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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Okay, that's it.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
The latest from Interpol has left me with no choice but to crawl under the covers and watch reruns of Hazel and Donna Reed and eat cinnamon toast and drink hot chocolate with mini marshmallows.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 10. March 2003, 00:57: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Black Dog
Shipmate
# 2344
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Posted
Im not suprised to be honest, and all the do gooders clamber together and say, hey leave saddam alone etc. They all, as my dad says p*ss in the same bucket, we need to hunt them all down like dogs before they destroy the world as we know it. Bin Laden can kiss my grits.
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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.
Posts: 453 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Maybe we should take the Vlad the Impaler approach -- you know, terrorists' heads on stakes around the perimeter.
I think that's a valid defense alternative, myself.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Black Dog
Shipmate
# 2344
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Posted
The genuine thing is, if we do not act swiftly the end consequences could be just that bad. It may be years away but if these nutters do something comparible to 9/11 or worse the sh*t will more than hit the fan. I fear the worst.
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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.
Posts: 453 | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Lad Himself
Accidental stowaway
# 2073
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Posted
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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new blog: crazywise.org
Posts: 2302 | From: Southport, UK | Registered: Dec 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Yes, it is terrifying, of course. In the worst case scenario it could tip humanity back into lives of complete barbarism - you know, sticking your enemies heads up on poles around your perimeter and all that.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
The latest from Interpol has left me with no choice but to crawl under the covers and watch reruns of Hazel and Donna Reed and eat cinnamon toast and drink hot chocolate with mini marshmallows.
...with a favorite blankie and several stuffed animals...
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
Yes, it is terrifying, of course. In the worst case scenario it could tip humanity back into lives of complete barbarism - you know, sticking your enemies heads up on poles around your perimeter and all that.
They are already barbarians and savages. We just need to start speaking their language.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Yes, if we all would only speak the language of barbarism, just think what an uplifting conversation we could have.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I know this isn't really the place, but can you really imagine Jesus saying
'When your enemy flies aeroplanes into your towerblocks, go and flatten a country because you don't like their despotic leader'?
I'm sorry but I can't.
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arse
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Look, Qlib, if you want to sacrifice yourself on the altar of these sick fucks' cause, I don't see anyone stopping you. I, however, live in the real world, and I know that there is no reasoning with savages. The only language they understand is "kill or be killed", and I do not have the moral authority to decide for every man, woman and child in the west that they deserve to die because we don't want to deal with these bastards in ways they understand. You feel qualified to do that, more power to you. IMO, that's pretty damned arrogant, but there you go.
And Nosmo, wtf ARE you talking about?
[ 10. November 2002, 19:23: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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The Lad Himself
Accidental stowaway
# 2073
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Posted
No, but I think He understands the principle of defending one's country. If this is self-defence. I dunno.
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new blog: crazywise.org
Posts: 2302 | From: Southport, UK | Registered: Dec 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Come now; be realistic.
Sometimes you've got to put down the harp and pick up the sword. If you don't, you'll be out-competed by those who do. Wouldn't it be a shame if christianity and western civilization was smothered by islamic militants in an effect that can only be described as Darwinistic?
Like my shirt? The concentric rings are rather fetching, aren't they?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
What and attack innocent people? Sorry, that doesn't fit my definition of a just war
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Look, Qlib, if you want to sacrifice yourself on the altar of these sick fucks' cause, I don't see anyone stopping you.
Did I say anything about self-sacrifice? I don't want to die, either. quote:
I do not have the moral authority to decide for every man, woman and child in the west that they deserve to die because we don't want to deal with these bastards in ways they understand.
No and you and I don't have the moral authority to make those kind of decisions for people in countries not 'in the west', either.
What are we afraid of here? That these people (mad, bad, dangerous, heartless, savage, whatever) will drag us all to Armageddon? So why would we ourselves scurry towards Armageddon as fast as our legs will carry us?
