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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Okay, that's it.
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Nosmo, I understand that it is Erin who you are accusing of causing malnutrition, infectious disease, diarrhea and illiteracy. However, since she has been judged guilty on the basis of simply being a citizen of a western nation, I will assume I am included in the accusation and therefore I am entitled to respond.
First, your post was nonresponsive in that it failed to offer any of the requested proof. You might have at least included some invalid and easily disproven "evidence" to support your position. In failing to do so, you appear to be both silly and boring.
Second, you do not seem to understand the concept of causation. Even if the western nations are guilty of failure to attempt prevention of your list of maladies (a proposition which is far from accurate), they are in no way the cause of the problems. Inadequate food supplies cause malnutrition. Shitting in the stream causes dirty water which, in turn, causes diarhea. Lack of schooling or lack of interest cause illiteracy. Even if you look at the causes of the inadequate food supply, lack of proper sanitation and absence of schools, you will find local, rather than western, causes.
In summary, keep your angst to yourself. I am not the cause of the world's problems.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nosmo:
Seeing as you ask
2.4 Billion people have inadequate sanitation
150 million children are currently malnourished
Dirty water is the biggest killer in the would causing illnesses including
Diarrhoea - 4 billion cases per year, causing 2.2 million deaths (mainly of children under 5)
source: unicef 2001
One person in five is unable to write
source: unesco 1997
This is avoidable.
I'm guessing this is a response to me. (That, or it's just a random blathering thrown in here for no reason.) However, you have failed to do what was actually requested -- namely, prove that I've actually caused those things to happen.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
[Sarcasm]
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
However, you have failed to do what was actually requested -- namely, prove that I've actually caused those things to happen.
But Erin, as an American you are the cause of everything that is wrong with the world. Have you not figured this out already? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Of course, everything that's right with the world is due to Brits triumphing depsite America's opposition and desperate desire to tie us to its apron strings. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[/Sarcasm]
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
You mean you're not tied to our apron strings? Well damn.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Bongo
Shipmate
# 778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
The European liberal mainstream view (and I have to say that I feel like a rape victim being criticised about her skirt length whenever I run up against it) is that the United States deserves this hatred, and all the connected terrorist activities, that the Palestinians are all nice and cuddly, that the Israelis are bad, and that the terrorists are just misunderstood victims of global capitalism (by which they mean "the United States"), and that the United States probably wasn't even justified in going after Bin Laden.
Oh Good God.
No it fucking isn't.
I'm a European and a liberal, and you're calling me a terrorist appeaser which is just about the most offensive and hurtful thing you could possibly accuse me of. Your charicature of 'mainstream' liberal thinking is way off.
I'm sure there are a few nutters who think the USA 'had it coming' on 11th September '01; but these people are not mainstream by any stetch of the imagination. Or do you really think that all European liberals raise a cheer when Palestinian suicide bombers slaughter Israeli children?? 'Cos that's what you're implying.
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"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!" ~ Dr Strangelove
Posts: 492 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2001
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
Bongo, I'm glad to hear it isn't. Truly. I would assume if it were widespread, it would come to your attention.
I have encountered several from Durham, and half-a-dozen from London with that view, and that parallels the more radical college towns here in the US -- Ann Arbor, Berkeley, Cambridge. In those places the common opinion is as described above your post.
What I more frequently hear is not the full-throated condemnation by the radicals, but the milk-and-water version of the same thing, which spends seven seconds saying Of course I don't support terrorism but... and then spends seven minutes criticising Bush, the US, and Israel. I don't know how common that is in the UK, but I imagine you have encountered at least some.
Perhaps, as in other things, the more extreme are the people who make the news, and thus give a false impression of their real numbers.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Obnoxious Snob
Arch-Deacon
# 982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by logician:
Bongo, I'm glad to hear it isn't. Truly. I would assume if it were widespread, it would come to your attention.
I have encountered several from Durham, and half-a-dozen from London with that view, and that parallels the more radical college towns here in the US -- Ann Arbor, Berkeley, Cambridge. In those places the common opinion is as described above your post.
