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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: The Christian Institute - The Tyneside Taliban?
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I think Rowan will be sensitive and respect the fact that the Church remains so divided. But, yes, I think his quiet and thoughtful approach, where conversation is still very much open, will help matters a good deal.
Put it like this, the G&LHumanists, who loathe religion with a passion, do their best to try and portray him as less sympathetic than he is, which suggests they recognise that he may make a real impact - curiously, their loathing of religion means that they would almost rather Christians hate gays, as then religion is easier to call homophobic!
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Paul Careau
Shipmate
# 2904
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Posted
Unfortunately, people like the CI and Reform are a propaganda gift to people like GALHA. Obviously, you need to bare in mind GALHA's objectives are ultimately aetheist humanism. Any opportunity they get they tend to pump out the message "we told you Christians are bad - you can't trust them". This, coupled with the propaganda from the likes of the CI simply serves to plant doubt and fear in many people's minds. That is why positive/pro-gay messages from mainstream Xians are so important.
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Bye for now. Paul.
Posts: 92 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2002
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Linus
Apprentice
# 3961
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Posted
As an evangelical christian in Newcastle, i feel i might have a couple of points to make. First of all i want to say i think the CI are PR muppets. Paul is absolutely right to say they shoot themselves, and unfortunately the rest of us, in the foot by the way they act. The whole card carrying fiasco was in my opinion foolish, insensitive, counter-productive in the extreme, and actually the more i think about it, the more i'm disgusted by it. Even though i share a fair amount of the CIs theology up to a point (and believe me i'm not comfortable saying that, but its honest at least) I think the way they express it, in terms of language and emphasis, and in their sometimes one sided / seemingly uncaring statements, leaves a fair amount to be desired.
Having said that, they are i think at least attempting to provide a sincere and honestly arrived at a theological response to the parliamentary issues of the day; as their theology is that the Bible is authoritative and inerrant, that means they have to make strong statements in order to remain true to the beliefs they hold. I'm the first to say, however, they could do a better job of expressing those in a less offensive and prejudicing way - after all we're all very far from perfect. Whilst i accept that there is some truth in the statement that they single out this one issue, its importance to remember there's been a lot of legislation affecting it recently and the CI do act in response to what is going before parliament at the time. They do speak out on other issues equally fundamentally.
I'd also like to inform people a little of my impressions of Jesmond Parish Church. I know they support CI but i think having looked at the CI website, albiet fairly briefly, i'd say there's some daylight between a CI press release and a JPC sermon. I'd estimate i've been to 15 or so services at jpc in the last eighteen months. Only one of these as far as i recall even mentioned homosexuality, and this was in a sermon talking about all aspects of human relationships. As i recall it wasn't a particularly large chunk of that sermon either. You might be interested to know that although CI rang a vague bell when i saw the OP title, it wasn't until looking through the above posts before i was sure jpc were involved with them at all, so its not like they plug it incessantly. I know a fair few people who worship at jpc and i wouldn't say any of them could be described as homophobic, strongly held and carefully thought out positions over the inspired nature of scripture notwithstanding.
I don't think anyone will change evangelical christians' position unless they can make a case from scripture for Homosexual sex being an acceptable act before God. By definition they take the Bible as their ultimate authority. However, there are ways of stating your position and there are ways of acting, which could show Christ and christians in a much more positive light, and i'm in total agreement with you on hoping and praying that will happen.
I don't pretend to have vast insight into these matters but i hope this post is constructive and useful information.
Cheers.
L:>
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"In a world full of fugitives, the one taking the opposite direction will appear to run away" - t.s.elliot
Posts: 32 | From: Leicester and Newcastle, UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
That the CI takes a stance against homosexual persons indicates judgment of homosexuals as a class without bothering to learn anything about them individually. It is, like any other general judgment of a group without information about the members of that group, irrational. Prejudice is never pretty. The denizens of the CI believe homosexuality is a sin and say this is sufficient grounds to not want their children to be adopted by a homosexual. Since the Bible tells us that being judgmental is a sin shouldn't they also hand out cards saying "In the event of my death I do not want my children to be adopted by a judgmental person" ?
