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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Okay, that's it.
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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So, again, perhaps you could point to a quote wherein Bush or any of the US leaders have condemned all of Islam, etc. If you're going to claim that as justification of your opposition, you should at least be able to provide a cite. "I heard such-and-such" demonstrates an appalling gullibility. You would do well to find out things for yourself, rather than rely on third hand information.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I hope you appreciate that I do not hear every speech Bush makes and I can only go by what I hear reported.

Spot the person who reads 'The Guardian' to much.

Ps For the non-British readers the Guardian is a left wing quality paper.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Nosmo:
Here we see the root of many problems.

I [my group, religion, family, colour] represent truth.

This other group is evil. They deserve to die.

And Presleyterian's fears, based on her own experience, are just silly blind prejudice.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915

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Karin: You wanna know how my "Christian faith informs [my] reaction to the 'terrorist threat'"? (sarcastic internal quotations hers, not mine.) Well, here goes, boys and girls.

"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?" Isaiah 58:6.

As I read scripture, we're called to free the oppressed, liberate the exploited, and defend the weak. So if I see a thug beating up a kid on the street, I hope to heaven I do the right thing and try to fight him off for the kid's sake.

Of course, if it's your kid, Karen, I assume you'd prefer it if I applied moral suasion to the thug and asked your child to reflect deeply on his own actions to understand what he did to provoke the thug to behave that way.

Where's my bargain bin copy of Gary Cooper in Sergeant York when I need it?

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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915

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And thanks, Moo. For obvious reasons, this issue strikes close to home for members of your own family, too.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266

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Oh dear, tomb, we are so far from your post that it's a disconnect to answer. And how could I do so without being purgatorial? Especially since you make fair points and I can't swear at you? Ah well, I shall summarise: (In no particular order)
Clarification.
Direct refutation, sir!
Agreement.
Reassertion.
Gentle chiding.
Salute.

I hope that clears things up.

In seriousness, I chose "logician" at least partly in self-mockery. You may fairly accuse me of arrogance, but dishonesty? I bite my thumb, sir!

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formerly Logician

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I hope you appreciate that I do not hear every speech Bush makes and I can only go by what I hear reported.

Spot the person who reads 'The Guardian' to much.

Ps For the non-British readers the Guardian is a left wing quality paper.

That is not the newspaper we read. [Wink]

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Thank you, a sensible reply to my comment. I hope you appreciate that I do not hear every speech Bush makes and I can only go by what I hear reported. I hope you also notice I was careful to use the word "seem".

Actually, Karin, what's remarkable about Bush (for whom I did not vote) is the consistency with which he has insisted upon the wrongness of equating the terrorists with Muslims in general. He has said this many times, even though there are those in his party who think them all the same.
That is very interesting, Laura, I obviously hadn't picked up on that difference.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
So, again, perhaps you could point to a quote wherein Bush or any of the US leaders have condemned all of Islam, etc. If you're going to claim that as justification of your opposition, you should at least be able to provide a cite. "I heard such-and-such" demonstrates an appalling gullibility. You would do well to find out things for yourself, rather than rely on third hand information.

Erin, I glean my information from newspapers, the radio and occasional articles on the internet and very rarely, the tv. I form my opinions over time, so I can't pinpoint any specific article or quote. I see the purpose of argument/discussion as a way of testing and refining my opinions, not an excuse to be abusive. If I had couched my opinions in more cautious language, would I have elicited so much feedback? I don't think so. I must say that the predictability of your reaction is becoming a little tedious, though, Erin.

I have formed my opinions by giving the matter a certain amount of thought and I also look at what is actually happening: for instance the Aid that America, Britain and others promised Afghanistan, which from reports I have seen does not seem to be materialising, or at least not on the necessary scale. I appreciate those who are able to respond with their own thoughtful reasoning for the opinions they hold.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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Presleytarian, I interpret that passage differently from you. I see Jesus coming to overthrow oppression etc in a non-violent way and calling me to do likewise.

Those of you who are afraid are behaving in a natural way for human beings to behave and perhaps as you cannot literally fight or flee the threat, your verbal violence in places here (from some,not all) helps you to handle those fears. I have every sympathy for you. But I would be interested to know where Jesus is in your picture of the situation. Or perhaps your Jesus is a warrior urging you into battle.

My Jesus asks me to do what I can't be sure I would be able to do, but he is there to support me and help me in the task. Obviously there continue to be inconsistencies in my life as a Christian, and it is in discussing my beliefs that they can be highlighted, so this discussion has given me things to ponder.

