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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Never enough
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marmot
Mountain mammal
# 479
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Posted
Rant on
After decades of living below our means to support starving children, homeless, handicapped, victims of natural disasters, international causes, ecological causes, I GIVE UP. Cripes, if I thought it would help to wear dishtowels like Mother Teresa and poop out in the back yard I?d have done it by now, but you know what? It won't help. As a family, we don?t practice self-denial for congratulations. But it would be nice if the rest of the world would just get off our backs for a week or two.
Does it ever occur to anyone that Americans have families to support on limited resources, too? That we?d like to take time off from saving the world once in a while to enjoy a picnic and a ball game with the kids? To be thankful and enjoy our blessings without feeling guilty all the time because someone else doesn?t have the same?
The expectation seems to be that if there is a problem anywhere in the world, it is the responsibility of the USA to fix it, but without any military presence and leaving no trace of our own culture behind. Who pays for it all? Me, and a million others like me, who watch lives and resources go down the tubes, then endure the snide remarks from the rest of the world because we "don't care about anybody but ourselves."
I am sick, sick, sick of trying to care for the whole world at the expense of my own family and getting nothing but grief for it.
Rant off
[ 10. March 2003, 01:04: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"
Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
A brave and interesting post, Marmot. It is strange that I assumed it was always GB which was the 'mug' country but obviously that depends on where you live and the propaganda you are fed.
I am a very generous person, but I do get fed up when I hear that countries which have famines, etc are embroiled in yet another war. It doesn't take much understanding to realise where the money really gets spent.
Where I differ from you, though, is that I still believe that the poorest western family is still better off than the famine victims in many parts of the world. Yes they have too many children, but that is because so many of them die. The children don't ask to be born, but once they are born they have as much right to be alleviated from suffering as the rest of us. Ideally with better life chances and freely available contraception this will one day change, but this all takes time..........
I have come to the idea of a balance. Yes I do give some of my money to Christian Aid and similar charities. But I don't pauper myself in the process because it would be too disheartening. And I make sure I also support local charities as well, where you are more likely to see that your money does make a difference.
Am I the only person to get disheartened, though, when you donate, say, £10 to be bombarded with junk mail from the charity, the cost of which probably amounts to the total of the donation?! ![[Flaming]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
...then endure the snide remarks from the rest of the world because we "don't care about anybody but ourselves."
My reaction to this is threefold:
1. A hearty "fuck you".
2. Noting that person's name in the Book of Morons (which will, btw, be cross-referenced with the Book of Life come Judgment Day, I have assurances from God on this one).
3. Thank God that our plot to keep xenophobic bigots out of the US is working so wonderfully.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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marmot
Mountain mammal
# 479
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Posted
quote:
Where I differ from you, though, is that I still believe that the poorest western family is still better off than the famine victims in many parts of the world.
We don't differ on this part, Chorister. However, I often feel as though, in the eyes of the world, unless I'm living on rice and UniMix and drinking dirty water in solidarity with the third world, my standard of living is too high and I don't care enough about other people. You and I know that's not really how it works.
My point is that I'm tired of being treated like some greedy bastard just because of where I happen to have been born.
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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"
Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
I think Marmot has a point. America gets blamed for all the world's ills.
I'd rather blame Canada. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Hardy har har.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
...I often feel as though, in the eyes of the world, unless I'm living on rice and UniMix and drinking dirty water in solidarity with the third world, my standard of living is too high and I don't care enough about other people.... I'm tired of being treated like some greedy bastard just because of where I happen to have been born.
A virtual high five and a tip of the winged helmet to you, Marmot. I know exactly what you mean. (And I'm tired of it too.)
Rossweisse // who tithes, but is trying to educate and rear two children on limited means as well
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Marmot - couldn't agree more. Much admiration and respect to you for your sincere efforts and so on.
Chorister - complete echo. If one particular charity sends me one more request with its cutesie "handwritten" notes which probably cost a loada cash to produce I will begin a campaign of hate mailing them.
Prob is that a lot of charity is systemically flawed. It's like trying to cure cancer with sticking plasters: it's a noble gesture but what's needed is something to happen inside. Giving people enough food for a day (or even a year) or even that whole "teach a man to fish" stuff is all very well but if we're (by which I mean the Big Evil West collectively, which I know is a gross generalisation) at the same time draining poor countries' economies through unfair trade rules and collecting debt then real, lasting change just can't happen.
