I had assumed it was a historical hangover from when church going was practically compulsory. It would have been used to stop people from skiving half the service and coming in late - however when they come late now they just hammer on the door until the beadle lets them in!

It probably survives because it also allows the beadle to act as a 'bouncer' with people out of their heads on drugs/alcohol and tourists who want to come in and snap away during a service.

I know there's an argument for just letting 'em wander in, but I can also see that not everyone can cope with those types of 'guests', so I guess that's why it persists.

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Originally posted by daisymay:
What about locked doors? The kirk we attended when I was a child used to keep the doors open till the end of the first psalm and then the door was locked. To minimise distractions? It also happened in Baptist churches in Scotland, as my partner was furious when on arriving late, they could not get into the service. (Dundee). And on weekdays, the kirk was always locked, not for safety, but because the congregation were expected to carry on worship at home. The kirk building itself, like the water, bread and wine, was not special except insofar as it was being used for congregational gatherings. it was large only for convenience.

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Any students of Scottish ecclesiastical history? If not, I'll ask my Dad when he come back from holiday.

Attendance based membership

The idea is that if you don't turn up to a communion service for a few months (and remember, only one service in four is communion), your membership may be revoked.

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Originally posted by Wood:
Is this common or not?

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Nope, the easiest way to get off the membership in a Presby church is by dying.

The Covenanters held illegal communions, but they held them in the open air - with armed guards looking out for the dragoons coming over the hills to get them. So there were no doors to lock.

This was the basis for the Cameronian Regiment's tradition of celebrating a 'conventicle' service once a year with guards to watch out for the enemy - but I'm pretty sure they didn't lock the doors.

I once met an ex-soldier on the train who told me that being the only Catholic in the regiment (in whatever merger it had gone into), he always got the job of being the sentry - so he didn;t have to attend the service.

Sounded like a nice compromise to me!

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Originally posted by babybear:
Nope, the easiest way to get off the membership in a Presby church is by dying.

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1. The primary decoration in the church was a large, elaborately-framed portrait of a blond, curly-haired Jesus gazing into a warm light

2. The congregants were asked to sign attendance sheets midway through the service that were kept in little red books

3. I was most disappointed in the baptism not be asked to renounce the devil.

some comments...

1. yeuck

2. yeuck

3. Bet you did it anyway.

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Originally posted by babybear:

3. Bet you did it anyway.

bb

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You know me so well. Muttered "the devil" under my breath.

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Hooker's trick said:
Also -- it was a mattins service, but only the Gospel was read -- no other lessons. Is this normal?

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whether we use 'little cups' or a chalice, wine/grape juice we are short of the original - the original "last supper" was part of a full blown meal and not just a sip of wine and a smigin of bread.

If we wanted to be 'authentic' then red wine and unleaven bread at the end of a good meal would be best.

There is no need to 'consecrate' what was/is normal food - there is also no need for an official person vicar/deacon - any christian in "good standing" will do.

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sometimes we mystify an veryday activity such as sharing a meal and remembering the sacrifice of Christ

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only the gospel was read

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I had a similar experience that Daisymay had in Kathmandu in Haitian churches - the practice of everybody praying all at the same time out loud, individually. The first time I experienced that I was completely overwhelmed and didn't have a clue as to what was going on. Then I got used to it, and joined in myself.

As for other bizarre practices, one thing about Haitian churches is that they never start on time. If I was told that church started at 9 am, I learned to automatically translate that into 10 am in my head. One time I showed up for church about 30 minutes "late" and I was the only person there - the pastor showed up maybe fifteen minutes later.

One really irritating bizarre practice, but one you learn to live with (or at least you learn to avoid churches when you know they brought in a generator for a service) is the way they'll do the accompaniment. Most of the time, there's no electrity (in the rural churches anyway) so all the singing is unaccompanied. But for special occasions, they will bring in a generator. And that means electric guitars, drums and keyboards. Now, don't get me wrong - I have no problems with such instruments being used in a worship service. But at all the services that I attended that had such instruments, you can tell that the musicians are winging it - figuring out the chords and keys on the job.

See, what happens is that when a church is having a special "fete", a million singing groups are invited to sing during the service (well, maybe not a million, but that is what it feels like especially after you have been sitting on torturous benches for two hours or more!). Now, some of these singing groups are amazing - really wonderful singing, harmonies, etc.... So, they start singing and you have maybe a few seconds of these heavenly voices, and then the musicians come in - but first they have to find the right chords - so they twangle around for quite some time until they hit the right chord. Then they need to get the tempo right - oooh and if the singers change keys or tempo - it all starts all over again! I honestly don't know how the singers keep singing their songs with all this going on, but they're used to it. But after going through several of those, I just tried to avoid churches that had a generator that Sunday (although that did mean missing the really good food that was always served after the fete).