For the record, Presleytarian, my male kid is more able to defend himself than I am, although perhaps you are bigger and beefier than me? [Razz]

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Originally posted by Karin3:

quote:
Those of you who are afraid are behaving in a natural way for human beings to behave and perhaps as you cannot literally fight or flee the threat, your verbal violence in places here (from some,not all) helps you to handle those fears. I have every sympathy for you. But I would be interested to know where Jesus is in your picture of the situation. Or perhaps your Jesus is a warrior urging you into battle.

My Jesus asks me to do what I can't be sure I would be able to do, but he is there to support me and help me in the task. Obviously there continue to be inconsistencies in my life as a Christian, and it is in discussing my beliefs that they can be highlighted, so this discussion has given me things to ponder.

IIRC you have stated that you don't think that a terrorist threat is likely to materialise from Al Quaeda. This seems to me to be overly sanguine, but you are entitled to your point of view. However I don't think that on the strength of that you can ask people where Jesus is in the equation, pointing to the strength that Jesus has given you. That would only be appropriate if you had seen, say, a report which you took seriously stating that Al Quaeda were going to hit Guildford. Until then you are, to use an Americanism, armchair quarterbacking.

Incidentally I am not an unqualified admirer of Bush and had I been a US citizen I would not have voted for him. But both his public pronouncements and his actions as a diplomat have, as Laura and Duchess have pointed out, shown that he makes a clear distinction between terrorists and Muslims.

It is not clear that opponents of Bush make this distinction as, in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, they make an equivalence of the two forces by suggesting that the main motivation for the advocacy of the use of force against Al Quaeda and Saddam is Islamophobia. This is rather akin to suggesting that opposition to, say, Loyalist terrorism makes one anti-Christian. It is worth restating that the majority of the victims of Islamic terrorism have, in fact, been Muslims.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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So, in other words, Karin, you admit to relying on thirdhand information. If you acquire your information through the Internet, there are plenty of places where you can get it firsthand, instead of relying on others to interpret it and hand feed it to you. Your responses are quite predictable, and nothing I haven't heard in my four-plus years on this bulletin board from the insular Brits who refuse to think outside their expectations.

Regarding your continued appeal to "where is Jesus in all of this", I will say this: I cannot follow a savior who would command me to stand by and watch others be murdered for the sake of my having a clean conscience. If I'm honest here, that's a coward's reaction. To stand by and watch others die while I am comfortably cocooned in self-righteous Christianity is the very antithesis of everything I know about God. And, luckily, not one person has ever been able to convince me that that's what Jesus actually wants.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Quantum
Shipmate
# 1129

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Spot the person who reads 'The Guardian' to much. Ps For the non-British readers the Guardian is a left wing quality paper.

The Guardian? Left wing? How can it be, it supports New Labour.

[Code]

[ 16. November 2002, 19:27: Message edited by: sarkycow ]

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Here we go again trading insults. Mr Bush, God-bless-his-socks, might well have sought to distance Islam from the acts of fanatics, but I would guess that many Americans on the street do equate terrorism with Islam/asians/arabs or whatever. Many Brits certainly do.

Why is it so difficult to claim your own piece of the problems in the world. Why are you so resistant to the idea that maybe, just maybe, everything you do isn't quite as clean and nice as you make out?

To all those who say that they want to break the chains of injustice, I say, Go on then. Go sell all the junk you don't need and live more simply. You are only interested in these 'chains' cos they have impacted on your lifestyles. I'm sorry, but living at the standard of living that you and I are accustomed to is not good enough. Each day we hold thousands of people in poverty due to our consumption of cheap products.

I agree, Erin I don't think Jesus would either. But then I don't think Jesus would be happy as we sit back in our warm armchairs whilst the world dies. Let us get one thing clear. Muslim fundamentalists are a problem in the world. No doubt about it. But they are a miniscule problem compared to the problems that you and I cause.

Jesus would look at my life and your life and ask us what we need to change. It may placate your conscience to drop bombs on innocents, deny rights to the guilty, whip up public opinion to such an extent that anything is better than actually sorting out the problems but it certainly does not mine.

So come on then. Prove you are right. How exactly is the present course of action going to help matters? Show me exactly where in your oh so cherished bill of rights it says that these things apply to everyone except 'illegal combatants'. Show me how foreign policies of your country and mine have helped bring peace in the world. And I mean the world, not just the places where we live.

