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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The Un-United Kingdom?
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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Ken - my point exactly. I was refuting Flying_Belgian's claim that in England "Nation" is the only form of identity which isn't "patronising, incorrect and wrong".

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
scoticanus
Shipmate
# 5140

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quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
Would Scotland still be better off independent?

I couldn't care less. I'd vote for independence even if it meant that I personally was much poorer. It just feels right for a nation to govern itself.
Posts: 491 | From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
the real reason Westminster fears independence.

[Killing me]

scz, I agree with you that given independance over 75% of British oil would be Scottish. I deliberately avoided both Westminster ans SNP statistics as they are both likely to be biased.

Given just this share Scotland would be economically viable.

Whatever next? Is the Isle of Man going to claim its share of Irish Sea Gas?

Ken, I'm surprised that the Government puts Oxford and Cambridge in the South East. I always took the SE to be Surrey, Sussex and Kent.

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
musician

Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873

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quote:
Elizabeth WIndsor (QE2 of GB and NI).
[Mad]

She is (god help us) QE1 in Scotland, so therefore only QE1 of the UK.
She's QE2 of England, Wales & Ireland, coz they got stuck with the first one too.

James is too often referred to as the 1st, as if only English reference is counted.

mind you, the sooner we send them all back to their estates and have an elected head of state the better. [Big Grin]

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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Ken - my point exactly. I was refuting Flying_Belgian's claim that in England "Nation" is the only form of identity which isn't "patronising, incorrect and wrong".

You misinterpret my point. What I was trying to say was that it would be "patronising, incorrect and wrong" to call Scotland a region. Similarly, if you called Scotland a county- that would hardly be an improvement.

I wasn't talking about all other forms of identity (regional, county, city) just alternative ways of discussing what kind of an entity Scotland is.

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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385

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Dear Balaam

Be careful of using terms like "economically viable" because in terms of a country, it is a meaningless concept.

The term "econimcally viable" implies that there is some kind of "bankrupcy test" that a country might fail- i.e. if a region secedes from the rest of a nation state, it will simply not survive economically- like a company being put out of business.

Looking around the world there are independent nations far far poorer than Scotland. There is not some kind of economic driving test that you have to pass to be viable.

Imagine if Wales (poorer than Scotland) declared independence. Yes, it would be true to say that the country would suddenly face a big budget shortfall (since it is a net recipient of UK funds)- which would then lead to a difficult economic decision: do you cut spending to match reduced revenue levels, or do you raise tax rates to maintain spending at its current level. This might cause a lot of problems, but the country isn't suddenly going to vanish into a black hole, or go bang or something.

The economic of independence are not a binary choice between viability and non-viability, but rather a sliding scale.

It was clear that Slovaks are economically worse off independent as opposed to being part of Czechoslovakia, but they judged it worth doing for the other benefits. Independent Slovakia was not "economically unviable" just less beneficial.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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Sorry, bad terminology there. Take it to mean that Scotland would be better off.

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by musician:
James is too often referred to as the 1st, as if only English reference is counted.

Depends, of course, which James you mean.

James I (Scotland)

was a much better poet than

James I (England) VI (Scotland) - away win.

************

Is there any argument for devolution for Wales that does not apply equally to devolution for Cornwall?

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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!

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TonyK

Host Emeritus
# 35

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SCZ et al - may I refer you to this Scottish Office document which gives Scotland's Income and expenditure for the period 1996/97.

It includes figures for the oil revenue received in total, though not figures for whisky, other than for the tax from sales of whisky.

A quick, and possibly not reliable, totalling gives income including oil revenue as £28.3 billion and expenditure as £31.4 billion - a shortfall of income compared to expenditure of £3.1 billion, which is equal to approx 11p for every pound of income. Ignoring the oil revenue gives 27p in the £1 - perhaps the basis for the 30p I read about.

How these figures relate to those supplied by Free Scotland I do not know, though I suppose it is possible that the Scottish Office figures are unreliable.

