catholic"? Would that be those bi-liturgicals? Aren't they are in fact latent evangelicals.

Greta

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KenWritez
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# 3238

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quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Just engage.

<insert sound of engines going to warp speed.>

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

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kingsfold

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# 1726

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quote:
posted by CorgiGreta:
Aren't they are in fact latent evangelicals.

Are latent evangelicals like latent fingerprints? You don't see them very well unless you spray them with dye, or fix them with superglue?

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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done


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Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Thing is, I still am a Baptist. So how did you do it? Is there a secret hatch somewhere -

How did you do it? Tell me Chapelhead, PLEEEASE!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
The LORD soon thereafter sent me the young man who was to become my husband: Mike, a rampant evangelical, and a right-winger to boot. A well-muscled, virile, football-playing beast, who was to fulfill every lustful desire for Evangelical Intercourse I ever so much as dreamed of.

So now, 26 years later, I dwell joyously in the Tents of the Evangelical Camp, replete and satisfied and looking like the cat that swallowed the cream-covered canary. The Evangelical Lifestyle appears to be what I was made for.

I think that may be your answer - you have to marry out (or in).

BTW, all this talk of coming out seems to have worked for several people, I make it three posters to this thread with less than ten posts, including one first-timer - "Welcome" chickpea.

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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!

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Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
It's all very well being oh-so-liberal and PC, but we're talking about salvation issues here. As Paul said, fornicators, thieves, people who live in Surrey and Evangelicals are the sorts of people who simply aren't on God's radar.

We all know about 9/11 - that it was God's judgement on America for letting Tony Campolo happen. Frankly, if we let Evangelicals into our churches, we might as well let paedophiles and accountants in as well.

Am I so truly damned? [Waterworks]

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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!

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hatless

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# 3365

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Chapelhead replied to my desperate pleas for assistance in escaping the evangelical stronghold of the Baptists thus:
quote:
I think that may be your answer - you have to marry out (or in).

Shit, shit, shit! I married a Brethren. Well, a sistren, really. Is there really no other hope? The blueness is really getting to me, now. Have you noticed how blue the Ship is? A big lilac-blue stripe on the left, faded indigo at the top. Click on any cheery red text and it goes blue.

I may well be doomed to a blue evangelical future. I haven't started the smiling yet, and I still drink to excess, but I use the word 'Lord' far too much.

Is there anything I could, maybe, disbelieve that would save me? Or something dreadful I could do?

--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Chapelhead...I have misgivings.

Are you sure that you don't want to come out now simply because it is "cool" to be evangelical? For years they were silent and in the background: no-one spoke about them in polite society. But now, every Tom , Dick and Jane is an evangelical: are you sure it isn't just a ploy for coolness? You see them having fun and society giving them a nod (while despising the rest of us for our character assassination of them!) and want to join in?

If not: I apologise for such harsh character judgement. I too have had desires to return to the evangelical way: thankfully not acted upon all that regularly.

Late at night I look at my Moore College Correspondence Course books on the shelf: then I hold them to my breast: hoping for inspiration and teaching from those hallowed halls.

While outwardly tut-tutting, I do long to accept "Shine, Jesus, Shine" and the most profound poetry ever written and sing it as if every word was uttered by God himself.

When I hear of friends...and yes, I'll admit...I have evangelical friends [Embarrassed] , returning from conferences: there is a bit of me that wishes I was there.

Thus is the cross some of us must bear: the burden God has given us - to not be evangelical; but to be tempted by the allure of all its pleasures.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Never fear, Chapelhead.

Just get yourself a copy of "Growing Up Born Again". It's both hilarious and instructive.

If you're an Evangelical, you'll recognize yourself. If not, you'll learn how to be one.

And there are worse things to be! [Angel]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Is that the same as 'Growing up Evangelical' or a different one? I never could get my head around the difference between the two.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Is there any thruth in the rumour that you are organising a "Evo Pride" march through Canterbury Chapelhead?

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Joyeux:
if you are extremely left-wing, you won't be Evangelical - big "E"

Says who?

Not me or my Roundhead mates.

It stands to reason. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So no-one is any better than anyone else. Salvation is the free gift of God, due to his act of election before the creation of the world. Even being saved doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

So anyone who was really an Evangelical - as long as they are of the decent Calvinist sort that is, one has problems with these wishy-washy Arminians - can look any king, president, bishop, boss, film-star, or general posh person in the eye and think "I'm as good as you are". So properly understood it allows no places for deference, heirarchy, or aristocracy. A truly revolutionary political creed.