In addition, I see why you get really hacked off (quite rightly) with being told "we're all selfish tight gits" when clearly you're not and you live very sacrificially as a result. But I would suggest you are almost unique! So many of the Christians I know need to hear that very message, because they really are selfish and tight.
Having said all that, we can still make a difference (I firmly believe and hope). One way I have responded is by giving more to charities who campaign on these issues rather than just feeding people, e.g. (for Britain) Christian Aid and Oxfam. Obviously voting and praying and campaigning may make a difference too. I believe in giving sacrificially but that's very easy for me as I don't have a family to support, so it's only me making the sacrifices - I know I'd find it very different if I was married with several children to feed and bring up as well as I could.
In the meantime, the envelopes keep pouring through our doors... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Aardvark
Shipmate
# 2295
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeanD:
Prob is that a lot of charity is systemically flawed. It's like trying to cure cancer with sticking plasters: it's a noble gesture but what's needed is something to happen inside. Giving people enough food for a day (or even a year) or even that whole "teach a man to fish" stuff is all very well but if we're (by which I mean the Big Evil West collectively, which I know is a gross generalisation) at the same time draining poor countries' economies through unfair trade rules and collecting debt then real, lasting change just can't happen.
In addition, I see why you get really hacked off (quite rightly) with being told "we're all selfish tight gits" when clearly you're not and you live very sacrificially as a result. But I would suggest you are almost unique! So many of the Christians I know need to hear that very message, because they really are selfish and tight.
Having said all that, we can still make a difference (I firmly believe and hope). One way I have responded is by giving more to charities who campaign on these issues rather than just feeding people, e.g. (for Britain) Christian Aid and Oxfam. Obviously voting and praying and campaigning may make a difference too. I believe in giving sacrificially but that's very easy for me as I don't have a family to support, so it's only me making the sacrifices - I know I'd find it very different if I was married with several children to feed and bring up as well as I could.
(
Well said. There's little point in just throwing money at the occasional charity out of guilt whilst not caring two hoots about where you shop for your clothes and groceries. Many Christians groan on about third world poverty yet can't be bothered to buy fairly traded coffee because it's a bit more expensive than their regular brand. We don't pay nearly enough attention to where and how the goods are produced that make our lives run so smoothly,and I'm as guilty as anyone, especially when it comes to clothes.
Posts: 618 | From: just outside the M25 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Clay_Pigeon
Mathematics
# 2516
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeanD:
In addition, I see why you get really hacked off (quite rightly) with being told "we're all selfish tight gits" when clearly you're not and you live very sacrificially as a result. But I would suggest you are almost unique! So many of the Christians I know need to hear that very message, because they really are selfish and tight.
I don't think it is really that simple though. At first glance, it seems like the most Christian thing to do to only care for your bare minimum (maybe a little more) and give the rest away. But what happens when the car breaks down and dies, the roof starts leaking, the dryer rebels, and the hot water heater goes bad -- all in one month? (Note that something cataclysmic like this will likely happen every 3rd month).
I'm think there is a middle of the road here, which actually yields more $$$ for charity in the long run. Save some, give some, and live below your means. It wasn't until I really started saving money that I found I had money to give. I've given more in the past year than I ever have before. It seems like every day presents itself with a chance to give...and I can take advantage of those chances because I know I have the money to do it. Some of the most generous people I know are also the "tightest" with their money.
But beyond that, it's not like money is the only thing keeping the 3rd world back, or even the main thing keeping the 3rd world back. My understanding is that political instability (and tyranny) does more to cause a shortage of resources than anything else. The degree to which "The West" (tm) is to blame for this instablity varies....but in most cases if show me a 3rd world country, and I'll show you one with a great deal of political unrest and upheaval. Perhaps the best donation is a little bit of time for advocacy mixed with a little bit of money.
Castigating someone for "not giving everything they possibily could" seems shortsighted to me. It's kinda like a being lectured for not volunteering because you've managed to carve one hour of free time out of your schedule. "Hey, you have that free hour" seems like a good argument, but doesn't take the long run into account.