What I more frequently hear is not the full-throated condemnation by the radicals, but the milk-and-water version of the same thing, which spends seven seconds saying Of course I don't support terrorism but... and then spends seven minutes criticising Bush, the US, and Israel. I don't know how common that is in the UK, but I imagine you have encountered at least some.
Perhaps, as in other things, the more extreme are the people who make the news, and thus give a false impression of their real numbers.
What a simply wonderful and not so subtle piece of conservative sophistry. The iron fist in the velvet glove?
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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'
Christopher Fry
Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I am disappointed in you.
Gee, you're such a respected and long term member of the boards that I must go and commit suicide now.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I'm sorry, who are you again?
What a thoroughly vile post.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
And, yet again, I'm crushed. No really.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Egad, another victim of the Erinocracy.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
And, yet again, I'm crushed. No really.
Don't flatter yourself that everything from terrorist threats to posts on SoF is all about you. I wasn't thinking about your feelings at all, just reflecting that communication is better than silence, understanding is better than stupidity, and thinking it possible I might be mistaken is better than piss off all the people who disagree with me.
And thinking that discussion boards where a broad spectrum of views can be heard are better than - well, see above.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
...And thinking that discussion boards where a broad spectrum of views can be heard are better than - well, see above.
Speaking of "see above," why not direct your virtual feet to Purgatory, where your requirements are far more likely to be met?
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
This here is Hell, where even American imperialists are allowed to say what they think.
Rossweisse // capitalist running dog
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
And, yet again, I'm crushed. No really.
Don't flatter yourself that everything from terrorist threats to posts on SoF is all about you. I wasn't thinking about your feelings at all, just reflecting ...<snip!>
Wow...I hear someone singing "It had to Be You..ERIN" in the background...
Lyrics ...is that Harry Connick Jr. coming in here singing...? Well, he sure looks like him....
Gosh...I am so distracted...wait...let me read your post again..something about Erin not having anything to do with this...boy you sure put a lot of energy into proving that...
Well, at least I can stare at this guy singing to Erin and ad-libing BOLDLY into the song as he sings it, even if I covet this...
what's that hatless...you put him up to this..? Look, hatless is singing along!
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
And thinking that discussion boards where a broad spectrum of views can be heard are better than - well, see above.
Honeychile, this ain't no reasoned debate type discussion board. This is HELL, and welcome to it. I think you have it confused with Purgatory; that's upstairs to your left (or right as the case may be).
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
...And thinking that discussion boards where a broad spectrum of views can be heard are better than - well, see above.
Speaking of "see above," why not direct your virtual feet to Purgatory, where your requirements are far more likely to be met?
This here is Hell, where even American imperialists are allowed to say what they think.
Rossweisse // capitalist running dog
It's not American Imperialists having their say that's the problem. It's American Imperialists redirecting the rest of us that I object to.
Or is that what hell is? Unchecked American Imperialism? It certainly fits with my prejudices, (although I must admit the truth is often a little different.)
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
hatless, my sig line isn't a joke. I mean it very sincerely. There are people who bring nothing to the conversation and would do the world a favor if they'd just shut their freakin' traps.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
...Or is that what hell is? Unchecked American Imperialism? It certainly fits with my prejudices, (although I must admit the truth is often a little different.)
No, actual Hell is actually unchecked mindless liberal sophistry, run amok.
At least, that's one of my personal definitions thereof. (I have more.)
In THIS version of Hell, we can all say what we think, which makes it truly hellish only to some.
Rossweisse // who also believes that, in the real Hell, out-of-tune guitars and vocalists (as opposed to singers) bang out revoltingly simplistic praise music nonstop
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
who also believes that, in the real Hell, out-of-tune guitars and vocalists (as opposed to singers) bang out revoltingly simplistic praise music nonstop
Oh No!!! I'm going to confession tomorrow! I'll be good. I promise. Please don't send me there. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
quote:
Karin 3 wrote:
...Looky here, Scot and anyone else who thinks that I have no desire to intervene to protect others from violence. You are barking up the wrong tree. I do not think I would be justified in taking another's life, but that isn't the same thing. As it happens I spend a fair part of my time at work intervening to protect children from violence by other children, but that doesn't require much courage as the most that is likely to happen in most cases is that I get a bruised shin.....