As an aside, my will asks that my children be adopted by a specific couple in the event my wife and I die while our children are minors. We chose the couple because one is related and they will make excellent parents. That they happen to be homosexual was not a factor in the decision.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Linus
Apprentice
# 3961
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Posted
I've already said i thought the card thing was dispicable. There's no way that that particular act represented mainstream anything and it certainly didn't represent me.
Having spent the last 5 years in a single parent home environment, I feel very strongly, both due to experiences from before and after this point, that a child should grow up in an environment which is as stable as possible and contains input from parents of both sexes who love and are committed to each other, however this is my personal opinion and i would not expect anyone else follow it, nor would i wish to force it upon anyone.
You say the CI condemn "homosexuals as a class" Whilst i cannot speak for them nor would i want to defend them too much, my own position is that i feel it is important to distinguish between deciding, based on a careful study of scripture, that a specific act is wrong, and thus living personally within that boundary, and your statement about judging a group of people because of their association with this act.
I have made a decision to avoid personally acts of homosexual intercourse. I hope and pray i also avoid judging others, which as you say is clearly frowned upon. I want to make it clear i'm not trying to make myself look holier than anyone else - i'm a wretched sinner, especially in terms of my sex life, and i certainly won't be throwing any first stones.
In case you think i'm splitting hairs with the whole act and person thing, let me provide you with an example of how this works in practice. I live in a house with a bunch of non-christians and nominal christians in Newcastle. My housemates regularly get drunk and some have girlfriends they sleep with. I have chosen not to do these particular things in a response to what i believe the Bible says about how to live in response to God and His amazing sacrifice for us. Again, i don't expect others to live by these rules - their decisions are entirely there own, and i am not to judge. My flatmates know my position and why i hold it. I don't think any of them feel judged by it. Despite their different lifestyles i get on well with them, and enjoy living with them.
I use these roughly parrallel (and i know they're not great) examples cos it just so happens that none of the people i live with are in homosexual relationships, but if they were i would act towards them according to the same principles i have explained above My decision affects the way i act and the worldview i hold. Everyone else's decision is between them, their concience and God. I hope that makes sense and that i am not sounding bigoted or prejudiced - its not my intention.
sincerely
Linus:>
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"In a world full of fugitives, the one taking the opposite direction will appear to run away" - t.s.elliot
Posts: 32 | From: Leicester and Newcastle, UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Sooty Puss
Shipmate
# 4155
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Posted
An interesting debate.
I think calling the Christian Institute the 'Tyeburne Taliban' might be an accurate reflection (particularly in the light of the appalling 'donor card' episode) but perhaps not particularly charitable in my opinion.
Living under Taliban rule would be a lot more brutal and restrictive, believe me!
I have been very disappointed by the actions of the Christian Institute, Reform and the Church Society particularly on the homsexuality issue. But one should realise that these supporters are on the fringes and most evangelicals I know have no idea who these groups are or are not slightly in the bit interested in their agenda. To me, these groups are probably aligned to the similar groups in the United States of which there are plenty, unfortunately.
With the enthronement of Dr. Rowan Williams later today I think we we will perhaps see the Church of England adopt a more enlightened view of gays and lesbians in the church. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 108 | From: SUSPENDED | Registered: Feb 2003
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Linus : I think the question may be - do you think that Christians who are gay can have different views to you and still be regarded as fully Christian.
The CI is actually run from JPC; David Holloway is one of its leading lights. However, I think the days when they could be assured of success are fast disappearing. They have few ears inside the Labour Party, and many within the Conservatives are equally sceptical now.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
MerseyMike unless your braincell is misfiring again, you know that discussions of whether one can be a Christian and homosexual belong in Dead Horses. For the newcomers here, who probably don't know this, there is a 9 page thread in Dead Horses to discuss the tangent Mike has been busy setting up in this thread.
Oh, and welcome to Hell SootyPuss and Linus. Enjoy wandering the decks, and reading all the boards. I suggest you both become familiar with the Ship's 10 Commandments, and the guidelines for each board - it'll help in the long run.
Viki, hellhost
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675
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Posted
quote:
I think that's insulting to the Taliban. The CI are much worse!
Scary. That's all I can say about this comment. I assume it was supposed to have some degree of humour about it, but frankly, it's not funny.
I believe within my lifetime, evangelicals will become a hated and persecuted ethic minority people group in Britain, and it is ill informed slanderous comments for unfounded hatred which will form the basis of that.
matt
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3M Matt.
Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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Degs
Friend of dorothy
# 2824
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
quote:
I think that's insulting to the Taliban. The CI are much worse!
Scary. That's all I can say about this comment. I assume it was supposed to have some degree of humour about it, but frankly, it's not funny.
Don't be afraid to cite the orignator of the quote, matt, I'm not ashamed to own it!
There was meant to be some humour to it, but you're right, it's not funny.
The CI are more dangerous because they are insidious. The Taliban were prertty much 'in yer face' blowing up statues, lopping off body parts!!
The CI, on the other hand, do things like funding researchers for, now deceased, peers of the realm (against all the rules apparently), so that they can further their narrow and prescriptive agenda.
As for your fear for the future of evangelicals, I don't think so. It's not evangelicals who are distrusted, just groups like the CI.
I work very happily with my evangelical colleagues and they with me, and we tend to agree about groups like the CI.
YKW
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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.
Posts: 2388 | From: a land that I heard of once in a lullaby | Registered: May 2002
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Royal Peculiar
Shipmate
# 3159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
quote:
I think that's insulting to the Taliban. The CI are much worse!
I believe within my lifetime, evangelicals will become a hated and persecuted ethic minority people group in Britain
matt
They may certainly be mocked and reviled but will they be beaten up in the street, denied jobs or sacked or imprisoned for their evagelical beliefs or actions stemming from tnose beliefs?
Time wil tell, but I doubt it.
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Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Oscar Wilde
Posts: 405 | From: Barking, London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Linus
Apprentice
# 3961
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
Linus : I think the question may be - do you think that Christians who are gay can have different views to you and still be regarded as fully Christian.
The CI is actually run from JPC; David Holloway is one of its leading lights.
We are Christians because of Christ and not cause of anything we do or don't do. I am trying to follow Christ and live in a way i think pleases Him. You yourself i think have similar aims. Who am i to judge whether others are Christians or not? You're asking me not only to proclaim judgement on people i don't know, but also to do something specifically forbidden in scripture:
quote:
1 Corinthians 4v5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
This is a toungue in cheek point, but - Do you feel that Christians who are members of the CI can have different views to you and still be regarded as fully Christian?
As for JPC yes i agree with you they are highly involved with the CI, the point i'm trying to make is they are not a one issue Church. They have a particular stance on this issue. I can understand that you might feel hurt by it, but it is far from the main thrust of their teaching, nor do i think they are deliberately trying to persecute or crusade against the gay community.
God Bless
Linus:>
ps shouldn't we all expect persecution as Christians, evangelical or otherwise? In many places around the world what Royal Peculiar describes is happening to followers of Christ right now. We shouldn't be so complacent to presume it won't happen here. Especially depending on your views of certain prophesies contained in scripture.
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"In a world full of fugitives, the one taking the opposite direction will appear to run away" - t.s.elliot
Posts: 32 | From: Leicester and Newcastle, UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Royal Peculiar
Shipmate
# 3159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Linus:
ps shouldn't we all expect persecution as Christians, evangelical or otherwise? In many places around the world what Royal Peculiar describes is happening to followers of Christ right now. We shouldn't be so complacent to presume it won't happen here. Especially depending on your views of certain prophesies contained in scripture.
So presumably the incorporation of the European Covention on Human Rights, which protects freedom of religion and outlaws discrimination on religious grounds, into English law, is a source of great relief to Evangelicals who fear persecution.
[Peculiar coding. We are not amused.]
[ 28. February 2003, 02:12: Message edited by: RooK ]
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Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Oscar Wilde
Posts: 405 | From: Barking, London | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Black Labrador
Shipmate
# 3098
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Linus:
I don't think anyone will change evangelical christians' position unless they can make a case from scripture for Homosexual sex being an acceptable act before God. By definition they take the Bible as their ultimate authority.
I think if those who were campaigning for acceptance of gay relationships within the church made clear that they were only referring to committed monogamous relationships then many evangelicals would be a lot more sympathetic.
Can anyone give examples of gay rights campaigners taking such a stance?
Posts: 629 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2002
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
Crumbs. I'd never heard of the CI before today and I was baptised at Jesmond Parish Church - albeit over ten years ago.
BK
Posts: 903 | From: The Wool Basket | Registered: Mar 2002
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