-T
Posts: 599 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Mar 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
For some years now, Mrs tomb's and my favorite non-church charity has been the Heifer Project, through which you purchase farm animals and other agricultural products suitable for 3rd world use. So much money will buy a chicken or a duck; more will get you a goat or sheep; and for a big donation, you can get a cow or an ox.
They also have a sort of experimental farm down in Arkansas where they explore ways to improve subsistence farming methods. They always accept volunteers--particularly in the summer. Given the fact that it is always nine hundred degrees and two hundred percent humidity there, I figure they use it to separate the True Believers from the guilty yuppie libruls.
Mrs. tomb wanted to go down there herself and take me with her, but I pointed out that the heat would cause my scales to overheat; she always gets so vexed when I make her pour cups of cool water on them. So she figured she'd send the Offspring instead--sort of a token sacrifice of the firstborn. But I pointed out that he hadn't reproduced himself yet (that we know of), and it would probably be a good idea to hold off until we had some assurance that the genetic line would carry on for at least another generation. It would be a shame and tragedy if my beauty and intelligence couldn't be bequeathed to the Future.
All that being said, the Heifer Project is a way of making a difference for individuals, for families, and for villages. It's much nicer to know that you are helping people feed themselves and to develop a sustainable way of living.
[ 24. October 2002, 05:06: Message edited by: tomb ]
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
You're right, Marmot.
Rossweisse // one of the three who Get It
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
<snip!>...But I pointed out that he hadn't reproduced himself yet (that we know of), and it would probably be a good idea to hold off until we had some assurance that the genetic line would carry on for at least another generation. It would be a shame and tragedy if my beauty and intelligence couldn't be bequeathed to the Future.
That would be a darn shame since ... *ahem-song-comin'-on...* "What the world needs now, is more tombs, more tombs..." ![[Sunny]](graemlins/flowerface.gif) <-smiling at you tomb
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
It would be a shame and tragedy if my beauty and intelligence couldn't be bequeathed to the Future.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Fortunately for the Future, tomb's genes are tempered by those of Mrs. tomb, who is a lovely and gracious lady.
I hear you, marmot. I heard a stewardship sermon recently that actually did not resort to the "we're all so rich" line. It was very refreshing. I found that line particularly annoying when I had been out of work for a while and had just found a very inadequate job that would not help me pay the bills that mounted up after I got laid off.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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halibut
Shipmate
# 3115
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
My point is that I'm tired of being treated like some greedy bastard just because of where I happen to have been born.
*clears throat* (ahem)
Don't you think that millions of other people aren't tired of being treated like irrelevant basket cases because of where they happen to have been born?
Personally I'm sick of my tax money (off my limited salary paid in a devalued currency in a poor(ish) country) being used to subsidise the First World. How does that happen? By our running several excellent universities, many of whose graduates run off to first world careers as soon as they graduate. By having to fight hard not to have northern countries slap protective tarrifs against our export products while using every WTO mechanism to prevent us from doing similarly and staying just the right side of antidumping rules.
Yes, there's corruption, violence and stupidity everywhere. Not just in the South either.
I live on the border of suburbia and the inner city here. Every day that I'm home, I have about half a dozen people come to my door begging. They're not pictures in a charity brochure. They're people, they're here, and they have nothing, and no opportunity to make their lives better. Yes I get frustrated - it's really hard to make ends meet anyway without people constantly wanting to take, take, take. So what do you propose then?
I'm also sick and tired of First World people, who sit with an absurd proportion of the world's resources, whinging about being expected to share, as if it's all about personal guilt. It isn't. But the collective responsibility is real and cannot be run from.
Funny, I read a challenging part of Luke's gospel last night. The bit bout selling all of our goods and giving to the poor if we're to follow Christ. It's really hard, that. And I know I fail in it dismally. But there it is. Something to think about.
H
Posts: 59 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Troy - I do take your point, but I'm not talking about Christians who live at bare minimum subsistence level trying to support a family but those who have huge houses, drive extremely flash cars (of which they own two or three) and think nothing of taking three foreign holidays a year. (Maybe I just live in the wrong area and am the only one who knows these people...)