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arse

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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The Pledge of Resistance

We believe that as people living
in the United States it is our
responsibility to resist the injustices
done by our government,
in our names

Not in our name
will you wage endless war
there can be no more deaths
no more transfusions
of blood for oil

Not in our name
will you invade countries
bomb civilians, kill more children
letting history take its course
over the graves of the nameless

Not in our name
will you erode the very freedoms
you have claimed to fight for

Not by our hands
will we supply weapons and funding
for the annihilation of families
on foreign soil

Not by our mouths
will we let fear silence us

Not by our hearts
will we allow whole peoples
or countries to be deemed evil

Not by our will
and Not in our name

We pledge resistance

We pledge alliance with those
who have come under attack
for voicing opposition to the war
or for their religion or ethnicity

We pledge to make common cause
with the people of the world
to bring about justice,
freedom and peace

Another world is possible
and we pledge to make it real.

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arse

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
But they are a miniscule problem compared to the problems that you and I cause.
And what problems do I cause, Nosmo? Please, provide specific examples, along with proof, of the things that I do. Thanks in advance.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
So, in other words, Karin, you admit to relying on thirdhand information. If you acquire your information through the Internet, there are plenty of places where you can get it firsthand, instead of relying on others to interpret it and hand feed it to you. Your responses are quite predictable, and nothing I haven't heard in my four-plus years on this bulletin board from the insular Brits who refuse to think outside their expectations.

Erin, please read more carefully. I believe I said "occasional articles on the internet", which I think makes it obvious that this is not my main source of news. What do you mean by "first hand"? Surely every news report is biased anyway. Whoever writes it will have a particular axe to grind. Surely the best thing is to listen to what the people on the right are saying and those who favour bashing terrorists in a misguided attempt to find a quick fix and then listen to what the people on the left are saying, and those who will not consider war under any circumstances and try and sort out the truth form somewhere in the middle. Sometimes it is possible to hear from someone who really seems to know about a situation such as one of the weapons inspectors who was in Iraq previously. He was interviewed on Radio 4 (a serious news programme) and gave convicing evidence that it is very unlikely that Saddam Hussein has acquired weapons of mass destruction at the present.

If I thought Iraq were a real threat I would agree that war was necessary. From what I understand of the situation the American media is feeding the fear of US citizens with exaggerated claims and unfounded stories. Of course if the people around you think a certain way it will affect your own thinking.

As far as terrorism is concerned I don't know how you can wage war on terrorism. This is where I really feel the Christian way can offer a serious alternative to bombing and starving innocent people in the hope that a few terrorists get hit in the process. Let us put our money where our faith is and really work for peace by giving serious aid to a country like Afghanistan and other impoverished countries who do not have oppressive regimes. Bush and Blair have said it would be a good idea, but they don't seem to be acting on it. Moreover, America and any other Western state would be well advised to withhold aid to Israel. According to a recent article by Tony Campolo something like 65% of US aid goes to Isreal and likely as not funds its aggression against Palestine. I'm not saying Palestine is innocent of crimes against Israel, there is wrong on both sides, but this is obvius fuel to those who wish to prove that Western powers are anti-Muslim. It is seriously bad PR and quite possibly bad ethics. Changes in the trade laws and the policies of the World Bank would help reduce the amount of resentment against the US in particular and the West in general. Christians, who are called to be peacemakers (not necessarily pacifists), gentle, humble and loving etc. could work harder to bring about changes that make war less likely.

Btw, it isn't possible that your way of thinking is insular is it? Americans are notorious for that, but perhaps you are a particularly well-informed one who knows what is going on in the rest of the world.

quote:
Regarding your continued appeal to "where is Jesus in all of this", I will say this: I cannot follow a savior who would command me to stand by and watch others be murdered for the sake of my having a clean conscience. If I'm honest here, that's a coward's reaction. To stand by and watch others die while I am comfortably cocooned in self-righteous Christianity is the very antithesis of everything I know about God. And, luckily, not one person has ever been able to convince me that that's what Jesus actually wants.

I am not advocating that either. I don't think Jesus advocates the use of violence on a personal level, but I think when war is imminent a state must defend themselves. I'm not sure about when another individual is being attacked, but I don't think I'd have the ability to do much other than call the police or try to intervene. I never carry a weapon and I do not wish to. What do you realistically think you could do?

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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I am not going to discuss this with you any further until you STOP TALKING ABOUT IRAQ, which is NOT WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT.