I will try to do some more research tomorrow - unfortunately I have better things to do at the moment (starting to prepare a sermon for Sunday being one of them) [Roll Eyes]

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Yours aye ... TonyK

Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jon G
Shipmate
# 4704

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I've lived a pretty peripatetic existence up to this point - born in the North East of England, grew up in the Midlands lived for a while in London,the South West, Wales and Scotland and now in Yorkshire.

What strikes me above anything is the extraordinary diversity of cultures and communities that make up the countries and regions of the British Isles.

I agree with those who argue that both Scotland and Wales are 'foreign' to England in the sense they have distinct identities and cultural history. However, there is great diversity with in all the countries - between lets say, Gwynedd and Pembroke, Northumbria and the Cotswolds or Glasgow and Edinburgh.

In the long run, I don't think it's that important whether Scotland or Wales have full independence within Britain or not - the cultural mix that exists on this island will continue whatever the political boundaries are. Was Robert the Bruce Scottish or Norman-French? Was the Duke of Wellington, English or Irish? What kind of Welsh identity did Dylan Thomas look to forge in his writing?

For me this is best represented by Iona - which at the time of Columba was not a remote island, as we see it today - but bang in the middle of a busy sea lane - it was a bit like building a monastery in the middle of a motorway junction!

And on Iona,the Irish/Pictish/British/Saxon monks wrote the Book of Kells an extraordinary fusion of Irish,Germanic,and Mediterranean influences.

P.S Like Marvin the Martian - my own cultural heritage is that of Piers Ploughman, Elgar and....Tolkein [Roll Eyes]

[ 10. November 2003, 20:24: Message edited by: Jon G ]

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At the dark end of the street

Posts: 182 | From: Newcastle west | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129

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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
And no-one can really describe Lancashire as a "spiritual home" in all seriousness.

As a Yorkshireman, I have to agree with my learned friend on this point!

quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Otherwise, Paul's last post is absolutely fine.

However, he also claimed Hull to be in North Yorkshire... it is not, it is in the former East Riding of Yorkshire.

Gremlin

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Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...
Oh I get it... like humour... but different.

Posts: 5221 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Manx Taffy
Shipmate
# 301

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
Thankyou Manx Taffy for clearing up the Mann issue. A further complication is IIRC the Manx compete for the UK at competitioms such as the Olympic Games.

Can someone now please clarify the position of the Channel Islands.

{Capitalising proper noun.}

My understanding is that the Channel Islands are each also Crown Dependencies - though they have less mutaul taxation agreements with the UK. IoM has agreed to apply the same rates of NI and VAT as the UK - this has led to several unwanted (by government and people) rises in taxation recently.

The IOM join the GB team for the olympics but of course have their own team in the Commonwealth games. Manx borm people can adopt any of the home nations if they are good enough to represent at a country at football, rugby etc. About 60% of Manx people would support England whereas the rest often support their Celtic cousins.

On your other point re Irish Sea resources. The Manx Government has full rights to oil/gas within our 12 mile terretorial waters and has already claimed good fees to allow gas exploration in recent years - so hands off! [Biased]

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Gremlin:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
And no-one can really describe Lancashire as a "spiritual home" in all seriousness.

As a Yorkshireman, I have to agree with my learned friend on this point!

quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Otherwise, Paul's last post is absolutely fine.

However, he also claimed Hull to be in North Yorkshire... it is not, it is in the former East Riding of Yorkshire.

Gremlin

If by Lancashire you mean the Dutchy of Lancaster (traditionally), then it has the same chance of independance as that other dutchy, Cornwall. See Chaplehead's post above. Wales , being a principality, has more chance.

The former East Riding of Yorkshire, changed to North Humberside, is now East Yorkshire. However the traditional county bounderies still stand in law if not for local government.

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blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine*

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631

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I just want to thank you all for your illuminating posts to date. For a furriner, everything is now as clear as mud. [Confused]

You're doing this on purpose, aren't you.

[ 10. November 2003, 22:17: Message edited by: Sine Nomine ]

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Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I just want to thank you all for your illuminating posts to date. For a furriner, everything is now as clear as mud. [Confused]

You're doing this on purpose, aren't you.

Oh, absolutely, dear Sine!

