|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Hell: I am suspending my stance against the death penalty.
|
doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
A person does not forfeit all their rights on committing a crime, however heinous. They acquire a new and different set of rights, admirably set out in your constitution.
Thank you. Better and more succinctly said that I had managed.
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
|
Posted
texas.veggie... if I were living in Afghanistan under the Taliban and knew that leaving the house unescorted was a crime, I would have had to accept the consequences of acting against that law. Just like if I lived 100 years ago you can bet that I would have been repeatedly thrown in jail for attempting to vote and do all those other things that women couldn't do until the 20th century. It is a risk I'm willing to take.
If a law is not right by whatever ethic you use to measure it, does that mean that I am absolved from it even if I am fully aware of what the consequences are?
--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If a law is not right by whatever ethic you use to measure it, does that mean that I am absolved from it even if I am fully aware of what the consequences are?
Right, here, like thethinker earlier, you have strayed into the area of philosophy known as jurisprudence. This subject attempts to answer such questions as 'What is law?' and 'What are the moral claims of law?'. Answers to these questions have been hotly debated for centuries. The 'natural lawyers' of whom Aquinas was one, believed that 'what the law is' must be indissolubly bound up with 'what the law ought to be', and therefore must include a conception of moral truth. Others like Bentham and Austin look at the law in terms of political facts and utility, others, like Hart in terms of social function. Others, like Kelsen, divorce the idea of law from any moral content. A quick search on Google has thrown up no sites which actually contain any of the theories (only reading lists for courses). As an introduction, I would recommend 'Legal Philosophies' by J W Harries.
A good starting point for your question would be to consider the Nuremburg trials. Many of the accused were obeying the law in the State they lived in at the time of their alleged crimes. They were still found guilty. If they had refused to obey the law, would they have been morally culpable? In other words, is it just to disobey an unjust law? And what makes a law unjust?
--------------------
"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
|
Posted
This does seem to be going round in circles so I don't know if anyone's going to pay any attention to what I have to say but here goes:
Getting what you deserve: I hope we don't. We would, as someone said earlier, all be eyeless and toothless.
OK, maybe only people who make children suffer should get what they deserve. People who make children die horrible deaths.
Well, at the very least, that is all Western leaders and financiers, as well as all voters in countries that benefit from debt repayments:
see here
You didn't vote for them? Are you absolutely sure every piece of clothing you own was not made by children in sweat shops? Their development is not just being stunted because of the unsuitable work they are doing, but they are more at risk of physical and sexual abuse.
What are you personally doing to prevent children dying from malaria, HIV? If you feel personally involved in the death of a child to the extent that you are willing to consider killing and torturing someone who perpetrates that death, what are you doing to punish those that continue to ensure the spending on health in developed countries is nearly 100 times that in the poorest countries?
Stone, anyone?
--------------------
This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
|
Posted
I cannot believe that some of you are apparently equating the crime of kidnapping, raping, torturing and murdering a five-year old little girl with the "crime" of being jewish, being gay, being an unescorted Afghani woman.
The former is evil by virtually any definition ever used. The latter were criminalized within the context of specific legal regimes which have since been repudiated by most of us. With due respect to Erin's point about knowingly committing a crime, there is a fundamental difference between this case and your examples.
I wonder if your views on killing this prick would change if he was standing in front of you, if you knew that your child was his next victim?
scot
--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
|
Posted
I just don't buy the slippery slope argument.
Here we have a person who kidnapped, raped, tortured and asphyxiated a five-year-old girl. He left her body on the side of the road to be picked over by animals. Now, I am fairly liberal on a lot of issues and in some of my theology, but I firmly believe that there IS such a thing as evil, and the person responsible for this is its incarnation. What he did to this little girl is evil by every definition of the word -- theological, ethical, moral and social. I am not a universalist. I believe that pure evil like this will burn forever.