Jesus H Christ, how many times do I have to say this?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Quantum
Shipmate
# 1129

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I am not going to discuss this with you any further

Oh, good.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Go back to your whiner's thread in Heaven, k? I started this thread, if you don't like the way the discussion is going, why are you here?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Quantum
Shipmate
# 1129

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I've been looking for this quote for a day or two, forgive me if it is a little over-long:
"It requires great self-denial and resignation of ourselves to God to attain the state wherein we can freely cease from fighting when wrongfully invaded, if by our fighting there were a probability of overcoming the invaders. Whoever rightly attains to it does in some degree feel that spirit in which our Redeemer gave his life for us, and through divine goodness many of our predecessors, and many now living, have learned this blessed lesson; but many others having their religion chiefly by education, and not being enough acquainted with that Cross which crucifies to the world, do manifest a temper distinguishable from that of an entire trust in God"

Sorry, I did say it went on a bit.

It was written, not by any of the European liberals so disliked by Erin, but by a resident of Mount Holly, New Jersey.

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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266

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The connection won't be apparent at first. Stick with me on this.

I have a patient I am very fond of. He belongs to a rather fringey Christian group which believes that one should rely on direct healing from God rather than on medication. Most of us are quite aware of the passages in Scripture which would support this view, and many of us may have been criticised by such folk for being faithless and taking medicines.

Before I proceed, I shall note that this seems quite parallel to Jesus's comments about turning the other cheek.

The medication my friend needs is a psychiatric medication, which he must take for the rest of his life. Without the medication he becomes paranoid and assaultive. He is a large man and has hurt several people badly when not on his medication.

Through great agony of soul, he came to the conclusion that he

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formerly Logician

Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915

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Karin wrote:
quote:
"For the record, Presleytarian, my male kid is more able to defend himself than I am..."
Lucky for him, since obviously his mother's not going to lift a finger in his defense. Wouldn't want to sully her conscience and all.

And by the way, Karin, re your "insular Americans" comment, I was born in Europe and lived there off and on over the years. For how long were you a resident of the United States?

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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266

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<excuse me...ahem>

must continue with his medication, even at risk to his salvation, in order to not be a danger. I remember him weeping repeatedly over a period of months, fearing that God would no longer honor his conversion, but remaining steadfast in his refusal to go off his meds and rely on the "spiritual" solution.

In this story, Nosmo, you would be equivalent to his co-religionists who told him he was being faithless by taking meds.

I don't think you have stated this directly, but I think it is implicit in your posts. Your insistence on a clear demarcation between "spiritual," "Christian" solutions and worldly ones will lead you into huge temptations. It is not an automatic transformation*, but many who adopt your views develop contempt for themselves, their opponents, or both. I have been there, and it is hellish.

*It may be inexorable, but we just don't all live long enough to develop that fine contempt.

--------------------
formerly Logician

Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
marmot

Mountain mammal
# 479

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Would somebody just please kill me now, so that I don't oppress anyone else by breathing their air?

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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"

Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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BANG!

At her request marmot's been prevented from inadvertently offending anyone else (unless her remains are disposed of in an oppressive manner).

Can I be next, since I don't think I can live with all of this guilt?

--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Karin wrote:
quote:
"For the record, Presleytarian, my male kid is more able to defend himself than I am..."
Lucky for him, since obviously his mother's not going to lift a finger in his defense. Wouldn't want to sully her conscience and all.

And by the way, Karin, re your "insular Americans" comment, I was born in Europe and lived there off and on over the years. For how long were you a resident of the United States?

So, Presleytarian, what would you do if your son or anyone else was being attacked by "a thug"? Perhaps you should imagine it happening in England, as it is against the law here to carry a weapon of any description. You do make a lot of assumptions!

Well, Europe isn't quite Britain, but Britain is in the continent of Europe. The USA is not the only country in the continent of America. I spent several of my formative years in Canada and have also lived in Germany briefly. I have friends and realtions in Germany, I have acquaintances in France, a Japanese friend, now living back in Japan, have been on friendly terms with a couple of Brazilian women. I have been acquainted with a number of people from various parts of the world over the years. I am fairly fluent in French and German.

I was in fact responding to Erin's rather presumptious remark and it does happen to be true that Americans including some of the Amercian politicians have a reputation for self-interest and a poor knowledge of what lies beyond their shores. I appreciate that this is not true of all Americans, it is a shame that Erin cannot appreciate that such generalisations are not true in all cases.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
...Non-violence as a philosophy is anything but pragmatic. At its heart, it is prophetic, and well we know what they do to prophets. They did it to Martin, and they did it to Bobby Kennedy....

