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Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
I have read articles on them, I have read excerpts from them, and I have had friends who love them dearly tell me what happens in the story. I have seen excerpts of the movie. Now, given these bits and pieces, you may say what you like, but I know enough of it to tell that my spirit is repulsed by the flavor of these books.

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Now this strikes me as interesting, and I will try and explain why.

Many, many years there were some Sunday papers lying around a family sitting room. They made mention of the then current obscenity trial involving 'Lady Chatterley's Lover'. Our parents said: You MUST NOT read THAT story (but imposed no interdict on reading the other improving material contained in the average Sunday tabloid). They had received the impression, you see, that here was a book so powerfully corrupting that even reading about it would - well, they probably couldn't have said exactly, but clearly it would be something extremely bad.

It looks from here as if Harry Potter has for Poet of Gold the same frisson of evil, the same horror as of some unscopable wickedness.

But how exactly? Others - most others - find only an average-to-interesting children's book. (Or, in the case of DH Lawrence, Great Literature or rather boring books, depending).

The answer, it appears, is that WE invest these stories with their power. WE attribute to this or that author or book an ability to shock or terrify (or bring down the fabric of society as we know it).

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And yes...in today's Sunday Mail (not bought by me)'Why this man is the most dangerous children's author writing today'. A diatribe against Pullman as a sort of anti - CS Lewis setting out to corrupt our children and turn them into promiscuous liberal atheists. Also contains the intriguing suggestion that the Narnia books can somehow save those unhappy tots who have had the misfortune to be brought up by (shudder) liberal parents!

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Good old Peter Hitchen

Actually this article bothered me but it was only until last night I worked out why …

The main difference between the books is that Lewis’ agenda is, pretty much, hidden. You can read the books and not have a clue about the religious symbolism as it is part of the story. Pullman’s books (well certainly the third which I am ploughing through at the moment) contains a lot of tub-thumping which detracts from the story. Mainly because it’s so blooming annoying and really slows things down!

Children will encounter the books at a completely different age so are likely to read both anyway. Lewis’ books are filed in the ordinary fiction section of most libraries and bookshops while Pullman’s are filed in the older readers section. Ordinary fiction is probably aimed at children between 8 – 11 while Pullman’s books are aimed at 12’s and overs.

And if Christian parents really don’t want their kids to read fiction by that nasty Mr Pullman, there is an alternative. The Wind on Fire trilogy by William Nicholson (who wrote Shadowlands) which is fab.

Info Here!

Possibly a more interesting discussion would be why some people invest certain things / issues with such power ...

Hmm... this discussion seems to be straying beyond the UM borders. Originally, I launched the thread with refs to more religious leaders claiming that HP was leading kids into the occult. The most recent discussion about witches and biblical references and so on are much more Purgatorial. So.. would folks like to continue the discussion in that vein? If so, What I'll do is is disconnect that part of this thread and replant it in Purgatory. Thoughts?

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Originally posted by Gherkin:
As to people who have been involved with the occult, of course they see danger in more places than other people. As an ex-smoker I think I have more trouble going into places where people are smoking than my friends who never smoked, just because I get more tempted than they do.

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Yep, makes sense! Just wondered what other people thought of that.

The thing that makes me really sad about this whole HP thing is that it seems to me that Christians who don't want anything to do with the books are missing a golden opportunity to engage with our culture. If we don't have the imagination or creativity to use, for example, the fact of Harry's mother dying to save him, and this then protecting him later in life (book 1 - Harry's encounter with Quirrel/Voldemort), as a way of helping to explain to our kids what Jesus did for them, I'm a bit worried. (I'm not, of course, saying that this is intended as an analogy for Christ's sacrifice for us. Doesn't stop me using it though.)

The devil can and will use anything to get at us and our kids. He'll use Harry Potter if we let him, and if we therefore have nothing to do with the books etc we might as well just hand them over to the devil for him to do with as he likes. Our question should be 'how do we use this as a tool for God'?