Erin, I grew up with people who hated the Soviet Union so much that they supported the erosion of ciivil liberties in the name of 'freedom' and would contemplate nuclear holocaust for the same reason. They are some causes which are lost as soon as you descend to the level of your enemies.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Nosmo, this IS NOT AN IRAQ THREAD. Unless, of course, you are now equating al Qaeda with Iraq.
Christ Almighty.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Qlib, I direct you to my post above.
Of course, if either of you had read the article linked in the OP, you would have known this without my having to state it.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Not at all. It wasn't me who linked Iraq to the War on Terrorism
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Erin,
Perhaps you would like to show me the occasion that we tried the way of peace and humility with these tyrrants. Show me where we tried to feed them, clothe them, heal them. I'm sorry, the way of peace has not failed, it has not been tried.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I never said I thought this was about Iraq - though Iraq is undoubtedly part of it. I agree that the 'war against terrorism' is not over. The question is, what is the best way of waging such a war? Not by descending to the standards of the terrorists, that's for sure. That way, they win the war, before it's even started.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Nosmo, I have no idea what universe you inhabit, or how you managed to open a communications link from there to here.
Qlib, I just don't believe that there is any way that they can be stopped short of killing them. Though perhaps this is the time to break the biblical prohibition against communicating with the dead and hold a seance wherein we contact the al Qaeda who flew planes into the various buildings and they can explain how it is that paradise smells of fire and brimstone and that the 72 promised virgins are really 72000 demons who take the concept of sadomasochism to new and previously unexplored heights.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Although a pacifist myself, I don't have a problem with the idea of a society deciding to execute terrorists. But I do have a problem with: - killing people at random
- not making absolutely sure you've got the right people before you start the executions
- sticking their heads up on poles (literally or figuratively)
The real war is for people's hearts and minds - you don't win those through barbarism.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Black Dog
Shipmate
# 2344
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Posted
Qlib, the hearts and minds of these people are so far gone we cannot imagine what horror they are planning, why can't people just show a little backbone on these issues?
As for linking this to Iraq, am i the only one who remembers a certain mr hussain celebrating the attacks on the twin towers?
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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.
Posts: 453 | Registered: Feb 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I don't imagine you can win committed terrorists over. But neither can you deal with them in this way until they have showed their hand - by which time it is often too late. And what is the point of threatening to kill people who are clearly unafraid of death?
'The war against terrorism' as currently being waged has never taken into account that you cannot bomb terrorists out of existence. Terrorism is like the Hydra - cut one head off and a new head will grow - and strike out at you. The British have learnt this in Ireland (I think). The Israelis may eventually learn the same. To tackle terrorism you have to address the issues that gave birth to the terrorists. You can only defeat terrorism with justice. There is no other way - descending to injustice ourselves just adds to the futility of death and destruction.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Screw it, I'm going back to plan A, which is regress to childhood. I don't want to be an adult any more, it's scary out there.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Hull Hound
Shipmate
# 2140
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Posted
From the report ‘The group said it had targeted "nightclubs and whorehouses in Indonesia".’ I’ve been to most of them in Jakarta and they’re places where Westerners have a good time. Rich Indonesians just fucked their maids.
The semi-perm ex-pats were nearly all wasters and the majority fed off Indonesian society and young women were bottom of the food chain. Two of the biggest whorers, English guys, moved into the house that the Dutch paedophile left after his boys grew up and started stealing from him. One of the Englishmen died of an overdose in the brief year I was there. Their American sex tourist friend moved on to fresh pastures in Cambodia. There were plenty of good people there but we were difficult to distinguish from the arseholes.
Despite President Soeharto being a stalwart of the West during the cold war it seemed that only his family became rich and Western standards of civil rights were not even worked towards. The democratic process was a show. I arrived and left in the year of the mini revolution. And then the harvest of the Asian financial crisis gifted the population with basic commodity prices raised beyond hope but only because the IMF only has one plan.