I am returning to this thread somewhat late, having experienced a somewhat unfortunate medical problem, the details of which i won't elaborate.
I am, however, TAKING notes. Logician/cum/Tybalt bites his thumb at me; Rossewiesse throws up (YAY!). You both can eat shit and die.
But Karin 3: a "bruised shin?" What kind of Marjorie Kinning Rawlings universe do you inhabit? I am so glad you try to protect children from other children. Too bad you weren't in the school district my son is in a couple of years ago last April; then, perhaps, the Columbine massacre wouldn't have happened.
Bruised shin, indeed.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
My goodness, I go off to Amsterdam for a weekend of dope smoking and prostitute vistin' (OK, not an entirely accurate account of the weekend) and I come back to discover that this thread has become a behemoth.
One thought occurs to me reading through what's been posted in the last few days: what is it that Osama Bin Laden wants? I think it is undeniable that he is an extremely smart guy, so I find it unlikely that he really thinks it is in his capactiy to wipe us Westerners (or even just us Americans) off the face of the earth. This may or may not be his ultimate goal, but he's too smart to think that it is something he himself can achieve.
Taking seriously the fact that he is a terroritst of the particularly fanatical sort, I'm guessing that his goal is twofold: 1) make us scared shitless (that's why they're called "terrorists") so that 2) we (the US and its friends) will respond in such a way as to turn him and his followers into martyrs, thus galvanizing the Islamic world against the West.
Judging from this thread, he's doing a pretty good job at #1 and he's well on the way to achieving #2.
Of course, you can't really help your immediate emotional response to a credible threat (and, though I hate to agree with Erin on anything, I do think that the threats are credible) and occasionally I feel that fear creeping up on me. After all, I live right outside of Brussels, where NATO and the EU are headquartered, so I figure I'm pretty much in Europe's ground zero. I try not to let the fear dominate my life, but I'd have to be inhuman not to have it.
I suppose where I differ from some people here is that, both as a matter of my Christian faith and as a matter of prudential national policy, I do not want to give Osama Bin Laden the victory he really wants (see goal number 2 above). I'd like to think that non-Islamicist (i.e. non-"fundamentalist") Muslims would keep cool heads, but I also recognize the human tendency to strike out when "they" attack "us."
Despite what Erin thinks, I do recognize the separation of Church and State, so I don't expect the U.S. to adopt Christian principles of non-violence. But I do think that, as a Christian, I might have something to say to my fellow Americans about being careful not to win the battle (kill Osama Bin Laden) but lose the war (radicalize the moderate sections of the Muslim world).
FCB
P.S.
Since this is hell, I just want to add that you war-mongering bastards can kiss my ass.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
from Scot
First, your post was nonresponsive in that it failed to offer any of the requested proof. You might have at least included some invalid and easily disproven "evidence" to support your position. In failing to do so, you appear to be both silly and boring.
Second, you do not seem to understand the concept of causation. Even if the western nations are guilty of failure to attempt prevention of your list of maladies (a proposition which is far from accurate), they are in no way the cause of the problems. Inadequate food supplies cause malnutrition. Shitting in the stream causes dirty water which, in turn, causes diarhea. Lack of schooling or lack of interest cause illiteracy. Even if you look at the causes of the inadequate food supply, lack of proper sanitation and absence of schools, you will find local, rather than western, causes.
In summary, keep your angst to yourself. I am not the cause of the world's problems.
I'm sorry. I was under the impression that some people here actually cared about the state of the world. Quite clearly you don't give a fuck, to use your parlance.