I had another point and it's disppeared from my brain now... that's always happenening to me....

I have read the first 2 books and have also read a lot of the information and discussion going round Christian circles about them, and I am more and more convinced that they are not suitable books. I do believe they are dangerous. I am not saying they should be banned completely and I certainly disagree with book burning, BUT I do acknowledge the influence they CAN and DO have on our children. We need to read them WITH our children and discuss openly with them about why we disagree with the values and practises portrayed.

I work with kids in my Church on a weekly basis and have been involved in Christian kids work for the past 6/7 years. I have also worked in secular situations as well as specifically Christian ones. I agree that we can sometimes underestimate the discernment kids can have, but that doesn't mean: all kids are like that: CHILDREN ARE INFLUENCED BY FICTION whether you like to admit it or not.

I am not going to get into a huge discussion about Potter cos it's all been said many many times before: but I just want to challenge you to think about who you would like your own children to have as role-models. Children do look to both reality and fiction for their role-models and for many kids: Potter is it, for others it's Sabrina, for others still it's a footballer, pop-star or TV presenter. Do these people (real or otherwise) really portray the values we want our children to grow up accepting?

We can discuss these things til we are blue in the face (and discussing and analysing is good and proper) but that is worth nothing unless we ourselves set about providing a GOOD role-model with CHRISTIAN values for our kids to follow.

And, as someone mentioned earlier, there is arguably much more danger in books which imply that getting a boyfriend/girlfriend/makeover is the ultimate way to find fulfilment, than in books which really challenge children with the reality of good and evil.

We probably need to guard against suggesting that these books are promoting specifically Christian values, because they aren't based in a Christian framework. However, Ruthie - is your argument that we should only allow children to read specifically Christian books, so that this is their only influence in learning to deal with the world?

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
I think you've really hit the nail on the head in terms of how most of us want the Potter books handled--read them with your children and discuss them. Parents really should be doing that with everything there kids are being exposed to--watching television with them, checking (and spot-listening) to the music they listen to, and reading the books they read.

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Absolutely. The discussion I've mentioned took place last night, and there was a lot of discussion about how some of the Harry Potter sites on the web have links to wicca and pagan sites, and that it is quite easy to start off in the fiction, and end up in the fact. I can understand that some will therefore feel more comfortable keeping their kids away from Harry Potter altogether, but surely you could also say - don't let your child have unsupervised access to the internet. (Given some of the stuff that's out there, I'd say that anyway)

This is the point I forgot in my last post - above! It is harder to commit to spending time with your children checking on them on the internet, reading their books with them, listening to their music, than to simply ban them. And I think that sometimes the knee-jerk 'ban this!' reactions are to do with an unwillingness to confront issues as much as concern for kids.

An example of this in discussion yesterday: I was asking about consistency in our attitudes and about how sometimes people have a problem with Harry Potter type stuff, but no problem with their kids watching violence and then playing at soldiers or fighting or what-have-you. Apparently, playing with guns is different 'because you can't stop them'.

Two of us we anaylsing the plot of the film at homegroup a few weeks ago. So what do we have:

A special child who evil could not kill shortly after birth.

The unconditional love of Harry's parents.

Ron's self sacrfice so that Harry could go on to defeat evil.

The fact that Harry only got the stone because he didn't want to use it for his own ends.

Altogether a very moral story with a heavy christian influence?

I believe the more we sanatise our childrens upbringing the more likely they are to investigate these things (in a more serious way) later in life. Whereas if we represent witchcraft etc as fiction/fantasy they will be far more skeptical about the whole thing from the start (although we need to be careful not to trivialise the occult).

I await responses with interest...

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Originally posted by SteveS:
Whereas if we represent witchcraft etc as fiction/fantasy they will be far more skeptical about the whole thing from the start (although we need to be careful not to trivialise the occult).

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To clarify I think 'skeptical' in sense of appreciating that there are dangers and being questioning about what is a threat and what isn't.