Bobby Kennedy -- that calculating, law-breaking, do-unto-others-before-they-do-unto-you, womanizing, enemy-threatening, son-of-privilege cynical weasel -- a PROPHET?

Good Lord, deliver us.

[Projectile] [Projectile] [Projectile] [Projectile]

Rossweisse // not a fan

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
So, Presleytarian, what would you do if your son or anyone else was being attacked by "a thug"? Perhaps you should imagine it happening in England, as it is against the law here to carry a weapon of any description. You do make a lot of assumptions!

I'm not Presleyterian, but if I witnessed my son or anyone else (including you!) being violently attacked, I'd intervene. Whether or not I was armed would have no influence beyond choice of tactics.

What many of you fail to understand is that actively opposing evil and protecting the weak is a principled position just like pacifism or nonviolence. The choice of an action is not necessarily based on its likely effectiveness.

scot

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
BANG!

At her request marmot's been prevented from inadvertently offending anyone else (unless her remains are disposed of in an oppressive manner).

Can I be next, since I don't think I can live with all of this guilt?

BANG!

There you go, Scot.

The burden of being a Western imperialist war-mongering environment-destroying racist sexist ageist oppressor is just too much. Trying to strike down terrorism before it takes anymore innocent lives -- the nerve! Where does the US get off trying to defend its citizens? How VERY unChristian of us to endorse protecting the innocent.

[brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]

Okay, I'm next.

Rossweisse // just overwhelmed by our Badness

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
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# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I am not going to discuss this with you any further until you STOP TALKING ABOUT IRAQ, which is NOT WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT.

Jesus H Christ, how many times do I have to say this?

So sorry, Erin, I had forgotten that Iraq is a four letter word. [Wink] It seemed relevant to me, but then I'm only an "insular Brit", so what could I possibly know about it.

I haven't read the report from Interpol, btw, nor do I have any intention of doing so, just as I have no intention of looking in the Family Health Encyclopaedia to see if I might possibly have some life threatening illness. Erin I really think you should stop and consider how likely it is that you are to be the victim of a terrorist attack. Sorry to disappoint you, but statistically you are much more likely to die of cancer or a heart-attack, or the American equivalent of being knocked down by the no.9 bus.

If you call the report from Interpol first hand information you can keep it. If you think I have nothing better to do with my time than search the internet for such things you are very much mistaken. Have you considered why Interpol publish the information they do on the internet? Do you think it's merely a kindness to American citizens to warn them of real and imminent danger? I really doubt it.

You may be interested in this extract from an article in Tuesday's Independent, it might help you to adopt a more sensible attitude to this supposed terrorist threat (that is not intended as sarcasm, I merely do not consider the threat to be as real as you obviously do):

quote:
Tony Blair prepared the Brisitish public last night for the "pain" of terrorist attacks by al-Qa'ida but warned that the world would only defeat terrorism by political as well as security co-operation.......
....... While calling for the public to be vigilant, he highlighted the "dilemma" facing the Government over when to issue specific warnings. Some MPs believe he issued the general warning so the Government could say people had been warned if an attack took place. Stressing that a "balance" had to be struck, Mr Blair said he would have shut roads, railways, airports, stations, shopping centres, factories and military installations on many occasions if he had acted on every piece of raw intelligence.
"The purpose of terrorism is not just to kill and maim", he said. "It is to scare people, disrupt their normal lives, produce chaos and disorder, distort proper and sensible decision making. The dilemma is reconciling warning people without alarming them; taking preventive measures without destroying normal life."....
.....Mr Blair said the international community needed to be unified in its political response. Coalitions of force were stronger when buttressed by a coalition of common ideas.
He added: "The world needs a broader agenda than simply terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. And we need full US engagement and leadership of all of it. President Bush recognises that." ......
........ So there was a need to "reach out" to the Arab and Muslim world. "We need to understand the passion and anger the state of the Middle East peace process arouses", he said. "The answer is not to apportion blame. The answere is to move the process forward: on security, on political reform, on the only viable solution the whole world now supports - an Israeli state, recognised by all, and a viable Palestinian state. And do it quickly. Until this happens, this issue hangs like a dark shadow over our world, chilling our relations with each other, poisoning the understanding of our motives, providing the cover under which the fanatics build strength."

