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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW: Addressing a female Anglican priest
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
I have to hand the 2002 edition of The Church of England Year Book, rescued from' canal. (Sorry Cosmo ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ) Don't you hate the fact that they compile these things so early in the year that by the time they're published, half the information's of no use anyway cos it's all out of date?! ![[Flaming]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
Anyway. Addressing the clergy:
Apparently, 'My Lord' and 'Mr Dean' are now bordering on obsolescence, and are being replaced by simply 'Bishop' and 'Dean'.
Addressing clergy on an envelope (how often do you see clergy standing/sitting/lying on an envelope? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) )
- AB of another Province - The Most Revd the Lord Archbishop of...
- Bish of London - The Rt Revd and Rt Hon the Lord Bishop of London.
- Diocesan/Suffragan - The Rt Revd the (Lord) Bishop of...
(though our Diocesan doesn't do formalities. He'd be happy with 'The Right Revd the Lord') - Asst/Retired Bish - The Rt Revd n.
- Dean - The Very Revd the Dean of...
- Provost - The Very Revd the Provost of...
- Archdeacon - The Ven the Archdeacon of...
- Canon - The Revd Canon n.
- Prebendary (wtf?) - The Revd Prebendary n.
- Cleric & Prof - The Revd Professor n.
- Canon & Prof - The Revd Canon n.
- Cleric & Doc - either:
- The Revd n (degree)
- Other Clergy - The Revd n.
Information obtained from the volume mentioned above.
RC x
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Also, some clergy are themselves fond of using the title 'Dr.' even though the doctorate is in a field other than theology, divinity, or church studies. It may be technically correct but seems to border on a slight deception.
There is no maybe about it! Most people have to work damned hard to get a PhD. They are most worthy of using the title "Dr" as and when they choose. The fact that the doctorate is not in Theology does not matter in the slightest. If someone is really interested they will ask.
bb
Right on, bb.
If someone has worked for a doctorate, they should be allowed to call themselves Dr, whatever the subject is. In any other field of work, it would be considered acceptable.
The only area I know of is pharmacy ( although I suspect other areas of medicine are similar ) where pharmacists with doctorates are not permitted to call themselves doctors, on the ( very reasonable ) basis that it would be confusing.
Would you suggest that clergy with other degrees ( i.e. lower degrees, not theology ) should disown them as well?
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Blog
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
from Regina Caeli's list:
Prebendary (wtf?) - The Revd Prebendary n.
A quick peek at a couple of dictionaries yielded variations on this:
"A prebendary is a member of clergy, usually Anglican, who receives a prebend. A prebend is a stipend received by a member of the clergy." ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
The Webster's 1828 Dictionary yielded this, which is a bit more helpful.
And the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica has this.
Or you might want to read Anthony Trollope's Barchester novels!
[fixed a bunch of my own typos ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif) ]
[ 30 July 2002, 16:30: Message edited by: jlg ]
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Sean
Shipmate
# 51
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Posted
I'm probably wrong on this, but my understanding is that some cathedrals (eg Exeter) have Prebendaries rather than Canon's. The (purely honourary) role is much the same.
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"So far as the theories of mathematics are about reality, they are not certain; so far as they are certain, they are not about reality" - Einstein
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Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf
Ship's curiosity
# 1283
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Nunc, I've been around a lot of nuns and the only Reverend Mother I've met in the last 30 years is the Reverend Mother Inferior of the traditionally attired Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence
Ah yes, those wonderful Sisters... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
One of them got ordained this Petertide. He once told me the Church had better drag than the scene ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."
Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
Ah, I see now. Thanks jlg and Sean.
RC x
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Would you suggest that clergy with other degrees ( i.e. lower degrees, not theology ) should disown them as well?
I would say "Yes". Degrees should only be 'used' in the field where they are relevent. In the same way I would not expect a non-stipendery minister to include 'Revd' on his/her business cards in her/his 'tent-making' job.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The only area I know of is pharmacy ( although I suspect other areas of medicine are similar ) where pharmacists with doctorates are not permitted to call themselves doctors, on the ( very reasonable ) basis that it would be confusing.
Hmm, I suspect that is an Urban Myth. I know a Doctor of Nursing who is Dr Jarvis, and a Dr Gibson who has a PhD in Medical Physics. THey both use their titles in the hospitals.