To answer your questions (even though we are not in purgatory).

1) If it can't be explained by the laws of nature I accept it as supernatural (isn't that the definition of the word?)

2) If it brings glory to God then it is good, otherwise not (although there is probably some grey here).

3) With God's help the best we can.

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Originally posted by SteveS:
To clarify I think 'skeptical' in sense of appreciating that there are dangers and being questioning about what is a threat and what isn't.

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I find it rather worrying that Poet of Gold has only posted 4 times on the Ship and only about Harry Potter. And this from someone who has not actually read one of the books. Reading extracts, or hearing other's synopsis, or people's articles will not give a correct impression of the books as they really are.

If your spirit is so troubled by the books that you are unable to read them, then may I suggest that your best course of action would be to remove yourself from them completely.

It seems that it is developing into an itch that needs to be scratched. Stop seeing snippets of the movie, stop reading snatches from the books, and stop reading articles and reviews. If it really is evil then flee from it. Do not polute yourself.

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I am, however, saying that our children need not be steeped in occultic nonsense. If one is to err, why not err on the side of safety instead of taking that chance

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Originally posted by Cusanus:
Hmmm... 'safety'....
Now who do you think has done more harm to children over the past century... occultists or the Christian church?

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Tinfoil hat FIRMLY ON
We are not going to open that particular discussion on this board. It is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand and is way beyond the bounds of this forum.

Tinfoil hat OFF

edited to correct spelling

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If your spirit is so troubled by the books that you are unable to read them, then may I suggest that your best course of action would be to remove yourself from them completely.

It seems that it is developing into an itch that needs to be scratched. Stop seeing snippets of the movie, stop reading snatches from the books, and stop reading articles and reviews. If it really is evil then flee from it. Do not polute yourself.

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I would echo that ... CS Lewis said that either people would end up dimissing the devil completely or end up being way, way, way too interested in what he was getting up to. If HP bothers you that much - then stop reading about it, posting about it etc. If you want a Biblical justification then try - "If your right hand causes you to sin, then cut it off". Have a look around the rest of the site and avoid this thread.

I've no problem with people disliking HP and not wishing to read it themselves. I do have a problem with people denouncing JK Rowling as a Satanist etc and insisting that, because they don't like it, no one else should either.

HP is essentially a soft target - I'm more worried about the books that tell kids that they're nothing if they're not rich / thin / wearing the right clothes / have a boy or girl friend / good at <whatever>. But for some strange reason we keep very quiet about those. [Don't get me started about Barbie .... ]

Does it occur to any of the self-righteous incinerators that there is a reason why more of her than, say, the productions of the 'Christian' presses are read? And it is not anything to do with the subtle wiles of Satan, but a lot to do with a longing for an other, wilder and richer dimension beyond the mundane?

They are not the greatest literature in the world, but demonising - or knocking - them is to me a way of ignoring the most important part of our being.

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Originally posted by Firenze:
Since when is it JK Rowling's fault that she writes popular books?

Does it occur to any of the self-righteous incinerators that there is a reason why more of her than, say, the productions of the 'Christian' presses are read? And it is not anything to do with the subtle wiles of Satan, but a lot to do with a longing for an other, wilder and richer dimension beyond the mundane?

They are not the greatest literature in the world, but demonising - or knocking - them is to me a way of ignoring the most important part of our being.

UCF (Unusually Cross Firenze)

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Thank you for your marvellous post. It is true that the most magnificent things are the smallest things, those least noticed and often hardest to do.

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Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
The enemy mixes a little truth with every lie, and we must not think ourselves immune from his traps, but must rather pray and ask for God's wisdom and protection.[/QB]

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Absolutely.

Look. HP is a harmless children's book. End of story. It doesn't matter a toss compared with real issues - poverty, aids, injustice, fair trade, but it's got those who are prone to paranoid spirituality with their heads right up their backsides.

