Source: (consider it)
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Thread: SF - Is the church beyond saving?
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Old Fashioned Crab
Shipmate
# 1204
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Posted
quote: there's a lot more to being church than fitting in with the power structure of your chosen denomination
Can someone please tell me what this habit of leaving out "the" from before the word "Church" is all about. I put this one in the really annoying Christian words thread. So please explain.
-------------------- O dear white children casual as birds, Playing among the ruined languages, So small beside their large confusing words, So gay against the greater silences Of dreadful things you did
Posts: 397 | From: Croydon UK | Registered: Aug 2001
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Old Fashioned Crab
Shipmate
# 1204
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Posted
It seemed to start at one specific moment, the use of this phraseology. Does it stem from some book?
-------------------- O dear white children casual as birds, Playing among the ruined languages, So small beside their large confusing words, So gay against the greater silences Of dreadful things you did
Posts: 397 | From: Croydon UK | Registered: Aug 2001
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Adrian
Electric angel
# 298
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sacredthree: It is still Baptising, Burying, Celebrating the Eucharist, praying for the Sick and Dead, feeding people's spirituality, etc.
is it? maybe a point in that people still like funerals, but none of my friends kids are baptised, nor do i know anyone who takes the eucharist apart from my church friends. and feeding peoples' spirituality? give me break. people are looking everywhere *but* the church for spirituality. i constantly see little shrines of flowers at the side of the street where people have died in accidents, i see people getting mystical about george and john, i see the impromtue shrines commemorating sept 11th - this seems to be the real expression of people's spirituality. this kind of public mourning didn't happen (at least not without the official church ritual) 50 years ago. i think the church is gonna have to wake up to the fact that people now consider spirituality their own province, to adapt, nurture and believe in as they see fit. but will it? nah. it still thinks it has the one and only 100% original version of spirituality and woe betide the person who wants to explore that without being dictated to.
-------------------- www.emergingchurch.info www.the-scriptorium.org
Posts: 992 | From: sunny scarborough, uk | Registered: May 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by sacredthree: It is still Baptising, Burying, Celebrating the Eucharist, praying for the Sick and Dead, feeding people's spirituality, etc.
And yet it's still leaking members like there's no tomorrow.
Monica Furlong makes a very interesting point in her book "C of E" - the Church made a special regulation to stop the threatened exodus of a tiny minority who disagreed with a particular theological point, yet does bugger all (not her words, natch) to stop the massive seepage for all the other reasons. I don't like much church-packing either - but the question has to be asked, what's the point of hatching, matching and dispatching people if it has no effect whatsoever either on them, the community or the state we live in?
-------------------- "He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Old Fashioned Crab
Shipmate
# 1204
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Posted
quote: different models for doing church
What an ugly phrase. Sounds like a bodily function.
-------------------- O dear white children casual as birds, Playing among the ruined languages, So small beside their large confusing words, So gay against the greater silences Of dreadful things you did
Posts: 397 | From: Croydon UK | Registered: Aug 2001
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Old Fashioned Crab
Shipmate
# 1204
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Posted
Sorry that was just a knee jerk. Someone explained 'being Church to me' on another thread recently. I like the idea behind it. I'm all for unstructured Church-like activity. Subversive stuff. I'd like to see such a website too.
-------------------- O dear white children casual as birds, Playing among the ruined languages, So small beside their large confusing words, So gay against the greater silences Of dreadful things you did
Posts: 397 | From: Croydon UK | Registered: Aug 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think if you do a course in church history, Magnificat, you would be surprised at how unlike your ideal the early church actually was. I gather next year that a course in church history will be available on line from exeter uni, there may be others also.
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
Maybe it's because you only hear about the raving heretics, but it's always seemed to me that there were a lot of very weird people in the early church... just like now really!