In the School of Pharmacy at the Uni of Manchester all of the academic staff are either Dr of Prof.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I gave a lot of thought to this question before I was ordained, particularly because I had a formal upbringing and disliked being called by my first name by strangers. "Father" sounded a bit odd for a female. "Mother Amos" made me sound like someone's mother-in-law. "Reverend" and "Rev" were simply cringe-making and "Vicar" inaccurate. I thought seriously about going back and finishing my doctorate just to give folks something sensible to call me: other female Anglican clergy have acquired doctorates for just this reason. Then I was ordained, and I learned that, like the man in "The Hunting of the Snark" ordained clergy answer to "Hi!, or any loud cry/ Such as 'Fry me!' or 'Fritter my Wig'. Some people call me by my baptismal name. One retired warden calls me by my middle name, because he likes it. Some people prefix this with "Our": "Hello, Our Amos"
Some people insist on calling me "Mrs. Amos" and some people call me "Mother" (they generally tend to be a bit sarcastic). Some people call me "Reverend", and others just look embarrassed. Some of the old ladies call me "Dear" or "Amos Dear". A few ask what they should call me; I tell them to call me what they're comfortable calling me--if they call my incumbent by his Christian name, they are welcome to call me by mine. Basically, I am happier having people feel comfortable talking to me and try not to let my own preferences in the matter get in the way of that.
I call my Bishop "Bishop", by the way. I call my incumbent by his Christian name unless I am winding him up, in which case I use his titles.
My Archdeacon (who is female) rejoices in a doctorate, which solves that problem. The only female bishop I ever knew was Bishop Harris, who one addressed as such to her face and referred to as "Babs" behind her back.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
----------------------- Amos,
I've been waiting for your post. It was worth the wait , even though I'm still among the "just look embarrassed" bunch.
Another possiblilty just occurred to me. What about reviving the term "parson"? Would it simplify things? Is there anywhere that the term is still in general use? Why did it fall into disuse? Is there a sectarian or other negative connotation attached to the term?
Again, please, if the answers to the above involve use of the word 'Protestant', let's be polite. Thank you all for being so well-mannered thus far.
Greta
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
"Parson" is a little old-fashioned, but perfectly acceptable, though it shouldn't be combined with the parson's name.
Where I am, everyone in a clerical collar whether Anglican, Nonconformist or Roman, is known to non-churchgoers as a "vicar" (this must be really annoying to those who aren't Anglican), and women in clerical collars are known to all as "lady vicars." So, for instance, when I was newly deaconed and some kids called to me "Are you a real vicar?" I knew that the correct answer in that context was "Yes" even though I wasn't. And yesterday I had the pleasure of opening the door to a man selling Home Improvements and seeing him recoil with the words, "A Lady Vicar!"
If Angelus Domini makes it through the process he must not stamp his foot like the little butterfly in the story when such things occur.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
OK, this has all been very edifying, but I have another question.... it's a tangent, so you'll have to forgive me.
If I understand the system correctly, curates in the CofE are ordained and then spend about a year working in a parish before being priested. Now, I call our curate Penny, but if I were trying to do things properly, should I have called her different things before and after her priesting?
All the best,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
More on prebendaries.
Historically prebs were clergy who received some sort of stipend in return for some sort of service to a Cathedral. More recently, Preb was an alternative term for Canon where the Prebs were senior members of the diocesan clergy appointed by the bishop. Prebs served on the Greater Chapter (ie they were distinct from the Dean and Residentiary Chapter) and performed negligable duties in the cathedral like singing evensong on weekdays or celebrating mid-week communion or preaching when Mr Dean has a hangover.
I was under the impression that following the reform of cathedral governance, Prebs were to be abolished and replaced by canons, but perhaps this is not correct.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
More on prebendaries.
preaching when Mr Dean has a hangover.
I was under the impression that following the reform of cathedral governance, Prebs were to be abolished and replaced by canons, but perhaps this is not correct.
Well Sean is right in that Exeter still has Prebendaries, (title, RevPreb) so unless it is just that Exeter enjoys being quaint , read into that what you will!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I belonged to an ECUSA church in New Hampshire where the children were expected to call the clergy Pastor Sally or Pastor Bob.