Simply having a roof over your head, clean water to drink, sanitation and decent food puts you in a minority in the world. I am willing to bet that most of you have a university education (as I do) putting you into a smaller bracket. Most of you drive a car. Most of you own a fridge, a TV, take foreign holidays, etc. You are in a minority of a few hundred million people, as I am. Now. The fact is that this small group of people use over 75% of the worlds resources.
And don't give me that rubbish that somehow people who get sick from poverty is their fault. Who exactly is it that wants cheap consumer goods? Who is it that over the last 30 years has paid consistantly less for raw materials, year on year. Who is it that is getting fat whilst the world dies?
The average european uses over five times the resources of the average indian. I don't know the figures for the americans, but I'm sure it is something similar.
Scot, your post makes me sick. How dare you accuse people living in absolute poverty of causing their own problems. Sure corrupt governments have hold much of the blame, but who was it who held up the corrupt regimes? Who sold them arms when they should have been selling medicine? Its all very well sitting there in your blasted ivory tower, but the fact is that you and I are to blame for the world's problems. Not taking responsiblity is like living all the poor up and urinating all over them.
Have you ever been to a poor community? In fact have you ever moved outside of your front room? I doubt you have travelled very far because you are plainly ignorant. The majority of people in this world do not live in tree lined avenues watching wrestling on TVs and motoring around the city with all their mates. Wake up and smell the coffee.
[Preview post is your friend, your only friend.]
[ 18. November 2002, 22:11: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
hatless, my sig line isn't a joke. I mean it very sincerely. There are people who bring nothing to the conversation and would do the world a favor if they'd just shut their freakin' traps.
We've been here once before, haven't we, Erin, with you telling me to shut up. On that occasion I continued by asking And what if I don't?
Partly this was to stay within the playground level of discourse, and partly it was an attempt to press the question. What, actually, might happen if I don't stop? What might happen if the people who disagree with you aren't put off by your offensive style? What might happen if they aren't diverted by your constant 'point of order' tactics?
One of those Freudian psychiatrists you more credulous cousins are so fond of would find this block very interesting.
Just what might happen and why is it so scary?
(I'm not, you'll realise, expecting a sensible answer, not even a Hellish type sensible answer.)
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I thought this wasn't about me, hatless. And, to turn this around, it's not always about you, either.
Louise answered your question in the other thread, but just to recap: you continue to look like a blithering moron. Can I shut you up? No, but that doesn't affect my fervent prayer that you will. And I will tell you to as often as I damn well please. Don't like it? Tough shit. Deal. Or, better yet, read the introduction to the board.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
So Nosmo, now that you have given us a guilt trip, do you care to suggest how we are supposed to go about "fixing" the world? You must have all the answers, especially seeing as you are so bitter against your state of life... I mean, man, if you really wanted to alleviate things, maybe you should've gone to live in the slums rather than getting an education... Or did your nice rich respectable daddy pay for that?
It seems to me that rather than being grateful for what we have, too many middle class folks spend their time feeling guilty. I am not advocating slave labour or taking advantage of poorer countries. But I think it is rather naive to blame the west solely for the problems of the third world.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Nosmo, the fact that I own a refrigerator does not compel people on the other side of the world to shit in a stream which other people use as a water supply.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Moo, that's a straw man and you know it. Perhaps you might like to go to Christian Aid's web site to discover how western policies do have negative impact on poor countries. It's a bit more complicated than your straw man version.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
Hello, Nunc Dimittis,
I think you do have a point about us not always being grateful enough for what we have, I'm sure I take a lot of what I have for granted. I can also feel a bit guilty about having so much more than so many other people in the world, but guilt isn't very helpful.
Not all the problems are caused by us in "the West" either. Some of the problems are, though. I think Nosmo does have a poiint. My lifestyle does affect people in distant parts of the world, wouldn't you agree? Do you not think we should be a bit more thoughtful about how our lives affect others and perhaps do what we can, to persuade governments and large profit-hungry companies to change those practices which are most detrimental to people in the Third World? Often we cannot do much, but I think we have to remember that it takes many very small drops of water to fill an ocean, so we must not despair that we cannot do much, but just do the little we can do.
