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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Perception and Prejudice
babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34

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I should have also said that (in this instance) Erin doesn't just speak for some of the Americans on board. She is also speaking for me, a Scot living in Wales.

bb


Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
gandalf35
Shipmate
# 934

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I have a lot of reasons for disliking "American " politics my self I am a Lakota Sioux but my reasons are specific. I am also troubled by the fact that our current Pres. was not elected by popular vote. So I am hurt when I as an American get lumped into a catagory with others who do not share my concerns. If people cannot respect this then I say, ERIN! GO FOR THE THROAT!!

--------------------
Life is like a bowl of cherries... Mmmm cherries...

Posts: 185 | From: If hell exists, I live there. | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riley

BANNED
# 991

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:

If she's not taking it well, why is that? Could it possibly be that you're being insulting?

No, insulting is calling all American arrogant capitalist bastards (not something I agree with, just an example).

The vast majority of UK citizens (yes I know you're in Australia, Riley, but this, I feel, probably applies to you too) don't like Americans.

Last week I met a Canadian who's lived in the UK for several years. She told me that people are usually much nicer to her once they realise that she isn't from the US.



Funny that isn't it. I wonder if there's a reason the world feels this way.....

Hmm...I don't think this has made things any better but oh well.

It's hard trying to live in a stereotype, I have to live in several, and it's hard to make people see that not everyone is like that. Maybe rather than attacking others for their feelings, why not prove them wrong? I mean no disresepct, but in my limited experience my feelings have been confirmed, not altered. I'm quite open minded and my opinions can be changed, but there's nothing to make me change this one as yet.


Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Riley

BANNED
# 991

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:

What I want to know: [list]

  • Since when is it an unfairly-maligned group's responsibility to rid you of your prejudice?
  • Just to go right back, I'd argue that those people would be the best people to do so, since they are probably the only ones who understand exactly where they are coming from.

    BUt I'm sure my throat will be jumped down again for this as well.


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Beenster
    Shipmate
    # 242

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    I am really bad at putting into words strong emotion.

    So can I simply echo the points that babybear and Wood have made- thanks for working on dispelling the myth that Erin - and other Americans might be inclined to build up that all english are illogically anti-american. Yes some are. But not all.

    I think it would be a real tragedy that a US poster might ended up in that situation as a result of unprovoked generalisations. Understandable and - I agree with Wood that you would be justified in thinking such of all English - or feeling you had to establish where they are standing.

    Please don't go down that road. You would be doing yourself a worse dis-service - than any other person. If you hook onto one generalisation, than you easily slip into the next and the next and with a potential end result of lumping everyone in some rubbish context. How so not happy would anyone be like that?

    Don't let them get the better of you in such ways. I hope they are in the minority. I am sorry I haven't posted my support more on this post to the americans but, as I say, I am finding it hard to put into words what I want to say. The anti-american generalisations really suck and they hurt me as a brit to read (in the same way as I feel when I read about brit soccer thugs etc) so really can't begin to imagine how they hurt you.

    No I am not perfect.

    To those who think Erin should lighten up - why should she? This is an issue that is important to her so don't discredit it for her or any other american. I am sure you have issues you feel strongly about.

    really wish I could say what I wanted to say better. But hope that has clarified my position - as best I can. Apologies if not - please understand that sometimes I find it hard to put things into words and am simply not as eloquent as I would like to be. That does not negate the depth of feeling.


    Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Moo

    Ship's tough old bird
    # 107

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    Riley, there's a very important point you don't understand.

    If someone insults you and then is surprised you don't take it well, this says something about his attitude toward you.

    If someone says, "You're dirty!", you will (I assume) get angry. If he responds with surprise, "All I did was say you're dirty.", you will get much angrier. If he then asks you to prove you're not dirty, you'll explode.

    If someone feels insulted, a tone of "reasonableness" is pouring oil on the flames.

    Moo

    --------------------
    Kerygmania host
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    See you later, alligator.


    Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Erin
    Meaner than Godzilla
    # 2

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    Thanks to Wood (my hero!), Beenster, babybear, Moo and Elizabeth. And Beenster, the thing is, I learned a lesson at the back of my very demure, very Southern grandmother's very strong hand about 24 years ago that I've never forgotten. So no, I won't be automatically classifying every non-US contributor as illogically anti-American. I'll wait for them to out themselves. They always do.

    Riley, I'm not going to jump down your throat. You have proven yourself to be illogically anti-American, and on this subject you are on terminal ignore.

    --------------------
    Commandment number one: shut the hell up.


    Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Moo

    Ship's tough old bird
    # 107

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    Beenster

    Thanks very much for your support and your concern for the American shipmates.

    I thought you expressed yourself very well.

    Moo

    --------------------
    Kerygmania host
    ---------------------
    See you later, alligator.


    Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    Surely people would understand when they are being included in a statement?

    For example, if we say a sitcom is bad because it is American, that doens't mean we are referring to all Americans. If we complain about US political decisions, again, we are not complaining about all Americans, not even the ones who voted for Bush, etc, only about the people making the decisions.

    Or if people say American tourists are loud mouthed, rude and arrogant. This doesn't apply to all, in fact it only applies to the specific people that the person making the statement has met, which would most probably be very few people.

    I would hope that in other threads tounge-in-cheek remarks about a country could be made without people accusing you of insulting all they hold dear.


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Erin:
    You have proven yourself to be illogically anti-American.

    Ín reality I'm not anti-american, lots....some....a few great things come from America
    The great majority of Americans are fantastic people and constantly have to live proving that they are not like the stereotype. There are only a few people that I have met who are like that, very few. BUt that's the same with any culture - it's always only a few.
    I merely responded orginally to the threads I'd read, and when the responses came back I thought I'd see where I could take it. This is hell after all isn't it?

    I'm very sorry if I've offended Erin or any other yanks, it was not my intention :-)


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    In all honesty I can't even remember my original point - it seems to both ahve been lost and keep changing with each reply.
    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    RuthW

    liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
    # 13

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Riley:
    For example, if we say a sitcom is bad because it is American, that doens't mean we are referring to all Americans.

    <snip>

    Or if people say American tourists are loud mouthed, rude and arrogant. This doesn't apply to all, in fact it only applies to the specific people that the person making the statement has met, which would most probably be very few people.


    If you say a sitcom is bad because it's American, and that's the only evidence of its badness you give, you are displaying anti-American prejudice.

    If you say American tourists are loud, rude and arrogant, you are over-generalizing. If you mean only that some American tourists are loud, rude and arrogant, that that's what you should say in the first place.

    Riley, I was not engaging in personal attack when I said your posts make me anti-Riley instead of anti-Australian. I was saying two things, apparently too subtly for you: 1. I am able to see your comments as representing you and only you, not Australians in general; 2. based on what you've posted so far, I don't like you.


    Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    That's actually the point I was trying to make (but in reference to Erin). I was hoping that she'd prove me wrong, and has done so, although she hasn't replied to my email yet!!!!!In reply to Ruth's first statement, obviously I'm not expressing correctly what I want to say, but rather than continue this pointless argument I'm going to drop it.
    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Erin
    Meaner than Godzilla
    # 2

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    I've been going back and forth on you, Riley. I don't know if I like you or not. A few things you've said here lead me to an emphatic NO, but there are other things I've seen that show me you have promise.

    I did respond, the email was returned as undeliverable with an "access denied" message, which I have to say pissed me off. So I blasted you in response to your PM (click on the My profile link in the upper righthand corner to see it).

    Now, some background. I live in the American South, a region which has long since been synonymous with racism. And we have a horrible track record on that front. Lynchings were not unheard of 35 years ago. Thankfully we've made tremendous progress since then, but the knowledge of our past is something that all Southerners carry with them.

    It's still somewhat overt in some parts of the South. I remember repeating a racial slur to my grandmother when I was six. I don't remember the ensuing few minutes. She backhanded me so hard that I was literally stunned. And she told me that she's heard that all her life, and she'd be damned and go to hell before she saw yet another generation grow up with that sort of mindset. It is a lesson I will never forget, and probably the single most important thing she ever taught me.

