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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Un-United Kingdom?
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mrs whibley
Shipmate
# 4798
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Posted
Alan ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) I assume you mean 'go home' in the nationalist sense rather than 'Home' in the Christian sense originally meant by the song, though - the nuke is making me nervous.
Daisymay - oops! I'm sure that fewer English know that verse of 'God Save the Queen' than know what Perfidious means. (Wheras in Scotland the verse is probably better known - and people have dictionaries). Now I see why it is seldom sung up here.
I don't know all the words to either 'Land of Hope and Glory' or 'Rule Britannia' although the latter's title suggests a British rather than English song.
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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli
Posts: 942 | From: North Lincolnshire | Registered: Aug 2003
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Johnboot you have been called to hell since i can't PM you and you wish me to reveal my e-mail address but keep yours secret I won't be e-mailing you.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I am English, with an Irish wife. Ethnically I am a quarter Irish and a quarter Scots, so I have enough of the mix of these islands in me to relate to the problems. I posted a thread last year in which I lamented that in an international football competetition, most English people, if England had been eliminated, would support Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, because they are British. But the Scots would support Outer Mongolia or anyone against England. This is IMO because the English have a completely different view of the union than the Scots.
To the English, as the dominent force within the British Isles, they can afford to take a patristic attitude towards the Celtic peoples of this island. The Scots, like the Welsh see it as occupation and as a denial of their culture. I think that, whatever the differences we have between us in these islands, and in this I include Ireland, we have far more in common as inhabitants of an archipeligo, than we do with the French or Germans. We all eat bacon and black pudding. We all drink beer in the pub. None of us can undo history, we need in this day to accentuate the positives rather than denigrate the negatives.
But I call on JohnBoot to defend his ignorant misunderstanding of affairs in Northern Ireland in which he says that thousands of occupying forces are keeping control against its people's will. I suggest to you, JohnBoot that you do some research on what's going on there before you stick your uninformed Boot into the situation.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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JohnBoot
BOOTED
# 3566
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
But I call on JohnBoot to defend his ignorant misunderstanding of affairs in Northern Ireland in which he says that thousands of occupying forces are keeping control against its people's will. I suggest to you, JohnBoot that you do some research on what's going on there before you stick your uninformed Boot into the situation.
Did I say something inaccurate? Are there less than thousands of British troops in the Six Counties? Are they not an army of occupation? Perhaps they are on training exercises? Or perhaps they are "peacekeepers" - we Americans know that designation well - that's what we call our troops in Iraq.
And are they not heavily armed? Perhaps they carry no arms at all, just that plucky sense of English fair play. Perhaps.
No, coffee jim, I've never been to Belfast. My family was kicked out of County Tyrone some time back. I'd kind of like to see Ireland unified before I come back.
And, Nightlamp, I blame my dewy freshness to these boards for not knowing what being called down to Hell means. It sounds like some sort of yummy macho pose-down. Do elucidate me!
Posts: 789 | From: Detroit | Registered: Nov 2002
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Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129
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Posted
I'm one of those English people who feels that they have to deny being English to avoid being associated with the superiority-complex-obsessed nationalist elements that seem to have typified 'English' for the last couple of decades. Those and the violent, ignorant, beer-swilling football hooligans that seem to dominate the European image of the English when abroad.
With images such as those, is it any wonder that I'd rather be considered European than English.
An English-by-birth, Scots-by-marriage, man living in Wales for 15 years so far!
quote:
Originally posted by Off-centre view:
and also part Scottish (my late great uncle gave me permission to wear a kilt of the clan if I so wished. Cameron if you were wondering).
There is no such thing as 'being given permission to wear the kilt.' It is a piece of clothing which typically comes in tartan colours. No-one can tell you you're not 'allowed' to wear the kilt in whatever colours you like. I was married in the 'Flower of Scotland' tartan and now own a kilt in the Gunn Ancient which happens to be the tartan of babybear's family (though her Sept is Wilson - you can see why I chose Gunn over Wilson!), but I could have chosen just about any I could have afforded.
Gremlin
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Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...
Oh I get it... like humour... but different.