-------------------- This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Magnificat - you're a pea-brained idealist. Just so you're happy! Seriously, I have sympathy with your points, to an extent. But I also agree that your view of the early church is as much coloured by 21st Century perspectives as anything. The early church was not ( necessarily ) poor, but they did excercise come degree of community living. The church today can be a social club for the middle classes, but it doesn't have to be. Clergy are often poor, although ( quite rightly ) not at poverty levels. But their expenses can be high. I think you are an idealist, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. It means that achieving your ideals is probably impossible, because such a state never existed. But keep your ideals, in principle, and help to change the state of the church into a better one, one more in keeping with Christian principles. Idealists are both a pain in the side of the church, and a necessary counter to the conservative elements.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Old Fashioned Crab
Shipmate
# 1204
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Posted
quote: Clergy are often poor, although ( quite rightly ) not at poverty levels. But their expenses can be high.
Rubbish. I've never seen a truly poor C of E clergy person yet. RC clergy get half the stipend and they seem to manage. OK they aren't likely to have children (!) but they don't have the possibility of a second salary either. My vicar lives in a nine bedroom house alone!
-------------------- O dear white children casual as birds, Playing among the ruined languages, So small beside their large confusing words, So gay against the greater silences Of dreadful things you did
Posts: 397 | From: Croydon UK | Registered: Aug 2001
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rosemary
Shipmate
# 100
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Wood: Of course, it would be silly to claim that this was anything but a minor reason for people leaving the church in general - after all, far more people are leaving the church than are going to other denominations.
Of course it would, Wood (!), but much of the growth alleged by housechurch leaders was actually a shifting round from other denominations. If someone was not a Christian ( in their view) until they demonstrated either an emotional religious experience or speaking in tongues, then they could claim people were converted. However, what I find more disturbing was the influence the housechurch had on the charismatic movement within the Anglican church. My perception of renewal in the 70's was of a gentle movement within the Church, which took account of both suffering and joys in the life. This was hijacked by a far more aggressive and triumphalist approach which seemed to major on joy and downplay the role suffering/coping with everyday life figures in spirituality. Therefore when people came across difficulties, they could not admit to them, and dropped out of church. Not the only reason for the decline of the church, but an important one nevertheless. One of the big plusses of alt worship IMO is that both suffering and joy can be incorporated, because it is very much about where you are with God, and leaves a lot more room for individual response to God because the framework is much looser. Similarly, there are more linkages with spirituality and life outside church issues e.g. Urban Mass, and Adrian's stuff on the Holy City. But if people are too browned off with church, it can be a big step back even into alt worship, which again, means numbers can be low, especially if the existing group is small and taken up with planning worship, and therefore may have little time to nurture and fan the flames of hope alive in those who are burned out on church. Gosh that is an amazingly long post for me....
-------------------- "It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness." Confucius
Posts: 743 | From: cardiff | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by rosemary: Of course it would, Wood (!), but much of the growth alleged by housechurch leaders was actually a shifting round from other denominations. If someone was not a Christian ( in their view) until they demonstrated either an emotional religious experience or speaking in tongues, then they could claim people were converted.However, what I find more disturbing was the influence the housechurch had on the charismatic movement within the Anglican church. My perception of renewal in the 70's was of a gentle movement within the Church, which took account of both suffering and joys in the life. This was hijacked by a far more aggressive and triumphalist approach which seemed to major on joy and downplay the role suffering/coping with everyday life figures in spirituality. Therefore when people came across difficulties, they could not admit to them, and dropped out of church. Not the only reason for the decline of the church, but an important one nevertheless.
Well done, Rosemary, this was pretty much what I was trying to say, only you said it so much better. What is interesting is the different conclusion you have come to: you use this as a basis for putting forward alt.worship as the next step; I on the other hand decided to reject the message that the Cof E was rotten and beyond redemption (which I happen to think was a very warped view borne out of bitterness of the housechurch leaders at that time) and consequently made an effort to stay within the established church. Probably was much easier to do this than for people who have gone right away to then come back - a huge step for some.
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I bet we are all tired of this discussion. So I'll keep writing.This whole debate reminds me of that between Dr Lloyd-Jones and Stott 40 odd years ago, where the Evangelicals couldn't decide (or fell out about at least) to stay in or out of the traditional denominations. I think Alt.Worship having the same argument is a bit sad and suggests the church hasn't really grown up that much. My vision for church is compatable with the established church. It might work outside of it as well. I want church to be in the community, rather than just a community or instead of the community. I want worship to be multisensual and interactive, open and explorative in its various forms. I want tradition to be the wider story that we are part of, that what we do is part of a larger whole. I want ministers who are guides and representatives not leaders and managers.] I want all that with fries and coke in about 3 minutes please.