    Because of this, I am very sensitive to prejudice and stereotyping and labels. In fact, they send me into a blind fury, which is why Simon is moderating this thread. I tire of it quickly. I don't necessarily blame people for thinking what they think, but it pisses me the hell off when they continue to justify thinking it. There's no justification for expecting me to have to prove my environmental awareness because the Bush Administration rejected Kyoto. That's what started this whole thread. Groucho said that because of the Kyoto rejection Americans would have to prove themselves as caring about environmental concerns. Whether you think Kyoto is a bad idea or the Greatest Thing in the Whole Wide World Ever is not the point. The point is that it wasn't my decision, and I should not have to prove anything because of it.

    Apologies to Moo for the lengthy post.

    --------------------
    Commandment number one: shut the hell up.


    Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    YOu should be abel to email me in the future, I think it's fixed.

    You make a good point and I agree (I do, really ). You'll probably find that had Bush agreed to Kyoto then the US would have been branded greenies or something similar.

    I thought of an interesting point. If one makes comments about an aboriginal or ethnic or asian here, they are branded a racist. But if it's about a yank, brit or kiwi or the like, then it's not. Is that the same everywhere else?


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    marmot

    Mountain mammal
    # 479

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    Nah, it's only really prejudice if it happens to someone with brown skin. Must be a great place to live, eh, Riley, where you can insult anybody who isn't like you and then tell 'em to get over it or risk further assault. We have people like that here, too. They have little pointy heads and frequent the white sales at the department store.

    What I can't figure out is why you're still posting on these boards.

    R.

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    Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"


    Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    I think you missed the point of what I was saying Renee.
    I was saying that if you say things about blacks or asians or ethnics, etc, then you are called a racist. And rightly so. Yet people here will make jokes, etc about americans or irishmen or new zealanders that are considered funny. They may be the same things said about the other people, but are not deemed to be racist.

    I was aasking if that was the same in say the US - jokes about black people are racist, but jokes about, say, australians are funny?

    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Renee:
    Must be a great place to live, eh, Riley, where you can insult anybody who isn't like you and then tell 'em to get over it or risk further assault.

    You completely missed what I was saying. I was saying if you talk about someone who isn't like you, then that is bad. I would assume most Australians consider americans and brits to be the same as us - I know I do. The only real difference is we live in different places.

    Obviously I shall need to spell things out to you in the future Renee


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Moo

    Ship's tough old bird
    # 107

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    While reading the "Anti-English prejudice" thread, I had a thought about why Americans react personally to statements about America.

    On that thread people said things like, "My father is Welsh and my mother is Irish, but I've lived in England all my life." This person obviously does not see himself as simply English.

    I compare this with the attitude of my son-in-law, whose father immigrated from Canada and whose mother immigrated from Sweden. He is aware of his heritage, but he considers himself American pure and simple. He would be startled if anyone suggested otherwise.

    In the same way, if someone immigrated to America as an adult, and twenty years later said that he considered himself American, people would not argue with him. I have the impression that if someone immigrated to England and later said he considered himself English, he would get an argument. Brits, please tell me if I'm right about this.

    Moo

    --------------------
    Kerygmania host
    ---------------------
    See you later, alligator.


    Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    Not being British I can't answer your question specifically Moo, but I would say that your country and nationality is where you pledge your loyalty. It doesn't matter where you are born, only where you now live.
    I know that anyone who moves to Australia and then calls themself Australian will get no argument on that, regardless of where they came from. Well, no argument form me anyway...

    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Alan Cresswell

    Mad Scientist 先生
    # 31

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    Moo, you're probably right. I was born in England and only moved to Scotland a bit over 5 years ago. I think of myself primarily as British, and then English but never as Scottish - it would seem somehow wrong for me to claim Scottish heritage. I don't know whether others who have moved between different parts of the UK feel the same, but I suspect many do.

    Alan

    --------------------
    Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.


    Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    RuthW

    liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
    # 13

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    Moo, I think you're right. Although I wouldn't put the time at twenty years.

    Where I live, we ask people how long they've lived in California, and if they say something like five years, we say, "Oh, well, then you're practically a native."