AnnieS

closed doors -- to keep out the unbelievers/notorious sinners etc. Remember that only very recently has there been any idea that communion was a right or that an open table was acceptable. Most denominations from RC to Lutherans and Presbyterians guarded the purity of their altaars/table fellowships with great zeal -- in fact many still do. I know a Lutheran who is not even allowed by his leaders to share communion with other Lutherans because they are WRONG about somethiing or other.

what the sacrament is -- like a lot of people (the majority of Christians, if you think that matters) I believe that what happens in the Eucharist does do something to the bread and wine. I haven't a clue what that is or how it happens. Nor do I think it matters a whole lot what I or anyone else, however qualified, might suggest about what or how.

But it is clear that the Greek word used for remember (anamnesis) does not mean just remember as in, remember the wonderful holiday we had last year, but smoething like entering in a real sense (not symbolic or metaphorical sense) into the actual experience in question. So the eucharist cannot be just a memorial as we use the word today.

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Originally posted by Dyfrig:
The bizarrest practice these Protestants have is their gathering together in sincerity to worship God - Father, Son and Spirit - in faithfulness and love. I mean, these people sometimes do it without a choir! How bizarre is that?! Coh!

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Now, now, Dyfrig.

Now, on to the other things:

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CorgiGreta:I detest the rather widespread Protestant practice of humiliating visitors during worship by singling them out and engaging in some kind of public introduction. I would rather endure a thousand passings of the peace than be subjected to such embarrassment.

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Actually, I wish we did do the peace. I've always found it profound and important, if done sincerely.

As for the public introduction thing - the secret is in 'widespread'. IE, not everywhere. It tends to be 'new evangelicals' (you know, the more charismatic ones) who do this around here.

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The Dude: Also -- it was a mattins service, but only the Gospel was read -- no other lessons. Is this normal?

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In our church, there's normally the one reading. Because of the traditional horror of stuff like lectionaries, that can be anything from the Scripture.

It's up to the leadership to keep things consistent yet varied week after week.

Basically, what Daisymay said.

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CorgiGreta again: Even more bizarre is "the altar call" (an altar in a Protestant church?). I once wandered into the back row of a small Protestant church, where I'm sure I was the only visitor.

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Not a protestant tradition - an evangelical one. You have to remember that 'protestant' and 'evangelical' are not necessarily cognate.

And apart from really scary places (and big events like Spring Harvest), they actually tend to be fairly rare.

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Steve Birks: Re: Communion
whether we use 'little cups' or a chalice, wine/grape juice we are short of the original - the original "last supper" was part of a full blown meal and not just a sip of wine and a smidgen of bread. If we wanted to be 'authentic' then red wine and unleaven bread at the end of a good meal would be best. There is no need to 'consecrate' what was/is normal food - there is also no need for an official person vicar/deacon - any christian in "good standing" will do. Sometimes we 'mystify' an everyday activy such as sharing a meal and remembering the sacrifice of Christ.

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Welcome, Steve - Not met you before. Anyway, that's how I understood it, too.

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Annie S (welcome!) I had a similar experience that Daisymay had in Kathmandu in Haitian churches - the practice of everybody praying all at the same time out loud, individually. The first time I experienced that I was completely overwhelmed and didn't have a clue as to what was going on. Then I got used to it, and joined in myself.

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This is becoming increasingly common among charismatic evangelicals, although it was happening when I first became a Christian seven years ago.

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John Holding: what the sacrament is -- like a lot of people (the majority of Christians, if you think that matters) I believe that what happens in the Eucharist does do something to the bread and wine. I haven't a clue what that is or how it happens. Nor do I think it matters a whole lot what I or anyone else, however qualified, might suggest about what or how.

But it is clear that the Greek word used for remember (anamnesis) does not mean just remember as in, remember the wonderful holiday we had last year, but smoething like entering in a real sense (not symbolic or metaphorical sense) into the actual experience in question. So the eucharist cannot be just a memorial as we use the word today.

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But then, we would consider the corporate act to be a sufficient anamnesis. Tell you what, if anyone wants to discuss the theology of communion, best to start a thread in Purgatory.

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Originally posted by John Holding:
Most denominations from RC to Lutherans and Presbyterians guarded the purity of their altaars/table fellowships with great zeal -- in fact many still do. I know a Lutheran who is not even allowed by his leaders to share communion with other Lutherans because they are WRONG about somethiing or other.

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Not a protestant tradition - an evangelical one. You have to remember that 'protestant' and 'evangelical' are not necessarily cognate.

And apart from really scary places (and big events like Spring Harvest), they actually tend to be fairly rare.

