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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Okay, that's it.
hatless

Shipmate
# 3365

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Erin
I appreciate this longer and more explanatory post. But I still don't really get it.

You say you need to vent your anger, you don't need to have people telling you off for it.

I think people, including me, are really just disagreeing with you, and you interpret that as high-handed. You end up pretty much doing what you accuse others of - telling people to stop saying what they're saying. You seldom disagree with the content of posts, you just tell us to go away or shut up, or take the discussion to another board.

You seem to want to express your anger and have others around you affirm the validity of your feelings. But if we feel differently, if we lack the imagination to feel anger, or if we are so frightened of anger we bury it (loads of Christians do this); if we not only feel differently but fear the damage unfocused anger can do, what other response have we than to disagree?

Not understanding terrorists and wanting to express incomprehension and rage and call them sickos and dogs and the rest is fine for the first post, is fine for September 12 to 30, but by page four and 14 months on it is a sign of disturbing immaturity. We must try to understand, and find ways to build peace. Not just now, always and everywhere.

If you think that's pompous and pious and bible-bashing, well I say that's just a little girl under a blanket clutching a bag of marshmallows talking.

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My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Oh, and tomb, I really wish that you'd stick to the facts of the argument here on this planet, instead of inventing some alternative universe. Al Qaeda's leaders have not in any way been exploited by the evil capitalist regime, seeing as how they have more money than God.

I'm losing the will to live again. Bin Laden in particular was/is a very wealthy son of a very privileged family.

Erin, I think you should just stop. What's the point? The European liberal mainstream view (and I have to say that I feel like a rape victim being criticised about her skirt length whenever I run up against it) is that the United States deserves this hatred, and all the connected terrorist activities, that the Palestinians are all nice and cuddly, that the Israelis are bad, and that the terrorists are just misunderstood victims of global capitalism (by which they mean "the United States"), and that the United States probably wasn't even justified in going after Bin Laden. I'm guessing that this view isn't going to change until they finally realize that the United States may be a sizeable target, but they are "the West", too, that the extremist Muslims abbhor. It's not going to stop with us. What part of "they want you all dead and an Islamic theocracy worldwide" don't they get?

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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Oh, and I agree with hatless that we must try to understand it. But I disagree that understanding leads necessarily to peace. I think of Douglas Adams' story of the Babel fish and all the destruction wrought by same....

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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hatless, what thread are you reading? I'm not talking about September 11, 2001, I'm talking about RIGHT FUCKING NOW. Jesus, there are links to two different news reports in this thread that say that we're about to get it up the ass again. One of the threats is to hospitals. I WORK IN A HOSPITAL. In fact, I work in a hospital that is owned and operated by the most prestigious medical foundation in the world.

As long as we're still getting threats like this, it's not over. And to still be scared shitless is not a sign of immaturity, it's a sign of engagement with the world. Maybe you should stop trying to tell everyone how they should react with a gun pointed at their head. People might then be inclined to give a flying turtle fuck about what you have to say.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bonzo
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# 2481

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quote:

People might then be inclined to give a flying turtle fuck about what you have to say.

Those of us who agree with Hatless are evidently not people.

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Love wastefully

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Karin 3
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# 3474

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Erin I guess it's hard for many of us in England to understand how hurt and angry some of you Americans are by what happened on September 11th 2001. Perhaps that goes a long way to explain the readiness of many Americans to wage war on Afghanistan and now Iraq, a country that was not involved in the atrocities of September 11th.

However, surely this is exactly how many people in less developed countries feel about America and her allies. America, and before that the British Empire, as well as the French, Spanish etc raped and pillaged their land and their peoople and many of the multi-national companies continue to exploit the people and wreck local economies. Careless practices cause the deaths of many workers, including children. Our crimes may not have been so deliberate, they are perhaps sins of ommission rather than commission, but the suffering that results is the same and perhaps worse as local people and their economies do not have a chance to recover, as we in the West do.

I am not surprised that people living in these conditions hate us in the West. I don't consider tham to be "sick" at all. They are desperate people who want to protect their loved ones and, yes, they may want revenge, too, but that is OK for Americans, so why not for them?

Some Muslim leaders may take advantage of these feelings for their own ill-concieved ends, but without the damage we in the West have inflicted the ground roots support would not be there.

I do not condone the violent acts of September 11th, nor any other terrorist acts, but neither do I condone the terrorism Bush seems intent on, were it not for the restraining hand of other world leaders.