My problem with them is NOT that they haven't chucked everything away to abandon all responsibility and go and live in squalor - I don't think that is necessary or even effective as a means of fighting poverty. My problem is twofold: 1) They have sold out to the world's values and 2) their materialism blinds them to the plight of the poor so they don't think they need to do anything about it.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Well said, Halibut.
We're human all the time. We're children of one father all the time. We're under obligation all the time. I daresay the starving would like a break from being starving, now and again.
I don't think the poor countries expect the rich countries to solve all their problems - but they do expect us to stop contributing to some of them - and to treat them all more fairly.
Having said all that, I agree it's wrong for people to be oppressed by a sense of overwhelming (and futile) guilt. You do what you can and then let it go. But you have to do what you can.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
Marmot, I think you will find you are suffering from Top Nation Syndrome.
I well remember being told as a child, and subsequently, that all of the problems of the third world were caused by the British having an Empire.
That still comes up occasionally, but I have noticed (with some relief) that now that the USA is Top Nation, you get blamed instead!
I do not think there is a cure for this, unless some other nation takes over as top. Then, eventually, they will be attacked instead of you.
As for the duty to give to the poor, well, it's a duty, so do it. One of the really irritating things is that we're NOT supposed to make a big fuss about how much we do for others, so we are still going to take the flack for not doing it. It's a hard life...
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
I sympathise, Marmot, but I can see the other side too. All of us living in Western countries, not just the US, don't always realise how vast the chasm is between the rich and poor nations. We are in a tiny minorty of the earth's population that consumes a vast amount of the world's resources, and it isn't fair. So what can we do about it? The Gospels are full to bursting of stories of Jesus' teachings on the subject of the rich/poor divide. Without exception he said, those who have more have to give to those who had none. So I think we DO have to give and keep giving. Yes, it is irritating to be constantly blamed. But look at it from the poor countries' point of view. They are desperate. It's a matter of life and death for millions of people. The simple luxuries that we take for granted like heating in our homes, basic health care, constant running water are beyond the reach of most of the world's population. Can you blame them for doing anything in their power to redress the balance, and that includes making us feel a little bit guilty?
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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marmot
Mountain mammal
# 479
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
The simple luxuries that we take for granted like heating in our homes, basic health care, constant running water are beyond the reach of most of the world's population. Can you blame them for doing anything in their power to redress the balance, and that includes making us feel a little bit guilty?
No, actually, I blame them less than I blame people like you.
quote:
posted elswhere by sparrow:
It just goes to show how out of touch most Americans are with the rest of the world if they think that it's funny to celebrate the much more luxurious lifestyle they enjoy at the expense of the rest of the world. Do they STILL not understand that this kind of behaviour is one reason why the rest of the world dislikes them so much?
Don't ever assume that I, or others, take anything, running water, healthcare, issues of life and death, freedom, anything for granted. Don't assume that we only give money to starving orphans on charity brochures and not work on the root causes of worldwide poverty--including those causes here at home. Don't assume that you know what I and others do to achieve a fairer world--this is Hell and I don't owe you an itemized list. If we haven't solved the problem to your timetable and satisfaction, try putting all the energy you spend into yank-bashing into volunteering and see what happens.
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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"
Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
Ruth W, praying about your employment/money situation.
[now getting on with it...] I read an excerpt from an interview with that Danish scienctist that wrote the The Skeptical Environmentalist that more pollution comes from 3rd world countries than from affluent nations.
My friend Colleen is moving to Albania this January (pls pray for her if you feel led) to teach English fulltime (and be a missionary to the people there). It is definitly a 3rd world nation, she tells me, yet everyone has mobile phones. They now have indoor toilets and electricity. The biggest school they have there was started by American Missionaries, and the top gov't officials have gone there to study English (including the Albanian president).
My points? Well, everyone pollutes. What helps is helping up the standard of living in other countries, as many missionaries are doing and also people like Bono from U2 (what a babe! I love that guy!) who are doing all they can to have nations let go of money owed. We need to help them to help ourselves. I myself am not moved to be a missionary but I do give money to those causes when I can (like to my friend Colleen).
I get disgusted when I read about protestors of pollution who DRIVE CARS TO A RALLY (like an SUV one time...the people caught on interview said "this is the only vehicle that will hold all our stuff and we regret using it" or something like that). I respect people if they actually DON'T DRIVE A CAR or RIDE IN ONE if they really feel none of us should use one. Also, many people against animals being eaten wear LEATHER JACKETS ???