That all makes a lot of sense to me.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
So, Presleytarian, what would you do if your son or anyone else was being attacked by "a thug"? Perhaps you should imagine it happening in England, as it is against the law here to carry a weapon of any description. You do make a lot of assumptions!

I'm not Presleyterian, but if I witnessed my son or anyone else (including you!) being violently attacked, I'd intervene. Whether or not I was armed would have no influence beyond choice of tactics.

What many of you fail to understand is that actively opposing evil and protecting the weak is a principled position just like pacifism or nonviolence. The choice of an action is not necessarily based on its likely effectiveness.

scot

Looky here, Scot and anyone else who thinks that I have no desire to intervene to protect others from violence. You are barking up the wrong tree. I do not think I would be justified in taking another's life, but that isn't the same thing. As it happens I spend a fair part of my time at work intervening to protect children from violence by other children, but that doesn't require much courage as the most that is likely to happen in most cases is that I get a bruised shin. I am also trying to do my small bit to help a child with a disrupted and possibly violent home background turn into an adult who does not need to resort to violence. It may be a forlorn hope, but it is essential that we try.

I am sure the strong feelings I have for my children would urge me to do whatever I could to protect them, but I certainly feel called to avoid violence if I can, which is not the same thing as saying I can rely on myself living up to what I aim for.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Presleyterian
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# 1915

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Well, Karin, how lovely for you that you have acquaintances in Japan and are friendly with a couple of women from Brazil. For all I know, you may also eat Turkish taffy, wear a Panama hat, and have had German measles. My question -- which I think is quite reasonable, given your penchant for generalizations about America's history, people, and politics -- was "For how long were you a resident of the United States?" And now I think we know the answer: Zero. Zippy. Zilch.

You're correct that I've lived on the continent, but not in Great Britain, but you're ignoring a crucial distinction: I have yet to express a single opinion to you about the history, people, or politics of the country in which you live. That's because it strikes me as a prudent course of action to pipe down and listen when I don't have first-hand knowledge about a topic.

And now let's turn to your statement:
quote:
...it does happen to be true that Americans including some of the Amercian politicians have a reputation for self-interest and a poor knowledge of what lies beyond their shores.
Quite a nifty little tautology. Yes, it may be true that some Americans have a reputation for self-interest. Just as it is true that certain posters may have a reputation for talking out of their hat. However, I think one would have to agree that a reputation for a particular characteristic isn't the same as actually possessing that trait.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Presleyterian
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# 1915

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Sorry, Rossweisse. I was going to intervene to prevent you from doing further violence, but I've come to adopt Karin's approach.

So fire away.

Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
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# 3474

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Presleytarian, you may think you are very clever, but you seem to have misunderstood what I said. You have only quoted half of what I said, and so have twisted my meaning entirely.

I don't see any tautology either. Herald angel is an example of a tautology, angel and herald both being words that mean messenger. Tautology is a tautology itself, tautos being Greek for "word", logos being the Latin. Perhaps I've missed it, but I couldn't see any tautology in your example

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
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# 3474

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Moreover, Presleytarian, the response to where I have lived etc. was in relation to insularism. You seem to move goal posts as well as twist the facts. I don't think a person needs to live in a country to be aware of it's history. Perhaps it's a shame you haven't studied more of British History. I don't pretend to be an expert on American History and speak only of what I know. If my view doesn't match yours it doesn't make me wrong.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rea:
I've been looking for this quote for a day or two, forgive me if it is a little over-long:
"It requires great self-denial and resignation of ourselves to God to attain the state wherein we can freely cease from fighting when wrongfully invaded, if by our fighting there were a probability of overcoming the invaders. Whoever rightly attains to it does in some degree feel that spirit in which our Redeemer gave his life for us, and through divine goodness many of our predecessors, and many now living, have learned this blessed lesson; but many others having their religion chiefly by education, and not being enough acquainted with that Cross which crucifies to the world, do manifest a temper distinguishable from that of an entire trust in God"

Sorry, I did say it went on a bit.

It was written, not by any of the European liberals so disliked by Erin, but by a resident of Mount Holly, New Jersey.

Sorry, Bill, forgot to say I like that quote. It provides a great deal of food for thought IMO.

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Oh Lordy Jesus help me.