    Ten percent of the people living in the US right now were born outside the country. In California, that figure is 25%. As soon as these people take the oath and are naturalized, they're Americans.


    Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
    babybear
    Bear faced and cheeky with it
    # 34

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    You are right. The prevailing attitude is "Once an American, always an American."

    My husband has lived in Wales for all of his adult life, but would hesitate to say that he was Welsh. The Gremlin has lived in Wales since 1988, and has learnt Welsh, and has two bi-lingual daughters. If people ask him *what* he is he often replies "English by birth, Welsh by habitation, and Scottish by marriage."

    I have just asked Hannah (7)
    bb: Are you Socttish, English or Welsh?
    H: Welsh.
    bb: What am I?
    H: Scottish.
    bb: What is Dadi?
    H: English
    bb: Doesn't that make you half Scottish and half English?
    H: [nods head]
    bb: So what are you, are you half Scottish and half English or are you Welsh?
    H: Welsh.

    bb


    Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    Actually, thinking about it a bit more I would now be inclined to agree with you. I hope to retire to Scotland (my family's original heritage), hopefully young lol, and although I'd claim Scottish/British citizenship eventually, I guess I'd still go for Australia in the sport. So I think you may be right, or that it works both ways :-)
    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    Sorry to make two posts in a row, but I have a question for baby bear.

    When people ask your nationality do you say Scottish or British, and why? IS there a time you'd say the other one?


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    babybear
    Bear faced and cheeky with it
    # 34

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    I am a Scot, living in Wales. I speak Scots, English and Welsh (I also have a little French and a little German).

    I have called myself British on these boards a couple of times, but shuddered each time I did so. I should stop the shuddering, and just accept that it is a label that some people use for me.

    I think that being Scottish gives me a different outlook that people who are British. But as I have lived in Wales for 10 years now my knowledge of Scotland is historic. So that is why I am "a Scot, living in Wales."

    bb


    Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    Cool.

    I want to go to Scotland so badly, I can't see it happening in the near future though. My family is originally from there, plus I need to pick up more of my family's tartan - I want a kilt lol


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Astro
    Shipmate
    # 84

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    quote:
    I have called myself British on these boards a couple of times, but shuddered each time I did so.

    Why did you shudder?

    --------------------
    if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)


    Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    babybear
    Bear faced and cheeky with it
    # 34

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    Because to me, being "British" conjours up images of empirialism and conquest, about superiority and treating other cultures as if they were less than unimportant.

    This is something that I am slowly coming to terms with, and trying to revise my current impressions. I suppose that I am guilty of being anti-British. I don't think that I would ever want to describe myself as being British, but I hope that I can learn to accept being called British without the shudders, and without the negative images that appear in my mind.

    bb


    Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    mousethief

    Ship's Thieving Rodent
    # 953

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    Mostly what Americans want (if my sampling is representative) is to be treated as individuals and not as a member of a conglomerate group represented by (a) hollywood; (b) american television; and (c) the shrub.

    I'm not represented by any of these. If someone speaks/writes in such a way as to show they think I am, they are both racist and stupid (or is that redundant?).

    Like Erin, I have grown up against all sorts of prejudice.

    And for Riley: prejudice based on one's own experience is still prejudice.

    Alex

    --------------------
    This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...


    Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    marmot

    Mountain mammal
    # 479

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    "Yet people here will make jokes, etc about americans or irishmen or new zealanders that are considered funny."
    quote:

    My point, Riley, is that those jokes here are considered offensive. As in not funny.

    I'm not sure what to think of your "brit, oz, yank, all alike" concept, since you were so adamant a few posts ago on the subject of "the rest of the world hates you, so accept the truth and get over it." It might be a good idea to take your own advice on the subject.

    As for spelling things out, well, don't strain yourself ma petite. We know who you are.

    R.

    --------------------
    Join me in "The Legion of Bad Monkeys"


    Posts: 2754 | From: The land of Saint Damien | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Siegfried
    Ship's ferret
    # 29

     - Posted      Profile for Siegfried   Author's homepage   Email Siegfried   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
    Renee, I have to agree with Riley on this one. You're missing his point.
    Making a joke about asians, or latinos, or blacks is pretty much taboo--when someone does tell one, they lower their voice, look around furtively, etc. But the same stigma doesn't apply when making a joke about, say, a Canadian. Or the French. Jokes based on national origin generally are not viewed as harshly as jokes based on race. And I think that's the point Riley was making.
    However... that point strikes me as off-topic, although fascinating in its own right.