Posts: 5221 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBoot:
I blame my dewy freshness to these boards for not knowing what being called down to Hell means.
It means there is a thread in Hell with your name on it. You should go and have a look at it.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Zipporah
Silent witness
# 3896
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
When I was young, the Scots national anthem was "Scots wha hae wi' Wallace bled" and now it's changed to "Flower o' Scotland". At one point, they even tried to have "Scotland the Brave".
Ah yes "Scotland the Brave" ... possibly the only anthem in the world sung to "La la la-la la la la" because no-one knows the words! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I always think of "Flower of Scotland" as the real anthem though! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Back after a lengthy absence - it's been too long ...
A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are for. sail out to sea and do new things. Grace Hopper
Posts: 1792 | From: a world of my own | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
I think that, whatever the differences we have between us in these islands, and in this I include Ireland, we have far more in common as inhabitants of an archipeligo, than we do with the French or Germans.
<tangent>
It is, of course, a myth that the Germans or the French are a united society without UK-like divisions. You only have to look at the differences between Bavaria and Northern Germany, or between Southern France and Alsace-Lorraine (the area which has repeatedly flip-flopped between France and Germany over the centuries).
Similarly, even countries as small as Belgium and Switzerland are far from immune from these kinds of sub-divisions. In Belgium it is the Flemish and French speaking Belgians, and in Switzerland, there are the French Swiss, the German Swiss and the Italian Swiss!
I guess this makes the US quite unusual in the apparent wish of most US citizens to be seen as a coherent nation.
</tangent>
Gremlin
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Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...
Oh I get it... like humour... but different.
Posts: 5221 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
I think that, whatever the differences we have between us in these islands, and in this I include Ireland, we have far more in common as inhabitants of an archipeligo, than we do with the French or Germans.
John Major's government - a pretty dreadful one - took Rhyl, re-drew a line on a map, and put it in Denbighshire. Why? God had put it in Flintshire. What do I have in common with Denbighshire people?
No offence...
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gremlin:
I guess this makes the US quite unusual in the apparent wish of most US citizens to be seen as a coherent nation.
It's odder than that, Gremlin. Whatever our ethnic, political, or socio-economic differences, we feel, and are a part of a coherent nation.
Even us Southerners who thought we might like to go it alone a while back.
I had wondered about Germans. I've read a fair amount of German history. I like to say "Love Bavarians. Hate Prussians." From my reading I see them as two separate states.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
I've heard it observed that the Welsh national sport is really fratricide...
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by psyduck:
...took Rhyl, ....What do I have in common with Denbighshire people?
I hear you brother! But don't worry, you can always strive to be better educated and have a decent bit of culture. There is no need to admit to anyone that you are from y Rhyl, just say that you are Welsh and you will instantly gain people's respect.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
You folks in North America can never really understand the heights of passion which we, in Scotland, feel for our hills, our narrow wee roads, our little churches and our sheep. Och, I'm gettin' a wee tear in my eye...
*sob*
Raspberry Rabbit
Penicuik, Midlothian
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
So you really don't feel you're part of one country?
Heavens, no. For a start I've always seen Wales as a country in its own right. It has its own language - everywhere you go, there are public signs and notices which are bilingual - it has its own culture and customs. It comes across as having a strong national identity. I haven't been to Scotland and don't know whether Gaelic is used in the way that Welsh is on public notices and whether it is taught in all schools but there's no doubting that they also have their own culture and customs and a sense of national identity.
Oh, it's simple. Wales is like Québec. I can sleep in peace tonight knowing this.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
You all are making fun of me, aren't you? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
What do you feel your essential identity is? Mine is being American. The Southern thing is basically a schtick.
Let's find out if this is true.
Sine, what was the name of that pesky little old conflict that was fought during the early 1860s? You know the one, between the Blue and the Gray.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Gremlin:
I guess this makes the US quite unusual in the apparent wish of most US citizens to be seen as a coherent nation.
It's odder than that, Gremlin. Whatever our ethnic, political, or socio-economic differences, we feel, and are a part of a coherent nation.
Even us Southerners who thought we might like to go it alone a while back.