It is good that the Taliban have been removed from power in Afghanistan, but could it have been done with less loss of civilian life? Some think so. I am not qualified to say. It seems to be that America and other Western powers are far more intent on playing games of power than on offering real aid to heal the massive damage inflicted on the country's infra-structure and feed and give shelter to the vast number of homeless people still in that country.

As for Iraq, we must be vigilant, yes, but surely it is wrong to merely set out to humiliate Sadam, just because he doesn't want to tow the US party line. Why ever should he?

Of course you are entitled to grieve, but as Christians shouldn't we be standing in the breach as peacemakers, seeking alternatives to war whenever possible (and I'm not so naive as to not know that it isn't always possible) and ways of bringing about reconciliation, healing and understanding for all parties concerned?

My view is by no means unique this side of "the pond". Many Britiish people are suspicious of American propaganda, however friendly Blair may be with Bush. You may not like what I say, but this is how many British people think.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Erin I guess it's hard for many of us in England to understand how hurt and angry some of you Americans are by what happened on September 11th 2001.

ARGH!!!! For Christ's sake, this isn't about September 11. This is about WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY. Jesus, don't you people watch the news?

[brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]

[ 15. November 2002, 15:15: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
marmot

Mountain mammal
# 479

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quote:
My view is by no means unique this side of "the pond". Many Britiish people are suspicious of American propaganda, however friendly Blair may be with Bush. You may not like what I say, but this is how many British people think.

Laura, when you call Jack Kevorkian, please give him my number, too.

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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"

Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Erin I guess it's hard for many of us in England to understand how hurt and angry some of you Americans are by what happened on September 11th 2001.

ARGH!!!! For Christ's sake, this isn't about September 11. This is about WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY. Jesus, don't you people watch the news?

[brick wall] X 8

Good point Erin. Some people can not react to a potential event, but feel the need to anchor their thoughts with a potential with a past actual event.

Tangent/
It would help if people could, like the public had to do during WW2, look around and ask themselves, in their city/town/area, "Where would a terrorist attack?" Not that we should be setting up "Home Guard" units etc. but...if you start thinking about targets being around you, you think a little more about your own values. I am currently looking out my work windows and see a MAJOR hydro line. Makes me think a bit...

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
My view is by no means unique this side of "the pond". Many Britiish people are suspicious of American propaganda, however friendly Blair may be with Bush. You may not like what I say, but this is how many British people think.

Which just goes to show that many of my fellow inhabitants of this Blessed Plot are stupid, guilt-racked, insular cowards who, under the pretence of caring for the worlds peace, care only about their own.

Who cares that Saddam Hussain has systematically oppressed and starved and killed and poisoned his own people? Who cares that he gives succour, support and financial aid to terrorists who see no difference between a middle-aged liberal hand-wringer from Greenwich and shitty-shoed redneck from Mississippi? Who cares that he has been shown to have spent the proceeds of oil that he has been allowed to sell for medicines on his own palaces and weapons programmes?

We should care and we should ensure that we kick him out just as we ought to do in Zimbabwe as well. Evil is evil whether it is in Iraq, Sierra Leone or Zimbabwe and where we are able to do something about it (like we could in Afghanistan) then we should.

As for thinking that somehow the Taleban might have left power in Afghanistan without force.... Words fail me.

Cosmo

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Karin3

There appears to be a degree of confusion here about the nature of terrorist movements.

The most worrying terrorist movements are the ones which harness legitimate grievances to what can only be described as 'death worshipping nihilists'.

Now I think that a reasonable case can be made, to the effect that US/ Western foreign policy towards you-know-where is not all that it could be. (One could say more, but discussion of this particular tangent has been referred to Dead Horses). But this case is entirely separable from an analysis of the morals, policy and nature of Al Quaeda, Saddam Hussein, or the Palestinian terrorists whose main contribution to the Middle East Peace Process appears to be the indiscriminate massacre of women and children. This is Islamo-Arab nationalism, expressing itself as nihilism and is about as defensible as it's European and East Asian variants. (See under Stalinism, National Socialism, WWII Japan, Maoism etc.)

There is, of course, an honourable tradition of Christian pacifism which has been ably and admirably represented on this thread by FCB and Tomb and I wish very much that I could subscribe to it. However I think that it is not illegitimate to suggest that in a fallen world, recourse to force is sometimes necessary, if not desirable. The forces ranged against the West represent a clear and present danger and, if one accepts that it is the proper role of government to protect the persons of its citizens, for Western governments to take effective action, including the use of force does really come under the heading of legitimate use of force.