Anyway, the USA is not perfect, but we are definitly not polluting the world as much as many claim...plus we do BUY our oil (and make other countries in the Middle East rich). We do produce our OWN electricity (albeit with contreversial nucluar methods most of the time). We do gather our own water. If we were able to get to more land to dig it up (like Alaska) we would be less dependent on the Middle East for oil..but then we would harm our environment more.
My 2 cents.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Marmot - would you see yourself as an average american? I mean, do you find that many of your friends/colleagues etc take your sorts of attitudes? People of your mentality aren't all that common and whilst yankbashing is horrible, racist and completely unfair to those sincere and lovely americans (to which group most americans I have met belongs) but at the same time folk like your president and policies like his don't exactly do wonders for your (pl) reputation.
At the same time I know several american christians who would never vote anything except republican cos they feel they have to vote "christianly".
So whilst I see your point about how gross it is that people blame America as if every American is responsible surely there can be little doubt that leading Americans have and still are responsible for many major global problems (and thereby so are members of the public who elect them), just as the problems caused by the withdrawal of the British empire screwed up many countries which are still trying to resolve things today.
That's why we need a political see-change rather than poverty. Vive la revolution!!
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
DOH! by poverty in my last post, I did of course mean charity. :idiot:
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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marmot
Mountain mammal
# 479
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sean D:
People of your mentality aren't all that common...
How do you know? Don't forget for a second that GB Jr. was elected by the slimmest of margins under disputed circumstances.
For every knucklehead elected official, there is a Peace Corp, Habitat for Humanity, Heifer Project (mentioned by Tomb. Check it out! an extraordinary worthy organization) not to mention innumerable smaller operations who focus on a single issue: clean water, vision preservation, landmines, or alternative fuel and food sources.
It is just easier and more fun to assume things about others than it is to actually get to know them. Heaven forbid we might actually have similar goals.
I'll be back later. Right now I have things to do.
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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"
Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Know what Sean D? I agree with just about every word marmot wrote and I voted for GWB.
How about if you, Sparrow, and the rest of the people like you get down off of your high horses? Maybe then you will realize that those who don't agree with you on methodology are not necessarily the cause of all of the problems.
Here's another news flash - poor countries are the source of many of their own problems. Not GWB. Not Republicans. Not Americans. The biggest problems come from the home-grown tinpots and warlords in combination with self-defeating cultural forces. No amount of US charity or politicking can overcome those problems. As marmot pointed out in the OP, it's idiotic to suggest that we should be able to change those forces without leaving a mark on the country.
So how about giving those of us who are doing the best we can a break? (and that's most of us) We give what we can. We do what we can. And in the end, it's never enough.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
People of your mentality aren't all that common and whilst yankbashing is horrible, racist and completely unfair to those sincere and lovely americans (to which group most americans I have met belongs) but at the same time folk like your president and policies like his don't exactly do wonders for your (pl) reputation.
YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.
If it's horrible, then STOP JUSTIFYING it. Either it's wrong or it isn't.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess [green]:
Ruth W, praying about your employment/money situation.
No need - sorry if I was misleading. The whole unemployment/no money episode was several years ago. As was a particularly icky "we're all so rich" sermon.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sean D:
At the same time I know several american christians who would never vote anything except republican cos they feel they have to vote "christianly".
There are millions of American Christians. So knowing "several" is not exactly grounds for making any kind of judgement about us.
This American Christian votes Green, but is driven to agreeing with Erin, Scot and duchess - all on one thread.
Nothing like a little US-bashing before lunch ...
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
The simple luxuries that we take for granted like heating in our homes, basic health care, constant running water are beyond the reach of most of the world's population. Can you blame them for doing anything in their power to redress the balance, and that includes making us feel a little bit guilty?
No, actually, I blame them less than I blame people like you.
Ouch! And this time I did start by saying "I do sympathise ...." and I do. I thought
I was careful to stress several times that this is something affecting ALL the Western nations,
not just America.
And I'd like to know your thinking behind your comment about blaming the poor countries
for their plight less than people like me? I'm afraid you've got me totally puzzled there.