--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
texas.veggie... if I were living in Afghanistan under the Taliban and knew that leaving the house unescorted was a crime, I would have had to accept the consequences of acting against that law. Just like if I lived 100 years ago you can bet that I would have been repeatedly thrown in jail for attempting to vote and do all those other things that women couldn't do until the 20th century. It is a risk I'm willing to take.
If a law is not right by whatever ethic you use to measure it, does that mean that I am absolved from it even if I am fully aware of what the consequences are?
like i said. cross-purposes.
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
|
Posted
regarding the death penalty, and the murder of children.
this is what i found to be valid and true for me, in regards to what specifically happened in my family.
on nov. 30, 1999, at aprox. 2 am, the husband of my cousin barbara woke up, got out a handgun, and put two bullets through barbaras head, killing her instantly, apparently in her sleep.
he then proceeded into the hall. the noise had apparently woken up their 13 year old daughter, carrie. he shot her twice, wounding her only, apparently paniced, continued shooting, reloaded and shot again, for a total of seven shots to the head and chest. it took her about a minute to die.
for several hours he then got drunk, painted the inside of the garage windows black and sealed it with the intention of running the car and killing himself, chickened out, and eventually turned himself in by calling the police.
i heard later that day. there was a profound numbness and shock.
the family gathered for the funerals, barbaras parents, survivng siblings, our other aunt and uncle, other cousins, my brother, me. we cursed, we cried, we raged. we discussed the death penalty, and life in prison, and what we'd want to do to him. we all pretty much agreed we didn't want the death penalty.
about a week later, for me, the real rage set in. i began to realize what i really wanted to do to him. i'm not proud of this, but here it is: i wanted to, with my own hands, smash his head against a concrete wall over and over, until blood flowed and he was lying on the floor. then i wanted to kick the remains til they stopped twitching. then spit on them. thats what i wanted.
but i realized something. for me, that was wrong. it made me as dirty and as monsterous as him. it made me unclean to feel that way. for me, the only thing i could do was to let go of that rage. i can't tell you how i did it. i don't know. its not forgiveness exactly. i can't forgive him. its a refusal to let myself descend to his level even in thought.
by mutual decision of barbaras closest family,he was allowed to plead guilty and avoid a trial in exchange for life without parole.
--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
nicolemrw, I have much respect for you
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
|
Posted
Might as well weigh in.
To make this post sufficiently Hellish, here is a small, appropriate smilie:
---> ![[Flaming]](graemlins/angryfire.gif) <---
There.
I do think that people who do what this man did deserve the death penalty. They may even, possibly, deserve death by torture, but our legal system does not allow that.
I don't think, however, that even if they deserve death by torture, that this makes any human being nonhuman, whether "rights" (natural or legal-fiction) are involved or not.
do believe that Christians are not permitted to actually hate, extremely difficult though this is, but that's part of the whole "sin" thing. And that using the death penalty, without hating the person being executed, is the perfectly correct thing to do as a society when a person commits deliberate murder.
I think we ought to be careful letting the sheer horror of what this man has done tempt us into a sort of masturbatory hatred. It's horrific, yes -- but that can make it very easily to treat it as a form of emotional pornography, because we have what seems an excuse to excite not our pity for the girl, nor a genuine thirst for true, deserved justice (and make no mistake, I think the man deserves death), but all those impulses to hatred which we don't let out in our life otherwise.
I believe we must try, even if it's difficult, perhaps especially if it's difficult, to pray that the man see what he has done and repent, and make a good end even as he's about to be electrocuted/hanged/shot/etc. If we really want him to be not only dead, but damned -- then I think there's something wrong. And I think we must both wish and work for justice to be done (and the outrage can indeed be fuel for that, not only for hatred) -- and be very careful that his crime does not lead to other horrors in each of our own lives by our dwelling on it and each becoming just a bit less Christlike. We could say, "You're not going to win" to both him and our spiritual enemies (the real monsters in this world we're to fight) -- "You're not going to win. You will be given justice. But we will not let you tempt us to hate you."