I think that there is a legitimate debate as to what constitutes effective action and that there were differences between the views of the US and European administrations over this issue based on historical experience and geography. But a glib equivalence between the shortcomings of US foreign policy and the murderous intent of Messrs Bin Laden and Hussein et. al. is, to put it mildly, missing the point.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Those of you who know where I live may not be aware that we're a relatively major port in the southeastern US. I have one naval air station, another naval station, and a nuclear submarine base within 50 miles, and again, I work for a name that is quite well-known throughout the world. Considering that our city is not quite as well-known (and therefore well-protected) as the top tier cities such as New York, Boston, etc., as well as the fact that there is a freakin' al Qaeda cell here, I'm not feeling real comfortable at the moment.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Preview post is my friend.

My apologies to Karin3 for deciding not to use one of her comments as a peg to hang my thoughts from, whilst leaving her name at the top of my post. Mea Culpa. [Embarrassed]

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Presleyterian
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# 1915

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Given my admiration for Dr. King, I'd love to think that his witness of non-violence was solely responsible for the success of the civil rights movement in the United States.

But let's face it. Passive resistance alone didn't desegregate the Montgomery Greyhound Bus Station and the University of Mississippi and Little Rock Central High School and the Heart of Dixie Motel and Lester Maddox's Pickrick Restaurant. What did it was passive resistance coupled with a federalized state militia consisting of big honkin' soldiers carrying big honkin' guns riding big honkin' tanks. George Wallace wasn't moved an inch passive resistance, but he sure understood the National Guard surrounding him on the steps of the University of Alabama.

As a pre-conversion Charles Colson once said, "When you've got 'em by the ****s, their hearts and minds will soon follow." I'm not suggesting that as a central tenet of foreign policy toward Iraq and international terrorism, but there's some truth there nonetheless.

That's why I'm more willing to listen with an open mind to pacifists who say that it's a scriptural mandate, as opposed to pacifists who claim that "it works."

Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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tomb, violence is an appropriate response to violence (i.e., physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing). Violence is not an appropriate response to name-calling, stealing, lying or any other sort of poor behavior. Aggressive (as opposed to defensive) violence is never permissible. Many of us teach these principles to our children; they are inherent in our legal codes. I’m sure you grasp the fact that the terrorists are engaged in aggressive violence against defenseless noncombatants in response to nonviolent provocations. Yes, I understand that they have been provoked, but that does not justify their tactic.

You are correct that westerners seek their own comfort. So do easterners, northerners and southerners. As anyone who passed Psychology 101 knows, human beings avoid pain. However, it requires an incredibly cynical leap of logic to convert comfort-seeking into willful oppression. Of course abuses happen, but more often than not they are an unintended consequence of an attempt to help someone else. But with regard to US foreign policy, if you are suggesting that we should retreat into isolationism again, you have nearly convinced me.

I’m sure you are not suggesting that nonviolence offers an effective means to world harmony. To do so you would have to stick your head into the sand so far that only your Birkenstocks would show. Nonviolence in the face of a violent aggressor who seeks your complete destruction invites uninhibited slaughter or abject slavery. I suppose after the slaughter there would be harmony, but maybe not of the sort for which you are hoping.

Your commitment to nonviolent resistance is admirable. In fact, I cede you the moral high ground. I certainly hope you are made of stern enough stuff to stick by it in the face of the horrors to which your position will lead, if attempted. As I said before, I choose the high ground I can hold rather than the higher ground from which I would surely fall. I’m not sure why that irritates you so much. Perhaps there is a prescription available which might help you?

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
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# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Erin I guess it's hard for many of us in England to understand how hurt and angry some of you Americans are by what happened on September 11th 2001.

ARGH!!!! For Christ's sake, this isn't about September 11. This is about WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY. Jesus, don't you people watch the news?

[brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]

I keep a weather-eye open for what is happening in the news, but I don't dwell on it, as I have observed that people who consume too much "news" become paranoid. A lot of "news" is propaganda and speculation as it is.