The adults just called them by their first names.
Pastor does have the advantage of being a gender-neutral term. Of course, it's suitable only for parish clergy.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
To CorgiGreta,
Were your Latin and typing teachers religious or lay?
Just wondering,
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
All this beings back fond memories of a now-deceased A-C (and formerly R-C layman) priest who was mightily put out over lunch when asked (in all politeness) by an R-C matron to "Please pass the gravy, Parson Hart".
I was not aware until now that all RC bishops had an honorary DD and could be addressed as "Dr". Fortunately the only one here who seems to insist on this is our very own Dr Pell , but he at least earned his 2 doctorates-there has to be something to be said for this!
In the work situation, I have been addressed as "Dr" despite being but a married bachelor. These days I get "Ma'am"-rather nice for a middle-ageing multipara. Probably not unsuitable as an honorific for a woman priest-and perhaps "your ladyship" for a bishop?
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Lincoln has prebendaries too, as well as blue cassocks.
One thing I've noticed is that in the States the clergy who are called "Father" or "Mother" tend to follow this with their surnames ("Father Mead", "Mother Picard" etc.) while in the UK it seems to be "Father Ted", "Mother Mavis" etc.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rachel_o:
If I understand the system correctly, curates in the CofE are ordained and then spend about a year working in a parish before being priested. Now, I call our curate Penny, but if I were trying to do things properly, should I have called her different things before and after her priesting?
Although I'm not sure, I think that the answer to this is that prior to her priesting she would have been a Deacon. Being at that point in holy orders, you would have been correct to refer to her as "The Revd J Smith". However, as she was not a priest I think it would have been incorrect to call her "Mother" (or "Father" or whatever else one believes it correct to call a priest).
Life is much simpler in places where first names are universal. If one of the regulars called our Rector 'Father' he would assume that they were taking the p***. And he'd be right.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
I have encountered people (even an Anglican or two) who apply the title 'Dr.' to all non-Catholic, non-Orthodox clergy, regardless of whether or not they have an earned or unearned doctorate.
Also, some clergy are themselves fond of using the title 'Dr.' even though the doctorate is in a field other than theology, divinity, or church studies. (Shades of Dr. Laura, whose degree is not in the area of psychology?). It may be technically correct but seems to border on a slight deception.
I don't have source, but I believe the correct way to address a Doctor of Divinity is: 'The Reverend Doctor Fred Bloggs'; while for a non-divinity doctorate one may say: 'Doctor, The Reverend Fred Blogss'
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Proper or not, I suppose the reason I so dislike using "Mrs," "Mr," etc. for the clergy is that I cannot get past its "down with popery" ring. It seems very protestant for those of us who consider ourselves to be pillars of Reformed Catholicism. (I equally shrink from parson because it seems to imply "rather than priest.")
That aside, in my lengthy and totally undistinguished career, during which I have met those with distinguished ones, I would say that I've known at least as many clergy whose doctoral degrees were in other fields than were in theology. I do not object to "Dr" (if the title is earned) because it is an academic title which does not imply that one is protesting against appearing too catholic.
I must say that I think that, in regard to the Church (and I am speaking of speech amongst Christians, not formal documents or media coverage), I greatly prefer that names in baptism (or religion) be used - they are far more important than the names of families.
The topic of address for the clergy, in informal situations, would make an interesting poll.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rachel_o:
If I understand the system correctly, curates in the CofE are ordained and then spend about a year working in a parish before being priested. Now, I call our curate Penny, but if I were trying to do things properly, should I have called her different things before and after her priesting?
That's right, and Chapelhead's hit the nail on the head. Assistant Curates (as the 'curate' would be the vicar/rector/priest-in-charge, who has the cure of souls) are first ordained to the Diaconate, and become Revd. They are usually ordained to the Priesthood after a year or so, but are not addressed as Mother/Father until this point. They may continue as assistant curate for another three years after that. This is the case with stipendiary ministry anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
If Angelus Domini makes it through the process he must not stamp his foot like the little butterfly in the story when such things occur.
Awwwww! But I stamp so well!
I hear what you're saying though Amos. Seeing as there is yet quite a lot of time before anything could even begin to happen, I suppose I have time to ponder on these things.