I certainly feel that Jesus taught that we must look to see what we can do as individuals for the poor, the suffering and the marginalised, and now we live in a "global village" we can affect lives much further afield than we once could.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
quote:
Posted by Erin
Can I shut you up? No, but that doesn't affect my fervent prayer that you will.
My God doesn't answer that sort of prayer.
Seriously, this is the nub of the problem. It's not Americans as a group who are the problem. It's not the Brits who are always telling the Americans that they deserve the world's hatred. No not either of these. Just people who won't listen or discuss. People who have no time for another's alternative point of view.
This is what ends up causing conflict in the world, including terrorism.
Yeah yeah yeah.... you cant expect reasoned debate....!
Go on. Hide behind that one again, slag everyone off, because you know if you did discuss properly you might have to change your way of thinking.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
"So gosh-darned earnest about all the wrong things that you just want to give 'em all a swirly in the girls' room" pretty much sums up my feelings towards some of the contributors to this thread.
Bonzo, I am not interested in hearing about the sins of the US. That isn't the point of this thread. The point of this thread is "HOLY FUCKING SHIT", to borrow a phrase from The Onion. Why you can't just let that be is beyond any human comprehension. You cannot just sit back and let other people be hurt and angry and scared. OH NO, because that would require that you deal with real human emotions that aren't neat and tidy and don't adhere to the western guilt complex. Instead, we get treated to post after post of you being pretentious, self-righteous, and holier-than-thou. God, you are such a hypocrite that it just about makes my eyes bleed to read what you post.
People not listening can be attributed to some conflict. People being evil bastards accounts for the rest -- about 95%.
I will firmly believe til my dying day that people who want to kill others just because of where they live, what color skin they have or who they fuck are sick, evil sons of bitches. You may feel very comfortable making excuses for them (you obviously do, given your posts on this thread) -- I think your apologetics are a sign of gross disconnect with reality. I also believe that people who are quite willing to die in order to kill me cannot be changed through eternal manifestations of peace, love and soul. They are, by definition, INSANE. I don't care about changing their minds. I just want them stopped. And if I had a crystal ball and knew, beyond a reasonable doubt, that none of these bastards were going to commit another act of terrorism again, I would be happy to let them rot in whichever cave they're inhabiting today.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by logician:
Bongo, I'm glad to hear it isn't. Truly. I would assume if it were widespread, it would come to your attention.
I have encountered several from Durham, and half-a-dozen from London with that view, and that parallels the more radical college towns here in the US -- Ann Arbor, Berkeley, Cambridge. In those places the common opinion is as described above your post.
What I more frequently hear is not the full-throated condemnation by the radicals, but the milk-and-water version of the same thing, which spends seven seconds saying Of course I don't support terrorism but... and then spends seven minutes criticising Bush, the US, and Israel. I don't know how common that is in the UK, but I imagine you have encountered at least some.
Perhaps, as in other things, the more extreme are the people who make the news, and thus give a false impression of their real numbers.
I'm awfully glad to hear it isn't, too. Naturally, the most vocal idiots get the most press, and of course, many of them write for newspaper editorial pages as well (and not just the the E.U.), so that doesn't help. It also doesn't help that people like Nosmo are spending a great deal of time on these very boards essentially suggesting that the United States is responsible for poverty in the third world and the environmental destruction of the universe (slight exaggeration, but only slight) really doesn't help, either. Though in fairness, I'll note that he's evenhandedly included all the middle class, including those in Europe (one presumes) in his last salvo.
I've got a feeling that we just aren't getting any farther with this thread. The positions have rigidly polarized, and now that the patronization has started, I've lost my taste for it. Have fun!
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider:
Moo, that's a straw man and you know it. Perhaps you might like to go to Christian Aid's web site to discover how western policies do have negative impact on poor countries. It's a bit more complicated than your straw man version.