However, I don't mean any offence to you there Erin, as believing there is a real threat to the place you work in must be quite difficult to live with. I don't know enough about the details of that threat to know whether your fears are grounded. I have no reason to believe my place of work or neighbourhood are under any real threat of attack, so it would be wrong of me to comment on your situation. However, I think we have to be careful not let these people "get to us" and make us afraid unnecessarily, or they are already winning.

With respect, I think you had referred to grief in the wake of Sept 11th.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
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# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
quote:
My view is by no means unique this side of "the pond". Many Britiish people are suspicious of American propaganda, however friendly Blair may be with Bush. You may not like what I say, but this is how many British people think.

Laura, when you call Jack Kevorkian, please give him my number, too.
Totally lost on me, I'm afraid.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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Concerning comments that this thread is not all (or even?) about September 11. I'm sure fellow Brits need no reminding of the press release that was accidentally handed out by the Government, to journos, a few days ago, detailing the real possibility of terrorist threat to mainland UK.

However, apparently it wasn't the right version of the information the Government wanted to give to the press; it detailed very specifically that the threat could include a 'dirty' bomb (standard explosive 'laced' with nuclear material, but no fission reaction); and some other activity that involved wide-scale use of poisonous gas. The Government thought this might be a little alarmist, prepared two versions of the info, and accidentally distributed the wrong version. As soon as they realized what had happened, they circulated the other, saying it wasn't as bad as it looked.

Even if it was just a ham-fisted attempt of the Government's media department to offer justification for the extent of their own concern about Bin Laden-style tendancies, and the recent warnings that have been rumoured about, I would say there is potential that this is a 'show' that's going to run and run, both sides of the Atlantic. And regardless of one's stance on the matter, it is an international concern, in which the major nations are inextricably involved.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I have no reason to believe my place of work or neighbourhood are under any real threat of attack...

Neither had the people in New York. Or the people in the planes. Or the people in Bali. That's how terrorism works.

quote:
However, I think we have to be careful not let these people "get to us" and make us afraid unnecessarily, or they are already winning.
I agree with you on this point, but I would caution that there is a significant difference between 'not living in fear' and 'acting as if there is no threat'.

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by OgtheDim:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Erin I guess it's hard for many of us in England to understand how hurt and angry some of you Americans are by what happened on September 11th 2001.

ARGH!!!! For Christ's sake, this isn't about September 11. This is about WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY. Jesus, don't you people watch the news?

[brick wall] X 8

Good point Erin. Some people can not react to a potential event, but feel the need to anchor their thoughts with a potential with a past actual event.

Tangent/
It would help if people could, like the public had to do during WW2, look around and ask themselves, in their city/town/area, "Where would a terrorist attack?" Not that we should be setting up "Home Guard" units etc. but...if you start thinking about targets being around you, you think a little more about your own values. I am currently looking out my work windows and see a MAJOR hydro line. Makes me think a bit...

I am quite capable of reacting to a potential event, but misunderstood Erin's reference to her feelings as being about Sept 11th. I am not as convinced as she is about the reality of a potential threat and I am really not about to start looking for a "Red under my bed", which is basically what you are suggesting. I think we are less alarmist over here! We also prefer to consider people innocent until proven guilty, rather than the other way around. What good is a posthumous pardon to anyone? In case you don't get it, that was a reference to Bush's attitude to Sadam and Iraq.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915

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So I guess we're back to the $64,000 question: May one use force to avert what one perceives to be a bigger, nastier, more destructive, evil-er force? 5000 words, double-spaced, full bibliography by next Friday, please. And keep you eyes on your own paper.

One more point: Before anyone dismisses FCB's position, click on his website. He's got some serious street cred on this issue. And heck, I'm even learning a thing or two from tomb, although appropriate office attire for grown-ups isn't one of them.

Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
I am not as convinced as she is about the reality of a potential threat...
Because, you know, a potential threat should only be taken seriously when it actually comes to pass. I mean, it's not like someone telling you they're going to kill you, and doing the same things they did right before they tried to kill you the last time, is reason to believe that hey! they might try to kill you.

[Roll Eyes]

[ 15. November 2002, 16:47: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
My view is by no means unique this side of "the pond". Many Britiish people are suspicious of American propaganda, however friendly Blair may be with Bush. You may not like what I say, but this is how many British people think.

Which just goes to show that many of my fellow inhabitants of this Blessed Plot are stupid, guilt-racked, insular cowards who, under the pretence of caring for the worlds peace, care only about their own.