I guess it all boils down to the fact that the countries on these islands have a recorded history that goes back more than a mere 25 generations! [Devil]

Of course, the previous occupiers of the lands now known as the USA don't count. Why would they? They didn't speak English or French, didn't read the Bible, didn't write their history down in books, and wore less clothes than the European interlopers. They'd only been there 10-14 thousand years!

Gremlin

[ 10. November 2003, 23:12: Message edited by: Gremlin ]

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Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...
Oh I get it... like humour... but different.

Posts: 5221 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
I think Scotland would be more successful given it's own chance to be positive about itself rather than the small brother.

I agree with that. I also lived in Scotland for a few years (one of five countries I have been sometime resident in) and what struck me strongly (as with Flying Belgian) was the manner in which Scotland defined itself as 'not English'. Scotland does indeed have its own legal system and its own education system (which in my experience seemed to work better than their English equivalents and certainly I got a good education there) but as much as not I heard about them in reference to guarding the Scottishness of these institutions against the white faces from the south.

Sadly this attitude had, in my experience, an ugly fringe. I remember my first sight of Glasgow - seeing a fence with 'FUCK THE ENGLISH' written on it in huge letters. On another occasion a ned tried to smash a wine bottle over my head (I'm English myself). A Kiwi friend with whom I studied later told me that he considered a fair amount of what he read in the Scottish media to be simple racism. One such item was a two-page spread in the Glasgow Herald exploring how English people can turn from bowler-hatted accountants to skinheaded hooligans. I regularly encountered people who made it tolerably clear that they would have prefered me not to be in their country. I also remember hearing about an English family whose house was vandalised and anti-English graffiti daubed on it. In itself that's bad but no worse than what a good many Asian families probably have to put up with all across the country. What was telling was the 'who cares, they're English' attitude that most people took which I think would not have been held if the unfortunate family had been of any other ethnicity

I have not encountered these attitudes in any sort of similar measure in the other (formerly British-governed) countries in which I have been resident. For the record these countries are Australia, South Africa and now New Zealand.

At the time the (Conservative) Major government was in office despite having lost all credibility north of the border and I'm sure that contributed to the frustration. But I think it did lead to some mistaken attitudes.

Even more sadly a Scottish friend of mine who got a place at Cambridge to study a PhD left the place like a bat out of hell back north when he'd finished - he got fed up with the hardening attitudes he encountered from the English people around him. English nationalism is not something I would want to see roused, in its current state it seems to be merely about anti-Europeanism as a great deal of Scottish nationalism is about anti-Englishness.

quote:
The further north you go in Scotland the more people love Brussels and hate Westminster. Brussels gives us grants for new facilities, services etc. Westminster gave us the poll tax and fishing deregulation.
Actually Orkney and Shetland returned the weakest vote in favour of devolution when the referendum was held. They may love Brussels but a lot of people went for Westminster over Edinburgh.

[Edited for UBB.]

[ 11. November 2003, 10:30: Message edited by: Tortuf ]

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I just want to thank you all for your illuminating posts to date. For a furriner, everything is now as clear as mud. [Confused]

You're doing this on purpose, aren't you.

This is what comes from being in a country without a written constitution, there are different oppinions as to what makes up the countries of the UK.

Technicly speaking I don't think countries are the right definitions(other than for the whole of the UK). There are the Kingdoms of Scotland and England, the Principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland, all of which have different status.

Within England there are the Dutchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, which have a different status to other counties. (I believe the county of Durham may also have a different status due to its separate history.) [Confused]

It's as clear as mud to the residents too.

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
strathclydezero

# 180

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
quote:
The further north you go in Scotland the more people love Brussels and hate Westminster. Brussels gives us grants for new facilities, services etc. Westminster gave us the poll tax and fishing deregulation.

Actually Orkney and Shetland returned the weakest vote in favour of devolution when the referendum was held. They may love Brussels but a lot of people went for Westminster over Edinburgh.
My comparison was between Brussels and Westminster. I'm quite aware that those in the north are not best pleased with Holyrood either.

[Edited for UBB.]