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I was left wonering if he felt he'd yammered on too long and ought to wrap it up so that we could be out of there in an hour, or if the call is just printed every week but no one goes up.

I ought to mention that the tiny choir wore choir robes, the windows were painted glass, there were lights and a cross on the holy table, and other familiar elements.

Of course, there was also no centre aisle, there was a large collection of electronic equipment and musical instruments plugged into things in the corner (these were not used), and I was surprised when I collected a pile of prayer books to bring to our pew to discover that they were not prayer books at all but Bibles!

Quote: "The sermon was unbelievably lo-o-o-o-ong, but at its conclusion the pastor ... omitted any reference to the "altar call".

I have heard that on the inside of the pulpit at Harvard Memorial Church, there is a large plaque inscribed with the words: "No souls are saved after the first fifteen minutes." Perhaps the pastor realized that he had grossly violated this universal rule.

As far as I know altar calls are quite common in the U.S. especially among Methodists (as H.T. observed), Baptists (including the rather liberal and bland mainline American Baptist Convention), pentecostals, and "evangelicals" (of which we have myriad denominations). I should also point out that my impression is that in the U.S., evangelicals tend to be much more hard-edged and pushier (no offense intended - can't think of a better word} than their counterparts in the U.K., but that may be a general cultural, rather than religious, phenomenon.

I would be interested to know about those "scary places". Perhaps they follow the American approach? Twist an arm for Jesus?

{sorry for all the parentheticals - just woke up)

I am reminded of an incident illustrating how to set oneself up for failure. I visted an evangelical church, where just before the altar call, the minister casually mentioned that for forty years his father issued an altar call at every service, and no one ever came foreward. Like father, like son, apparently.

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2. The congregants were asked to sign attendance sheets midway through the service that were kept in little red books

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I would like to talk about how those red books are used in my Lutheran congregation.

1. Attendance, in a numerical sense.

2. The instructions printed on the sheets (often ignored; maybe I'm the only compulsive person who has read them!) say to fill out your name, and if visiting your address and church affiliation (if any), THEN to pass the books back to the starting point. The idea is that each person will thereby learn the name of everyone else in the row. I have often surprised newcomers by calling them by name after the service and offering the nickel tour of the building and grounds.

3. After the service, each red book sheet is read and visitors who live locally (within 30 miles or so) are identified. Then a band of volunteers, on a rotation, pick up their maps of the city and counties nearby and hand-deliver a loaf of bread in the name of the church.

The first time I visited, I had business in Indianapolis that afternoon (probably something at my Dad's house) and my sons and I left immediately after church. My husband was at home and very surprised to get a visit from one of the church members, homemade bread in hand, with brochures about the church's programs. She came about 2 p.m. or so.

I have since found out that this ministry has been active for at least 20 years!

The altar call is often accompanied by the singing of a hymn; "Just as I am" is a favorite for this occasion, as is "There is a balm in Gilead" or "Amazing Grace."

Mind you, in some branches of Anglo-Catholicism, laying-on of hands is quite a standard proceedure. I am thinking specifically of healing ministries at a couple of churches I know, where at the end of a low mass, people are invited to approach the altar rail and either be prayed for and annointed with oil (if they're sick) or to pray for and be annointed on behalf of someone who is sick.

To be honest, in spite of my extreme proddy background (or perhaps because it was so corset-like!), I have never really attended a service which had a altar call of the variety we are referring to here...

It's the kind of thing associated with Billy Graham's Crusades. But not exclusive to him of course.

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Wood,

I am reminded of an incident illustrating how to set oneself up for failure. I visted an evangelical church, where just before the altar call, the minister casually mentioned that for forty years his father issued an altar call at every service, and no one ever came foreward. Like father, like son, apparently.

Greta

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Ouch!

We only have them once in a blue moon, fortunately.

Worse than an altar call is the 'show of hands' thing, where everybody is made to stheir eyes and anyone who wants to be saved puts their hand up and the minister goes, 'thank you... thank you sir, thank you... you can put your hand down now...'

This was the standard practise in an Elim Pentecostal church in Edinburgh. Sometimes people were invited to come up to the front, sometimes to raise their hands. I have only ever seen this done in a CofS church during a Billy Graham rally. But it has been fairly common practise in pentecostal or charismatic churches.

The service itself was very freestyle. Various elders and deacons sat at the front, around a table with a bread roll and some win e on a white tablecloth. We sat in silence for minutes on end, and every now and again a man (women weren`t allowed to speak, they must be silent and cover their heads) would stand up and read a passage from Scripture, or announce a hymn (to be sung a capella) or pray. After about half an hour of this, we had communion: after a long prayer, the bread roll was passed around, and everyone took a miniscule piece of it to eat. I could see that more than half the roll would be left at this rate, and so when it came to my turn I tore off a big chunk[1], and slowly chewed and swallowed it while we sat in silence. The silence continued for so long that I began to wonder whether I couldn`t have torn off an even bigger chunk than I did, before another long prayer preceded the wine. Again, people were taking the most miniscule of sips, so I took a big gulp.

