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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pagan beliefs (was Set up)
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
Phew! What a fascinating thread. My head is spinning a bit as I have learnt a whole load of stuff I didn't know before.
Just a couple of quick question (and sorry if they have been asked/answered already. I have only skim read the thread just now and will read it in more detail later) but
A) If I have understood correctly, most Pagans are ex-Christians or people who were brought up in strongly Christian homes. I'm not knocking that. However, I am curious as to why this would be so. I realise that this thread is not about peoples personal lives/experiences and I respect that. Some general trends regarding the sociology of this would be interesting though if people don't object to the question.
B) I am still not 100% certain of the difference between Paganism and Wiccan. I hope I am not being thick but further details on this point would also be nice.
Great thread. Will read it again when my I feel able to take more in.
Ben26
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ben26:
A) If I have understood correctly, most Pagans are ex-Christians or people who were brought up in strongly Christian homes. I'm not knocking that. However, I am curious as to why this would be so. I realise that this thread is not about peoples personal lives/experiences and I respect that. Some general trends regarding the sociology of this would be interesting though if people don't object to the question.
Well, the ex-Christian part is only true to the extent that the Western societies in which Neo-Paganism has arisen have been predominantly Christian. It's not like this movement is a concerted mass exodus from Christianity: it's a haphazard, small exodus from mainstream society. I have a couple Neo-Pagan friends who are from Jewish families and many Neo-Pagans are from families that had no particular religion at all.
quote:
B) I am still not 100% certain of the difference between Paganism and Wiccan. I hope I am not being thick but further details on this point would also be nice.
It's not that complicated, but it does needed to be stated. Wicca is a sub-set of Neo-Paganism. It's probably the largest subset of Neo-Paganism at this time. Generally, Wicca is derived from the Tradition created by Gerald Gardner in the late 1940's, but there have been other nearly independent strains of Wicca which have been created through hearsay or outright theft. Nearly all Wiccan's call themselves Witches and would accept Neo-Pagan as a more generic term for their religion along with other Traditions. Some Non-Wiccan Neo-Pagans also call themselves Witches: I am one such. My Trad is an off-shoot of Victor Anderson's Feri Tradition which arose completely independently of Gardner though the two did correspond apparently at one point in the 60's.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
quote:
My personal experience in praying while regarding God as the Mother is that this face of God can be quite austere.
Oh, so you've met the Crone? Cool. I love Her too.
We must have very different ideas of what constitutes austere. Mine doesn't have strong sexual connotations.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
quote:
My personal experience in praying while regarding God as the Mother is that this face of God can be quite austere.
Oh, so you've met the Crone? Cool. I love Her too.
We must have very different ideas of what constitutes austere. Mine doesn't have strong sexual connotations.
Yours is much more the standard viewpoint of the Crone. That particular poem was meant to tweek the sandard Neo-Pagan streotype of what the Crone is like.
[ 12. July 2003, 23:11: Message edited by: Mertseger ]
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
Though you might feel safer with the priest's blessing (and I'm glad you had him do it), you can do similar, if less thorough, cleansing yourself on ocassion. Salt water works quite well in the absence of holy water, and virutally any incense will do. Just say a favorite prayer as you go through the rooms and while having the intention that the bad stuff will go and the good stuff will stay. A nice time to do so is while you're doing any mundane Spring cleaning.
You know, on NPR one morning this week, they were talking about all the office buildings in San Francisco that were standing empty after the dot-com bust, and what uses all that real estate is now being put to. And one little aside in the story was very interesting -- they said that, in a particularly Californian way, some new tenants are hiring consultants to cleanse the negative energies from an office building before moving in, to release the sadness or anger or whatever that was left over from previous tenants.
A similar practice, as Bessie noted, is common among Orthodox Christians -- we usually have a priest bless a new home or office when we move in (an office if it's our office, of course; most of us don't presume on our secular employers to allow us to have our priest come in with holy water and incense!), and those blessings are repeated anually, after the Great Blessing of the waters at Theophany.
So, back to California -- would one assume that these consultants are generally neo-pagan priests/priestesses of one sort or another? Or could any neo-pagan perform such rites on behalf someone else if asked? Is this considered a religious duty or practice? Does it seem odd or inappropriate that some have set it up as a business?
Would one assume that the ones hiring the consultants are themselves neo-pagan? Or is it something that has become cool to do in California, without respect to ones own particular religious beliefs?
Thanks, Mertseger, Asdara, and Nightwind, for being willing to answer so many of our questions. Mousethief and I have a close friend who is pagan, and we've talked many times about the resonances we see between his faith and ours, but I haven't had a chance to ask him about that story I heard on NPR. I think I know what he'd say, anyway; it would be really interesting to have someone else's take on it.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
All this stuff about faeries takes me back to theological college...
Ahem!
Alcuin, you are that most bizarre creature the illiberal liberal, with a fundamentalist disdain for anyone who disagrees with your, allegedly, enlightened views.