And I'm not a yank-basher- but I don't believe that America should be immune from
criticism. The UK is one of your best friends and allies - if your best friends can't offer
some honest criticism, who can?
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Conciliatory tone all round - I was out of order.
Erin: sorry to get your hackles up. I know you could easily eat six or seven newbies like me for breakfast so I'm wary of challenging you. But I would like to know what in my post justified bashing americans. I certainly disagree with some americans and said so but this doesn't amount to bashing america as a nation or saying it's ok. If I did say something that suggested such, sorry again.
Marmot and Scot: I apologise. I was judging americans on the basis of the people I actually know (i.e. brits) among whom someone like Marmot really would be pretty rare. Obviously there are millions of concerned americans doing a brilliant job on this issue, such as those projects Marmot mentioned. Had a look at the heifer website which sounded great.
As for the methodology point Scot, of course I accept that one might be politically very different to me but just as concerned about the poor etc. Sorry if I sounded like I was on a high horse but if you read my first post you'll see I actually agreed *very* strongly with Marmot about being able chill out on the issue. Of course, that doesn't mean I do agree on the method as I really am convinced that voting Tory (in Britain) doesn't help the poor. Obviously if GWB makes a real difference on the issue I will eat more humble pie but I'm not convinced he will.
RuthW: point taken and again sorry. Obviously I didn't intend to imply that because I know a few American Christians who think so that that's what all of you think. I guess my point was that this shows what *some* genuinely do think and simply that I disagreed. I should have phrased a lot more carefully when posting in hell.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Sparrow, you have a reading comprehension problem. She's not blaming you for their plight, she's saying she's sick of people like you blaming US for it. Get it yet?
And Sean: if blatant anti-US sentiment is wrong, then DON'T JUSTIFY it by saying "well, you can't really blame them, after all, look at [fill in the blank]". Geez, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. If it's wrong, then DO NOT post along those lines.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
It's a great big pendulum, back and forth: Today's first world is tomorrow's casualty waiting to happen. *thinks he hears ticking...is something ticking?*
Leaving aside the issue of whether the habits of the first world are *just* there's a whole lot of consumption going on in the first world which is just foolish because it isn't sustainable.
Water, fossil fuels, etc...that stuff
The original post could have been better - and by better I simply mean it could have been more creative.....sounded too much like whining to me.
I've little time for people justifying conspicuous consumption and stilted social structures because they also give to charities, support little Koko in Malawi and intend to leave a certain amount of their estate to the SPCA
Reality is, if you've got it - somebody wants it. If you build something big somebody wants to knock it down. This is true. It's also true that we're more accurately viewed by others than we are by ourselves.
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal QC
(beginning his holidays tonight!!!)
and yes - it is Canada's fault.
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
originally posted by Marmot
quote:
The expectation seems to be that if there is a problem anywhere in the world, it is the responsibility of the USA to fix it, but without any military presence and leaving no trace of our own culture behind.
Is that the expectation? Holy Shit! You guys are gonna have to try a little harder. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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marmot
Mountain mammal
# 479
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
The original post could have been better - and by better I simply mean it could have been more creative.....sounded too much like whining to me.
Hey, Gramps, sorry you thought my purpose in life is to entertain you. Maybe the concept of a Rant in Hell has fallen into one of your brain divots.
I've little time for people justifying conspicuous consumption and stilted social structures because they also give to charities, support little Koko in Malawi and intend to leave a certain amount of their estate to the SPCA
That's nice, but what does that have to do with the discussion? You don't know the first thing about how the rest of us live except that we all have access to a computer.
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Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"
Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
posted by Marmot
quote:
After decades of living below our means to support starving children, homeless, handicapped, victims of natural disasters, international causes, ecological causes, I GIVE UP
Listen dickweed: For somebody who's apparently given up after a lifetime of sending his or her pennies off to the starving, the halt and the lame, the flooded, the bombed and you seem to have an awful lot of steam left. Were you expecting to be congratulated? Build a windmill, asshole....
I'm all for rants. Just don't like whining.
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Okay, how is it that just about EVERYBODY on this thread has missed the point?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
Well Erin, most of the conflicts pitting the first world in general and the U.S.A. in particular against the other parts of the globe have something to do with a tremendous level of consumption of the world's resources and a feeling of entitlement to those resources.