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Proper or not, I suppose the reason I so dislike using "Mrs," "Mr," etc. for the clergy is that I cannot get past its "down with popery" ring. It seems very protestant for those of us who consider ourselves to be pillars of Reformed Catholicism. (I equally shrink from parson because it seems to imply "rather than priest.")
I agree NO, it does come across as if making the point that the idea of the ordained priesthood is something from which we must distance ourselves.
"I'm deliberately calling you Mr and not Fr, because you're not a priest."
I also agree that Baptismal names ought to be the norm: Fr Richard, rather than Fr Taylor, mind you, Richard Taylor doesn't answer to 'Father' anyway; he just looks around to make sure you're talking to him.
RC x
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Slightly off topic, but another example of how purposely eliminating titles can be forms of promoting an agenda: A few years ago, I attended an RC service (some special occasion), and a priest who was about 100 years old was there. One nun whom I knew had a near-obsession with how the Church oppressed women - so much so that she just about anything sent her off on a tirade.
Another priest, seeing Sister R, introduced his senior with, "Have you met Monsignor X?" R immediately, and very tartly, reproached this old gentleman with, "Don't you think I'm going to call any man 'my Lord' with how the Church treats women!" An extreme case, to be sure, but one I'm not likely to forget soon.
Little true story I'd like to share with Regina Coeli, since he is so generous with his kisses: One of the Irish RC bishops, recognised while he was dining in a restaurant, had a young lady ask him for his autograph, which he provided - prefixing his name with the usual cross. Afterward, the grateful girl bob a curtsey, and add, "And thanks for the week kiss, My Lord."
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Sorry - I meant "added" thanks for the "wee" kiss... Practising for when I become pope on this thread must have left me weary.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
Gosh! Bishops being approached for their autographs.
Surely you just give their ring a kiss.
Thanks NO. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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[run-on lines of text overcome the formatting]
[ 31 July 2002, 16:50: Message edited by: Hooker's Trick ]
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
If I might be permitted to add some more trivia to this thread; in Victorian and pre-Victorian times, RC secular (viz., diocesan) priests were called Mr Jones, and regular clergy (belonging to an order or a religious community) were Fr Jones. I tried using this approach for a year or so, but found that too many of my interlocutors were confused or thought that I was just odd.
In Latin circles (pace Jesuitical Lad) in Canada and the US, permanent deacons are Mr Smith, and priests are called Fr Smith. Some Byzantine-rite clergy copy this, and others use the Deacon Basil or Father Wolodomyr approach.
For my own part, I am more and more leaning toward being OTT Slavic in my approach and calling Anglican clergy "Unworthy Priest-in-Charge Gladys" or "Sinful Deacon Lavinia." Surely they can't complain.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Ahhhh, am I enjoying the title trivia!
John Paul, of course, has a monumenal number of titles, "Servant of the Servants" of God among them. I remember an old joke about how, with bishops being servant of the servant of the servants, priests servants of (etc.), the laity remained just rich people with servant problems. Various religious Orders, Franciscans among them, referred to the superiors as "Servant" in one fashion or another - but my traditionalism ends there, largely because, in recent years, many congregations have used the title "Servant," "Minister" and so forth in order to mean "not superior." (One cannot tell adults what to do... in that mindset. I especially loathe such terms as "president.")
Of course, forms of address, intended to be warm, can become silly if they are used otherwise. The Poor Clares had a custom of the novices addressing their novice mistresses as "Dear Mistress." It was supposed to be loving, of course, but sometimes led to dreadful congregational newsletters having some starry-eyed nunlet writing a chronicle of her day containing such gems as "And then Dear Mistress instructed us in custody of the senses."
I'm working from memory (and my Latin was never any better than the horrid variety of English I for some reason have been using on this thread today...), but, as I recall, the Roman Catholic practise during Mass was for a celebrant who was a bishop to say "and I, your unworthy servant" during the part of the Eucharistic Prayer which refers to "together with Suchandsuch our pope, Soandso our bishop." I really like that, but I doubt that Unworthy Servant Richard will fall into vogue any time soon.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I can find no more info on what to call a Deacon, apart from that Orthodox guide I linked to earlier which expressed the posibility that a Deacon may be called Father.