The view of Jesus of Nazareth you present is one that no serious scholar of the historical Jesus, and by this I don't mean just Christian ones, would agree with. Even the least 'conservative' scholars would hold that some notion of salvation would have been ubiquitous to Jesus' cultural environment, and would add that the idea of the 'Kingdom' (a salvific idea if ever there was one)was central to his teaching. More generally, it is very difficult to imagine a first century Palestinian Jew having views such as those you describe. The Essenes are regularly invoked as ur-types of all sorts of spiritualities, but were basically just boring old monotheistic Jews, I'm afraid. The whole case smacks of the sillier sections of the 'Mind, Body and Spirit' sections of discount bookshops to my mind. Of course you are free to dismiss all of this as cover-up or conspiracy on the part of churchiology, at which point I despair.
I have every respect for, and genuine interest in, pagan beliefs. I'm afraid, however, that your intolerance towards Christians and your blatant attempt to rewrite history (for which, I suppose, you get chutzpha points) is irksome.
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insert amusing sig. here
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
You know, on NPR one morning this week, they were talking about all the office buildings in San Francisco that were standing empty after the dot-com bust, and what uses all that real estate is now being put to. And one little aside in the story was very interesting -- they said that, in a particularly Californian way, some new tenants are hiring consultants to cleanse the negative energies from an office building before moving in, to release the sadness or anger or whatever that was left over from previous tenants.
A similar practice, as Bessie noted, is common among Orthodox Christians -- we usually have a priest bless a new home or office when we move in (an office if it's our office, of course; most of us don't presume on our secular employers to allow us to have our priest come in with holy water and incense!), and those blessings are repeated anually, after the Great Blessing of the waters at Theophany.
So, back to California -- would one assume that these consultants are generally neo-pagan priests/priestesses of one sort or another? Or could any neo-pagan perform such rites on behalf someone else if asked? Is this considered a religious duty or practice? Does it seem odd or inappropriate that some have set it up as a business?
Would one assume that the ones hiring the consultants are themselves neo-pagan? Or is it something that has become cool to do in California, without respect to ones own particular religious beliefs?
Well, even though I work in the SF Financial District, I haven't heard of this service, though it doesn't surprise me. I don't think the story provides enough information to tell the religious persuasion of those who do such work. My guess would be some non-religious New Ager would be opereating such a business. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were Neo-Pagans or even Christian.
The issue of the money in Neo-Paganism is interesting. There's a broad spectrum of beliefs about what is and isn't appropriate all the way from the idea that your psychic abilities are completely interfered with by taking money to the complete opposite where a spell or reading won't work unless the client contributes at least a nomimal amount. I charge 5 cents for a Tarot reading (I don't do it over the internet, though: I need to be in the same room as client since I'm extremely colaborative in my readings).
Whether Neo-Paganism should have a paid clerrgy at all was a hot issue about ten year ago in the community. They are many that believe that part of what we are trying to get away from is a belief that we need intermediaries to the Gods. One the other hand, clergy perform a variety of other services to a community and some of our elders were not being well taken care of after a lifetime of service. I think most are coming to accept the inevitability of paid clergy as the religion grows larger and more organized. But there's still some resistance.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Alcuin
Shipmate
# 2089
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Posted
In his post of the 10th July (19:59), Mertseger commented: "Christianity does not have a magical practice, though as I alluded to before charismatic sects come pretty close."
I respect this view of yours, Mertseger, but I do not agree with it. In my opinion, Christianity is pure white magic. Think of prayer, think of the acquaintance of angels, think of the agriglyphs, think of ascension, think of reincarnation.
And even churchianity has retained magical ritual: think of the eucharist. If the celebrant is a priest of the Petrine lineage, the angel of the eucharistic presence is always there on the etheric planes above and to the east of the altar. He is there from the invocation to the dismissal and is manifest to clairsentient view.
But I know what you mean about charismatic sects. Individuals within these do sometimes accidentally open up to lower astral energies in a way that might reasonably be called magical. A few years ago we had the Toronto "blessing". This, perhaps, was an uncontrolled channelling of mischievous animal (and other) energies. The uncontrolled mischief was dignified, for a while, with the name "Holy Spirit", I recall.
Alcuin
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alcuin--
What, please, are "agriglyphs"? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
If I'm dissecting that correctly (agri=related to farm/field; glyphs=picture writing), the only meaning I can think of is crop circles! While they're interesting to look at, they're not part of Christianity.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Pagan ideas of the afterlife.
Would someone talk about this, please?
Among Pagans I know and in my reading, I've usually come across reincarnation combined with a stay in Summerland between lives. I've met Pagans who believe in an *endless* cycle of reincarnation--no ultimate destination of any kind.
*Personally*, I find that last idea terrifying.
Thanks in advance!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alcuin:
In his post of the 10th July (19:59), Mertseger commented: "Christianity does not have a magical practice, though as I alluded to before charismatic sects come pretty close."
I respect this view of yours, Mertseger, but I do not agree with it. In my opinion, Christianity is pure white magic. Think of prayer, think of the acquaintance of angels, think of the agriglyphs, think of ascension, think of reincarnation.