-------------------- blog//twitter// linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
And I found out on SOF no less that She is in fact a Nominalist...... Ah, the famed William of Ockham.....
-------------------- Best Wishes Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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steve collins
Shipmate
# 224
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Posted
chorister and rosemary: thanks for a couple of brilliant posts.it's funny the way we discuss being in/outside the Church. to me it's important to keep in mind the distinction between the Church as the Body of Christ and the Church as the sum total of denominations and organisations. right now the two are nowhere near the same thing. we are the Church, in one sense, in so far as we are believers at all, so we don't 'leave' it by moving outside the usual structures. i'm not one of those who sees the structures we've inherited as being ordained by God to be the only correct containers for believers - i think they're more fallible and contingent than that, and can therefore be challenged or stepped outside if necessary. but i mean this in a different way to how the house churches, or other seceding groups in history, saw it. they stepped outside the existing structures and then damned the people still in them as 'not real christians'. and in doing so, [among other faults] they perpetuated the identification of the Body of true believers with such-and-such an organisation - except it was their organisation now that embodied true belief not someone elses. but for alt worshippers any separation from the usual structures is a practical move to gain space to do something that seems necessary, not a claim to be the new true Church of Christ. OK we may rubbish the structures, but we're not thereby rubbishing people's faith - just suggesting that that faith could be better expressed through different [maybe not totally different] structures. speaking for grace, we just do what we do and don't worry about our position wrt the denomination except on those occasions when there's a direct conflict. and when that happens we're more inclined to kick the powers-that-be to change their ways than secede from them. i suspect this might be an anglican position, because it assumes that 1. you can belong to the denomination from a wide range of theological positions and practices and 2. that the denomination ought to make space for you to be different or move about. some other denominations take a more restrictive view, and those who won't fit in have to leave. i don't think it's any accident that the majority of worship experiments are in the c of e. which i think indicates something to its credit, that it at least tries to model the Body of Christ as an inclusive community of all kinds of believers. in that sense it is truly catholic!
Posts: 287 | From: london | Registered: May 2001
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MacIain
Apprentice
# 1674
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Posted
Frankly, my dears, I don't givva damn.Whatever "the Church" may be as it expresses itself today seems so far removed from whatever we can glean from Jesus' life and teaching via the gospels that it doesn't seem worth saving. Question I often ask myself is: WHAT exactly are people trying to "save"? My (admittedly cynical) suspicion is that people want to save power structures, hierarchical systems, comfortable traditons. In other words, most - possibly all - of the things that Jesus seems to have found objectionable, and which conspired to kill him in the first place. And yet, there is also much that is worthy ... However, since today I still believe in resurrection, I have no fear whatever for the safety of the Church. My greater suspcion is that what passes for Church today actually needs to cark it, so that something decent and worthy can be raised in its place. MacIain quote:
"Sicut Patribus sit Deus nobis." "Yes, but they didn't have electricity - or computers." "Good point, dude."
-------------------- "Religion is hell, boys. Get used to it, or get a life." The Rev Dr William Tecumseh Phereme, Founder and Perpetual Life President of the William Tecumseh Phereme University and Bible College, Inc.
Posts: 15 | From: Findochty | Registered: Nov 2001
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Umbrella
Shipmate
# 232
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Posted
I am really not quite sure where this will fit (if it soes) into the overall pattern of this debate but here goes anyway ............When I was stationed here in my first post as a minister one of the 'attributes' that the church were looking for in their minister was some who was community minded. Now on one level that makes perfect sense I am in a rural setting and we all live almost in each other pockets (with fields between). But ... as time has progressed I have come to realise more and more that I am not seen as Caistor Methodist's Minister but as Caistor's Methodist Minister. I know to many that is a subtlety in typo but in reality it offers me access and in roads into the lives of all of the folk in this area and not just the church goers or the schools. I am welcomed into the homes and lives of people from all walks of life - believers and not, seekers and contented landers, all denominations or non ............ I feel really priveledged to be in that position because I can be me with God and the community I am here to serve and not just for the sacramental or liturgical bits of my work!