Karl, I did not say that the people in poor countries are responsible for all their problems. On the other hand, it is true that if people refrain from polluting streams with human waste, there will be less illness and death.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
No, but you did point out that owning a fridge doesn't make people shit in the stream, implying that someone was saying it did.
It's as Laura says. Everyone's too polarised now. Anything the Bleeding Heart Liberals(TM) say will be "America's to blame for everything", and anything the Bloodthirsty Warmongers(TM) say will be "Bomb the bastards and hold a party".
Note - both the party names above are ironic.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Oh, and I meant to add, I don't think anyone's presented any evidence that people crapping in drinking water is a major cause of disease in the third world. I have a suspicion it isn't. The water is unsafe enough without people crapping in it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Karl and Laura are right, though I am SERIOUSLY considering changing my title from Projects Editor to Bloodthirsty Warmonger™. It just has a better ring.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Nosmo, if you could pull your head out of your ass for a moment, I’d like you to explain to the class how you arrived at the conclusion that I don’t give a fuck about the state of the world? Perhaps when you have finished with that assignment, you can tell us why you believe that one should only care about problems for which one is personally responsible? Assuming that you won’t pull your head out of your ass anytime soon, let’s look at some of your lesser foolishness in the meantime.
You whined that people are poor because we in the west use up too many of the world’s resources. For that to even approach being a rational complaint you need to establish that (1) the resources we use are being taken away from the poor people, (2) the poor people are not being compensated or are not selling the resources voluntarily and (3) the resources in question could be used by the poor people in some meaningful way. Got any evidence here? Didn’t think so.
It is either manipulative or stupid of you to go on about the disproportionate consumption without even giving a tip to the hat to disproportionate production. If those poor, starving, diarrheic people are to have improved lives, where would the food come from? How about the farming technology and equipment? Medical technology and drugs? Transportation systems? Drilling and mining technology? In case you didn’t notice, all of the marvels of modern life to which we want the Third World to have access exist as a direct result of western use of resources. Apparently nobody ever taught you that you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
You do surprise me on one point, Nosmo. You seem to be suggesting that we march around the world overthrowing dictators and installing new governments. But I guess you have a point – if we are responsible for them being in power, then it is up to us to go get rid of them. What? That’s not what you meant? Then perhaps you should think about what you are writing.
Finally, let me offer you some friendly advice. Don’t presume to lecture me (or anyone else) about what I care about, where I’ve been and what I know. You just end up looking like an idiot in public.
And Karl? You are right about the straw man. The problem is that it was set up by Nosmo, not Moo. What Moo posted was a near perfect response to the Nosmo’s drivel. May I suggest that if you have a specific point to make, posting a link to the actual information instead of the whole website might be helpful? I got bored and gave up after a handful of unproductive clicks.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider:
Oh, and I meant to add, I don't think anyone's presented any evidence that people crapping in drinking water is a major cause of disease in the third world. I have a suspicion it isn't. The water is unsafe enough without people crapping in it.
One of the few accurate things Nosmo posted was that contaminated water supplies kill more people than just about anything else. Granted, Crapping in the stream is the ne plus ultra of improper sanitation. Sometimes the contamination is more indirect, but it amounts to the same thing.
Here is an article on the subject from the website of Lifewater, one of my favorite charitable organizations.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
No, Nosmo did not at any point state that having a fridge makes people shit in the stream. Moo's response was therefore a straw man. Nosmo, unfortunately, did not make clear what the links between the West and third world poverty actually are.
You want specifics on Christian Aid's site? Here's a link to some Bleeding Heart Liberal Pinko Commie Drivel on the site, about trade. You may find it enlightening. Or a load of drivel, if you prefer. As a registered Bleeding Heart Pinko Commie Bastard, Christian Aid is my pet charity.
The way people are responding to each other on this thread convinces me that we are all responding to what we want the other side to have said (in order to crush them with devastating logic) rather than what they actually did say. Or, in a sadly large number of cases, probably meant to say. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Erm... so what about the number of countries that produce more food for export than they use for internal consumption? I don't know about the USA, but we certainly are dependant on many countries from around the world for the products we use. Many of those countries have internal problems with food production distribution and consumption.