And even churchianity has retained magical ritual: think of the eucharist. If the celebrant is a priest of the Petrine lineage, the angel of the eucharistic presence is always there on the etheric planes above and to the east of the altar. He is there from the invocation to the dismissal and is manifest to clairsentient view.
But I know what you mean about charismatic sects. Individuals within these do sometimes accidentally open up to lower astral energies in a way that might reasonably be called magical. A few years ago we had the Toronto "blessing". This, perhaps, was an uncontrolled channelling of mischievous animal (and other) energies. The uncontrolled mischief was dignified, for a while, with the name "Holy Spirit", I recall.
Alcuin
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
[HOST MODE]
quote:
Originally posted by Alcuin:
even churchianity ...
Alcuin, as has been said several times before (including by Josephine on this thread) the word "churchianity" is heavily loaded, and to many people deeply offensive. It has the strong implication that attending church, and the associated liturgy and ritual, is somehow different from Christianity. And, what is more, your use of "even" implies that it is inferior to Christianity.
Please apologise for your continuing use of the word, and restrain from using it in the future. Discussions of the place of ritual and liturgy in Christian worship are, of course, welcome - but not on this thread.
Alan
Purgatory host
[/HOST MODE]
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alcuin:
And even churchianity has retained magical ritual: think of the eucharist. If the celebrant is a priest of the Petrine lineage, the angel of the eucharistic presence is always there on the etheric planes above and to the east of the altar. He is there from the invocation to the dismissal and is manifest to clairsentient view.
I don't suppose you could provide any credible sources showing how widespread this belief is/ ever has been, could you?
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insert amusing sig. here
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
And: about that "Neo" thing. I have never come across a British pagan who prefixes "neo" to the name of their religion. Having said that, every British pagan I met was under the impression that they were the "old" religion. Evidence suggests to me that this honesty among pagans is an American phenomenon. Actually, a significantly larger proportion of British pagans seem to be stark staring mad, as opposed to a much larger Sensible Tendency among American pagans. Is this a fair comment? Or am I descending into unhelpful racial stereotyping?
Strangely enough, when I was in England, I never met another Pagan. Lancaster University had an occult student group, but they all were only interested in various forms of magic without religion. So I can't comment on the British Pagans (although I'd much prefer to be living in England again, does that count? ![[Wink]](wink.gif) )
America certainly has it's loonies though, and a fair number of them. Silver Ravenwolf I think is the absolute worst. She has more than a dozen books in print and she still sticks to the ancient religion, 9 million dead wiccans routine. Edain mcCoy I think is American, and she wrote about this wonder ful branch of Wicca called Witta that was practiced in Ireland for thousands of years, all off the testimony of ONE supposed Witta priestess. Then we get titles like "How to be a witch in 7 days" and "Emergency Magic":
quote:
Sometimes it’s not enough to wrestle the alligator or jump from a moving car. Sometimes survival depends on fate, or the favor of the gods, or on the mysterious powers of the mind. That’s when you need Emergency Magic. Offering 150 spells for 75 different dire situations, Emergency Magic gives readers the tools to escape all kind of potential danger.
You’ll learn spells for: Making your mother-in-law love you Keeping your boyfriend faithful Fitting into your wedding dress Protecting your cad from theft Getting rid of ghosts Landing a new job …and 69 other worst-cast scenarios
The weird history thing may be dieing off, but now we're just getting all this goofy, absurd, watched-Harry-Potter-too-many-times stuff. I go to the Wicca/Witchcraft section of bookstores nowadays mostly for a laugh, but it's a rather strained laugh. It's just embarassing.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightwind:
America certainly has it's loonies though, and a fair number of them.
<major snip>
The weird history thing may be dieing off, but now we're just getting all this goofy, absurd, watched-Harry-Potter-too-many-times stuff. I go to the Wicca/Witchcraft section of bookstores nowadays mostly for a laugh, but it's a rather strained laugh. It's just embarassing.
Yeah, Christian books can be embarassing, too.
At least your loonies aren't shouting and money-grubbing on tv, the way ours are! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 14. July 2003, 03:53: Message edited by: golden key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ben26:
A) If I have understood correctly, most Pagans are ex-Christians or people who were brought up in strongly Christian homes. I'm not knocking that. However, I am curious as to why this would be so. I realise that this thread is not about peoples personal lives/experiences and I respect that. Some general trends regarding the sociology of this would be interesting though if people don't object to the question.
B) I am still not 100% certain of the difference between Paganism and Wiccan. I hope I am not being thick but further details on this point would also be nice.
A)
I think it has more to do with the fact that we live in strongly Christian communities (at least over here in America). If you randomly pointed at someone in a crowd, odds are they would be a Christian. Therefore, when someone leaves their religion and becomes Pagan, odds are they're going to have come from Christianity.
There are reasons, however, that I hear time and time again from Pagans on why they left Christianity. These include - need of a feminine divine, interest in experience over dogma, feelings of separation from nature, a need to escape patriarchy (which I usually envision being said ina tone similiar to that of the Church Lady on Saturday Night Live when she says "Could it be....SAAAAATAAAN?")
I personally don't agree with any of those reasons.