-------------------- 'It is sad that most ministers have more hours training in how to talk & be with people than how to talk & be with God.' H.J.M.Nouwen.
Posts: 204 | From: Wales | Registered: May 2001
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Da WonderSheep
Apprentice
# 2217
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Posted
Hello Honorable Friends!I notice I am coming to this thread late, and the rest of y'all are argued out, but the question is practically calling to myself to respond, and at legnth. I humbly ask your forgiveness, first of all, because I come from a California United Methodist background, and I have little idea what the situation is in Anglican circles. I am also rather conservative in style for someone in their 20s (not conservative in politics however, just ask my girlfriend). When I attended university four years ago, I immediatley joined the local church and choir. I was the youngest in the choir by about 20 years. Being in a uni town, and seeing a college-age woman, in a town notorious for partying and worldliness, actually coming looking for spirituality, my pastor tried several times in my tenure there to start a college-aged group. Usually it was myself and her, sitting in her office, wondering where those who promised they'd be there were at. Because of my personal spiritual journey, I felt corporate worship, in a building with liturgy and an organ and all that were what I needed to aid in my growth. But I was always on the lookout for more. One of my specialties at Uni became Comparative Religions. Something I discovered in all my studies was that when another religious tradition had an aspect that appealed to myself (Buddhisim and meditation, Wicca and respect for nature, etc.), I could find a correlation in my own tradition (Centering prayer, St. Francis' writings, etc.). I believe that the key to 'saving' the church (bringing people together to grow spiritually together) is fourfold: 1) Educational opportunities: Discover the history and richness of tradition. 2) Accessibility: Allow people to meet on neutral ground, off of church property, to learn, then invite them to other events, such as Sunday Morning/Afternoon/Evening. 3) Attention to population: Is the church surrounded by pubs? Have a late Saturday service. Is it surrounded by suburb where everyone commutes to the city? Don't plan events during business hours. 4) Advertisement: Spend a little cash on flyers, let the people know what you are doing, when you are doing it, and who's invited. Do you know what trouble I am having to find a church in my new area that will impose ashes for Ash Wednesday? Okay, my Honorable Friends, I have posited a plan of action to bring together community. I await and welcome comments and tearing it to shreds.
-------------------- ------- Spiffy Da WonderSheep, a name that will forever live in insanity...
Posts: 19 | From: California, United States of America | Registered: Jan 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by rosemary: My feeling is that if the vicar was more of an enabler who taught people how to feed/learn/develop their spiritual lives themselves, rather than being a teacher/leader, this might be one factor which reduces the flow out of the church.
But what if it's human nature to need teachers and leaders? What if it's part of the nature of corporate worship, of being the body of Christ, to have parts which help regulate other parts? What if the modern tendency toward total equality is at least somewhat misguided, and the Church is one of the few places left where we can find the hierarchy -- for spiritual as well as other purposes -- we genuinely need?
-------------------- My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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steve collins
Shipmate
# 224
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Posted
well spiffy, your four points seem entirely sensible to me. i wonder why churches don't do all those things?
Posts: 287 | From: london | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
don't worry, Chast - the Cof E has been busy selling off its huge vicarages for years now as they are so expensive to maintain - some are left but most have been replaced by modern smaller houses. Even many suffragan bishops only live in 4-bed modern houses, which is reasonable for a couple or small family (bishops are getting younger) and a separate study / meeting room. Okay, some diocesan bishops still have 'palaces' they are historical buildings often in the cathedral close. I wonder how many are used for other things, eg museum space, cathedral school offices, etc. I don't think all the rooms are just wasted pomp - has anyone been inside to check? The Bish of Exeter often throws open his garden to school groups and sunday school / youth groups for activity days - it is useful to have space for such things.
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
aren't most of our modern illnesses supposed to be because most of our houses are too warm?? Is there any connection between this and the fact that a lot of the clergy obits. in the Church Times are of people in their 90s? Perhaps cold, draughty vicarages are a good idea after all??
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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