Has anyone read Neil Gaiman's story arc, "The Doll's House," in which the Lord of Dreams confronts a host of serial killers? It's the best serial killer story I've ever read, partly because it shows so clearly the ultimate banality of evil.
quote:
And YOU, you that call yourselves collectors. Until now, you have all sustained fantasies in which you are the maltreated heroes of your own stories. Comforting daydreams in which, ultimately, you are shown to be in the right. No more. For all of you, the dream is over. I have taken it away. For this is my judgment on you: that you shall know, at all times, and forever, exactly what you are. And you shall know just how LITTLE that means.
Neil Gaiman - The Sandman: The Doll's House
I suppose I should get back to work now, but I thought this needed to be said.
Oh, feh. It wouldn't be a Long Rambly ChastMastr Post™ if it didn't have a quotation from C.S. Lewis, would it?
Here y'go. I live to please.
quote:
Hatred we can manage. . . . If conscience resists, muddle him. Let him say that he feels hatred not on his own behalf but on that of the women and children, and that a Christian is told to forgive his own, not other people's enemies. In other words let him consider himself sufficiently identified with the women and children to feel hatred on their behalf, but not sufficiently identified to regard their enemies as his own and therefore proper objects of forgiveness.
--From, not surprisingly, The Screwtape Letters
David
Back to work now! *crack!*
--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Atticus
Shipmate
# 2212
|
Posted
I'm with Erin. in principle.
The main thrust of the argument seems to be that "thank God we don't all get what we deserve." I say, thank god sometimes we do. We seem to get a bit less than we deserve. Less praise when we are good, less shit when we deserve that... Well, a quick an painless death is a far cry from what this man inflicted on that little girl. We should all be so lucky as to get that much less than we deserve.
But as long as we're working on that principle, wouldn't it be nice if we didn't give anyone what they deserved. When someone was mean or nasty or just in general poopey we could give them gifts and throw them a party, so that then they wouldn't be so mean anymore.
Give it up folks. Life in prison isn't much more merciful than the death penalty anyhow.
Now step away from the principle and to the practical.
I'm not saying this man didn't do what he's accused of. But our present judicial system, and even our present forensic science is not enough to condemn a man to die. There are always people being released from death row with new evidence coming out (not having their sentence reduced, mind you, they are being RELEASED). Even DNA evidence only places someone at the scene of a crime, not actually performing the crime itself. WE cannot and do not know all. Let's not suspend the death penalty, even for this one.
(But if some zealous vigilante wants to take him out, by all means, I'll buy you a gun)
Posts: 321 | From: off the deep end | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
gandalf35
Shipmate
# 934
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
For what criminal behaviors are there proven remedies, and what are those remedies?
Please be specific.
Moo
Well after I posted i went on a search of my old Psych notes and was unable to find them, (Psychology was my major in college, w/ an emphasis on abnormal behavior). That said I will tell what I remember on the subject. between 1979 and 1989 approx. Several different Universities were doing studies on treatment for a number of different criminal behaviors. What they found was they could treat these people with a combination of intensive in-patient B Mod., C.T., and intensive out-patient follow up.
The recidivism rates were very low (in the range of 9-13% as opposed to 76-83%), but the cost of putting everyone in prison into such a extreem program (24 hour monitoring) was staggering as I'm sure you can imagine. This made implementation impossable.
If you would like I can PM the figures to you when I'm able to find them.
[well your minor wasn't UBB code]
[ 24 July 2002, 12:37: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
Posts: 185 | From: If hell exists, I live there. | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
gandalf35
Shipmate
# 934
|
Posted
Sorry about the double post,
This included serial rapests, and pedophiles.
--------------------
Life is like a bowl of cherries... Mmmm cherries...
Posts: 185 | From: If hell exists, I live there. | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
|
Posted
Impressive results, but a 13% recidivism rate for pedophiles is unacceptable imho.
scot
--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
|
Posted
So we should put all paedophiles to death because 13% might reoffend if released, rather than imprisoning all of them?