[ 11. November 2003, 10:32: Message edited by: Tortuf ]

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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov

Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I just want to thank you all for your illuminating posts to date. For a furriner, everything is now as clear as mud. [Confused]

You're doing this on purpose, aren't you.

I was tempted to ask when I read some of the later postings if you were enjoying your thread, but I thought it might be unkind.

You will just have to come to the British Isles, do your own Triumphant Tour of Her Majesty's Realm, and draw your own conclusions. If you haven't already done so. It may be a small island but it's surprisingly diverse for its size and I think you'd find it interesting.

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TonyK

Host Emeritus
# 35

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SCZ et al-

Some more up-to-date figures for Tax Year 2000-01

Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland: 2000-2001

Expenditure £,millions

Identifiable: 1 28,428

Non-identifiable: 2 3,407

Other: 3 4,700

TOTAL EXPENDITURE 36,535 Which is 10.10% of UK total

Income

Taxes, rates etc 30,900 Which is 8.2% of UK total

North Sea Oil Revenue 4,300

TOTAL INCOME 35,200 Which is 9.29% of UK total


Av .Expenditure / Head
England £4,529 Scotland £5,558
Wales £5,302 N Ireland £6,424

Notes

1 Identifiable expenditure is defined as that expenditure which can be identified from official records as having been incurred on behalf of the population of a particular country/region.
2. "Non-identifiable" expenditure is expenditure generally incurred on behalf of the UK or GB as a whole. E.g. Defence, trade and industry, overseas expenditure. Shared pro rata
3. E.g. debt interest

[Edited to fix layout slightly!] [And URL]

[ 11. November 2003, 10:55: Message edited by: Tortuf ]

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Yours aye ... TonyK

Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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Whisky duty for Scotland. (And whiskey duty for Northern Ireland)

The duty paid on French Cognac and Swedish Vodka in Britain goes to the Westminster government. For the scots to claim all whisky duty is a little unrealistic.

A devolved Scotland would only be able to clain duty for sales in Scotland. Sales in England will continue to go to Westminster.

On the other hand you would get the duty on Scottish sales of London and Plymouth gin.

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
strathclydezero

# 180

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Dear Balaam,

Export duty.

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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov

Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Dear Balaam,

Export duty.

Which is nowhere near as high as the duty on Spirits. If export duty on Scotch was so high it would only serve to increase the sales of Irish.

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
Technicly speaking I don't think countries are the right definitions(other than for the whole of the UK). There are the Kingdoms of Scotland and England, the Principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland, all of which have different status.

Within England there are the Dutchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, which have a different status to other counties. (I believe the county of Durham may also have a different status due to its separate history.) [Confused]

It's as clear as mud to the residents too.

Sorry, but this is to assume that there is anything like coherence to British constitutional law.

There are no kingdoms of England and Scotland: since the various Acts of Union of 1707 and 1801, it has been the United Kingdom of Great Britain [and [Northern] Ireland, depending on time of question]. The kingdoms of England and Scotland were merged/united: they do not continue to exist alongside the United Kingdom.

Strictly speaking, the Principality of Wales as a legal entity disappeared in the so-called Acts of Union of Henry VIII (1534-1543): Wales was subsumed into England, which is why there is no Welsh element to the Union Flag. (In effect, the independent principality of Wales disappeared in 1282 with the death of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, but that's another story)

Northern Ireland is called a province, but no definition of such a term exists: it is a reference to the ancient Provinces of Ireland, of which Ulster is one, but NI only comprises six of the nine counties of the province of Ulster.

The remaining duchies are Royal possessions: the Duke of Lancaster is the Queen, and the Duke of Cornwall is also the Prince of Wales. The duchies only exist for legal purposes connected to the rights and privileges of the crown.

There is no legal difference between the status of Wales, Scotland, N Ireland and any of the counties/regions/duchies/boroughs of England: one of the simplicities of a centralised state is that the United Kingdom is a single legal entity. Parliament has chosen to give some of its powers to devolved administrations, but it can as easily take them back.

Part of the problem with the argument over nations and regions is that we tend to see nations only as nation-states - those which control their own destiny (if such a concept has any validity in the days of the EU, UN, WTO, etc). It is possible to have nations which do not have such control, and even possible to have nations without properly-defined territories.