How many children have died of starvation since we started debating these books? 30,000 a day isn't it? That's where your Satan is rejoicing, not on kids' bookshelves. About this, most Christians, as the great Tony Compolo said, don't give a shit. On the other hand, since this is the Ship and 'shit' is perfectly normal, I'll say that most Christians don't give a flying fuck.

But a story about a boy becoming a fairytale wizard - that's really important isn't it?

At the same time I'd say that I believe black magic, and spellcasting in general as I understand it, to be extremely dangerous, terribly immoral and forbidden, really destructive (at least to the people involved in it) and such. And what some people are (I believe mistakenly) worried about is that temptations to forbidden supernatural power will come to their children through these books. That is a serious matter indeed. The fact that other bad things are more visible, yet horribly ignored, by many (perhaps most) Christians in the West doesn't negate the other.

(It could be argued that technically, the root temptation in both of these situations (real or imagined) is not magic (also real or imagined) -- but the temptation to power, full stop. Are not greed, power-hungriness and the like largely responsible for those crises you mention, Karl? And if we are worried about messages we send children, isn't the way things go in this world -- suggesting to them that they need to grow up to make as much money as they can, and the cultural attitudes behind it -- the root of what would tempt someone to forbidden magic in the first place?)

I think many Christians who worry about the Potter books, or role-playing games, or any number of related "magic-oriented" things, are looking at it the wrong way. They really are treating the books as "forbidden knowledge," and the "information" in them, as the dangerous thing. The dangerous thing, I believe, is the desire to be in that kind of control, whether you use magic(k) or money, and I believe that is the root sin of forbidden traffic with supernatural entities -- going to the Devil is practically a side-effect. If they could do it (and some try to, whether with a more religious coating or not) via God they would.

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Originally posted by Slavophone:

Oh, well, you know, even administrators can live under bridges and try to scare poor billy goats.

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Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
I do not hate anyone who reads this series. I merely desire them to exercise caution. The enemy mixes a little truth with every lie, and we must not think ourselves immune from his traps, but must rather pray and ask for God's wisdom and protection.

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Originally posted by Karl:
It doesn't matter a toss compared with real issues - poverty, aids, injustice, fair trade, but it's got those who are prone to paranoid spirituality with their heads right up their backsides.

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
Let's worry about real evil. Priests molesting children. Ministers preaching intolerance. Homeless people dying on our streets while we are warm and well fed.

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Yeah OK, on the one hand I couldn't agree more - all the paranoia about HP is way, way out of proportion.

But, I'm a bit suspicious of this line of argument. It reminds me of people who say "ah, but think what the people in Afghanistan are going through" when you just want to talk about your bad day at work.

I mean, it is perfectly valid to discuss the Harry Potter books and have an opinion about them, or to be concerned about them. That's what this thread is for, isn't it? Otherwise, we'd only have threads for discussing so-called "real issues".

It's just a question of not getting it out of all proportion. Since we're only discussing HP in this thread, I don't feel qualified to judge whether contributors are personally over-preoccupied with HP or whether they're just thoroughly involved in this discussion.

I am reminded of something C.S. Lewis wrote--I think it was in his autobiography. He discussed being afflicted with the terrible temptation to tip his hat to the moon while walking at night.

He referred to it as "vestigial paganism" or something to that effect. If I recall the passage correctly, he discussed how terrible a sin it would be for him to do so, because it would be an homage to or worship of an unworthy object.

So, to expand on Chastmastr's thesis, the danger lies not only in the lust for power, but also in the things we give power to. The things we allow to control us.

And it's the same thing, isn't it? The locus of satanic power is the willingness to obtain power through consorting with forces that will eventually overmaster and enslave us.

And I don't think we necessarily have to be talking about the occult here. Lord knows there are enough addictions and fascinations out there--without making Faustian bargains--to drag us into hell.

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
And your point is?