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
In Orthodoxy (but not, as noted above, in Anglicanism) Deacons are indeed styled 'Father', as are monks, whether or not they are Priests.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
As a female Anglican priest in an English diocese, I'm called many things by different people! The parishioners call me by my first name, with no title; which seems to be perfectly comfortable to all of us. The kids I visit in school call me 'Reverend.....' followed by my first name, which seems to get across the message that I'm from the church but still marginally human.
When I'm doing funeral/baptism/marriage visits to usually non-churchy folk, I usually get labelled 'vicar'; though I'm not a vicar, but an Assistant Curate (as someone has pointed out 'vicar, rector' etc, are job-titles). But I don't worry about it. For the person who wondered about 'vicars' and 'rectors'. Rectors in the parish setting are usually the senior cleric set in charge over a number of Vicars - a bit like a managing director with his/her department managers, the 'departments' being other parishes. You often find this in team settings, where numbers of parishes have been combined into a Team Ministry working together, while maintaining the individualism of each parish. Often a rector will have his/her own parish church as well.
In our diocese I've yet to hear any female priest referred to as 'Mother' and am not sure how I'd feel being called this, though I'd probably get used to it. I imagine it would be more a high-church thing, though, just as 'Father' usually is. Sometimes, usually ironically, I'm referred to as 'Reverend'. Once or twice I have been called 'Padre' (there are two RAF bases within spitting distance of my town). Invariably, our local funeral director likes to refer to me in front of clients as 'The Reverend N******', which somehow makes me sound like a monument or institutional facility (maybe I am?!)
It might just be where I happen to live at the moment, but few people seem to have difficulty with calling their clergy by their first name; though I respect those who were brought up - as I was - to use a special term of address to clerics, and find the informality a bit unsettling.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
In my little corner of RC-dom, the use of Father Firstname vs Father Lastname is purely a function of the age of the priest. Currently the dividing line is running at a little over 60 yrs of age.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Carrying on the interesting tangent on curates and assistant curates...
Theological students are ordained deacon, and are asst. curates in a training parish for a year. Then they get ordained priets (priested?)
Once said deacon has been priested and played at asst. curate for 2/3 more years, they usually move on to getting their opwn parish. However, some larger parishes have 'proper' priests (i.e. those who have been ordained for more than 4 years) as asst. curates - for example HTB, that fount of good practice. Our church has an asst. curate, who was priested in June. She currently plans to stay with us for the next 3-4 years, and possibly beyond ![[Smile]](smile.gif) The vicar has a large enough workload that she is definitely very needed here! I enquired of her, and she said that she can technically stay here for the rest of her working life, although that would probably be frowned upon, as we are her training parish and she should geain exposure to other parishes and churches at some point ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Parson is an old term recently defined in our church magazine Here's the definition:
For years clergy have been unofficially called parsons. The word means the person. Before the days of probation officers, social services and citizens' advice bureaux, the parson was the person to go to. Allocting money to the poor, coping with vagrants, overseeing almshouses were all his concerns. He was not the most important person in the community, but ordinary people could not approach important folk like the Lord of the Manor with their concerns. The parish priest was the person to go to with problems or in times of need. These days vicars do not hold such a commanding community role(!). Hence the term parson is rarely used - and then mostly by elderly people in remote communities
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
In Orthodoxy (but not, as noted above, in Anglicanism) Deacons are indeed styled 'Father', as are monks, whether or not they are Priests.
Your point being? Not only do I desire to use a parental appellation to certain deacons, but I have some evidence of its normalcy elsewhere.
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Regarding the use of surnames, I once read a newspaper article about a minister called 'Pastor Way'. It struck me in that instance he would have been better being addressed by his first name. It also struck me that he was probably rather good at taking funerals........
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beethoven
Ship's deaf genius
# 114
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Posted
I've come to this thread a little late, being on shore at the moment and all that, but thought I'd add my tuppon'orth anyway...
In general I prefer to address priests as 'father' except in cases where I know this would cause offence or upset. This applies euqlly to women as well as men - the friend who was deaconed this year will indeed be Father Jenny next Petertide. I am fortunate, though, in that the majority of women clergy I know are friends, in which case I feel perfectly happy to address them by their first name alone. Altogether I have 3 forms of address for priests: 'Father' (when talking to them), 'Fr x' for referring to them, or first name only (either sitation).