Clear now, Sine?

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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor

At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken

Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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quote:
Originally posted by Rhisiart:
Sorry, but this is to assume that there is anything like coherence to British constitutional law.

There are no kingdoms of England and Scotland: since the various Acts of Union of 1707 and 1801 [...] The kingdoms of England and Scotland were merged/united: they do not continue to exist alongside the United Kingdom.

You are, of course, forgetting the Kingdom of Fife. [Disappointed]

Rat

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69

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quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
You are, of course, forgetting the Kingdom of Fife. [Disappointed]

Rat

Similarly non-existent in legal terms - but I am in danger of displaying my pedantry again [Paranoid]

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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor

At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken

Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373

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quote:
Originally posted by Rhisiart:
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
You are, of course, forgetting the Kingdom of Fife. [Disappointed]

Similarly non-existent in legal terms - but I am in danger of displaying my pedantry again [Paranoid]
Oooh. Come and say that in Auchtermuchty. If you think you're hard enough, like.

[Biased]

Rat

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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]

Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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It's not just us. Denmark is just as confusing, (Faeroe? Greenland? That little place no-one can ever remember?) and even the Finns have the Aaland islands.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Rhisiart:
Sorry, but this is to assume that there is anything like coherence to British constitutional law.

There is no written constitution in Britain. As Rhisiart has said there is no coherence in British constitutional law. Therefore any statements by me or anyone else on this board are not 100% true.

Despite the fact that all the parts of the UK should have equal status, the fact that the Westminster government gave different powers to the regional assemblies of Scotland and Wales seems to imply that Westminster regards them as having different status.

It would seem that the status of the parts of the UK is whatever Westminster, at any point in time, regards it to be.

Still as clear as mud.

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace*

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I just want to thank you all for your illuminating posts to date. For a furriner, everything is now as clear as mud. [Confused]

You're doing this on purpose, aren't you.

Sine, it is as clear as mud. Just think of how the United States expanded from "Sea to Shining Sea" in the first seventy-five years of its existence. Now draw the process out and imagine that the Louisiana Purchase, the Northwest Territory, and the Northwest Territory (the part we kept, anyway - although that might be a good Ulster analogue) were more than just Huge Tracts of Land, they were nation-states, perhaps cobbled together thru conquest and/or dynastic marriage, perhaps not, but retaining distinct national identities. Imagine they didn't have a written constitution. Imagine there was no defining event such as The Unpleasantness Between The States - which pretty much curbed the independent tendencies of union states as well as confederate ones. Don't forget our territories (Puerto Rico, especially). You'll be getting close.

All right, you know and I know that there were parts of these United States that were seperate nations at one point or other in their histories. You and I both live in such parts. (I do have to say that seeing a large map of North America ca. 1840 quite etched itself in my brain. I live in what was then Mexico (before it struck out briefly on its own - Tejas _was_ a nation-state then.) And there are "nationalist" leanings there. But what's Over There has been fermenting a lot longer. And as a very broad generalization, over here we do tend to think of ourselves as American in nationality (we might qualify it further regionally of course, I certainly do).

Of course I think that people throwing in the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster are a bit of a curveball to the average dumb American. The main special thing about them that I can see is that they belong to the crown (I know Lancaster was through a dynastic marriage, due to the habit monarchs had of poaching great heiresses for their impecunious younger sons) and they're wealthy.

(Okay, my head is still spinning trying to figure out the Channel Island stuff. It's a point of some interest to me since one of my sets of great-great-grandparents, including the original Charlotte I'm named for, was from Jersey. The original, not the "what exit" one. As far as I can figure, those are a remnant from when the English monarchs were Dukes of Normandy as well.)

Charlotte (aka Amazing Grace)

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Posts: 2594 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Of course I think that people throwing in the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster are a bit of a curveball to the average dumb American.

Duchies and stuff are just frippery. About the same relevance to British politics as state flowers and birds are in US. Less, in fact.