Who cares that Saddam Hussain has systematically oppressed and starved and killed and poisoned his own people? Who cares that he gives succour, support and financial aid to terrorists who see no difference between a middle-aged liberal hand-wringer from Greenwich and shitty-shoed redneck from Mississippi? Who cares that he has been shown to have spent the proceeds of oil that he has been allowed to sell for medicines on his own palaces and weapons programmes?

We should care and we should ensure that we kick him out just as we ought to do in Zimbabwe as well. Evil is evil whether it is in Iraq, Sierra Leone or Zimbabwe and where we are able to do something about it (like we could in Afghanistan) then we should.

As for thinking that somehow the Taleban might have left power in Afghanistan without force.... Words fail me.

Cosmo

Cosmo, I take serious issue with you that I am
quote:
a stupid, guilt-racked, insular coward who, under the pretence of caring for the worlds peace, care only about their own.
I think that is extremely presumptious of you.

I was freinds with an Iraqi woman and care that her family suffers along with many other good Iraqi people, but we in the West must take some blame for that suffering because of the sanctions we imposed which prevented them receiving the medecines they needed. (This was the case before the war over Kuwait).

I am glad to see you acknowledge there are other problem regimes, but I think there are far more than you mention. Should we bomb half the world because they have regimes who oppress their people?

I actually think that Bush's aggressive attitude is as big a threat to world peace as any.

--------------------
Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Presleyterian
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# 1915

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Karin 3 wrote:
quote:
I am not as convinced as she is about the reality of a potential threat and I am really not about to start looking for a "Red under my bed", which is basically what you are suggesting. I think we are less alarmist over here! We also prefer to consider people innocent until proven guilty, rather than the other way around. What good is a posthumous pardon to anyone? In case you don't get it, that was a reference to Bush's attitude to Sadam and Iraq
1. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a jurisprudential concept, not a tenet of wide practical application. So I guess you'd let your child play with a snake because that particular creature had yet to be adjudicated poisonous? You'd hire an accused child molester as a babysitter because he hasn't yet been convicted?

2. "Less alarmist"? Sweetie, I was two miles away from the Pentagon when it was attacked. The post office around the corner from my office was the site of the anthrax deaths. Damn skippy I'm an alarmist.

3. Using the words "Sadam" [sic] and "innocent" within three sentences of each other is beyond laughable.

I've been vocal on the board about my current opposition to a US incursion into Iraq, but posts like Karin 3's are beginning to change my mind for me.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Karin, as has been pointed out numerous times, Iraq always has been allowed to sell its oil in exchange for food and medicine. The fact that those medicines did not go to the people who need them has precisely fuck-all to do with anything that the US or the UK did and EVERYTHING to do with the genocidal tyrant you're so enamored of.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Oh yeah -- this is the time when all the candy-assed terrorist appeasers should start sending you private messages about how you're wasting your breath, Karin. Pay attention to them. You are.

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Karin 3
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# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Oh yeah -- this is the time when all the candy-assed terrorist appeasers should start sending you private messages about how you're wasting your breath, Karin. Pay attention to them. You are.

That is so sad. What hope is there for world peace if you are representative of American Christians?

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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Hey..Karin....pardon me if a tape mentioning various countries by name gives me pause for thought NOW. And, I, for one, look at potential targets around me in order to ......surprise....redouble my social justice stances and efforts.

[Roll Eyes]

Geez...just because I agree with Erin on something does not make me agree with Erin on everything.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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About as much hope as there is if you are representative of British intelligence.

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Ultraspike

Incensemeister
# 268

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I'm actually more worried about Texas getting hit now than New York. Houston's hospitals (where my niece works) have been named as a target and there's also lots of explosive things like oil refineries there, not to mention Pere Bush. Wouldn't that be a great target for Saddam and bin Laden? I pray to God for all of us, however, because it could happen anywhere. And that's exactly where the terrorists want us: living in a state of fear, never quite feeling safe anywhere. I'm not an alarmist and don't think twice about walking through Grand Central twice a day on my commute, but right now it's like waiting for the ax to fall. And for further amusement, check out today's Post for a not-so-far-fetched link between Saddam and bin Laden.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Oops, sorry, Og, didn't see you standing there. That was directed to Karin.

Believe me, Og and I have done the knock down drag out thing before. If he (I presume you're a he) agrees with me on anything, it's that we all need oxygen to survive. I don't see much else we have in common.