Mr B, being considerably better educated than I, has adopted the title 'Pateresa' from Greek, to use for women priests. This seems to have been happily accepted.
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Who wants to be a rock anyway?
toujours gai!
Posts: 1309 | From: Here (and occasionally there) | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Mostly, I find, it's older Irishmen, often in the building trade, who call me "Father". "Good mornin' to ye, Father!" "Good morning, my sons!" Then they look surprised.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Ed Bakker
Shipmate
# 2706
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Regina Caeli:
Afterthought,
What d'you call a female bishop?
m'Lady?
Perhaps some of you folk across the pond could give some advice here.
We have just the one female Anglican Bishop in New Zealand, she is the Bishop of Dunedin and her name is Penny Jamieson.I know Penny way back from years ago when she was an Assistant Priest in Lower Hutt, near Wellington, so when I would meet up with her again I would call her Penny. I believe others call her Bishop Penny.Like the Australian way, we take a more casual approach here, so I dont think anyone would call her Reverend Mother in God or anything like that.
Whilst years ago I remember choirmembers addressing the Bishop of Wellington ( male )as my Lord, I dont think anyone would use the title M'Lady for a female Bishop. I appreciate your train of thought on this Regina Caeli.
Grace & Peace..
Ed
Lord, it is my chief complaint
That my love is weak and faint
Yet, I love Thee and adore
O,for Grace to love Thee more
(William Cowper)
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Restless... until we rest in Thee Saint Augustine
Posts: 57 | From: Oxford New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I really enjoyed your post, Father Mother Amos! It reminded me, as well, of how the implications of manners of address can change from one generation to the next. I can just about recall when the clergy (generally those with the lovely lilt of Ireland in their voices) addressed members of their flocks as "my child," but, while that had warmth then (I'm not referring to Amos here - this is general), today it could seem mocking. When convents indeed had "Mother Genevieve," the title was warm and respectful. Later, when most eliminated the practise, it was often used in the context of sarcastic jokes. (Those of us who kissed bishop's rings, depending on the company, were either considered respectful or silly... more than once, I had young priests mistakenly think I was mocking the "old ways.")
I always saw the religious title of "Sister" as loving and meaning "I'm here for you - I am your Sister," but, remembering all too well when not to include "Sister" in any sentence addressed to a nun in school could mean a scolding (not that one addressed her as Peg, which would have been deliberately cheeky and led to a well-deserved swat - but perish the thought that a question such as "Would that have been common in the middle ages?" did not include "Sister?"), I could well understand that element's not coming through.
I would say that what is key, in the matter under discussion, is whether separate forms are used, in the same place (since clearly customs vary even between churches a mile apart) or context, for priests of basically the same generation, depending only on their sex. Obviously, it could be a matter of personal preference, but there certainly could be an implicit condescension. (I prefer to be called Elizabeth - but it did seem strange when, in the office where I worked, my own boss referred to my male subordinates, who did not prefer the honorific, as "Mr X," and me as Elizabeth!)
One further question (just out of curiosity) for the clergy here. If one like myself, who does not address priests by Christian names unless I'm invited to do so, initially addresses you as "Father/Mother," would this be perceived as the sign of respect which I intend, or as an implicit statement of "I'm placing distance between us here"?
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Personally, I would take it as a sign of respect, N-O, but a great deal depends, as you've said, on tone of voice and body language.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
I understand that some call female priests "father", but if for no other reason than the word itself being masculine, doesn't this jar a bit? I can see "mother" working, but the rationale for "father" seems a bit obscure.
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Corpus cani
Ship's Anachronism
# 1663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Lincoln has prebendaries too, as well as blue cassocks.
Yes and no. Or rather, yes and no and yes.
As far as I'm aware Prebendaries and Canons are the same thing and have been for more years than anyone cares to remember. Some cathedrals (e.g. Exeter and London) call 'em Prebendaries but most call them Canons. Originally, a Canon would have been in receipt of a financial benefit derived from a Parish (where he might never go!) called a Prebend.
Thus, a canon has a seat in the Choir of the Cathedral called a Prebendal Stall - a prebend and a canonry are the same thing.