There is some, mostly rather sentimental and intellectual, non-English feeling in Cornwall, but its nothing to do with Dukes, its because the Cornish people are, or rather were a few hundred years ago, British rather than English. But the English conquest of Cornwall was over a thousand years ago, and the Cornish language has been dead for 200 years.

[...]


quote:

(Okay, my head is still spinning trying to figure out the Channel Island stuff. It's a point of some interest to me since one of my sets of great-great-grandparents, including the original Charlotte I'm named for, was from Jersey. The original, not the "what exit" one. As far as I can figure, those are a remnant from when the English monarchs were Dukes of Normandy as well.)

That's exaclty right. They were never part of Britain at all, just other territories owing allegiance to the person who happend to be king of England, Scotland, and Ireland.

The only reason they aren't independent nowadays, with a purely ceremonial relationship to the monarchy (like that of, say, Canada) is that the British government likes to keep some control over a few offshore banking centres.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Chapelhead*

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There is some, mostly rather sentimental and intellectual, non-English feeling in Cornwall, but its nothing to do with Dukes, its because the Cornish people are, or rather were a few hundred years ago, British rather than English. But the English conquest of Cornwall was over a thousand years ago, and the Cornish language has been dead for 200 years.

Are you sure?

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Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ce
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# 1957

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quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There is some, mostly rather sentimental and intellectual, non-English feeling in Cornwall, but its nothing to do with Dukes, its because the Cornish people are, or rather were a few hundred years ago, British rather than English. But the English conquest of Cornwall was over a thousand years ago, and the Cornish language has been dead for 200 years.

Are you sure?
Well Mebyon Kernow would say that wouldn't they.

It was "re-discovered" by a bunch of middle-class w...ers sorry I mean ex-hippies.

ce

[ 13. November 2003, 17:39: Message edited by: ce ]

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ce

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Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129

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Wow, what a peculiar mixture of Welsh, and Old English. With a scattering of Scots too.

Some examples:
Mebyon (k.) = Meibion (cym.) = Brotherhood (eng.)

Pobel (k.) = Pobol (cym.) = People (eng.)

I wonder what they'd think if someone just read out their text using Welsh pronounciation rules... [Yipee]

Of course, unless they have recordings of Cornish spoken by Cornish people 200 years ago (when there were still native speakers), any modern pronounciation is about as valid as the modern academic pronounciation of ancient Greek. [Biased] (you know, the one invented by Oxbridge academics to make sure it didn't sound anything like the clearly debased modern Greek language)

Gremlin

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ce
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# 1957

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quote:
Originally posted by Gremlin:
Wow, what a peculiar mixture of Welsh, and Old English. With a scattering of Scots too.

Some examples:
Mebyon (k.) = Meibion (cym.) = Brotherhood (eng.)

Pobel (k.) = Pobol (cym.) = People (eng.)

I wonder what they'd think if someone just read out their text using Welsh pronounciation rules... [Yipee]

Funny you should say that….
Some 15-20 years ago I was involved in cultural funding at a national level.
Some of the smarter Cornish arts groups discovered that there was easy money to be blagged from European “Celtic Fringe” funding sources. The local “independent basket weaving” rep in the South West, call her C…s, (Welsh and resident in Devon) approached me for some modest funding towards sending a raid/Cornish delegation to an “Association of Basketweaving in the Celtic-speaking Countries” conference in Brittany (and kindly offered me a place on their delegation).
I happened to have heard from a well-known “professional Welshman” involved in the organisation that a condition of membership was that a 15-minute presentation had to be given in the “national” language - “to keep the lowland Scots bastards from taking it over like they take over everything else” - according to him.
I enquired of C…s (who has since gone far) as to how we were going to get round this minor problem, as none of the Cornish delegation knew a word of Cornish.
“That’s o.k.” she said. “I’ll read it out like Welsh with a broad Devonian accent – no one in Cornwall knows how to pronounce it so they certainly won’t in Brittany.”
I had to leave the conference hall for an urgent appointment in the Bar during this little farce – paid off though.

ce

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ce

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Raspberry Rabbit

Will preach for food
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Good to see that Scottish Nationalism is not that much less interesting than Quebec nationalism.

Feels like home.