What was that about rejoicing over one lost coin? I don't think God particularly operates on the "ah, sod all of them, because a small proportion of them might not be saveable" principle.
--------------------
This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
|
Posted
Thank you so much for posting your story, Nicolemrw. You deserve the greatest respect.
I am absolutely with you when you said 'It's a refusal to let myself descend to his level even in thought'.
I don't think it could be put better.
--------------------
"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ginga
Ship's lurker
# 1899
|
Posted
Not living in a country where the death penalty is an option I tend to operate in a nice cosy world where refining my opinion on the matter is simply a useful exercise in brain work. My general view tends to be "humans good; death penalty bad". This, of course, goes straight out the window the instant someone proves the former part of the equation to be false. At that stage I then start thinking about it all again and end up thoroughly confused and have to go and make a cup of tea.
The one thing that usually sways me back into my 'anti' stance though is the thought of the people who's job it is to carry out the executions. That includes those who impose the sentences, but I'm thinking particularly of the researches who refine the chemical cocktails, or design the chairs, as well as those that actually push the plunger or throw the switch. I'm usually quite happy for people to do jobs I would hate so that I can have a nice life - until very recently I was a committed meat-eater, but I'd have baulked at the thought of entering an abbattoir - but in this case I'm really not happy about the people who make their living out of execution - even if their main aim is to make it as quick and painless as possible.
I remember the day Timothy McVeigh was killed thinking "some guy's going to bed tonight with another dead man on his tally". I just can't see how it can be healthy for them.
Or am I being naive?
Incidentally - thanks Chukovsky for reminding me that I can't necessarily believe myself better than those who overtly cause such pain and suffering.
Posts: 1075 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Several different Universities were doing studies on treatment for a number of different criminal behaviors. What they found was they could treat these people with a combination of intensive in-patient B Mod., C.T., and intensive out-patient follow up.
I'm ready to bet that the subjects of these studies wanted to change. If someone doesn't want to change there's not much you can do short of brain-washing.
I have major problems with people who say that it's the job of the criminal justice system to rehabilitate people. One person cannot rehabilitate another. It has to be a do-it-yourself project.
The criminal justice system can create an environment that makes it easier for someone to rehabilitate himself, but the criminal has to do the work, and many of them don't want to. They're satisfied with themselves the way they are.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Porter-Miller
Tiocfaidh Separabit
# 1459
|
Posted
I'm posting this here, because I don't know where to put it and it is making me rather angry the entire situation in the Middle East.
Front Page Photo
--------------------
It's a beautiful day - don't let it get away - Bono and the boys
Let's all "Release Some Tension"
Posts: 1231 | From: Washington, D.C. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
blackbird
Shipmate
# 1387
|
Posted
i'll have a stone, please.
you may not want to consider yourself "better" than rapists, ginga, but hopefully you consider yourself safer. i think that's what the goal is.
last week a woman stopped into a burger king off the highway in the wee hours of the morning to use the rest room because it was well-lighted. she was on her way home to newport, ri. when she came out of the bathroom, the cook (a convicted rapist who had gotten out on parole and lied on his job application) was waiting for her with a four inch knife. he was not lucky. after he stabbed her repeatedly in the neck and watched her die in the stall, a state trooper happened in to the use the bathroom. he told the trooper "i just lost it."
that woman was something of a socialite, though, and she probably wore sweatshop-produced clothes. so maybe she was just as guilty as the man who sliced her life away. maybe he was doing God's work. i'll just bet samantha runnion had a teddy bear made by hiv infected children.
Posts: 1236 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ginga:
The one thing that usually sways me back into my 'anti' stance though is the thought of the people who's job it is to carry out the executions. That includes those who impose the sentences, but I'm thinking particularly of the researches who refine the chemical cocktails, or design the chairs, as well as those that actually push the plunger or throw the switch. I'm usually quite happy for people to do jobs I would hate so that I can have a nice life - until very recently I was a committed meat-eater, but I'd have baulked at the thought of entering an abbattoir - but in this case I'm really not happy about the people who make their living out of execution - even if their main aim is to make it as quick and painless as possible.