I can honestly see that from the perspective of some Indonesians, they have been fucked over- their daughters have been fucked by the West. I will make the assumption that, with local variations, there are similar patterns throughout the world. Radicalised people are made they are not born and unfortunately and inaccurately we are all seen as complicit. Assassinations, bombs dropped, inspections, fiscal measures etc. will be a very temporary solution at best.
(sadly pessimistic)
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ahhh ... Bisto!
Posts: 1167 | From: Hull | Registered: Jan 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Though perhaps this is the time to break the biblical prohibition against communicating with the dead and hold a seance wherein we contact the al Qaeda who flew planes into the various buildings and they can explain how it is that paradise smells of fire and brimstone and that the 72 promised virgins are really 72000 demons who take the concept of sadomasochism to new and previously unexplored heights.
Now that just might work...
I've sometimes wondered if they could be made to see their victims as *people*, if that would make any difference. Kind of like the Mothers of the Disappeared in S. America, faithfully and publicly display pictures of their loved ones every day. I don't know that it would do any good--and, of course, we'd have to actually *find* the terrorists. Or put the victims' images and stories in the worldwide media.
Not saying it would work, but there might be some of them who are still capable of seeing, if brought face-to-face with the truth.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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doug
Apprentice
# 474
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Posted
thethinker, you said
quote:
As for linking this to Iraq, am i the only one who remembers a certain mr hussain celebrating the attacks on the twin towers?
so he was *obviously* responsible
i think its generally accepted that saddam was not directly involved in the wtc attacks. baghdad would probably be a lot flatter right now if there was a proven link.
d.
Posts: 28 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jun 2001
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
The way of peace has been tried numerous times, over thousands of years. The party that perceives itself as weaker often tries to placate, and the more powerful party will sometimes try to come to some accommodation when it believes that fighting loses more than it gains. That is throughout human history, whether they knew God or not.
I respect pacifism as a holy choice (though I disagree that it is mandated), but there is simply no evidence it is a good strategic choice. That theory is not Christian, but modern.
The way of peace has been tried repeatedly in the MiddleEast over the last few decades. We have been trying the way of peace with Iraq specifically for the last ten years. To think that it is not a real peace is akin to saying "You went to Madrid? Oh but you haven't been to Spain! "
Just because people tell you these things Nosmo, it doesn't mean they're true. On to others...
Qlib,
Why is any military action considered "descending to their level?"
Those people who would "erode civil liberties" because of their virulent anti-communism: I agree we keep hold of our liberties as best we can even under duress. But the hue and cry for more crackdown was driven by the fact that Communists killed 200,000,000 people* in the 20thC, but folks kept making excuses for it. We now know that the right-wing crazies underestimated the spy penetration of the US.
Honestly, what do they teach them at these schools?
* Don't believe it? Start with 11,000,000 starved Ukrainians in the 1930's, add in 8,000,000 Russian Jews, 8,000,000 Chinese Christians...and we haven't even gotten to the wars yet.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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zephirine of the roses
Soul of the rose
# 3323
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Posted
i have a 17 year old son ....... ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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We are, each of us, angels with only one wing. And we can only fly embracing each other."
*~ Luciano De Crescenzo
Posts: 1756 | From: middle of an apple orchard in ny | Registered: Sep 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
So do I, Zeph, so do I.
So much for statistics....
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And I have a good friend in the military.
Personally, I think the powers that be who want a war should be the ones to fight it.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Nosmo, I have no idea what universe you inhabit, or how you managed to open a communications link from there to here.
Maybe the incarnation has something to do with it.
FCB
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Matrix
Shipmate
# 3452
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Posted
I'm writing form a British perspective here. I grew up on military bases, my family have strong military connections.
We grew up having our vehicles and possessions checked just to get home from school.
Our friends would be freaked out visiting our house as they were greeted on arrival at the camp by men with big guns.
My brother spent time in service in Northern Ireland.