Building a windmill wouldn't be completely beside the point....
Can't see how consoling Marmot would help
Raspberry Rabbit
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Raspberry Rabbit, are you reading-impaired or just stupid? marmot is probably too polite, so I'll save her the trouble of telling you to go fuck yourself.
Nobody cares about your congratulations, nobody cares about entertaining you, nobody cares about your moralizing. Get over yourself.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Sean,
Thanks for posting the URL for the Heifer Project. I had been planning to edit my post to include it, but you beat me to the punch.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
ARGH!!!!
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
marmot is probably too polite, so I'll save her the trouble of telling you to go fuck yourself.
Scot, this is very chivalrous of you, to save marmot (and me) the trouble.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
[tangent]
quote:
Chorister: Am I the only person to get disheartened, though, when you donate, say, £10 to be bombarded with junk mail from the charity, the cost of which probably amounts to the total of the donation?!
I work for a marketing agency specializing in acquiring donors and funding for Christian and humanitarian non-profit organizations. Even though you've never heard of my employer, I can name our five biggest clients and all of you would recognize them.
Donors are the lifeblood of any charity ( also include non-profit organizations in this set) and donor acquisition (an incredibly complex and arcane science stuffed with flow charts, formulae, spreadsheets, and much guesswork) is based on not just acquiring donors, but keeping them.
Here's a sample what services a donor-dependent organization must look for in getting (and keeping!) donors:
+ Marketing Studies and Integrated Strategy Development
+ Donor Acquisition and Cultivation Programs
+ Donor Retention Studies and Programs
+ Response Analysis/Financial and Statistical Modeling
+ Middle Donor Programs
+ Direct Mail, Print Collateral Creative and Production
+ [Mailing] List Management and Brokerage Services
+ Television, Radio and Video Production
+ Broadcast and Print Media Planning and Buying
+ Alternative Response Media--card decks, marriage mailers, inserts
+ Fund Development Seminar Services
+ Governmental Relations (grants, etc.)
Without revenue, the charity shuts down. (I'd like for any Shipmates who who work for a charity or non-profit to weigh in on this.) The bad news? There's never enough revenue. There's always one more child to feed, one more addict to get off the streets, one more village which needs a heifer or a water well. Every charity is always searching for more resources, especially money.
Yes, mailing out pretty pamphlets or appeal letters on behalf of little Hadji in Trashcanistan costs money, but so does buying bags of rice, gallons of petrol, ammunition for the convoy's bodyguards, or paying off local warlords so workers can distribute food bags unmolested. Would you rather hand out 10 bags of rice or 10,000? Fundraising, as well as goods or services production/distribution are costs of doing business for any type of charity. (Some costs, of course, make it into the annual report; others are buried in that wonderful catchall, "Misc.")
Pretend you organize a charity: Frisbees for the Poor. Your goal: Put a Frisbee in every poor child's hand, no matter where he or she lives. "Frisbees for the world!", indeed.
Well, you've only got a few hundred dollars to your name. How many Frisbees can you buy and how far can you distribute them before you exhaust your funds? How much money can you spend (or do you *have* to spend) to advertise your charity in order to get more money (i.e., donors) to buy more Frisbeees and throw them farther and farther over the world? How much of a phone bill can you afford to accumulate calling politicians, reporters, bureaucrats, individual donors, all in the name of keeping that Frisbee for the Poor donor pipeline full and flowing?
Your phone bill might be $5,000/month and your printing bill $50,000/year, but as a result of that level of communication you raise $250,000 in funds! Many Frisbees for many people. More, in fact, than if you hadn't fund-raised.
The best-run charities spend as little as possible on fund-raising and management but ensure they get the highest possible return for their investment.
Now, I hate junk mail as much as anyone and more than most. (Don't even me started on spam.) When I donate money to a charity, I will write, "Do not solicit" or "Do not mail" on the envelope or form. If I get such mail, I will politely call the charity and ask them to please remove me from their mailing list, which normally takes about 3-6 months to accomplish.
All of this to say that funding a charitable organization is much harder than it might seem and there are easy steps you can take to stop the flow of appeals to you.