*yawn*

Raspberry Rabbit
Midlothian

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Gremlin:
Of course, unless they have recordings of Cornish spoken by Cornish people 200 years ago (when there were still native speakers), any modern pronounciation is about as valid as the modern academic pronounciation of ancient Greek.

Not quite - Breton, a near sister language, is still living, and Welsh isn't that much further away (linguistically - nearer in kilometres of course!)

Reconstructing Cornish might be like trying to reconstruct East Anglian English if we had living speakers of Geordie and Flemish to compare with written sources.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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musician

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When we were on holiday, Psyduck (Welsh speaker) could read Cornish, or at least decipher it, and similarly with Breton, although he couldn't find anyone to speak Breton. A lot of the folk said their parents spoke it and they understood the parents, but spoke French. Pity really to lose languages.
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Robert Armin

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# 182

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I have a friend who was a fervent Cornish nationlaist, who learnt how to speak the language. She claimed that, at the time it was revived, there were just two or three very old native speakers still alive who were interviewed extensively. She conceeded that was not the most reliable way to build up the entire language, but it does sound better than the picture painted here so far. Anyone know how sound this account is?

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PaulTH*
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# 320

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The greatest losers from Scottish nationalism are the Labour government. When John Smith was Labour leader, he claimed to believe passionately in the union. Its easy to see why. The massive victory which Tony Blair has won at two General Elections would have carried in England alone, notwithstanding Labour's massive majority in Wales and Scotland, but apart from Atlee's win in 1945, all othr Labour governments have depended entirely on their Scottish and Welsh support.

When the Tories finally come back from the doldrums, which they will, it will be, once again, as an English party. With a firm Labour majority, both at Westminster and in Edinburgh, there is little conflict. But imagine a scenario in which the Tories were in power at Westminster and either Labour, or SNP in Edinburgh. That's when the constitution will snap and Scottish independance will become a reality.

It is because of the way Labour depends on its Scottish vote for its Westminster majority that it refuses to deal with the West Lothian issue, which IMO unfairly disenfranchises the English, who make up the largest, by far, proportion of UK voters.

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Paul

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Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
It is because of the way Labour depends on its Scottish vote for its Westminster majority that it refuses to deal with the West Lothian issue, which IMO unfairly disenfranchises the English, who make up the largest, by far, proportion of UK voters.

Given that decisions about what happens in Scotland & Wales have for centuries been taken in England, by the English majority in MPs, I think it's only fair that Scottish & Welsh MPs should continue to have a vote on all matters in the Westminster Parliament, just the English ones do. [Razz]

Gremlin

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Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...
Oh I get it... like humour... but different.

Posts: 5221 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
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# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH:
the West Lothian issue, which IMO unfairly disenfranchises the English, who make up the largest, by far, proportion of UK voters.

In what way am I "disenfranchised" by having MPs from Lothian in Westminster that I am not disenfranchised by having MPs from Bradford in Westminster?

That the people of Lothian also have another parliament to which they elect members, but those of Yorkshire don't, makes no difference to me at all.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Chapelhead*

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# 1143

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In what way am I "disenfranchised" by having MPs from Lothian in Westminster that I am not disenfranchised by having MPs from Bradford in Westminster?

Because the MP from Bradford will be involved in passing laws that affect his own constituency. The MP from Lothian may not be, as laws affecting England and Wales will not affect his constituency.

It has always been the case in the past that a measure affecting Scotland only might have the support of a majority of MPs from Scottish constituencies but be defeated by a majority of English and Welsh MPs. This was a defect of the system, but as long as there was a single, supposedly united, Parliament was pretty much inevitable. Now we have a separate parliament in Scotland the system is perhaps less defensible.

IIRC the Secretary of State for Health at Westminster represents a Scottish constituency. But as the NHS in Scotland is the responsibility of the Scottish parliament anything he does regarding the NHS (in England and Wales) will not affect his constituents. So ‘our’ NHS is being run by a furringer who has no direct responsibility to his electors to do a good job.

Taxation without representation is tyranny. Chuck the tea in the harbour. Raise the militia. Rebellion.