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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Erin, take a puff on the peace pipe and tell me, how does your Christian faith inform your reaction to the "terrorist threat"? I really would like to know, because I am puzzled by professing Christians holding a view such as yours. I know you are not unique, and I'm not suggesting all Christians must be 100% pacisifist, but I find it really hard to understand where you are coming from as a Christian.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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What part of "they're trying to kill us and they should be stopped" is so difficult to understand?

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Anyone who doesn't understand why Americans are worried should read Presleyterian's post of 15 November 16:54.

Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest.

Moo

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Presleyterian
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# 1915

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Karin: Erin is -- as you so charmingly spelled is -- a "pacisifist." With the emphasis on the "fist."

You're certainly free to disagree, but any number of Church fathers and Christian scholars have posited that self-defense is fully scriptural, as is forceful action to subvert the hostile intentions of an aggressor.

So yes, if I'm being attacked by an aggressor who has vowed to kill me, I'll fight back to prevent him from carrying out his threat. Or if I see a thug on the street beating up another person, I'd like to think that yes, I will enter the fray in defense of the weaker person.

And if that makes me a lousy Christian in your eyes, Karin, then I'll bear your opprobrium with pride.

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Presleyterian
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# 1915

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And, of course, I meant that "is" as an "it." Always a great move in a sentence about spelling. At least I didn't give Laura a coronary by using its'.
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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Erin, take a puff on the peace pipe and tell me, how does your Christian faith inform your reaction to the "terrorist threat"? <snip!>

Telling Erin to go smoke crack-pipe is not going to help any of us! [Eek!]

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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I must say I have wandered around the Internet and read a board that is primarily comprised of sane people, and they've given me a much-needed laugh on this subject. Now I have this image of Bobby Trendy going on and on about the FABULOUS and LUXURIOUS attack planned.

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Presleyterian
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# 1915

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[tangent]

Not to mention a few of Bobby "The Lipgloss King" Trendy's other catch phrases: Eeeeeeelegant, Exquiiiiisite, and Laaahhhhvissshhhh.

I assume tomb's hired Bobby Trendy and Doug "Pretty Boy" Wilson of "Trading Spaces" to redo his Fortress of Solitude in pink satin and faux leopard fur.

[/tangent]

Now back to our tres opuuuuullllehhhnt discussion of geopolitical security.

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
And, of course, I meant that "is" as an "it." Always a great move in a sentence about spelling. At least I didn't give Laura a coronary by using its'.

That's okay. I'm too worried about the latest FBI report that a spectacular attack can shortly be expected to get very worked up about grammar (though it is a lovely distraction). Wanna know where I work? Right on Capitol Hill! That's right, boys and girls! As a friend just wrote me in an e-mail, I don't think I could be more "alert" if I were on dexedrine.

p.s. to Marmot... Will do!

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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I think we need to replace that pansy-ass threat level system with one that'll really mean something.

Threat level:

Interesting: Your dog has developed an unnatural interest in your crotch.
Fabulous: PETA compares pig farmers to serial killers.
Spectacular: Charles in Charge is running on Nick at Nite.
Amazing: The terrorists are coming over the seventh hill.
Smashing: Grab your ankles.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Here we see the root of many problems.

I [my group, religion, family, colour] represent truth.

This other group is evil. They deserve to die.

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Karin: Erin is -- as you so charmingly spelled is -- a "pacisifist." With the emphasis on the "fist."

You're certainly free to disagree, but any number of Church fathers and Christian scholars have posited that self-defense is fully scriptural, as is forceful action to subvert the hostile intentions of an aggressor.

So yes, if I'm being attacked by an aggressor who has vowed to kill me, I'll fight back to prevent him from carrying out his threat. Or if I see a thug on the street beating up another person, I'd like to think that yes, I will enter the fray in defense of the weaker person.

And if that makes me a lousy Christian in your eyes, Karin, then I'll bear your opprobrium with pride.

Maybe being a Christian should mean diferent things to different people, I don't know. I certainly don't think I can decide that someone is a "lousy Christian" or not. I think we are each to follow Christ as he speaks to us and some people certainly hear him saying different things from what I hear him say to me.

I'm sure scholars and theolgians can be prone to making scripture say whatever they want it to say, so while I'm not arguing that they are wrong, I don't think that supports the argument for self-defence particularly. After all I'm sure others make a great thing of turning the other cheek, which, I understand may not necessarily advocate non-retaliation.