I remember the day Timothy McVeigh was killed thinking "some guy's going to bed tonight with another dead man on his tally". I just can't see how it can be healthy for them.
Or am I being naive?
It is just a job. Other people have distasteful jobs as well. It is a matter of "If you can't handle it, find a different job." For example, I could never be in the medical profession, a mortician or a police officer. You have to look at your job or profession objectively. Some people would not make good defense lawyers or good tax auditors, that doesn't mean those who are don't sleep well at night because of some of the results of their choice of profession.
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
|
Posted
quote:
Incidentally - thanks Chukovsky for reminding me that I can't necessarily believe myself better than those who overtly cause such pain and suffering.
I have no problem thinking myself better than a child molesting murderer, because I am.
--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ginga
Ship's lurker
# 1899
|
Posted
It's a job I feel uncomfortable about inflicting on other people. Just a gut feeling really. I'm a lot happy about the death penalty when I think of it as just involving the condemned and ignore those people for whom it is a livelhood.
That was quite harsh babybear. I was just interested to note that until chukovsky posted her post I'd been swimming along with an attitude of 'I'm ok I'm perfect'. I'm well aware of the difficulties of trying to live a harmless life and was not trying to necessarily bring them up here.
Posts: 1075 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Incidentally - thanks Chukovsky for reminding me that I can't necessarily believe myself better than those who overtly cause such pain and suffering.
I have no problem thinking myself better than a child molesting murderer, because I am.
I don't think I am better than a child molesting murderer. But I have behaved better. Surely that's the difference between what you are and what you do?
--------------------
"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
|
Posted
But weren't you just arguing a few posts back that by sanctioning the death penalty for what someone does, we're well on our way to persecuting them for who they are? Are you now saying there's a difference between the two?
And yes: I AM better than someone who thinks that kidnaping, raping, torturing and asphyxiating a five year old girl is a way to pass the time.
--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
|
Posted
Dang it...I have been to Newport, RI. I can't picture that! I was hoping the lady lived somehow...how awful.
I glad the state trooper nabbed him. Death penalty!
My brother thinks everyone should "pack some heat". He brings up the Fanatic who got shot dead cold after killing 2 people by the agents at the Israel Airline. All the agents "pack some heat" and prevent further killings. If we all brought a gun with us, crazy rapists would think twice about pulling stunts like that.
--------------------
♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
So we should put all paedophiles to death because 13% might reoffend if released, rather than imprisoning all of them?
What was that about rejoicing over one lost coin? I don't think God particularly operates on the "ah, sod all of them, because a small proportion of them might not be saveable" principle.
Given the extraordinarily high recidivism rate among child molesters, I am uncomfortable with returning them to the general population. If you will go back and read gandalf35's post you will see that the 13% rate was achieved by an extreme treatment. The "normal" rate cited was as high as 83%. By the way, an 83% recidivism rate does not mean that 83% may reoffend - it means that 83% will reoffend.
If you don't have a problem with this concept, then perhaps you should put your money (and children) where your mouth is and open your home to newly released child molesters. No? Hmmm.
If you will go back and read my posts you will see that I never advocated the death penalty for all child molesters. Only the ones who kidnap, torture and murder their children. The others (who only abuse, rape, torment and leave lifelong psychological scars) can simply be locked up forever.
scot
--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
My brother thinks everyone should "pack some heat".
That is one way to go. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I would hate to think that most people I come in contact with have a loaded gun on them (some people don't like me very much).
I'll pass, thanks. I don't think I could handle carrying one myself. I also suspect that there are others like me.
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
I have been avoiding posting on this thread because I find it too upsetting. The crimes are horrible. But the idea that any person is a 'monster' is more horrible still. That way lies the gas chamber filled with homosexuals, gypsies and Jews. That way lies the regime lead by the Taliban.