    And, btw.. Erin speaks for me on this thread as well.

    --------------------
    Siegfried
    Life is just a bowl of cherries!


    Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    dyfrig
    Blue Scarfed Menace
    # 15

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    I've noticed there's been an element on this thread of suggesting that the best way of dealing with prejudice is to laugh it off, because to respond to it only makes it worse.

    I shall make no personal comment on such an arrogant, ignorant, fatuous, steaming pile of horeshit. Rather I'll refer such people to the words of Julian Wintle, an Englishman living in Wales:"By so airing our prejudices we reinforce them. Not only that, but by embedding them in laughter we make them acceptable. Comedy, far from defusing prejudice, reinforces it."

    --------------------
    "He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt


    Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
    mousethief

    Ship's Thieving Rodent
    # 953

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    Perhaps we should have told the blacks in Selma, Alabama to laugh and ride the bus anyway? Then where would we be today?

    Perhaps the way to have dealth with Apartheid in South Africa was laughter? Where would they be today?

    And what about those Jews killed in WW2? Should they have just laughed? Should the allies have just laughed rather than racing to free them?

    We might as well laugh about the present-day enslavement of Christians and animists in Sudan, since we're not doing a hell of a lot about it. As a Christian, though, I find myself crying, not laughing.

    Alex

    --------------------
    This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...


    Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    I think some people are over reacting. Comments about Americans (most of which I didn't even make) are in no way in the same category as JEwish persecution or apartheid.

    I've already apologised about comments which were taken badly, and I reiterate that. However, it seems that some of the Christians here won't forgive you so easily - you need to suffer a bit first.


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

     - Posted      Profile for Riley         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
    Incidnetally, my comments started because I had an issue with something Erin said and that colored my responses to the thread. Things have now been sorted out, and evrythi'ng's fine. My real opinion is far from what I've expressed, I just got fired up and kept attacking rather than discussing.
    So once again, I apologise.

    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Gill
    Shipmate
    # 102

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    Any other Europeans in here?

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    Still hanging in there...

    Posts: 1828 | From: not drowning but waving... | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Erin
    Meaner than Godzilla
    # 2

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    It's true, Riley and I have sorted out the initial misunderstanding. And I appreciate the apologies.

    I do have a point to make, though. While the end result is fairly disparate, I would not necessarily agree that anti-American (or English, or Welsh, or any other nationality) comments are harmless in comparison to anti-Jewish sentiment, or apartheid. True, it is unlikely that six million Americans are going to be led to gas chambers in London or Sydney. But it is indicative of an "us vs them" attitude that we really should be in the business of eradicating.

    If you can draw that distinction between "us" and "them", it's not such a broad leap to dehumanize "them". And if you have dehumanized "them", you can do and say anything.

    --------------------
    Commandment number one: shut the hell up.


    Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Gill
    Shipmate
    # 102

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    Agreed.

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    Still hanging in there...

    Posts: 1828 | From: not drowning but waving... | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    I agree with you Erin, I think I just need to distinguish more clearly what is friendly international rivalry and what is intended to be offensive. Remember, I love all you yanks!!!
    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    dyfrig
    Blue Scarfed Menace
    # 15

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    My comment wasn't aimed at you specifically Riley - I know you, Erin and Ruth have had a long conversation on this issue. Others have tried it (both here and over the many, many arguments this has generated before).

    What is this concept of "friendly rivalry"? Sounds like another attempt to justify antagonism. Happens everywhere - lived in a village where people used to complain about people moving into the area from 7 miles away!

    No male no female, no slave no free, no Jew no Greek no Aussie no American no Brit no nothing, as Paul would say.

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    "He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt


    Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Ingeborg S. Nordén
    Shipmate
    # 894

     - Posted      Profile for Ingeborg S. Nordén   Email Ingeborg S. Nordén   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
    I too believe that prejudice against "outside" groups--national, racial, or otherwise--is no laughing matter. Yet I also believe that a person can love his own group as a distinct one, without hating or demeaning all others.