B) Mertseger has already answered this, but in case there's still confusion, I believe when I say Pagan and he says Neo-Pagan, we're meaning the same thing. There are some people who differentiate between the two terms, but most, I think, consider them synonymous.
Groups that frequently call themselves Pagan include Wiccans, Witches, Goddess Spiritualists, and the various Reconstructionist religions such as Asatru (Norse) and Kemetic Religion (Egyptian). There's virtually nothing you can say that you can say is common between all those religions as far as beliefs go. I think of Pagan to mean a modern religion influenced to some degree by pre-Christian religion. This is why I've mostly kept my comments specific to Wicca, which is my personal branch of Paganism. I find generalizing about Pagans in general tends to just get ugly.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
Posts: 117 | Registered: May 2003
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
At least your loonies aren't shouting and money-grubbing on tv, the way ours are!
Only because there's not yet a big enough market. I was just reading a Wicca book tonight in which the author relates stories of people selling $1400 ritual daggers and offering training in exchange for a percentage of the student's income for the rest of their life. The latter is outright cultish and scary as all hell. Just proves that there are unscrupulous people everywhere. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Even Ravenwolf writes things like how everyone around you will start noticing that you're more lucky and fortunate and successful if you start practicing magic, which sounds like serious incentive to buy more of her books so you can learn more of this great and wonderful stuff.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Asdara:
The Christians (or Puritains or whatever they were) who burned them
Not, on the whole, Puritans. Mostly Roman Catholics.
[slight tangent]
I don't think this is entirely true. If I remember correctly protestant Scotland and Germany were pretty enthusiastic witch burners.
From what I've read (I think in Cohn's "The Witchcraze in early modern Europe" though I can't verify that right now), the RC countries were keener on burning heretics, but by the time the witch craze had really got underway had begun to feel that torturing and burning were not the most positive way of dealing with the issue. The mass heretic persecutions of earlier medieval times had made a lot of people within the church rather wary of this kind of thing. Not that it didn't happen, but outbreaks of witch burning in RC countries tended to be more localized and somewhat contained by the authority structure of the church - often someone from outside, who was not caught up in the hysteria, would come to investigate what was going on and put a stop to it. The looser, often unformed, hierarchies of the new protestant churches meant that it was easier for hysteria to run out of control in protestant areas.
I believe that the official policy of the RC church at this time was that putative witches should be treated as insane or deluded. There are certainly recorded incidences of someone spontaneously coming to the Inquisition and confessing that they flew to Finland to kiss the devil's bottom (or something), only for the inquisition to say the early modern equivalent of "No you didn't, go away you sad, mad person". Obviously, official policy was not always followed on a local level though.
I am writing from rather distant memory, so may be deluding myself, but I think the popular association between the RC church, the inquisition and witch burning is an unfair one. A re-reading of the book may prove me wrong (if I remember correctly it is a damn good book, and worth reading).
[/slight tangent]
[added missing words]
Rat
[ 14. July 2003, 11:08: Message edited by: Rat ]
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Asdara
Shipmate
# 4533
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Posted
Okay, I just read everything between my last post and this post here. If I miss anything (and I will) hopefully I can come back for it later, or if you want an answer you haven't gotten, ask again.
BTW I'm totally thrilled how well this thread is going. I've learned some new materials and I think everyone else posting seems to be pretty postitive about keeping the thread on track so... ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Anyway, Pagan afterlife ideas. This is a huge, huge, topic of discussion because it's highly personal and most Neo-pagans have different ideas about what is beyond this life.
MOST people can agree on: we re-incarnate(to a greater or lesser degree), there is some type of "land beyond" (heaven, summerlands, some type of lay-over terminal or what have you) and generally some type of ascension at the completion of the cycle. That's about all.
My personal beliefs are that we re-incarnate, learning lessons (our soul-not us the people we are not nessasarily, although kinda-don't get me started) and then between lives we rest and recoup in the summerlands (or a place of similar nature) reveiwing our lessons. Then we can plan our next lives (to a certain extent and with the help of our gods and the gods within) to learn our next lessons. So it goes until we have leanred what all can be gleaned from the human experiance and the animal experiance. At that point we would either ascend to oneness with our gods or move on to some other plane/dimension/ect to learn some other experiance (perhaps a solely spirit experiance for example) and the cycle would continue until we had learned sufficently to re-join our gods/nature/the cosmos/ect.
That's a personal theory. I also believe that we tend to re-incarnate with virtually the same group of souls (kinda like a "class" I guess you'd say) of differing ages, but similar lessons required.
Okay, I'm spent. Let me know what I missed/forgot to address guys.
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Not all those who wander are lost. -- J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 239 | From: Illinios | Registered: May 2003
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
I agree with you Rat on the history thing. The witch-craze tended to center in areas of greatest unrest, particularly religious unrest. Where the RC Church had a firm grip, such as in Spain, the persecution was relatively mild. Protestantism was fairly volatile by nature at the time, and so the burnings did indeed tend toward Protestant areas. England is a notable exception to this. Only under James I (who was personally a paranoid freak about Witchcraft - presumably because of his upbringing in Scotland) did the trials really take off, and they still generally paled in comparison to what was going on on the Continent.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Archangels Michael & Faith have a holiday home in Banff, Canada?