Also it implies democracy. Whovever is in power is a sinner, and subject to temptation. In fact, they will almost certainly succumb to it. So we have to assume our bosses are corrupt villains. So in order to prevent anyone taking over we have to make sure that political power is as dispersed as possible and that all would-be leaders are accountable to the people and subject to recall.
We know they are screwing us, so we kick them out every now and again before things get too bad. Or chop their heads off if we have to.

In the same way, the managers of a company are no better than the workers, and have no moral right to give orders. And the officers of an army no better than the private soldiers.

Power, position, property, and privilege are all things that are random and undeserved. They don't make a bad man good - though they might make a good man bad.

Hard to see how any Evangelical could be a Conservative with all that going against the idea. Smarmy deferential Toryism, corrupted with monarchy and aristocracy is incompatible with Christianity, properly understood [Smile]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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In this month's "P" magazine, there's an article about a Russian pop duo who are apparently "Evangelicals". They finish their act by praying together. Disgusting.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alaric the Goth
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# 511

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I.Am.An.Evangelical.(and.a.Baptist.and.proud.of.it.). [Eek!] [Smile]

I also think that I am going to have to vote Tory (as I did at the last General Election(there, I've come out and said it!! [Wink] ), whatever ken might say. For indeed people are all sinners, but also by God's grace have different gifts given in different measure. Some are born with intelligence, some with weallth/privilege. Who is to say these things are not God-given in some way?

And at the moment my country's leaders, sinful human beings, are giving away power(or in actuality planning to confirm what powers they and their predecessors have already given away) to other sinful human beings (that haven't even been elected in most cases). These powers are not theirs to give away. They belong to US, the people of Britain, and the politicians (should) hold them, as 'guardians', on our behalf.

A party called the Conservatives is the only one pointing this out to any significant extent (and by no means unanimously). While it does this I will vote for it, that my vote in future years might still carry some meaning, and the oligarchs of Brussels (and their fan in No.10 Downing St.) might not be allowed to bring my country to an effective end.

Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
welsh dragon

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# 3249

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Well, I should have been alright. I went to 4 convent schools. My parents took me to Mass every Sunday. They thought I was safe. I was basically a nice (if very shy) Catholic girl...

But then I went away to University. I started experimenting. With all sorts of mind altering things. Taize music. Orthodoxy. Even the...the...the E word.

I tried...Catholic Charismatic worship. I liked it! It made me feel good! I got...I got high. Soon I found out I needed some every week. I...spoke in tongues. I...sang in tongues. I...was happy . I couldn't wait to get my regular fix. It seemed ... life enhancing and colourful...

But I moved University to study for another degree. I thought I had put my past behind me. I ascribed it to youthful folly. I thought I had Outgrown All That. I thought I was an Intellectual.

And then I was going through a difficult time. I left the church. I wandered back again. I found myself in...evangelical churches...I went to ...Greenbelt (explaining to anyone who would listen that I wasn't really an evangelical and I didn't know how I had come to be there). I even ventured through the doors of...St. Aldate's.

And the old feelings came back! I was enjoying myself! It still felt good! I thought no, no, I'm not really ...charismatic...I'm not...an...evangelical. I don't insist that everyone believe the same as me! I don't think my parents were automatically consigned to Hell because they were Catholics! I think the Bible is complicated! And I know that Jesus said very little that was prescriptive about sexual morality!

But...I still find myself...in evangelical churches...and I really enjoy going to fellowship groups (I'm going to two...) ...and I'm even (apologetically) leading the odd Bible study ("Look, people, there are some interesting questions here, but don't expect me to know any Bible history, cos my upbringing was, basically, Catholic, right?")

And what next? Am I going to find myself taking pamphlets door-to-door ("Hello? Oh gosh, sorry! I don't normally do things like this! I don't know what's come over me! Would you like a free copy of Mark's Gospel since I seem to have one in my hand?")

help! help! is there any hope?

Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Yo-Yo
Shipmate
# 2541

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quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
I'm afraid donuts are the new quiche.

Do you find it impossible to say the words "The Lord" without undue emphasis in any reading of the bible or prayer?

As donuts are the new quiche I bring news that the new version of "The Lord" is to start all prayers with "...and Lord we just" (as if you're so holy that praying is merely an extension of your regular conversation - the great (but slightly smaller) Mike Pilavachi uses this one).

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"The purpose of life... is to love whoever is around to be loved." - Kurt Vonnegut jnr

Posts: 371 | From: XS | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
In this month's "P" magazine, there's an article about a Russian pop duo who are apparently "Evangelicals". They finish their act by praying together. Disgusting.

This is a new sort of "performance art" no doubt.