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That an administrator (i.e. Dyfrig) was behaving a little like a troll (see his post immediately above), by making an unfunny joke about J.K. Rowling's intentions in a forum likely to be frequented by people who like a certain thing (see Firenze's post) written by her. I'm not trying to bring up charges or anything, but can't I make my own unfunny jokes?

As for Harry Potter, my opinion is pretty well-summed up by the review by Mark Jacobs, professor of English as Wheaton College. Indeed, the attractive thing about the books, for a jaded old SF reader like myself, is their moral universe. It may be a little unambiguous and heavy-handed at times, but as is mentioned in the above review, none of the children, including Harry himself, are <i>inevitably</i> good. They all make mistakes, incorrect choices and, quite frankly, decisions which are immoral in their universe. Sometimes they get away without detection by adults, sometimes they don't, but they always have to deal with the consequences of their actions, good or bad.

I frankly don't see what all the fuss is about, really. While I believe in the supernatural, as a Christian I suppose that's obvious, the magic in the books bears so little resemblance to the occult that the whole idea makes me chuckle a bit. Even if it did, I'd be much more interested in the moral universe that the characters exist in if I were deciding whether to get my nieces a copy or not. Then again, I played AD&D so I guess I've already been desensitized to the snares of Satan in fantasy literature.

[UBB is your friend]

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Originally posted by Fibonacci's Number:
But, I'm a bit suspicious of this line of argument. It reminds me of people who say "ah, but think what the people in Afghanistan are going through" when you just want to talk about your bad day at work...I mean, it is perfectly valid to discuss the Harry Potter books and have an opinion about them, or to be concerned about them. That's what this thread is for, isn't it? Otherwise, we'd only have threads for discussing so-called "real issues".

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I am not saying we shouldn't discuss it. It is worthy of discussion. I'm saying that the people who are terrified of the 'evil' in Harry Potter are ignoring the true evil in the world.

Under everyone's user name on the left of a post is their status and member number. You are an Apprentice (i.e. still new), most people are a Shipmate, a handful have Administrator after their names. Dyfrig is not one of them.

Hosts (like Dyfrig, Siegfried, myself) have the word Host under their name only on the board which they are responsible for.

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Originally posted by SteveTom:
(The point is, Fibonacci's Number, that if you were claiming your bad day at work was an attack of Satanic evil, you'd deserve the comment.)

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Beautifully put

Like I said, it's a question of priorities. And to those who feel that this is part of a global witchcraft/occult movement, well, to them it is a priority. I disagree with them, but I would defend to the death their right to voice their anxieties. As Siegfried said, so long as it isn't to the neglect of "real evil".

.....Real evil, though...hmmm. I was interested to note that pretty much all the examples of "real evil" that Siegfried & Karl gave were "social evils" - poverty, injustice, fair trade, homelessness etc. Whereas those who worry about the occult, along with many conservative Christians, are equally if not more concerned with "personal evils". I know churches have focused on personal evil to the neglect of social evil for centuries. But there has to be a proper balance between the two. And of course they are interrelated.

The reason I objected to the "let's focus on real evil" argument was that it seemed to be implying that social evils are the "real" ones and personal evils, including experimenting with the occult, of little comparative importance.

Once again - I don't think for a moment that HP readers are dabbling in the occult. But for those who do think so, it's a serious issue and deserves to be treated as such.

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But for
those who do think so, it's a serious issue and deserves to be treated as such.

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Originally posted by Dyfrig:
I'm afraid, Slavophone, that you will have to direct your comments to Mr Hugh Dennis (son of the bishop of St Edmundsbury, IIRC) c/o the British Broadcasting Corporation, from whom that joke was nicked.

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C'mon people. Let's worry about real evil. Priests molesting children. Ministers preaching intolerance. Homeless people dying on our streets while we are warm and well fed.

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"or, worse, you get hamfisted morons like Frank Peretti or the two guys who wrote the Left Behind books who impose their own (well dodgy) doctrine on their fiction because they don't see fiction as symbolic narrative"