Visalise purple flames or whatever. Open windows and crystals? Apply salt to the body to clease it of demons?
Methinks I smell, if not a troll, at least a mildly subtle parody of new-agey neo-pagan wooly-crystal fluffy-bunny waffle coming from the being posting as Alcuin.
Feng shui next?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightwind:
Only because there's not yet a big enough market. I was just reading a Wicca book tonight in which the author relates stories of people selling $1400 ritual daggers and offering training in exchange for a percentage of the student's income for the rest of their life. The latter is outright cultish and scary as all hell. Just proves that there are unscrupulous people everywhere.
Even Ravenwolf writes things like how everyone around you will start noticing that you're more lucky and fortunate and successful if you start practicing magic, which sounds like serious incentive to buy more of her books so you can learn more of this great and wonderful stuff.
I can't think of any reason why your money-grubbing looneys would be any different from our money-grubbing looneys. People is people, when a's said and done. I was in a "new age" shop not that long ago, listening to the shopkeeper purvey a sizeable (and expensive) quartz crystal as a known specific for a list of ailments that would have made an old-time hair tonic salesman smile in admiration.
[ 14. July 2003, 14:42: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Methinks I smell, if not a troll, at least a mildly subtle parody of new-agey neo-pagan wooly-crystal fluffy-bunny waffle coming from the being posting as Alcuin.
HA ha ha ha ha!
I normally don't make pointless posts like this, but that line was absolutely precious. I think it was the waffle at the end that got me. ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
Posts: 117 | Registered: May 2003
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Asdara:
The Christians (or Puritains or whatever they were) who burned them
Not, on the whole, Puritans. Mostly Roman Catholics.
[slight tangent]
I don't think this is entirely true. If I remember correctly protestant Scotland and Germany were pretty enthusiastic witch burners.
From what I've read (I think in Cohn's "The Witchcraze in early modern Europe" though I can't verify that right now), the RC countries were keener on burning heretics, but by the time the witch craze had really got underway had begun to feel that torturing and burning were not the most positive way of dealing with the issue. The mass heretic persecutions of earlier medieval times had made a lot of people within the church rather wary of this kind of thing. Not that it didn't happen, but outbreaks of witch burning in RC countries tended to be more localized and somewhat contained by the authority structure of the church - often someone from outside, who was not caught up in the hysteria, would come to investigate what was going on and put a stop to it. The looser, often unformed, hierarchies of the new protestant churches meant that it was easier for hysteria to run out of control in protestant areas.
I believe that the official policy of the RC church at this time was that putative witches should be treated as insane or deluded. There are certainly recorded incidences of someone spontaneously coming to the Inquisition and confessing that they flew to Finland to kiss the devil's bottom (or something), only for the inquisition to say the early modern equivalent of "No you didn't, go away you sad, mad person". Obviously, official policy was not always followed on a local level though.
I am writing from rather distant memory, so may be deluding myself, but I think the popular association between the RC church, the inquisition and witch burning is an unfair one. A re-reading of the book may prove me wrong (if I remember correctly it is a damn good book, and worth reading).
[/slight tangent]
[added missing words]
Rat
Rat,
you're on the right lines there but are a bit confused.
There's no such thing as Germany in early modern times - there was a patchwork of different states occupying roughly the area of modern day Germany: some Protestant and some Catholic. Some of these states (both Protestant and Catholic) were amongst the most enthusiastic witch burners.
The distinction between states which preferred to pursue heretics, as opposed to those which were very keen on pursuing witches is between Northern and Southern Catholicism, not between Protestantism and RC.
Spain and Italy adhered to an older interpretation of canon law which roughly said that those who claimed to be witches were making it up and should, more or less, be given a penance for wasting inquisitorial time (as happened in the Basque country where an inquisitor investigated witch cases and concluded that they were groundless).
Other Catholic states did not adhere to such an interpretation and were pretty keen on burning witches (France is a notable example).
The extent of witch burning has a lot to do with legal systems and standards of evidence, as well as religious attitudes.
Scotland is similar to other northern European states. Check out Scottish witches here: Survey of Scottish witchcraft
cheers,
Louise
[ 14. July 2003, 18:40: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Asdara, thanks for the afterlife info.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
I don't think this is entirely true. If I remember correctly protestant Scotland and Germany were pretty enthusiastic witch burners.
Rat,
you're on the right lines there but are a bit confused.
There's no such thing as Germany in early modern times - there was a patchwork of different states occupying roughly the area of modern day Germany: some Protestant and some Catholic. Some of these states (both Protestant and Catholic) were amongst the most enthusiastic witch burners.
Oh honestly, Louise, you always correct me - couldn't you just let a little bit of factual inexactitude slip by so I can feel like my brain hasn't totally turned to mush?