As a matter of fact, many countries are encouraged by macro economic policies to increase exports to gain money to pay off debts. As a result, countries grow cash crops in preference to food for internal consumption.
Perhaps you would care to share what qualifications you have to make the statements you do. I have postgraduate qualifications in soil management so I have some basis for the statements I make.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
No specific examples or facts which can be examined. Shifting the focus away from the issue at hand and onto "qualifications". You are really getting the hang of this Hell thing, Nosmo!
By the way, is "postgraduate qualifications" a code phrase for "I'll finish up my thesis one of these days"?
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
OK tell me what facts you want.
As a matter of fact I completed and passed my postgraduate degree.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
I have been choking on my coffee God help me, laughing a this thread since there comes a point you either lose it or laugh...
My Rev. granda Fred and my grandma Ruth, God rest their souls, were total pacifists to my knowledge. My Rev. grandpa Fred joined the military as a chaplain, even though he was a member of the peace party in the USA, and he also helped run orphanges in Germany, France and later on..Puerto Rico (where my dad got a love for music like Brazil 66 and still hasn't stopped torturing us all with it to this day).
I respect my grandpa because he as we say here...put his money where his mouth was. He didn't lecture everyone how to live their lives, he just showed them by example.
I respect people who live their lives by their principals. If you are against hurting animals, you'd better not wear leather. If you want to blather on about how the USA uses too much water..oil...electricity...etc...then go live in a shotgun shack out in timbauck too. Only then will you make sense.
Look, does anyone remember "Feed the World...let them know it's Christmas Time" with Sir Bob Geldoff? If not, then I will have to explain to you why I brought that up. Very sad result AFTER he brought all that food... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Bongo
Shipmate
# 778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by logician:
Bongo, I'm glad to hear it isn't. Truly. I would assume if it were widespread, it would come to your attention.
I have encountered several from Durham, and half-a-dozen from London with that view... What I more frequently hear is not the full-throated condemnation by the radicals, but the milk-and-water version of the same thing, which spends seven seconds saying Of course I don't support terrorism but... and then spends seven minutes criticising Bush, the US, and Israel.
Bloody hell. If people really do say that to you then they're being very tactless.
For the record, I'm a moderate bleeding-heart liberal commie pinko bastard. I have a subscription to the New Statesman (classic left-wing current affairs magazine) and read the Guardian (drippy leftie liberal newspaper) every day. I even went on the anti-war march in London in September. Verily, I am a GLL.
I am full of criticism for Bush, and the Israeli government, but that is nothing compared to my loathing for terrorism. (And sometimes I can't believe I even have to spell that out.) I honestly think I'm a normal, MOR liberal in this regard - as far as I can judge, from the editorials I read and the people I talk to. Of course, you might regard this as a "milk-and-water version of the same thing", in which case: well, words fail me.
Peace and lurve, people.
Bongo ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!" ~ Dr Strangelove
Posts: 492 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
quote:
You want specifics on Christian Aid's site? Here's a link to some Bleeding Heart Liberal Pinko Commie Drivel on the site, about trade. You may find it enlightening. Or a load of drivel, if you prefer. As a registered Bleeding Heart Pinko Commie Bastard, Christian Aid is my pet charity.
Mine too.
From Bleeding Heart Commie Liberal Bastard Fuckwit to another: No, they won't find it enlightening because they'll think it's Bleeding Heart Pinko Commie Drivel. There's no talking to these people.
Now what they'll tell you to do, if you want a reasoned discussion, is to start a thread in purgatory. But, guess what! Someone will deliberately misinterpret your Commie Drivel over there too. Things will get too heated, so it'll get booted down to hell as quick as anything.
You actually can't have a reasoned debate with these people, Not here or in purgatory, and not, it seems, in real life.