Utter bullshit. Or are you, unlike the rest of us, really unable to tell the difference between who someone is and the crimes they commit?
In my reply to that post, I agreed with you that there was a difference between what you are and what you do but pointed out that many people slip easily from 'some homosexuals pervert the young and spread horrible diseases (allegedly)' to 'all homosexuals are by definition evil'. It is one reason why we have to be so careful not to give an inch on the human rights front.
I am a sinner capable of the most loathesome evil. One of the reasons I don't even like thinking about this area is that it brings those dark, horrible wells of evil within me to my notice. By the grace of God, I have not yet committed any crime like murder. But I'm not going to congratulate myself on my own righteousness until I'm safely in heaven! I would not presume to judge what you are. That is entirely between you and God.
--------------------
"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
blackbird
Shipmate
# 1387
|
Posted
just for the record, i believe you found me harsh, ginga, not babybear.
Posts: 1236 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ginga:
That was quite harsh babybear.
Um, I haven't even read this thread. I was looking at the 'recent postings' and saw my name come up. It wasn't me I tell you!
I was framed!
bb
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
babybear couldn't be harsh if she tried.
signed, Chorister
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
blackbird
Shipmate
# 1387
|
Posted
calm ya livers, you guys! i already confessed to being the harsh one. sheesh, you're not even americans...how can you hope to be harsh.
meanwhile, duchess, here's a bit of a description of the zapp incident (not meaning to derail the thread) zapp murder
i have learned to shoot guns, duchess (at a target) and enjoy it...it's a power thing...but i'd never want to own one. you see, i know how harsh i am ![[Wink]](wink.gif) . if someone did this to one of my daughters, however, you can be certain you would REALLY see me harsh.
Posts: 1236 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
|
Posted
blackbird...that link made me cry. Such a waste. Especially the part about her fighting for her life.
--------------------
♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
That is one way to go. I would hate to think that most people I come in contact with have a loaded gun on them (some people don't like me very much).
I'll pass, thanks. I don't think I could handle carrying one myself. I also suspect that there are others like me.
All the others like you are in CANADA. It ain't as violent there.
--------------------
♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
|
Posted
quote:
All the others like you are in CANADA. It ain't as violent there.
no, many of us are in new york city.
--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Miller:
I'm posting this here, because I don't know where to put it and it is making me rather angry the entire situation in the Middle East.
Front Page Photo
I agree with you. The cutline to the photo has the dead baby's age wrong, though: she was only two months old when they dropped the bomb on her home.
Perhaps we need to start a new thread on that one? The topic is certainly Hellish enough.
Rossweisse // who has trouble dealing with slaughtered infants (and the people capable of slaughtering them), regardless of race, creed, nationality, etc.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
gandalf35
Shipmate
# 934
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Several different Universities were doing studies on treatment for a number of different criminal behaviors. What they found was they could treat these people with a combination of intensive in-patient B Mod., C.T., and intensive out-patient follow up.
I'm ready to bet that the subjects of these studies wanted to change. If someone doesn't want to change there's not much you can do short of brain-washing.
I have major problems with people who say that it's the job of the criminal justice system to rehabilitate people. One person cannot rehabilitate another. It has to be a do-it-yourself project.
The criminal justice system can create an environment that makes it easier for someone to rehabilitate himself, but the criminal has to do the work, and many of them don't want to. They're satisfied with themselves the way they are.
Moo
As I remember it it did include a sort of brain washing, but with most studies like this, the impetus was more likely the promise of a shorter prison sentence.
I never said it was the job of the CJS to rehabilitate. I just wish they wouldnt call it that. Here they have a State Prison with the title SATF (substance abuse treatment facility). The recidivism rate is about as high as any other crime.
For the record, I am pro death penalty for extreme cases. As I said before, "Don't drag Jesus into it".