    In spite of what Paul may have said about unity-in-Christ, I am not a generic soul-in-need-of-saving, not a generic member-of-the-human-race. I am indeed female; I am indeed of Nordic descent. And I remain both of those things, without hating those who are neither. I remain both of those things, without losing what I have in common with the rest of the world. In spite of sin and salvation, deities and demons, angels and afterlives...I am still what I am.


    Posts: 188 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

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    Umm.....you don't understand friendly rivalry? Umm...can someone else explain it? I can't find the words to use.

    I would use examples of what you say about the other team during a sports match, it's not necessarily true, but it's not intended to bring harm.

    Or calling a Brit a pommy or an American a yank. It's not intended to be offensive, it's intended to be something else - the word has slipped my mind. Can someone who understands me help me out? lol


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    ptarmigan
    Shipmate
    # 138

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    Wonderful to see signs of peace breaking out, even in Hell.

    Over the last couple of days as a result of reading this thread I've started reflecting on whether I harbour and / or promulgate negative prejudices against US people. (We liberals are always open to challenge and change ) If I have come across that way I apologise.

    One of the best ways of challenging stereotypes is to meet and learn about people who we might think we can pigeonhole, and find out they might e different. I guess the Ship is one way of doing this.

    As I have said before I have US friends and others I have met who do not fit the stereotypes, but I guess that doesn't mean I have no stereotypes.

    Two questions to broaden the conversation slightly:

    - is it okay to hold and express preferences or distastes for cultural entities (e.g. businesses, cuisines, political ideologies) which are associated with a particular country?

    - Are we moving into the area of Political Correctness? (I ask that as one who tries to be PC though I dislike the negative way the term is iused; I prefer the word "courteous").

    Pt

    (English, British, European, male, white, christian, maried to a wonderful woman, New Labour, Anglican ... proud of some aspects of my heritage, ashamed of others, but glad to be me!)

    --------------------
    All shall be well. And all shall be well. And all manner of things shall be well. (Julian of Norwich)


    Posts: 1080 | From: UK - Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Alaric the Goth
    Shipmate
    # 511

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    originally posted by Ptarmigan:
    quote:
    - is it okay to hold and express preferences or distastes for cultural entities (e.g. businesses, cuisines, political ideologies) which are associated with a particular country?

    Of course it is! Macdonalds is a business associated with the USA, and I think many on these boards would express distaste with their employment practices, and their obtaining beef from countries that are destroying natural habitats to create cattle ranches. (But tehre are lots of 'good' American companies)

    As for cuisines, I have little liking for Mexican food (in contrast to my wife). This doesn't mean I 'hate' Mexicans of course!

    Regarding political ideologies, I do not by any means 'hate' the continent of Europe. I would rather live in it than Africa, Asia or Australia, for example. But I do 'hate' the European Union (as it currnetly exists), and regret that the UK is a member. Enthusiasts 'for' the EU have had a lot of success in 'demonising' opponents of it as being 'anti-European'. That is NOT (generally) the case. THE EU IS NOT EQUAL TO 'EUROPE'. (Just as the Bush adminisstration is not equal to 'the Americans'.)

    I do not dislike the Russians, Swiss, Ukrainians, Norwegians or Bulgarians. They are all European, yet not members of the EU. I do not 'dislike' the countries that ARE members (I am very fond of Ireland, for example); what I dislike are the unaccountable, centralising, interfering, bureaucratic bodies like the European Commission and the European Central Bank.

    --------------------
    'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
    Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)


    Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
    dyfrig
    Blue Scarfed Menace
    # 15

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    Alex started a thread on Purgatory about "unintentional" sins, which I think is very pertinent to the whole question of when "rivalry" becomes something worse.

    In 1994 a young black man was killed. His name was Stephen Lawrence. The investigation into his murder, by white youths, was totally botched and a public enquiry was held into the way the police handled the case.