I agree your scenario is not straight forward, Presleytarian. If attacked I'm sure my natural instinct would be to defend myself, but I'm not sure that is what Jesus would want, especially if in defending myself I had to kill another. If someone else were being attacked it would pose an even greater dilemma, obviously.

However, I'm afraid I am very sceptical of some of these reports of imminent attacks. As an erstwhile student of the history of American history in the 50's and 60's (that's the period studied, not when studied!!) I remain sceptical about the modern American machine of government and those that advise it. I just feel it's in their interest to scare everyone silly and make us afraid of Sadam etc.

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Nosmo:
Here we see the root of many problems.

I [my group, religion, family, colour] represent truth.

This other group is evil. They deserve to die.

This certainly does seem to be the way it comes across, Nosmo. I certainly agree with you. From what I hear Bush and his supporters seem to paint everything in black and white, forgetting that there are good Iraqis, Muslims etc as well as good Americans and Christians and also thinking that when America bombs innocent women, children and other civilians that's always excusable. I know not all Americans see it this way, but that does seem to be the tone of the US propaganda machine.

By the way, Erin, would it be wrong of me to think you did not rush out and by the latest Steve Earle CD? I thought he had a refreshing point of view.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Who is Steve Earle, and why should I care what some musician has to say on the subject? What could he possibly know about my life? Jackshit is what I'm thinking. Pretty much like you.

Since the two of you seem to be amateur psychologists in your spare time, I would be interested in hearing which religious or ethnic group I'm saying is evil, Nosmo and Karin.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Nosmo:
Here we see the root of many problems.

I [my group, religion, family, colour] represent truth.

This other group is evil. They deserve to die.

Amusingly, that's exactly how these terrorists see us. But not how I see them. You caricature and incredibly oversimplify my point of view if you think the same is how I feel about followers of Islam in general, or how the U.S. government responds to all threats. But hey, if oversimplification makes you happy, then go right ahead and do it. I actually would have no problem with people who sit around being or thinking evil; its the people who act on it that I feel need to be stopped.

Anyway, this ridiculous moral equivalence you're trying to make between the U.S. government and those who would kill us all just because of our nationality is obscene. God help Europe if you guys had been standing at the gates of Vienna when the Mongol hordes rolled up with their scimitars. You'd want to hold councils of understanding and try to do a "Khan Conference", and talk about what Europe had done to attract such hatred, et-bloody-cetera.

That you perceive that the US is equal to Israel of Hussein, or Al Quada, is a triumph of fuzzy warm morally relativistic thinking. Bin Laden must be laughing his butt off at all the Western Democracies he's got on his side. He hates you all too, you know.

I mean, it's absolutely extraordinary that someone who espouses an absolute principle (fighting back = always UnChristian) who then displays the sort of moral relativism you see from Bill Clinton on a bad day.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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I dunno... they could be speaking from experience, you know. After all, maybe they've discovered that if they'd all just been less English, they wouldn't have had that nasty little spat with the Third Reich.

[ 15. November 2002, 20:48: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
<snip!> From what I hear Bush and his supporters seem to paint everything in black and white, forgetting that there are good Iraqis, Muslims etc as well as good Americans and Christians and also thinking that when America bombs innocent women, children and other civilians that's always excusable. I know not all Americans see it this way, but that does seem to be the tone of the US propaganda machine.



The president gave a speech where he said "We see in Islam a religion that traces its origins back to God's call on Abraham. We share your belief in God's justice, and your insistence on man's moral responsibility. We thank the many Muslim nations who stand with us against terror. Nations that are often victims of terror, themselves."

I don't see that as "forgetting that there are good Muslims" as you say.

Perhaps you care to say what particular speech/words/phrasing that the President used to convey to you such a callous heart instead of just stating your opinion. I enjoy reading links to sources even if I disagree with them.

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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Thank you, a sensible reply to my comment. I hope you appreciate that I do not hear every speech Bush makes and I can only go by what I hear reported. I hope you also notice I was careful to use the word "seem".

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Thank you, a sensible reply to my comment. I hope you appreciate that I do not hear every speech Bush makes and I can only go by what I hear reported. I hope you also notice I was careful to use the word "seem".

Actually, Karin, what's remarkable about Bush (for whom I did not vote) is the consistency with which he has insisted upon the wrongness of equating the terrorists with Muslims in general. He has said this many times, even though there are those in his party who think them all the same.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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