My point - when we try to defeat terrorism by violence we merely escalate events, and fear reigns. The peace (as fragile and patchy as it is) that Ireland, and the UK have experienced recently has been due to government and paramilitary efforts to communicate and negotiate.
Terror must be dealt with by removing the breeding ground of poverty and oppression it comes from. Otherwise each terrorist who gets killed will be replaced by another angry young person.
And some posters need to be very careful about singling out those who they assume finance the terror networks. The main source of funds for the IRA was America. Imagine if the UK had taken a similar line then..
With regards and prayers that sanity might prevail.
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Maybe that's all a family really is; a group of people who miss the same imaginary place. - Garden State
Posts: 3847 | From: The courts of the King | Registered: Oct 2002
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Quantum
Shipmate
# 1129
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
Personally, I think the powers that be who want a war should be the ones to fight it.
That's a thought, but I think I'll stick with:
"Wars will cease when men refuse to fight".
Posts: 146 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Black Dog
Shipmate
# 2344
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by doug:
thethinker, you said
quote:
As for linking this to Iraq, am i the only one who remembers a certain mr hussain celebrating the attacks on the twin towers?
so he was *obviously* responsible
i think its generally accepted that saddam was not directly involved in the wtc attacks. baghdad would probably be a lot flatter right now if there was a proven link.
d.
I wasnt making the point that he was responsible i was just nothing that he is the same sort of scumbag that bin laden and his cronies are. No wait im wrong, saddam does it for his own personal gain, religion dosnt come into it, for bin laden that is everything that it is supposed to be about.
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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.
Posts: 453 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Gambit
London Shipmeet King
# 766
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MatrixUK:
And some posters need to be very careful about singling out those who they assume finance the terror networks. The main source of funds for the IRA was America. Imagine if the UK had taken a similar line then..
Just as a word of advice, I would be extremely careful where yu go with this. This is not another anti-America thread, and generalisations like this are not helpful.
I would suggest 'The main source of funds for the IRA was certain elements in America'.
Gambit
Just trying to keep the 'peace'.
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There is a little bit of my mitral regurgitation that is forever yours.
Wiblog: Now being updated less than regularly (again).
Posts: 1105 | From: the best bar in Heaven | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gambit
London Shipmeet King
# 766
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Posted
(Sorry, that should be 'where you go with this', and 'were certain elements in America')
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There is a little bit of my mitral regurgitation that is forever yours.
Wiblog: Now being updated less than regularly (again).
Posts: 1105 | From: the best bar in Heaven | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by logician:
The way of peace has been tried numerous times, over thousands of years. The party that perceives itself as weaker often tries to placate, and the more powerful party will sometimes try to come to some accommodation when it believes that fighting loses more than it gains. That is throughout human history, whether they knew God or not.
I respect pacifism as a holy choice (though I disagree that it is mandated), but there is simply no evidence it is a good strategic choice. That theory is not Christian, but modern.
The way of peace has been tried repeatedly in the MiddleEast over the last few decades. We have been trying the way of peace with Iraq specifically for the last ten years. To think that it is not a real peace is akin to saying "You went to Madrid? Oh but you haven't been to Spain! "
Just because people tell you these things Nosmo, it doesn't mean they're true. On to others...
I'm sorry Logistician, I must seriously be on a different planet. My understanding was that Iraq lost the first gulf war and was made to pay punative damages by being placed under embargos, leading to the lack of food, water, medicine etc. At no point have we tried to turn the people against their leaders by giving them the things they need, ie food, water, shelter and medicine. Bombing a broken people into submission is not a way of peace by anyones diagnosis.
The truth is hard. The truth is that we are partly responsible. Ok I didn't condone idiots flying into towerblocks. But I am addicted to certain raw materials that makes friends out of some despots (eg Saudi Arabia) and enemies out of others. I do want to be wealthy and therefore I have kept people in poverty. I am two faced. When has there ever been discussion about the corrupt regime in Sudan that is conducting an equally bloody massacre on its own people? I have in the past allowed conditions to occur that have been breeding grounds for the kind of nutters we now see. As I wanted to be rich, I didn't really give a monkeys. Now the ill wind is catching us up. And when things are left to linger, it is much much trickier to know what to do about them.