Yes and no on the cohesive part, IMHO. Yes, there is a Federal Republic to which individual states and commonwealths joined (or were forced back into union) and agreed to abide by some umbrella rules and regs. And most of us recognnize and respond emotionally to things like the national anthem, certain skylines and dramatic landscapes, or the charm of our own home town. And pop culture is coast-to-coast. But the fact that different states have different laws (some of them quite crucial) provides a sense that one has gone into new culture/society when one moves. I've lived in New York and LA, South Carolina, Detroit, and now near Chicago. I've had to learn new ways of using language, new customs, new rules of ettiquette in each place.
And please, those from Texas (once a nation itself), please speak up. I've always had the impression from friends in the Lone Star State, that unless we're fighting terrorists or fielding an Olympic team, one is a Texan first and foremost. I may be wrong, I have very individualistic friends.
Add to this the children/grandchildren of relatively recent immigrants (a common situation in any developed country these days, actually), and you have loyalty to the old country thrown in and a whole bunch of non-cohesive cultural references and foodways to content with--not to mention ritual hoidays no one else quite understands or worse, appropriates and changes.
One of my best friends in graduate school is from Puerto Rico, and by virtue of that is an American citizen, but she sure doesn't feel cohesiveness nor does she especially want to (as well as all the Puerto Ricans who have consistently voted not to become part of the Union).
A current friend is a member of a First Nation--that must feel like a major disconnect, and was never really a choice.
I'm not sure if this is analogous to the UK/Britain/Endlang/Wales/Scotland/No.Ireland thing but it seems a bit relevant.
The development of European identity should be interesting.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
TBAS, that would be the War of Northern Aggression. I'm surprised you didn't know that. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[Edited to show reference.]
[ 09. November 2003, 03:56: Message edited by: Tortuf ]
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Tortuf, we cross-posted, which saved me from double posting. Thank you.
I was thinking--and I'm not speaking for any Americans on the Ship, just for the people of my RL acquaintance--the people I know actually resent being seen as a cohesive nation for the most part, especially in the face of stereotypes and politics.
sabine
[ 09. November 2003, 04:03: Message edited by: sabine ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Sine, what was the name of that pesky little old conflict that was fought during the early 1860s? You know the one, between the Blue and the Gray.
It was "the War between the States". Why do you ask?
[ 09. November 2003, 04:33: Message edited by: Sine Nomine ]
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Psyduck
Ship's vacant look
# 2270
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Posted
quote:
I hear you brother! But don't worry, you can always strive to be better educated and have a decent bit of culture. There is no need to admit to anyone that you are from y Rhyl, just say that you are Welsh and you will instantly gain people's respect.
Er - thanks, bb...
But actually, if I'm speaking to anyone who seems to know Rhyl, I tell them I was born in St. Asaph...
(Flintshire...)
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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)
Posts: 5433 | From: pOsTmOdErN dYsToPiA | Registered: Feb 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Tangent alert:
quote:
Posted by Zipporah:
I always think of "Flower of Scotland" as the real anthem though!
Am I the only person who can't tell the difference between the first couple of bars of 'Flower of Scotland' and the Chorus of Hebrew Slaves from Nabucco?
Which, given that the Chorus is a rendering of Psalm 137, might not be as much a tangent as I thought. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
End of tangent
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by psyduck:
But actually, if I'm speaking to anyone who seems to know Rhyl, I tell them I was born in St. Asaph...
Very wise!
Rhyl is probably one of the worst places I know... which is really unfortunate as it's the most easily accessible shopping center from here when you only have public transport.
Gremlin
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Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...
Oh I get it... like humour... but different.
Posts: 5221 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zipporah:
I always think of "Flower of Scotland" as the real anthem though!
I prefer the song that was sung at the opening of the Scottish parliament:
For a' that. It's far better than singing about old battles. An anthem that looks to the future, not the past.
quote:
For a' that, an a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That man to man, the world, o'er
Shall brithers be for a' that.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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Peppone
Marine
# 3855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zipporah:
I always think of "Flower of Scotland" as the real anthem though!