Karin, do you really think you are the first ignorant moron to darken the doors of these boards? Hardly. The reason why you're getting the unreasonable responses is because those of us who've been here for a while (including Presleyterian) have HEARD IT ALL BEFORE. You're wrong, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried, and you refuse to be put right.

quote:
I appreciate that this is not true of all Americans, it is a shame that Erin cannot appreciate that such generalisations are not true in all cases.
I'm the one who goes absolutely batshit when ignorant morons such as yourself engage in the practice. I have heard your same tired drivel from other insular Brits who came before you.

You spent in time in Canada. That does not qualify you to draw any sort of conclusion as to life in the United States, or how Americans think or are, as Canada is a whole nother world from us. I'm sure the Canadians on board will wholeheartedly agree that they are not us, and we are not them.

[edited for the RIGHT version]

[ 16. November 2002, 22:56: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915

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Karin: A tautology is also a rhetorical device whereby one attempts to prove the truth of a premise by defining the terms in a circular manner so that the truth of the statement cannot be challenged. By using the argument that Americans' "reputation for insularism" (and I'd love to see your source for that generalization) proves their insularism, you are using such a rhetorical device.

And please don't take my refusal to pop off authoritatively about what goes on in Great Britain as proof that I "need[] to stud[y] more of British History." It's simply that when my knowledge of a subject comes primarily from reading rather than from first-hand experience, I think it's a wise idea to keep my mouth shut so that I can learn a thing or two from those whose information isn't filtered through potentially biased third parties.

So when the topic is, say, physics or health care policy or penology or geology or British law, I do my best to listen to Dr. Cresswell or Erin or Arrietty or Scot or Dyfrig, rather than assume that my two cents is equal to theirs.

Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I don't pretend to be an expert on American History and speak only of what I know.

Really?

quote:
Earlier you said but that does seem to be the tone of the US propaganda machine.
You seem to have swollen 'hook line and sinker' a European form of propaganda without checking what Bush actually said.

admittingly you have said
quote:
From what I hear
It could be wrong you know...

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Erin I really think you should stop and consider how likely it is that you are to be the victim of a terrorist attack. Sorry to disappoint you, but statistically you are much more likely to die of cancer or a heart-attack, or the American equivalent of being knocked down by the no.9 bus.
A woman of Erin's age is extremely unlikely to die of a heart attack and not very likely to die of cancer.

You say "...statistically you are much more likely...". If statistics show that the average family has 2.3 children, that does not mean that there are any families with 2.3 children.

Somewhere, either on this thread or another one, Erin has stated why she thinks she is at above-average risk. Her reasons seemed to be well thought-out. The shipmates who live in large cities or near military facilities are at much greater risk than those like me who live in more sparsely-populated areas with no miltary bases nearby.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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I have LIVED IN LONDON. Only 3 months in the Knightsbridge district of London...near Scot's corner off of Brompton Road. It was enough time to know how ignorant I am of all things British, a pity since I am mostly British in my heritage.

I saw though for myself the way the British media twisted and peverted things on their end duing the 1989 earthquake in California. To my amazement, the paper listed "240 people dead". It turned out, not that many people died! When I went back to California, I went back with the knowledge that your media is as messed up as mine!

I have to dig to get facts...read everything to the right and everything to the left to get an idea...and still..I wonder since the media distorts things.

Presleyterian doesn't think she is clever, she KNOWS she is clever...cause SHE IS DARN CLEVER. She is more well-read than either you or I am (I make that assumption since like a lot of people...you did not take debate in highschool and do not understand how important it is to back up your facts with a source). In my debate class, if you could not cite the page of the magazine you got information from for your defense...you were disqualified. Any person can argue from emotion, it is more difficult to present the facts as you see fit...even more citing the source you gleamed the nugget of information from.

Erin may be rough around the edges but she certainly hits the nail on the head about you being isolated in your views. It kind of is a stereotype. To be fair, Americans CAN BE isolated in their beliefs...however on this board I don't see as much of that as I do in real life.

I think I will stop here since I feel like I am wasting my breath here. If you believe everything the British media says...than it is hopeless to educate you. [Waterworks]

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474

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Well, there's not much evidence of the ability to debate here. Resorting to personal attack resembles cornered animals rather than people with a strong argument.

Some elements of the British press are prone to distorting the truth others less so. I use great discretion in choosing what to believe. Your own press will also have it's axe to grind and can't always be believed. If you prefer to let fear rule your lives then good luck to you. In the unlikely event that an al-Qa'ida terrorist reads your posts I'm sure they would give him great satisfaction.