Reader Alexis

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
biscuit
Shipmate
# 3550

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OK, GeordieDownSouth, since when have doughnuts been the new Quiche? [Mad] Since I put it in my sig yesterday? And that's my home town you're posting from!

I have yet to meet a quiche I did like and a doughnut I didn't.

Perhaps, while I am it, I should put "Arminian" into my sig and get Ken looking down on me while MerseyMike looks down on both of us!

CI//out and so cross he could be used for "Mr Angry from Purley" impressions

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"The strength of the fish is in the water" (proverb)
Current flavour: Chocolate hobnob

Posts: 455 | From: South Hobbiton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
GeordieDownSouth
Shipmate
# 4100

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quote:
OK, GeordieDownSouth, since when have doughnuts been the new Quiche?
Since FOREVER!

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----------------------

No longer down south.

Posts: 689 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Be at peace, Welsh Dragon.

There are many, many more of us than you know.

Re: your upbringing... sounds a little like mine.

Except I was sent to Mass by an Easter-and-Christmas/wedding-and-funeral Catholic father,
and the lapsed Baptist mother who raised us faithfully Catholic, as she had promosed to do.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Joyeux

Ship's Lady of Laughter
# 3851

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Joyeux:
if you are extremely left-wing, you won't be Evangelical - big "E"

Says who?

Not me or my Roundhead mates.

<snip - to make it quicker to respond)

Hard to see how any Evangelical could be a Conservative with all that going against the idea. Smarmy deferential Toryism, corrupted with monarchy and aristocracy is incompatible with Christianity, properly understood [Smile]

ken - let me only say that "conservativism" in America is different from in England. We have no monarchy by whom to be corrupted. And I don't deny that many evangelicals are left wing, the hard-core, large "E" Evangelicals usually aren't... just ask duchess! [Big Grin]

So, Chapelhead - a further question: which kind(s) of evangelicalism draw(s) you?

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Float?...Do science too

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Merseymike
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# 3022

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I believe the bulk of the white evangelical vote is pretty firmly Republican/pro-Bush in the USA, and that most evangelicals view themselves as conservative, and a very, very small number as politically or socially liberal.

I'm not sure if any similar survey has been done here, though. The numbers are much smaller so it may be more difficult to do. I know that groups like the Christian Institute and the Conservative Christian Fellowship are much more evangelical/conservative in theology than the Christian Socialist Movement.

I think I can see the connection between economic socialism and evangelical theology, but I still feel that evangelicalism is socially conservative - hence groups like the CI here, and Focus on the Family et al in the US.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Merseymike
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Oh,and all the other stuff that I usually say too (don't want to break the habit of a lifetime, now, do we). Given that this is hell and that last contribution wasn't hellish at all... [Mad]

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Is that the same as 'Growing up Evangelical' or a different one? I never could get my head around the difference between the two.

In the US, anyway, Evangelicals are born-again, but not all born-againers are Evangelicals. They could be fundamentalists--or any flavor of Christian, really.

Born-againers just believe you need to make a personal commitment to Jesus; thereby, your sins are forgiven and you start a new life. Hence, "born again".

(I grew up fundamentalist. Can you tell? [Wink] )

BTW, Evangelical and charismatic are not the same thing. (Nor fundamentalist and charismatic.) Lots of fund. folk don't believe in charismatic experiences, and I would expect that applies to Evangelicals, too. And you can be charismatic without being either fund. or ev.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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RooK

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# 1852

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The current and reigning champion of Posts That Say The Same Thing They Always Say AND Being Utterly Irrelevant To The Thread IS...

Merseymike.

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Merseymike
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Over here - perhaps because of the far smaller numbers - the Evangelical Alliance would contain groups and individuals from all those categories, although some would remain separate eg the Exclusive Brethren

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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duchess

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# 2764

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Merseymike, to save time...why don't you make a website going into depth your opinions on conservative evagnelicals...then you could just link to it in all your post. It would save us all time, and also save you time, a real win-win suggestion to ponder, don't you think? OH, just do it. Thx.

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Little Miss Methodist*

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# 4367

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quote:
Originally posted by Captain IT:


Perhaps, while I am it, I should put "Arminian" into my sig and get Ken looking down on me while MerseyMike looks down on both of us!


Hooray!!!

As a good Methodist I can put my hand up to "Arminian" too.

Just a thought, as nice, wolly minded liberals, shouldn't we embrace our more evo shipmates?

Cause, you know, thats kind of one of the points of being liberal isn't it?