I was just recalling today the first time it was really used in anger, as it were. 1990 , Murrayfield. England swaggered up to knock off an easy win and pick up their Grand Slam. They went white when we started to sing. Grown men shaking in their shoes at a few verses of a popular song. Admittedly sung by 40,000 people who wished them nothing but harm.
What a beautiful day that was.
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I looked at the wa's o' Glasgow Cathedral, where vandals and angels painted their names,
I was clutching at straws and wrote your initials, while parish officials were safe in their hames.
Posts: 3020 | From: Hong Kong | Registered: Dec 2002
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Bongo
Shipmate
# 778
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Posted
Englishness is almost impossible to pin down and describe. I'd recommend "The English" by Jeremy Paxman to you, Sine.
For what it's worth, I wasn't at all patriotic until I went and lived in Michigan for a while - and found that I was pleased, and even a little bit proud, to be British! (It wore off quick enough when I came home, though; phew.)
THis whole debate is linked to the recent thread about BNP policemen. The BNP sort of co-opted the term "English" so that to describe yourself as English was, in some people's opinions, to declare yourself a racist.
I still would be a bit suspicious of anyone who was noisily patriotic about being English.
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"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!" ~ Dr Strangelove
Posts: 492 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2001
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
We were in Brittany on holiday a few years ago.
One day, we'd ordered up lunch in a cafe and were sitting outside. The waiter was asking the kids, in passable English, if they were having a "good 'oleeday". He was really nice.
When the younger child tipped its drink all over its plate, he came out, mopped up the mess, took it away, brought out replacements refusing money for them with "children do this, it's not a problem."
As we sat, up came The Englishman. Shorts, shirt, long socks, hat. He looked like an English caricature.
No attempt to speak any French, and the waiter who'd been so nice was giving the Gaulic shrug to "CHEESE" with a pointing finger, which was how the Eng. was trying to order a baguette.
His very manner was offensive. The nice waiter who'd been making contact with us waited till he'd gone, then said he knew we couldn't be English, because we spoke French and were polite.
The same attitude was widespread in all places.
Eventually we became a bit saddened that all English are so labelled. Trouble was, over some years, we never came across any other types.
Maybe it's only the loud objectionable ones from everywhere that get noticed.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by musician:
Maybe it's only the loud objectionable ones from everywhere that get noticed.
It's the same in any community. The quiet polite people may outnumber the few noisy ones, but because they're quiet and polite, they don't usually get noticed.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Babybear:
quote:
The reason that "everyone hates the English" is because of the way that the English overlords tried to repress the local languages, evicted people from the land (to replace them with sheep), treated the locals are almost subhumans, ooh and any number of other things. "Everyone" includes the Cornish, the Devonians, the Cumbrians, the Lancastrians, the Yorkshiremen/women etc.
The Devonians (I am a Devonian) do not hate the English. We are English. The Lancastrians (my grandparents) do not hate the English. They are English. Ditto the Cumbrians. Ditto the Yorkshire men/ women. Presumably you think that "the English" all live in the Home Counties and spend their free time hunting foxes and highland urchins with dogs.
I can respect a sensible Scottish nationalist. What I despise is the ignorant anglophobia, which, like a kindred prejudice, might be described as 'the socialism of fools'. It consists of taking a series of complicated historical events and reducing their socio-economic causes down to a "Braveheart" account of history in which everything is the result of wicked Englishmen played by Alan Rickman and Patrick McGoohan.
What unmitigated drivel.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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scoticanus
Shipmate
# 5140
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Posted
For the record, I feel Scottish and if one employs the "hotel test" (what does one put down as one's country in an hotel register?) I invariably put Scotland.
I'm an Anglophile in the same way that I'm a Francophile and a Germanophile. I don't really feel "British" in any strong sense.
In politics I'm a Scottish Nationalist.
Posts: 491 | From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Nov 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Slight tangent alert - I won't disagree with Professor Mr Callan, although growing up in Yorkshire the images of 'Englishness' that we were presented with by the BBC/press/magazines etc seemed very foreign and 'home counties'. That has changed somewhat as the media have taken on board regional accents and cultures, and it's now I think easier to feel English and not be a southern toff. But here in Merseyside England seems something of a foreign country still, as Irish, Welsh and other nationalities make up the majority of the population.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
It's simple really.