Oh, and I have not made any claims that living in Canada gives me any insights into America. I am well aware that the Canadians are quite different people from the Americans. I am also aware the USA is a big place and its peoples differ enormously.

I shall go and discuss things with more reasonable people. I am disappointed in you.




[corrected Karin 3's grammar. "It's" and "Its" are NOT the same word.

[ 18. November 2002, 02:53: Message edited by: tomb ]

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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably

Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I am disappointed in you.

Gee, you're such a respected and long term member of the boards that I must go and commit suicide now.

[Killing me]

I'm sorry, who are you again?

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rea:
I've been looking for this quote for a day or two, forgive me if it is a little over-long:
"It requires great self-denial and resignation of ourselves to God to attain the state wherein we can freely cease from fighting when wrongfully invaded, if by our fighting there were a probability of overcoming the invaders. Whoever rightly attains to it does in some degree feel that spirit in which our Redeemer gave his life for us, and through divine goodness many of our predecessors, and many now living, have learned this blessed lesson; but many others having their religion chiefly by education, and not being enough acquainted with that Cross which crucifies to the world, do manifest a temper distinguishable from that of an entire trust in God"

Sorry, I did say it went on a bit.

It was written, not by any of the European liberals so disliked by Erin, but by a resident of Mount Holly, New Jersey.

Hey Bill;

Not to offend you, but the above quote is, in the wonderful English phrase, bollocks. Pardon me while I rip it apart.

The quote is pure horseshit. From beginning to end, it is illogical, badly written, badly exegeted from Scripture, excruciatingly convoluted, and completely inane. Whether it was written by William Penn, Abraham Lincoln, or handed down by the angel Moroni on golden tablets: It's still crap.

The smug, self-righteous yabbo that wrote this rancid puddle intimates that only the truly higher level of Christian submits passively to the evil of armed invasion of one's homeland or that of others, unless (and here's the really twisty bit) there's no chance of that invasion being stopped or thrown back. Presumably, you or I picking up a brick and heaving it at an invading army is a sign of insufficient self-denial and inadequate resignation of ourself to God unless there's no chance of us actually hitting anyone or surviving long enough to throw another brick. And, of course, you or I throwing that brick also demonstrate we've gotten our Christianity through "education" and not by any actual interaction or experience of Jesus.

The "Rape of Nanking" and the BBC's report on the Killing Fields of Cambodia are just two examples of gross evil done by an invading force. (Yes, the Khmer Rouge were not foreigners, but they invaded Cambodia just as surely as any outside oppressor could have done.) Equating spiritual greatness with passive acceptance of this type of evil is worse than cowardice, it is a fundamental betrayal of one's social compact with one's homeland and with free humanity at large. It is the first step toward civil rights curtailed "for the duration of the Emergency," the midnight arrests, the show trials, the concentration camps, the expunging of the names and faces of those so disfavored from public records. It is a climate where "honor" and "integrity" are twisted in the mouths of totalitarian demagogues to mean betrayal and slavish obedience to an oppressor.

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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com

Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote from Karin 3
quote:
I shall go and discuss things with more reasonable people.
Please do.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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And the final score is: Presleyterian 27, Karin3 0.

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Well, there's not much evidence of the ability to debate here. Resorting to personal attack resembles cornered animals rather than people with a strong argument.

Rather missed the point of being in HELL...

Ah, foolishness, rampant as ever.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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Seeing as you ask

2.4 Billion people have inadequate sanitation
150 million children are currently malnourished

Dirty water is the biggest killer in the would causing illnesses including

Diarrhoea - 4 billion cases per year, causing 2.2 million deaths (mainly of children under 5)

source: unicef 2001

One person in five is unable to write

source: unesco 1997

This is avoidable.

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arse

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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915

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Yes, yes, yes, Nosmo. You're absolutely right. That should indeed be the focus.

But how many of those 2.4 billion people with inadequate sanitation, 150 million malnourished children, and 2.2 million who die annually due to preventable gastrointestinal disease live in countries where people enjoy civil liberties, where citizens have meaningful choice at the ballot box, where workers' wages support their families rather than the current strongman or tribal chieftain in power, where the faithful can worship in accordance with their conscience, where political dissidents can speak out without fear of retaliation, and where women are free to create their own destinies?

Yes, as a Christian, I have a duty to do what I can to get food, water, and medicine to people who need it today.

But I also believe I have a duty to help them cast off the kleptocrats so that they'll be free to provide their own food, water, and medicine tomorrow.

Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged



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