Members of Chapter at Lincoln Cathedral are, and always have been, called Canons not Prebendaries. Forgive me the sin of pride, but I claim considerable experience of Lincoln Chapter!
Several cathedrals have their own coloured cassocks - a foundation colour. Lincoln's cassocks are dyed with a unique dye known as "Lincoln blue" which makes it sound nice and old fashioned, like "Lincoln Red" and "Lincoln Green". It's actually a fairly modern tradition.
Corpus
Posts: 4435 | From: Trumpton | Registered: Nov 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Thanks for the correction, Corpus; I was recalling the announcement when an acquaintance was made one---we were told he was now a prebendary.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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oldlccboy
Shipmate
# 1040
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Posted
As one who does not accept the ordination of women, but who does run into several such individuals, one in the course of a professional involvement, one married to a friend, I simply call them by their first names, which of course I would hardly do to a male priest.
My practice has the advantage of a) being to their liking, since most of them are fairly informal and liberal(as they would have to be given their innovative status in Catholic Christendom) and b) not giving them a status out of courtesy or awkwardness which I do not believe they possess in fact.
Don't yell. And don't tell me my role as a Baptismal Minister is also innovative, informal and liberal. It is. But I am not asking anyone to denominate me in any particular way !
Posts: 130 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
a) being to their liking, since most of them are fairly informal and liberal
By all means tell us you don't "believe" in women priests, oldlccboy, but this is a stunningly chauvinist assumption, however you view it.
How do you know that it is "to their liking"? Let alone that most of them are informal and "liberal"?
And not giving them a courtesy title (regardless of what you believe about their canonical status) strikes me as malicious and rude, however much they might "like" being called by their first names only. **
Especially when you would "never dream" of calling a male priest anything other than "Father". We call Jewish synagogue leaders "Rabbi", we call Islamic leaders "Imam", we accord all sorts of other courtesy titles to those who don't agree with us. I see no reason not to accord respect to women who in the eyes of most of us in the Anglican church, have been ordained. They too have been trained like men, and serve as men do. If for nothing else they should be respected in a courteous way.
We know you don't like women priests because of blah blah blay reasons. It's fine for you not to like them.
But what isn't fine is the way you talk about them - as though you have such a hatred for women who might be chosen and ordained in different areas of the church, to the "undermining" of "true religion" etc etc.
A bit of graciousness about the issue would go a long way.
**Saying "They like it" sounds similar to me to the age old assumption that women "like being raped." Remind me NOT to stop by your place...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Benedictus
Shipmate
# 1215
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Posted
Thank you, Nunc. I thought all that same stuff, but I wouldn't have said it nearly so well.
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Resentment: Me drinking poison and expecting them to die
Posts: 1378 | From: Hertfordshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
A person who calls all male clergy by a title of courtesy and first-names all female clergy would inevitably give the impression that he wished to make a point of his contempt for ordained women. However the clergy receive it, it makes the person in question look very bad. Really, I should reconsider this custom.
I would also contest the assumption that theologically orthodox High Churchwomen are not likely to have vocations to the priesthood.
All of this reminds me of the occasion a few weeks ago when I was in Croydon, having business in Lunar House. It took all day, it was the kind of thing that one wears a black suit and collar for, and I was exhausted when I came out, having a long journey home ahead of me. Seeing a church open, I went in to sit down for a few minutes of quiet. But it took less time than that for a person to appear at my elbow saying , "This is a Forward in Faith Parish." When I didn't seem to realize what was meant, the words were repeated.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
I agree with the last few posters most wholeheartedly.....
Rev. Rowen
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
It took all day, it was the kind of thing that one wears a black suit and collar for, and I was exhausted when I came out, having a long journey home ahead of me. Seeing a church open, I went in to sit down for a few minutes of quiet. But it took less time than that for a person to appear at my elbow saying , "This is a Forward in Faith Parish." When I didn't seem to realize what was meant, the words were repeated.
How does one respond in these circumstances?
"Thankyou."
"How nice."
"Yes?"
"I forgive you."
"It's ok, I'm not going to Absolve, Bless or Consecrate anything."
What *was* meant by the way? That you should leave the building? Or merely that you are not welcome?
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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