Britain is made up of England, Scotland and Wales.
Great Britain is England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
The title page of my passport says:
'European Community
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.'
Which seems to indicate that Great Britain and Northern Ireland are two separate entities; Great Britain being Scotland, Wales, England (and the various islands?), and Northern Ireland being, well, out on its own, natch!
Indeed, I've been waiting for someone to query Balaam's statement. Great Britain = Britain. It refers to the largest of the islands which make up the British Isles. There are a lot of these; GB, Ireland, Mann, Wight, Shetlands, Hebrides and Orkneys at least!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Peppone
Marine
# 3855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Callan:
Originally posted by Babybear:
The Devonians (I am a Devonian) do not hate the English. We are English. The Lancastrians (my grandparents) do not hate the English. They are English. Ditto the Cumbrians. Ditto the Yorkshire men/ women. Presumably you think that "the English" all live in the Home Counties and spend their free time hunting foxes and highland urchins with dogs.
I agree with all of this, but have a little story from Cumbria. My Mum and Dad grew up there, and live there again now. The people of their valley- the Duddon Valley- refer to places outside the valley as England. If someone drives 40 miles to Kendal, his friends might say: "Really? I haven't been over to England in months."
It doesn't mean much in this debate- they don't really mean they're not English- but I find it quaint and interesting.
[ 09. November 2003, 15:53: Message edited by: Peppone ]
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I looked at the wa's o' Glasgow Cathedral, where vandals and angels painted their names,
I was clutching at straws and wrote your initials, while parish officials were safe in their hames.
Posts: 3020 | From: Hong Kong | Registered: Dec 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Sorry for getting it wrong, but its not as clear as that. If Britain refered to just the largest of the islands where does that leave, among others, - The Hebrides, Shetlands and Orkneys; (part of Scotland)
- Wight, Scilly Isles, Farne Islands, Holy Island; (Part of England)
- Anglesey and the other Holy Island; (Part of Wales)
Myself? I'm English with some Scottish (and some French) Ancestry. Married to an English woman wit Welsh ancestry. So that makes our children ![[Confused]](confused.gif) .
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Peppone
Marine
# 3855
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Posted
Ooop. Screwed up the code in my post above. The line "Posted by Babybear" should be deleted.
Sorry.
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I looked at the wa's o' Glasgow Cathedral, where vandals and angels painted their names,
I was clutching at straws and wrote your initials, while parish officials were safe in their hames.
Posts: 3020 | From: Hong Kong | Registered: Dec 2002
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Callan:
The Devonians (I am a Devonian) do not hate the English. We are English. The Lancastrians (my grandparents) do not hate the English. They are English. Ditto the Cumbrians. Ditto the Yorkshire men/ women.
We have obviously been talking to different people. I have quite often heard "But we are not really English, we are....".
But I am delighted that your experience is differnt from mine! I would love normal, everyday English people to stand up and say that they are English. It will steal back a huge amount of power from the racists.
quote:
Clan's man MacLurker said:
For a' that. It's far better than singing about old battles. An anthem that looks to the future, not the past.
You don't know what Flower of Scotland is about then. The last verse says:
Those days are past now,
And in the past
they must remain,
But we can still rise now,
And be the nation again,
That stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again.
It is about Scotland putting aside the things of the past, the old battles and old grudges and moving forward. It is about the writer believing that the people of Scotland have the potential to become a great nation once more.
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Babybear
Far too often 'being English' is the preserve of the extreme xenophobic nationalists, or the arrogantly smug WASPs. So they deny their Englishness to avoid being mistaken for those people. It is time for the English to stand up and be proud of the their country, culture (and multi-cultures), their people and achievments
One of the cultural differences I have noticed between England and America (and I do mean England, not Britain) is that an awful lot
of English lefties are genuinely extremely hesitant indeed to make pro-English nationalist statements.