You are correct of course, I did know that Germany didn't exist and the area wasn't in the particularly mono-cultural - I was just being lazy calling it Germany. Although I am pretty sure that the book I read did say the protestant states in the-area-vaguely-comparable-to-Germany were especially enthusiastic. A phrase suggesting that these states burned more witches in three years than the inquisition did in its entire existence is stuck in my head for some reason. However, as we all know in the light of dodgy dossiers, its a bad idea to rely on a single source - you have obviously read more widely and certainly more recently than I have.
That is interesting about a North/South divide - I hadn't thought about it that way, but it fits perfectly with the examples I had in my head. I guess I was assuming too high a level of conformity among Catholic countries.
I do agree it is too simplistic to say that witch-burning fell out neatly along religious lines, and I hope I didn't suggest that. There were all sorts of issues of social instability and political upheaval too, which were factors in creating an environment ripe for mass hysteria.
[anybody want to talk about Cathars? - I'm good on Cathars ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ]
Rat
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
[anybody want to talk about Cathars? - I'm good on Cathars ]
Rat
Please, tell me about Cathars! (Honestly, I do want to know. A Wiccan friend of mine is writing a book (fiction) and brings in the Cathars at one point, I don't know enough about them to offer criticism/help.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
I'd like to know about cathars too. Are they connected to the knights templar?
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
as happened in the Basque country where an inquisitor investigated witch cases and concluded that they were groundless
Or, as some claimed, were preparing to get serious about inquiring into the affairs of the women of one village, and had locked them up, when all of a sudden the fishing fleet returned from the North Atlantic, and the men were very cross...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
I'd like to know about cathars too. Are they connected to the knights templar?
See the Wikipedia Entry on Cathars.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
I'd like to know about cathars too. Are they connected to the knights templar?
See the Wikipedia Entry on Cathars.
That about covers it, I'm sure better than I could have, thank you Laura.
For an interesting read about some of the last remants of Catharism, Montaillou by Emanuelle Ladurie is a good book. An in-depth look at life in a mediaeval village, gleaned mainly from the records of the inquisition. A particular star is a chap, who's name I've forgotten, who claims to be both a Catholic priest and a Cathar Perfecti (Perfectus?), while simultaneously having it away with every female he can lay his hands on.
Rat
[ 16. July 2003, 09:49: Message edited by: Rat ]
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
I'd like to know about cathars too. Are they connected to the knights templar?
In two ways:
- The Cathars and the Knights Templar used to kill each other a lot
- both have been used by all sorts of loonies who know nothing about them to shore up all sorts of absurd arguments
I have an Internet Law of my own to supplement the famous Godwin's Law. Whenever anyone brings the Knight's Templar into an argument, they don't know what they are talking about
Just mentioning them doesn't count - using them to support your side almost always does
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
Thank you for the references. I had got quite a lot of information on cathars and knights templar from various search engines but I wondered how it fitted in with paganism and wicca.
Information available on line seems to be either well researched with historical notes or utterly barking mad but then that's the internet for you.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
I don't think anyone's suggesting a link between modern Paganism/Wicca and Cathars. Someone was just expressing he had knowledge of them.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
Posts: 117 | Registered: May 2003
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Asdara
Shipmate
# 4533
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Posted
Well, I think that pretty much wraps up the "Ask your local pagan" portion of our thread. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Thanks for keeping it civil everyone. If anyone has anymore questions feel free to post them here, or send a PM to either myself or (and I'm assuming she's open to this) Nightwind or any of the other pagans/christian-pagans you saw post here. Thanks again all for the great convo.
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Not all those who wander are lost. -- J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 239 | From: Illinios | Registered: May 2003
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I nominate this thread, when it's done, for limbo.
I second this.
quote:
Originally posted by Asdara:
Well, I think that pretty much wraps up the "Ask your local pagan" portion of our thread.
Thanks for keeping it civil everyone. <snip> Thanks again all for the great convo.
Likewise, thanks to y'all for inviting and engaging us in such a thoughtful and fascinating discussion.
Since this began, I've even found myself in the bookstore looking for some of the titles mentioned on this thread.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Would it be fair to suggest that paganism, as practised by individuals, becomes less and less corporate?
Putting it another way all our pagan shipmates have taken pains to point out general pagan beliefs and then say how their beliefs differ. In effect, it seems to me, to be that being a pagan is actually creating a mythology that suits oneself.
Further still Paganism is in fact a “feel good” cult in which there are no doctrines or dogmas. Each adherents journey is their own. Lacking any tradition against which beliefs may be challenged each pagan simply finds the route of least resistance to the “next stage.” That there is no such thing as heresy in paganism because there is nothing concrete to have a contrary opinion to.
I have enjoyed this thread and thank all the careful participants. I have avoided posting because for a woolly liberal I find myself lacking the admirable control shown by all sides here. And that I find disconcerting.
Sadly all that has been posted here by my pagan shipmates has only served to further my concerns. I have highlighted my main concern above. And in one sense I have pre-judged and need not hear any reply. I recognise that Christianity is as fraught with human failure as all other human enterprises but for millennia it has called people to a common creed and life to which the host of heaven testify to its veracity and efficacy.