I don't know much, but I know this. You don't make things better by bombing the holy gimminies out of an already bedraggled people.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
You're right, Nosmo, you ARE on a different planet, because on this one Iraq has been allowed to sell its oil in exchange for food and medicine all along. The fact that Saddam Hussein has chosen to keep his people starving and sick is not the fault of greedy western capitalists, and I'm sick of hearing fuzzy headed liberals say that it is.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Black Dog
Shipmate
# 2344
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Posted
Erin's right, look i'm one of the biggest anti capitalist people you will find, and i've given america some well deserved stick in the past. However i'm not about to be like most anti capitalists and rave on and on about american imperialism shout and beat my fist with no clear argument and no clear agenda to speak of other than looking and sounding like a complete dullard.
Is it not clear that we are in serious trouble here? From bin laden, hussain whoever you want to blame, THIS IS SERIOUS! You cannot mince about the place we need swift and harsh movements to deal with these people.
And btw, before Blair even said it i was saying you watch out this christmas some nutter will do something insane. It only takes one bomb...
As for the IRA that line of argument is a load of crap, it wasnt america that were funding them, it was certain americans who had no idea what was going on in ireland.
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The difference between love and comfort is that comfort is more reliable and true. Brutal and mocking but always there it is a crutch for enmity's saddest glare.
Posts: 453 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MatrixUK:
Terror must be dealt with by removing the breeding ground of poverty and oppression it comes from. Otherwise each terrorist who gets killed will be replaced by another angry young person.
Terrorism is not the result of poverty. If it were, the majority of terrorists would come from poor families. In fact, virtually all of them, including bin Laden, come from very prosperous families.
All of the 9/11 highjackers came from wealthy families.
In the US in the 1960s and 70s there was a revolutionary group called The Weather Underground, who planted bombs and held up banks. Every member of that group came from a family that was in the top 5% income bracket.
It seems that some young people from wealthy families think they have the right to rearrange the world to suit their specifications. They also think they have a right to kill or injure other people in order to carry out their plan.
All the victims of The Weather Underground were in much lower income bracket than the Weathermen.
It gives you a new perspective on class warfare.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I was thinking about this on my way into work, and I think that people have seriously got the wrong idea. (Also, to get back to the subject of terrorists and al Qaeda, since we already have enough threads on Iraq.)
quote:
Nosmo wrote:
Perhaps you would like to show me the occasion that we tried the way of peace and humility with these tyrrants. Show me where we tried to feed them, clothe them, heal them.
See, this is just wrong, man. Not the sentiment -- I think that's admirable -- but the reasoning behind it. The people involved in the terrorist attacks COULD NOT CARE LESS about our "humility". They couldn't care less about any suffering, real or perceived, of others in the Middle East. We could prostrate ourselves and do the whole sackcloth and ashes thing from now til the Judgment Day, and you know what? It wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. Al Qaeda is not interested in anything other than a complete takeover of the Middle East, at best (and the world at worst).
You see, right now, this isn't about the injustices of the west. This is about the freedoms of the west, and how dangerous they are to the way of life the terrorists. They see our society -- freedom of speech and religion, democracy, women's rights, etc. -- as the epitome of all that is evil. We cannot satisfy these terrorists with anything other than complete withdrawal from the Middle East and an abandonment of our society. Nosmo, do you really think that ANY degree of humility on our part would stop the oprression of women? Do you really think that any peace we offered would have allowed their citizens freedom of religion? Do you really think that we could have done ANYTHING that would have prompted them to say "oh my God, you know, we were wrong with all of this Sharia law"?