I think there are a number of reasons for this this: including the fact that it is easy to unintentionally cause offense to the other nations and also because English nationalism has been almost the exclusive preserve of the far right for a long old time. Although, as Sarkycow and others have pointed out, this is slooooooooooowly changing.
Incidentally, I lived in the the Orkney Islesfor about 10 years and many if not most Orcadians do not even consider themselves to be a part of Scotland, let alone Britain.
It seems to be that right-wing English people are far more likely than anyone else to be “one-nation” Tories and to use “Britain” and “England” interchangeably. However, the cultural differences between the nations of Britain are vast.
I still, however, find it amusing that the kilt was invented by a stingy Englishman. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Tangent alert:
quote:
Posted by Zipporah:
I always think of "Flower of Scotland" as the real anthem though!
Am I the only person who can't tell the difference between the first couple of bars of 'Flower of Scotland' and the Chorus of Hebrew Slaves from Nabucco?
Which, given that the Chorus is a rendering of Psalm 137, might not be as much a tangent as I thought.
End of tangent
Oh dear, dashing babies against rocks. That's definitely a problem those of us in oppressed exploited nations have to eradicate - hatred, rage and revenge.
The anthem's power is beginning to make more sense to me. Echoes of the wonderful music of "Nabucco", echoes of the words (and so probably the amazing tune too) of the "Flowers of the Forest" - tragedy, echoes of historical times of victory, decisions not to be trampled on in the future. Makes for a rather amazing anthem.
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London
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Then there's the difference between Anglo-Saxon Southern England and the Northern historical Danelaw, settled by Vikings.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
I have very strong opinions about this. You're ALL wrong!!!
National identity, is quite frankly, a load of bollocks. The only difference between the English and the Welsh is that the Welsh have another language. It causes division, we all live under one sun and most of the people on the geographical archipelago we have indistinctly called "Britain" seem to have no shared values of one kind or another but yes there are characteristics that we all share.
So, in answer to the original question, I am, in the cheesiest, hippy-like, wrong-in-official-documents way "a citizen of the world". Up yours, national identity.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Wotcha doin in Cardiff? There's Britain for you! The old Welshman down our road used to speak Welsh to the Breton Onion Johnnie, who spoke to him in Breton. They seemed to understand each other perfectly.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indie Rob:
So, in answer to the original question, I am, in the cheesiest, hippy-like, wrong-in-official-documents way "a citizen of the world". Up yours, national identity.
"Citizen of the world" is one of those idiot phrases that sounds good to the unthinking, but means nothing.
What does it mean to you, Rob? How many different countries and cultures have you lived in that makes you a "citizen of the world"? How many languages do you speak?
I do think there are some "citizens of the world" but I very much doubt you're one of them.
Please prove me wrong.
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Speaking personally, I don’t really know what being English means to me since I don’t really have a lot to contrast it with. I. E my knowledge of most other nations ranges from pretty limited to non-existent.
I tend to think that I primarily see myself in terms of my personality, my occupation, my friends and that even my taste in music defines “me” far more than does my nationality. I certainly don’t feel personally insulted when people have a go at England and I doubt that I would be prepared to die for England; per se.
England is not so much a place as a hard-to-define social construct.However, I am probably far more English than I know or would care to admit.
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Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I dont think I ever really was pleased to be British or English/whatever, until I went abroad a bit, and even the US/Uk threads on here!!!! I think in seeing the contrasts, i was better able to realise what there was in England that was "me" - if that makes *any* sense!
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385
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Posted
I found this thread interesting as I have, at one time or another lived in both Scotland and Wales, as well as England.
For what its worth- my take is that the labels Scottish and Welsh are very important to those from Scotland and Wales. I call them labels rather than national identity, because, my opinion is that in truth, they are not particularly different to the English.
Scottish culture is pretty similar to English, and so are the people- relative to say the French or Germans. One thing I found with most expressions of Scottish national identity was that they tended to be essentially anti-English. Rather than defining Scottishness in terms of something positive, it was seen as being "not English"- where English was taken to be arrogant, aloof, imperialistic etc etc.