Every pagan I have ever met or heard is happily reinventing (what has been reinvented a hundred times already, in its at bets 70 year journey) their own journey to suit their own psychological, emotional and spiritual state. That journey is never rigorously tested and when it feels lack some freshness is passing a bit more is bolted on.
I do not know why the subject of paganism, above all others, brings out the fundie in me. I try hard not to equate those strong emotions with negative ones but sometimes I fail. In this failing I feel like I am not doing the spirit of this thread justice, sorry.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Putting it another way all our pagan shipmates have taken pains to point out general pagan beliefs and then say how their beliefs differ. In effect, it seems to me, to be that being a pagan is actually creating a mythology that suits oneself.
Further still Paganism is in fact a “feel good” cult in which there are no doctrines or dogmas. Each adherents journey is their own. Lacking any tradition against which beliefs may be challenged each pagan simply finds the route of least resistance to the “next stage.” That there is no such thing as heresy in paganism because there is nothing concrete to have a contrary opinion to.
You're still looking at Paganism as a single religion. It's not. We talk about general beliefs because we are all different branches. Generalizing about Paganism is frought with more peril than trying to generalize about Abrahamic faiths. Expecting us Pagans to give a unified answer on our religion is like expecting the same of a Jew, Christian and a Muslim.
I'm much more specific about Wicca. There are things I consider Wiccan even though I do not agree with them, just as people of one Christian denomination consider members of other denominations Christian, even though they don't agree on all points. There are things, however, that I do not believe are Wiccan. The one that immediately coems to mind are those who believe only in the Great Goddess. Balance is central in Wicca. It requires God and Goddess.
Wicca is only about 60 years old. Therefore, there is very little "tradition" to fall back to. Look had how much Christianity evolved over it's first few centuries. We're still in the growing stages.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
Posts: 117 | Registered: May 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
Doffs Christian and puts on Neo-Pagan hat.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Would it be fair to suggest that paganism, as practised by individuals, becomes less and less corporate?
No, it really would not be fair to make such an assessment, nor is it true. You seem to be suggesting that every Neo-Pagan picks and chooses those parts of the various religions which are available, and, thus, there is less and less commonality between Neo-Pagans over time. Nightwing's comments about the diverstiy of the religion are apropos, but, more than that, the reverse seems to happen to individuals more often than not. That is, many people (particularly after the important year for pagan publication that occured in 1979) start out on their Neo-Pagan faith journey by grabbing bits and pieces from what they have read and putting together a solitary practice, but as they are drawn to the community they often find a more formalized training and liturgy in a Tradition which meets their needs. Thus, the religion of individual Neo-Pagans often becomes more and more corporate rather than less and less.
But having said that, my Tradition affirms the paths of solitaries (those who can not or choose not to join with others for whatever reason) and eclectics (those who incorporate a wide variety of Traditions into their practice). We have found that people who come to Neo-Paganism through solitary practice tend to be more dedicated because they have managed to sustain a religous life without any kind of corporate support. The eclectics tend to be more scholarly having investigated many Traditions in order to incorporate the lore into their practice. We welcome and encourage both these gifts.
quote:
Putting it another way all our pagan shipmates have taken pains to point out general pagan beliefs and then say how their beliefs differ. In effect, it seems to me, to be that being a pagan is actually creating a mythology that suits oneself.
Very few Neo-Pagans create mythology. I am intrigued by the human capacity to do so, but that's not really what happens in general.
What is true is that Neo-Pagans are generally open to the truth of a wide variety of mythologies. Some Pagan Revivalists restrict their attention to a single mythic cycle, but even in such cases they remain open to the fact that other mythologies do speak effectively to other people. In the more general Neo-Pagan community it is not uncommon to hear people name Diana, Isis, Inanna, Bridget and Cerridwyn in the same ritual. No, we do not think that that are all the same Goddess. Yes, we do think that They all exist and act in the World even though They were originally worshipped by widely different cultures and in widely different times.
Nor do we embrace these Goddesses simply to suit ourselves and our passing whim. We worship these Goddess (and other Goddesses and Gods) because doing so honors Them, honors Their activity in the world, honors the Goddess who acts through through Them, and honors our forebearers who worshipped Them first. We worship these Goddesses because doing so helps to cleanse us of the patterns and behaviors (like consumerism or patriarchal oppression) which modern society seems to encourage in us. We worship these Goddesses because doing so brings us into a closer relationship to the Earth.
quote:
Further still Paganism is in fact a “feel good” cult in which there are no doctrines or dogmas.
I would say "few" rather than "no" doctrines or dogmas, and would be proud of that fact. But I strongly object to the dismisal of our religion as either "feel good" or a cult.
My Tradition is an ecstatic religion. There is an ecstasy to be found when you truly open up to God, and that ecstasy can be found in every religion (and, most certainly, in Christianity). But you seem to be saying that Neo-Paganism is shallowly supporting and encouraging the whims and urges of its adherents, and that is just not true. We take our responsilities as Preistesses and stewards of the Earth quite seriously.