The only way to deal with these Bloodthirsty Warmongers is to shoot 'em and bomb 'em. Haven't you understood that yet? Or maybe we could get a couple of passenger jet planes...
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess [green]:
Look, does anyone remember "Feed the World...let them know it's Christmas Time" with Sir Bob Geldoff? If not, then I will have to explain to you why I brought that up. Very sad result AFTER he brought all that food...
Maybe I shouldn't admit it, but yes I do remember "Feed the World". I have a feeling the proceeds weren't handled in the wisest of manners, unfortunately, but perhaps you would like to explain more fully what you meant, so younger people and people like me who don't fully remember will be in a better position to answer your point.
If you're trying to say that all food aid is a waste, I think that would be an exaggeration, but I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. Please explain yourself.
I agree with you that we should attempt to live by our principles, and we shouldn't preach, but surely healthy discussion is a good thing.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
I want to make clear that I am not bashing Americans and am well aware that we in Europe are also to blame for unfair trade laws. I'm not trying to say that any individual is necessarily to blame, but I have just received notification of this report, which explains how rice farmers in Haiti are losing their livlihoods because of cheap imports of American rice.
I'm not sure Muracin Claircin was the best example as he doesn't seems to have helped his situation, but if you can ignore his own less than wise actions for a minute, I hope you can see that the liberalisation of trade laws, presumably for the benefit to us in the West is making things even more difficult for struggling Third World economies.
You can find the report here
If you have any real evidence why it might not be entirely true I would certainly take that into consideration. I have to rely on what I read and am told, so am happy to be corrected if necessary.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
[liberal on liberal rant]
You know...it seems some of us liberals have a tough time when some of our more conservative fellow Christians tell us to go take a flying leap off of Wigan pier.
To which I state: Look fellow liberal, if you really give a darn about the rights of people, then you have to be willing to take the rants of those who disagree with you. And...if you insist on taking a relatively unpolitical thread and shoe horning a liberal agenda/view into it, then you got to expect to get slagged. If you can't take the fact your slagging exists.... Get off the net wussises. So...somebody called you a name. So what. Geez...didn't you people have siblings. That's what brothers/sisters do.
Conservatism happens...life goes on.
Oh, and another thing. We liberals are just as likely as conservatives to think that everybody who disagrees with us on some point is automatically diametrically opposed with us on most issues. There is a heck of a lot of grey out there. My suggestion is we wallow in the greyness because...that is where the Holy Spirit is working. Deal with it fellow liberals.
[/liberal on liberal rant]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bongo
Shipmate
# 778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
...yes I do remember "Feed the World". I have a feeling the proceeds weren't handled in the wisest of manners, unfortunately...
Here's a random depressing statistic: the total amount of money that Live Aid raised is equal to the amount that Africa repays in debt every WEEK. (or is it every day? Anyway it's still depressing)
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"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!" ~ Dr Strangelove
Posts: 492 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider:
I don't think anyone's presented any evidence that people crapping in drinking water is a major cause of disease in the third world. I have a suspicion it isn't. The water is unsafe enough without people crapping in it.
Scot has now, with the link to the Lifewater article. The first three water-borne diseases it lists are "strongly related to unsanitary excreta disposal."
Unsanity excreta disposal is probably also the reason this thread is going the way it is.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Bongo
Shipmate
# 778
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Posted
OgtheDim: fair point, but in my defence, I only got involved in this thread because Laura's mischaracterisation of European liberals made me angry. Nosmo (and Qlib) 'started it' (hijacking the thread, I mean).
Getting back to the spirit of the OP: did any non-Brits among you hear about the three men who were arrested for (allegedly) planning a poisoned gas attack on the London tube?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I'm scared. Shit scared for my friends who live in London. It's not a question of if, but when.
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"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!" ~ Dr Strangelove
Posts: 492 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I think it's really hysterical that a bunch of liberals hijack a thread and then get all pissy and intolerant and wonder why they get no responses to their hijacks.
Yours ever,
Erin (neither a liberal NOR a conservative, thank you very much)
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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