[/tangent]
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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papillon
Shipmate
# 1389
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Posted
Hey all,
Marmot, I agree with Raspberry Rabbit, stop the bloody moaning woman, you have NO IDEA what it's like for those people you (very nicely) sent money to. I wonder if you're not trying to blacken the name of charity-givers and only wrote your op from the position of devil's advocate?
As for you Erin, you should not call people hypocrites for not coming not on an issue 100% one way or the other. Life isn't all black and white. It is the case that alot of people blame the USA for all the world's ills and that is wrong, but Americans getting all sensitive for the slightest bit of criticism only adds fuel to the fire. You think no-one criticises other countries? You think no-one criticies Britain for the old-Empire days? GET REAL folks and stop talking every criticism of your country so bloody personally. It's a great nation but like all nations, it makes mistakes.
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"..for active love compared with contemplative love is a hard and awesome business." Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov.
Posts: 66 | From: London GB | Registered: Sep 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Christ Almighty, papillon, you're just as thick as the rest of them. You people need remedial reading lessons.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
papillion, you presumptuous little shit, how dare you pretend to know what someone else knows about the world? And while we're at it, how dare you act like you know what life is like for marmot?
Are you really stupid enough to try to lecture everyone here? If so, you can go fuck yourself too. Raspberry Rabbit can show you how.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by marmot:
Don't ever assume that I, or others, take anything, running water, healthcare, issues of life and death, freedom, anything for granted. Don't assume that we only give money to starving orphans on charity brochures and not work on the root causes of worldwide poverty--including those causes here at home. Don't assume that you know what I and others do to achieve a fairer world--this is Hell and I don't owe you an itemized list. If we haven't solved the problem to your timetable and satisfaction, try putting all the energy you spend into yank-bashing into volunteering and see what happens.
YES! YES! YES! Rant on, Marmot! You ROCK! Ahhhhhhh-men!
And don't forget all the aid we send that ends up on the black market, or siphoned off for the sole benefit of the ruling class. Good intentions can only do so much in the face of massive corruption.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Rossweisse // coraggio, Marmot!
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Yeah, fuck you, Raspberry Rabbit.
People post here to entertain ME!
...which, admittedly, Marmot didn't do the greatest job of, the little whiner.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
I had really not considered myself either reading impaired nor particularly stupid but, like I said above, we are usually more accurately viewed by others than we are by ourselves. I shall sign up for an eye exam and have my IQ retested.
The heart of Marmot's original post and the question (though not posed as a question) was how one might
quote:
...be thankful and enjoy our blessings without feeling guilty all the time because someone else doesn?t have the same?
Which is a tremendous question and one that anybody genuinely sensitive to the pain around them has to ask. Unfortunately the kernel of the rant was surrounded by other bits and pieces which were 'way' over the top and making fun of them is a good thing to do because, after all, this is Hell, I'm ornery and if four out of five shipmates, dentists or actuaries don't agree then they can just pound salt.
quote:
After decades of living below our means to support starving children, homeless, handicapped.... <snip> ... I GIVE UP.
quote:
As a family, we don't practice self-denial for congratulations. But it would be nice if the rest of the world would just get off our backs for a week or two.
quote:
we?d like to take time off from saving the world once in a while to enjoy a picnic and a ball game with the kids?
quote:
Who pays for it all? Me, and a million others like me
quote:
I am sick, sick, sick of trying to care for the whole world at the expense of my own family and getting nothing but grief for it.
To which the only possible answer would seem to be 'then *don't*. Come down from the cross for a spell and let others take up the challenge. Play ball! Go on your picnic!
Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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halibut
Shipmate
# 3115
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Okay, how is it that just about EVERYBODY on this thread has missed the point?
Well how about reiterating the point if you think everyone's too dumb to get it?
As for US-bashing: You poor babies. I can see now how criticism of the first world is just so oppressive and unfair. I shall stop forthwith.
Hal, growling
Posts: 59 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Jul 2002
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
/TANGENT AND BUSH BASHING ALERT
quote:
Posted by kenwritez:
...mailing out pretty pamphlets or appeal letters on behalf of little Hadji in Trashcanistan...
Trashcanistan ![[Confused]](confused.gif) You should mention it to Dubya - he'll either bomb it or make it part of the 'axis of evil'
/TANGENT AND BUSH BASHING END
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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