Although I found them fairly narrow theologically - and did not like the "Women keep silent in church bit" (though they would let women sing and even sung hymns written by women - which struck me as hypocrital) - I quite enjoyed the periods of silence.

Further to Wood's comments about Baptist ministers, one of the corollaries of the individual church actually being able to vote in the church meeting to do whatever it likes, a church can in fact appoint anybody it so chooses to be its minister - whether or not either theologically trained or 'ordained'. Meanwhile the BU has a reputation for being reluctant to ordain new young ministers because there are already too many old ones out there without churches to look after!

Smacks of interfere-ism!

With regard to Communion, I think it depends whether you're trying to replicate the specifics of what the Gospels tell (in which case the bread would be unleavened and the wine alcoholic) or the spirit (in which case a full meal might be best but a bite/sip of one's common food and drink will do, so wine is maybe not the most appropriate (water, anyone?); and is the reason why leavened bread is used in non-conformist churches).

I'm sure that the temperance movement is the reason non-conformist churches moved to non-alcoholic, and suspect that the individual cups despite the justification (we drink together to show that we are one body) were introduced for hygiene reasons.

I used to go to a Brethren church in my youth and heard of but never actually had to have a Letter of Commendation. We sat on all sides of the communion table, to emphasise our equality before God; and whoever felt like it (but had to be male) would 'consecrate' the bread and wine.

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As far as I know altar calls are quite common in the U.S. especially
among Methodists (as H.T. observed),

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Originally posted by nicolemrw:
prior to coming to ship-of-fools i'd never heard of an alter call.

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I love that spelling mistake! An altar call makes you alter your life.

I think services at Methodist churches in NYC would tend to be quite different from those you might encounter at a Methodist church in "the Bible belt" or in rural/small town areas, where worship would likely be more informal, rather "old-fshioned", and somewhat evangelistic.

This is the case in other denominations as well. The two major Baptist churches in NYC (Riverside Church and Judson Memorial} are a far cry from, say, Liberty Baptist of Lynchburg, VA, or First Baptist of Peoria, IL.

The Crystal Cathedral, (of television fame) is in the same denomination as First Reformed of Holland, Michigan, but they are as similar to each other as Disneyland is to Geneva.

I think that (with some exceptions) the larger the city where the Methodist church is located, the less likely it is to have an altar call. Then again, I'm not a Methodist (although some of my best friends are), and I may be totally off base.

Why are my Protestant friends so reticent?

Perhaps they want to eavesdrop on an Anglican-to Anglican explanation, so here goes. The short answer is that it depends. The classic altar call is for one to come foreward in order to become a Christian, to go to the front to be led by the pastor or counsellors in the "sinners prayer", and thus to become a Christian {saved/born again).

It may also be a public confession of one's conversin experience that may have occurred during the service.

In some churches the altar call may also be an opportunity for one to come forward to express his or her desire to become a member of the church, to be baptised, to be healed from disease, to commit one's self to the Christian life, to re-commit oneself to such a path, to renounce some major sinful conduct (aka 'backsliding'), or to recieve prayer to overcome such conduct. Some of these aspects of the altar call would cover the same ground as auricular confession, but the setting is of course very different.

there is a large Methodist church in my neighbourhood in which, I am informed, one may see a processional cross and lights carried in at the beginning, and BCP-style communion.

The "altar call" at the church I mentioned earlier was, I am informed, generally designed so that people may "dedicate" their lives or problems or concerns to God. I get the impression that it serves the same purpose as the "healing ministry" now undertaken in so many Episcopal churches.

She says they go to the altar rail, have wine in a goblet which is for intinction only, and have tiny glasses with grape juice for those who don't want to receive by intinction.

She says she didn't know the parts of the mass until now, and, of course, I had to tease her about going to mass on Sunday now.

The Methodist Hymnal has, in the front pages, a communion service which is identical to the USA 1928 BCP rite. (her church uses a different rite, I haven't seen it, which is printed in their service leaflet, which has about 6 pages)

Your post reminded me of a Methodist church I visited once where the altar call was of the non-evangelistic variety. Nearly all the congregation came foreward and knelt at the rail. The pastor went from person to person and placed his hands on their heads and whispered a blessing (I think). This was not necessarily for those in need of physical or spiritual healing, but seemed to be almost sacramental - an action that imparted God's comfort and grace for whatever the person's needs might be.