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Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
I have a friend who was a fervent Cornish nationlaist, who learnt how to speak the language. She claimed that, at the time it was revived, there were just two or three very old native speakers still alive who were interviewed extensively. She conceeded that was not the most reliable way to build up the entire language, but it does sound better than the picture painted here so far. Anyone know how sound this account is?

Depends which revival you mean. The most common revived Cornish is based upon mediaeval Cornish, owing to the much larger corpus of literature to draw the vocabulary and grammar from. This would certainly not have been the Cornish that the last few native speakers spoke.

It's notable how much English there is borrowed into Cornish; this could only have become more and more as the language withered. What is interesting is how little Cornish there is in Cornish English, outside of place names.

Still, it was nice to see a houseboat the other year called "Chy dowr". For the Welsh out there, remember "ch" is pronounced like in English, and it should be pretty obvious.

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Old Hundredth
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# 112

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quote:
Originally posted by Zipporah:
As a Scot I always found it deeply insulting that our English neighbours used the British flag and national anthem (which represent all the British nations) as if they were exclusively the English flag and anthem alone - especially so when used at international events in which Scotland and Wales also take part. [Roll Eyes]


Good point - last year during strawberry season, I was bewildered by the fact that Scottish strawberries in the supermarkets were stickered with a Scottish flag but English ones with a Union flag. I kept saying that they should either put a St George's flag on the English ones if they had a St Andrew's flag on the Scottish ones, or put a Union flag on all British strawberries. I have a feeling there were some English flag stickers this year on the strawberries.

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Posts: 976 | From: The land of the barm cake | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Because the MP from Bradford will be involved in passing laws that affect his own constituency. The MP from Lothian may not be, as laws affecting England and Wales will not affect his constituency.

But neither of them have anything to do with me, and I voted for neither of them. Where's the democracy in that?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
However the traditional county bounderies still stand in law if not for local government.

No they don't. (Trust me - I'm a lawyer).

The only place where "traditional" counties exist at all anymore is for ceremonial purposes, and even that's not consistent. Thus, there are parts of geographical Yorkshire which are, for ceremonial purposes, parts of Durham because they became parts of unitary authorities carved out of Cleveland.

Consider also Halton District - a unitary authority made up of Runcorn (always in Cheshire) and Widnes (was in Lancs, then Cheshire) - part of Cheshire for ceremonial purposes even though half of its north of the Mersey.

Stockport hasn't been legally in Chesire for nearly 30 years, and in law the counties of Notts, Derbyshire and Devon have no responsibility or power over their county towns anymore.

In law Rutland is not a county at all - it's a District vested with county functions. Peterborough is ceremonially part of Cambridgeshire, though the latter has no jurisdiction whatsoever within the city.

The boundaries between local authorities only exist for the purposes of local government - there is no other reason for their existence. So there's no "traditional" county boundaries in law other than those created by the Local Government Acts 1972 and 1994 and subordinate legislation.

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Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rev per Minute
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# 69

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quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
IIRC the Secretary of State for Health at Westminster represents a Scottish constituency. But as the NHS in Scotland is the responsibility of the Scottish parliament anything he does regarding the NHS (in England and Wales) will not affect his constituents. So ‘our’ NHS is being run by a furringer who has no direct responsibility to his electors to do a good job.

Devolutionist tangent
The NHS in Wales is a 'devolved matter' - the National Assembly takes decisions on the running of the Health Service. So Dr John Reid makes decisions for England alone (aren't they lucky?)
/End tangent - being a pedantic so-and-so is a busy life... [Roll Eyes]

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At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Dyfrig - you're right (of course), but the 'real' counties, the traditional geographical ones, can't be changed by any stroke of the pen.

Thus the West Riding of Yorkshire ends at the Sheaf, the Meersbrook and the Shirebrook (what a surprise!) and always will. Derbyshire ends at Longdendale, and Black Hill is in Cheshire, whatever administrative and legal units may now bear those names.

Ludditically yours, from the West Riding of Yorkshire.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider:
and Black Hill is in Cheshire,

Black Hill is in three counties, the West Riding of Yorkshire, Derbyshire and Cheshire boundaries meeting at the top.

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