Posts: 185 | From: If hell exists, I live there. | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
What I particularly noticed in the Zapp story was what depresses me in so many of those incidences - the guy had attacked somebody before, got locked up, but then released again. Isn't there somewhere these chaps can be sent, locked away permanently to form their own crazed community (to what use are all those old redundant mental hospitals being put, these days?) and at least leaving the rest of society a safer place for people to live and move freely?
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
What I particularly noticed in the Zapp story was what depresses me in so many of those incidences - the guy had attacked somebody before, got locked up, but then released again. Isn't there somewhere these chaps can be sent, locked away permanently to form their own crazed community (to what use are all those old redundant mental hospitals being put, these days?) and at least leaving the rest of society a safer place for people to live and move freely?
From the public safety angle, this would be the ideal solution. I have problems with the ethics of it, though.
I have a friend who is involved in prison ministry, and he's convinced that life-without-parole sentences are much worse than the death penalty. He's not in favor of releasing predators into the community, but he says that it's terrible to be a thirty year old man with nothing to look forward to for the rest of your life.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
birdie
fowl
# 2173
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
to what use are all those old redundant mental hospitals being put, these days?
they're being converted into luxury apartments.
b
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
<snip> ...he says that it's terrible to be a thirty year old man with nothing to look forward to for the rest of your life.
Moo
I agree! However, I feel even worse for his victims.
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
<snip> ...he says that it's terrible to be a thirty year old man with nothing to look forward to for the rest of your life.
Moo
I agree! However, I feel even worse for his victims.
I agree with the sentiment about the victims, Sharkshooter - but not where the perpetrator is concerned.
If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Or is that just me being over-simplistic?
--------------------
Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
I agree with the sentiment about the victims, Sharkshooter - but not where the perpetrator is concerned.
If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime
Or is that just me being over-simplistic?
I certainly agree with your comments about paying the price. But I still think it is a terrible future for a young man (not that I would have any sympathy for him). I just think the price for murder should be execution. It solves the problem of the 30-year-old who has 50 years to spend in prison before he dies. It also solves the problem of someone getting out and re-offending. It works for me.
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
[QUOTE] But I still think it is a terrible future for a young man (not that I would have any sympathy for him). I just think the price for murder should be execution. It solves the problem of the 30-year-old who has 50 years to spend in prison before he dies. It also solves the problem of someone getting out and re-offending. It works for me.
I agree with you.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
|
Posted
it doesn't, owever, solve the problem of someone whos executed and then found to be innocent 17 years later.
if they've been in prison for 17 years, they can be released (as in fact just happened, which is why i picked 17 years). bit hard to do that if the person's dead.
--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
You are right, of course, nicolemrw.
I however view this life as the first small step in our existence. Death is just the passing into our eternal home. So, whether someone dies too early is irrelevant. Not that we should not vigorously ensure that the death penalty is deserved before being carried out, but I do not have a problem with the rare mistake - it will all be so insignificant in heaven (or hell as the case may be).
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
tomb
Shipmate
# 174
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
You are right, of course, nicolemrw.
I however view this life as the first small step in our existence. Death is just the passing into our eternal home. So, whether someone dies too early is irrelevant. Not that we should not vigorously ensure that the death penalty is deserved before being carried out, but I do not have a problem with the rare mistake - it will all be so insignificant in heaven (or hell as the case may be).
(Posting as a Shipmate, not as a host) What an astonishing comment! I daresay, sharkshooter, that you might feel differently if you were one of the "rare" mistakes (which, as American jurisprudence is discovering, aren't so rare, God help us).
But if, as you say, "death is the passing from this life into our eternal home," then it follows that you should be against the death penalty so that the offender will have the greatest opportunity to repent of his sins in this life and thus be able to enter into that larger life in the presence of God, as opposed to entering into the larger death of hell.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
The condemmed will certainly have at least one (and probably many more) chance prior to the execution. That should be enough.
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Heart]](graemlins/heartpump.gif)