    Drawing on conclusions that Lord Scarman had come to in 1981 after race riots in London, the McPhierson Report - which you can find here, see especially para 6.6 onwards - made widespread the phrase "institutional racism". What both Scarman (no wilting PC liberal he) and McPhierson made clear was that this wasn't deliberate or malicious or even conscious, but rather the outworking of unchallenged, un-thought-through attitudes, the consequences of which are that people are treated badly. Stephen Lawrence's killers don't seem to have been caught not because there was any deliberate racism ("Oh, it's only a black guy, so let's not bother") but rther the underlying assumptions of that particular police force - the effect of which was that this crime wasn't as thoroughly investigated as others.

    You can see it happening in other cases - there's a black guy in London who has been stopped eight times by the police, although he has committed no crime. His name is John Sentamu and he's the Anglican Bishop of Stepney.

    It's this unconscious prejudice which I think is a good example of an "unintentional sin" - we may think we're not prejudiced, but the consequences of our actions show that we are. It also suggests a laziness on our part about considering whether we might have prejudices that need challenging. It's what the rites of the Western churches call sins of negligence - you don't even bother sthining about them, but the consequences are there to see.

    Riley - I get the concept of "friendly rivalry" - I just don't think it's a particularly healthy one. The shit that we've had to wade through on these boards in the last 3 years has gone way beyond any such concept anyway - it's been spiteful, ignorant and, at bottom, racist. Had some of the comments we've seen been made against any other specified group, then the prejudice would have been clear. But because the target has been the concept of "Americans" in some people's heads, it seems that that makes it all alright. Yeah, right.

    --------------------
    "He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt


    Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
    gandalf35
    Shipmate
    # 934

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    Since there was more than one now, wouldn't the Bushes be considered a hedgerow? (BBC America again)

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    Life is like a bowl of cherries... Mmmm cherries...

    Posts: 185 | From: If hell exists, I live there. | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Riley

    BANNED
    # 991

     - Posted      Profile for Riley         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
    I'm not disagreeing with you, but friendly rivalry would not be racist, spiteful etc, or else it would not be friendly.

    Do any Americans get upset when they are called yanks? That's what I mean.

    Incidentally, if you do I apologise, I don't mean it in a bad way lol

    A black man getting pulled over by the police because he's black is obvious rascism and is terrible. But freindly rivalry would be on the basis of a country, regardless of whether you are black, white, yellow, green, whatever, and regardless of your background.

    Look at Australia for example. We have such a diverse culture, yet everyone here is Australian. Hmm...I think I'm going off on a tangent...


    Posts: 151 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    John Donne

    Renaissance Man
    # 220

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    A bit of a tangent:
    I read the posts about jokes regarding non-white people being unacceptable and those re: white USers, UKers, other Europeans and Aussies etc being ok.

    Actually I don't think I'm alone, but I think jokes about any ethnic group that ride on a stereotype of stupidity are offensive. I hate to listen to Irish jokes, and I usually interrupt the teller with: 'Ah yer. I don't like ethnic jokes'.

    Irish jokes share a common theme, where the humour turns on an assumption of stupidity or backwardness of the Irish people. Where a nation has been oppressed in its recent history, jokes that rely on a negative stereotype of a nation are insensitive and offensive.

    I read one of the captions in the Orangemen caption competition which went something along the lines of: 'Nothing we can ever write will make this scene funny'.


    Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Alaric the Goth
    Shipmate
    # 511

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    I disagree. I am of Scottish ancestry and live now in Yorkshire, and I love both parts of the world, yet I still like jokes about Scotsmen/Yorkshiremen being mean with money.

    I like Ireland a lot, and have some Irish ancestry, but I like, and will continue to like, good 'Irish' jokes. In Eire itself, they tell jokes about the people of County Kerry.

    The Jews have a long and rich tradition of humour that is very often directed at the quirks of their own culture. Do they get offended when non-Jews laugh, or make jokes in similar vein? Of course not, provided there isn't any 'nastiness' involved. Palestinians or neo-Nazis making 'nasty' jokes about them would of course be way out of bounds. But I'm sure that they can cope with a typical Brit or American, for example, joining in, in the spirit of their own humour.

    --------------------
    'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
    Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)


    Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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