I really didn't feel like a foreigner in terms of culture, or the way I behaved, I only felt different because I had a different label attached. I can understand where Rob comes from when he says about nationalities because in Wales, or more particuarly Cardiff, there is a very similar feel to England- and for someone who has experienced life in England, it seems hard to understand what all the fuss about "Welshness" is about.
Posts: 984 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indie Rob:
So, in answer to the original question, I am, in the cheesiest, hippy-like, wrong-in-official-documents way "a citizen of the world".
Yes, but whose world? The world where you're permitted to accrue wealth, enjoy good health, education and freedom to worship, or not, as you wish? Or the world where you might be lucky to live to 35 due to malnutrition, lack of food, livelihood and income; or conscripted at the end of a rifle-butt into a tribal war along with your ten year old children? Who built the world of which you are a citizen, and who provides, and upholds your right to have, the freedom for you to express your interesting opinion?
The world's a big place ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) .
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
Sorry for getting it wrong, but its not as clear as that. If Britain refered to just the largest of the islands where does that leave, among others, - The Hebrides, Shetlands and Orkneys; (part of Scotland)
- Wight, Scilly Isles, Farne Islands, Holy Island; (Part of England)
- Anglesey and the other Holy Island; (Part of Wales)
Landmasses and countries are not the same thing. So Angelsey and Bardsey and many other islands are part of Wales; Wight, Scilly, Lindisfarne are part of England. However, I might revise my Britain = Great Britain thing from my last post. Great Britain is definitely the land mass, the island of Great Britain which contains the majority of the countries of England, Wales and Scotland, whereas Britain could be said to refer to the whole of those three countries. Maybe.
Personally I'm half Welsh, half English. I grew up in England, although my dad's from Cardiff. Went to Uni in Wales and learnt Welsh, then returned to England for Post-grad. In someways though I felt more English in Wales (especially amongst Welsh speakers because I didn't have the shared childhood of Eisteddfodau ayb (etc)) than I do in England. But when it comes to Rugby it's Wales all the way. We've corrupted my mum too, she was cheering for Wales today over England, unfortunately despite a good start we let them have too many penalties. Attitudes to Wales England matches during the Six Nations (or indeed World Cup) are very interesting. It's the key one for the Welsh, but just another game to the English. I think it's more important for the English to beat the French than the Scots or the Welsh.
Welsh speaking Wales has a very different culture to England. There are different cultural institutions - especially surrounding the Eisteddfod (especially Gorsedd y Beirdd which has nothing really to do with druidry) - a different religous history - Chapel not Church and the different language. Poetry is far more important, I remember going into the Quad in Old Coll. in Aber to find one of the lads from my class sitting there writing a poem. I'm not convinced you'd get that in England.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
You guys are making me really envy my nephew's year in Wales. Although he's in Swansea, which I understand is the armpit of the universe.
I think if I had a chance to do it, I'd rather be in Edinburgh.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
Dear psyduck
What John Major's not very good(I agree) government did in moving you from Flintshire to Denbighshire by redrawing a map, is what Harold Wilson's not very good government did to me in 1967. I was born in Carlisle, the county town of Cumberland in 1954, though I've lived in the south since 1961. Wilson's government oversaw the creation of new larger counties. Rutland, England's smallest county was absorbed into Cambridgeshire. Many of the old Scottish shires such as Sutherland were amalgamated into larger groups.
Cumbria was formed from the counties of Cumberland, Westmorland and Furness. Furness, though detached physically from Lancashire, was always part of it. The people of Barrow always looked o'er the shimmering sands of Morecambe Bay to their spiritual home. And then some beurocrat sends you a letter telling you that you have changed counties. The Westmorland people have never accepted Cumbria as a county. The lovely town of Appleby, famous for its annual gypsy fair in my childhood, has renamed itself "Appleby in Westmorland" because the grey uited planners tell us that Westmorland no longer exists.
Ask many Humberside people from Hull and they will tell you they are North Yorksire. Ask a Merseysider from Wallesy and they will say they are Cheshire. For a Whitehall beurocrat to draw a map and think that in doing so he can change people's identities is a fallacy. Governments should get out of this kind of manipulation.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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