"I may not agree with you, but I respect your right to think differently"

[Yipee] [Yipee] [Yipee] [Yipee] [Yipee]

(please, please, please, nobody jump on me, that was just a general musing and in no way directed at anyone)

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Past the point of no return,
The final threshold.
The bridge is crossed, so stand and watch it burn.
We've passed the point of no return.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Little Miss Methodist:
Just a thought, as nice, wolly minded liberals, shouldn't we embrace our more evo shipmates?

Cause, you know, thats kind of one of the points of being liberal isn't it?

Yup. As I said, there are worse things to be! Evangelical is just one among the many flavors of Christians.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Og: Thread Killer
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# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
Evangelical is just one among the many flavors of Christians.

Make mine grape please, in a plain cone.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Paul W.

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# 1450

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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
Merseymike, to save time...why don't you make a website going into depth your opinions on conservative evagnelicals...then you could just link to it in all your post. It would save us all time, and also save you time, a real win-win suggestion to ponder, don't you think? OH, just do it. Thx.

If he puts it in his sig, all he would have to do is post a blank message any time he wants to say something, and the link will be there. [Big Grin]

Paul W

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
Evangelical is just one among the many flavors of Christians.

Make mine grape please, in a plain cone.
...as a vehicle for taking grape juice for communion? Now *that* would be a fun church!!!

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
If he puts it in his sig, all he would have to do is post a blank message any time he wants to say something, and the link will be there. [Big Grin]

Paul W

That would save us all a lot of time. Just a simple "refer to sig" would sum it up. I actually do seriously think this might tidy up things a bit...help more thoughts come out.

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KenWritez
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# 3238

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quote:
Originally posted by Little Miss Methodist:
Just a thought, as nice, wolly minded liberals, shouldn't we embrace our more evo shipmates?

Cause, you know, thats kind of one of the points of being liberal isn't it?

"I may not agree with you, but I respect your right to think differently"

[editorial tangent]

Weeeeeell, yes and no. While many liberals (who are otherwise fine people) like to flatter themselves as all-embracing, and tolerance is certainly a much talked-about star on the liberal flag, look at liberal reactions to conservative ideologies or actions and you'll see intolerance finds a comfortable home in the liberal camp just as readily as in everyone else's.

IME there are as many intolerant conservatives as there are intolerant liberals, it's usually that the conservative expression of intolerance is often more overt while the liberal flavor of intolerance is a bit less obvious.

Unfortunately, people who value ideology over character operate against stereotypes (rather than the humanity of those involved in the issues) and it's they who seem to get all the publicity, so each side sees the worst of the other and is convinced the extremes define the whole of the opposite side, so each is convinced of the other's evil and perversity.

To the conservatives, liberals are all wooly-headed, perverse agents of Satan; arsenic to the body politic, working tirelessly to bring down Morality & Civilization As We Know It. To the liberals, conservatives are cruel, reactionary bigots, cultural Philistines, war-mongering imperialists in whom no good thing dwelleth.

One of the good things about SoF is that it allows me to get to know people who hold views opposite of mine and through this medium, I get to know them a bit and see that they're as human as I am. By wrestling with these issues, I benefit by more closely examining what I believe and why. In some cases, as a result of input from other Shipmates, I've even changed my opinion about certain issues.

[/editorial tangent]

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

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Merseymike
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# 3022

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Thats an interesting point. Its a bit like - if you had two candidates to vote for, one who was a nasty bit of work, who would vote for the ideas you wish to see furthered, and the other a much 'better'person, who disagreed with your perspectives, which would you support.

I'd go for ideology every time, because that would make longer lasting, larger changes benefitting a wider range of people. Ideas above character, every time.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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KenWritez
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# 3238

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Sorry MM, but I disagree. I think it's a flawed analogy because no candidate will ever have a pool of platforms you'll agree with 100% (or disagree with 100%), and IMHO the "nasty bit of work" will have more of a toxic effect on the country and those around her, regardless of her political actions, simply because her own character defects will corrupt or destroy her political works.

I'd be careful of "Ideology over character"; it's how tyrants get into office.

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

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RooK

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Oh goodie.
This thread was all clever and witty, and now it's turned into the Merseymike rehash-a-thon.

Get out your stopwatches everyone, this thread is either going to die or explode into a hissy-fit.

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Merseymike
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See what you mean kenwritez, but ultimately political change, in terms of policy and law, happens through the votes in the lobbies, and one person alone is unlikely to alter the overall balance of goodness/badness in any case. Its a case of how many will benefit from the legal or political change and if someone with an unblemished character votes the wrong way, that will have far more negative effect on a far greater number of people than the effect of character deficiency.

I don't expect politicians to be personal saints ; I'm only interested in what they stand for and how they vote.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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