And Matrix, if you want to round up the pro-IRA citizens of New York, Boston and Chicago, feel free. I think it's disgusting.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I'm sorry. I must be wrong. Please, go ahead and do what you must.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
And Matrix, if you want to round up the pro-IRA citizens of New York, Boston and Chicago, feel free. I think it's disgusting.
YES!
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
Okay, I jumped ugly on you Nosmo, and I shouldn't have, you being new to the Ship and all.
I should have been nice to you to set you up, then really slammed you... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Bully for you for coming back. You may detect a certain...impatience from some other posters here. This stems from the fact that your arguments are not new to us. It is not that we have not heard them, not that we haven't ever really, really thought about it that way. We have considered and rejected the premise that pacifism is enjoined by the teachings of Jesus. I can certainly see why someone else might draw that conclusion, but I think it is an oversimplified understanding of the NT.
You may also think that you have heard all our arguments before, and perhaps you have. But I suspect not. And in any case, if you come up with something either new or repackaged in a way we have not thought of before, we will either have to come up with something new in answer, or concede.
We are no longer at war with Germany and Japan and there is no seething underclass of terrorists in those countries. It is usually not war, but unfinished war, which breeds further violence. Which is not an argument for annihilation of one's enemies, by the way, because diplomacy, sanction, and limited warfare have also been known to be effective at times. As to why Iraq, and not Saudi or Sudan, those latter two nations are perhaps more evil, but are not a direct threat at the moment.
I would be of the emotion that is overwilling to intervene in evil governments, regardless of their present danger. But I have every reason to expect that to get away from us rapidly, as it would any nation.
I have four sons, by the way, 15-23. I don't say these things lightly.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Matrix
Shipmate
# 3452
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Posted
Gambit - I choose my words as carefully as possible, and am in no way interested in escalating or creating an anti-american argument here.
I was simply pointing out the fact that the IRA's greatest source of funding was (and still is by all accounts) the USA, now of course that is only certain individuals, not the whole US. But take a look at when the USA actually outlawed fundraising by the IRA - in the last few years!
There really is something about people in glass houses here....
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Maybe that's all a family really is; a group of people who miss the same imaginary place. - Garden State
Posts: 3847 | From: The courts of the King | Registered: Oct 2002
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
MatrixUK,
Most Americans do not support the IRA. The only ones in glass houses are those who do support the IRA and then babble on about the evils of terrorism. As a British person, I can denounce fascism without feeling hypocritical just because a minority of morons in Britain are pro-BNP.
Your argument assumes a uniformity of belief and action amongst Americans for which there is absolutely no evidence.
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
quote:
This is not another anti-America thread,
Quite right.
The threat here is to the whole of Western culture and society. OK, The USA is identified by some as "the great Satan", and if Satan means "opposition", from their point of view, it is opposed to them. But they see the whole system of tolerance (and lets face it the right to enjoy life just a little bit) as evil so consider it appropriate to attack dance clubs in Bali, killing Indonesians, Australians and others.
Personally I have a hunch that the U.K. has been high on the list ever since before 9/11, and our backing of the war on terrorism hasn't brought this about. We are a tolerant western democracy, which has welcomed Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and people of many other religions, races and none to our shores, especially in the last 50 years. We have the vote, the right to criticise our government and religious leaders, we have liberated people, not imprisoned them. Oh, and we enjoy ourselves!
Ssometimes we have made mistakes, but like the States, Australia, France and the rest of the west, we are FREE. And that is what they don't like.
Never miss the point: we are all potential targets, we all will be for a very long time. Don't be surprised.
But don't let it ruin your life, because that means they win.
And never believe there ever was, or ever will be, total security. That myth was blown sky high, for those who hadn't learned it before, on 9/11.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I think MatrixUK is making a very legitimate point. Individual Americans have undeniably supported terrorism in other countries. On top of that, a point he doesn't raise, the US government has supported all sorts of hideous regimes. Frankly, I find US foreign policy appallingly hypocritical.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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