Nor is it true that Neo-Paganism is a cult. There was certainly concerns even within the community itself about Neo-Paganism being like the Moonies or Scientology in the 70's and 80's when the religion was smaller and was still being led in some cases by a few chrismatic leaders. However, there has been such a strong emphasis on the power of the individual to think for themselves since Neo-Paganism's beginnings that it never has really been close to being a cult.
quote:
Each adherents journey is their own. Lacking any tradition against which beliefs may be challenged each pagan simply finds the route of least resistance to the “next stage.” That there is no such thing as heresy in paganism because there is nothing concrete to have a contrary opinion to.
You have just described what is commonly called and railed against in Neo-Paganism the "fluffy bunny." They exist. They are not the majority. Nor do I condem them as some would. The one person in my advanced training who made it all the way through to initiation with me was a complete fluffy bunny when she started out. She pushed any sort negativity away from herself and acted like her religion and herself should contain nothing but sweetness and light. But she went deeper as we got into training, and she eventually found and tapped into her inner bitch. I was so proud. And through her example I came to have hope for fluffy bunnies in general.
quote:
Sadly all that has been posted here by my pagan shipmates has only served to further my concerns. I have highlighted my main concern above. And in one sense I have pre-judged and need not hear any reply.
You're predjudiced and don't want to hear it? That hardly matches the Pyx_e I know from Hell.
quote:
I recognise that Christianity is as fraught with human failure as all other human enterprises but for millennia it has called people to a common creed and life to which the host of heaven testify to its veracity and efficacy.
You have a direct line to the host of heaven, too? That's odd, when I talk to them, they seem to like and to be actively nurturing this new religion (particularly the hostesses). In all seriousness, Neo-Paganism can not claim millenia of Tradition yet, but as to the efficacy and veracity of that which is held in common within the individual Traditions within Neo-Paganism, I believe that they match that of any religion.
quote:
Every pagan I have ever met or heard is happily reinventing (what has been reinvented a hundred times already, in its at bets 70 year journey) their own journey to suit their own psychological, emotional and spiritual state. That journey is never rigorously tested and when it feels lack some freshness is passing a bit more is bolted on.
That journey is never rigorously tested? You try living out as a minority religion in a predominantly Christian (at least in its trappings and heritage) country. Look, we as Neo-Pagans don't see the need for Neo-Pagan martyrs, and the adverse effects of being Neo-Pagan are as nothing when compared to persecutions that Christians and Jews have experienced at various points in their history. Nevertheless, there is job discrimination (as in people have lost their jobs) and governmental discimination (people have lost their kids) merely for being openly Neo-Pagan. Our faith is tested and challenged all the time by the differing values of the larger culture in the same way as the faith of any religious person is challenged by the values of an increasing secular society.
As for the inventiveness of Neo-Paganism: that's not a bug, that's a feature. Yes, there is some arbitrariness to the accretion in our religion, and a few individuals use that as an excuse to believe what ever they want to believe. But most Neo-Pagans are hoenstly seeking a deeper relationship to the Goddess who is the Earth, to the Goddess who is the All-That-Is. We do not regard the individual or the self as inherently bad (no Original Sin, though when we sin, we try to do so in as original manner as we can ), but, that being said, we do affirm that we as individuals and, in particular, our "psychological, emotional and spiritual" desires are but a small part of All-That-Is. We trust, therefore, in the Goddess to reconcile the good of the one with the good of the many, and in serving Her we understand that the good of the many (including all sentient beings and living creatures and ecosystems not just humans) comes first.
I'm glad you stated your trepidations, and no one is asking you to be Neo-Pagan. But we do wish to be understood a bit better, and I hope that my words can help in that for you.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Mertseger, Nightwind and Asdara (who pmed me) thank you for your measured and careful responses. I posted partly because it felt a bit like this thread was closing and I wanted to step in. I still have much to discuss not least because of your recent posts.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
OK, to continue. I accept all that has been written and in one sense I am not trying persuade you (or you me) but to learn a different perspective to think upon. And you have given me that.
I would add to the previous point that the pagans I have most contact with are your three, who are sensible, have thought out your faith and are prepared to be onboard the ship with all it slings and arrows. I also live near Glastonbury, I often go there and retreat to the abbey annually. So I recognise the “fluffy bunny” you describe (indeed Christianity has its proportion of the same sort) but I would add to that (seemingly to me) a high proportion of disaffected, drug taking, immature adults who seem to use pagan ideas as a framework to not engage with life in any meaningful way.
Which leads me on to my next point. Every Sunday I say in church:
“Our Lord Jesus Christ said:
The first commandment is this:
‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is the only Lord.
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, with all your mind,
and with all your strength.’
The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’
There is no other commandment greater than these.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
Now I am not trying to argue that Christian Scripture is in and of itself right. But my whole life has pointed me in the direction of the first commandment:
“I am the Lord your God: you shall have no other gods but me.”
It is clear to me that We were made to worship God. He is our purpose, our only salvation, our lodestone and our only truth. In my daily life and in my observation of the lives of those around me my/our contentment and usefulness depends almost entirely on what we chose to worship. We may worship a huge diversity of things, feelings, “principalities and powers” , indeed our propensity to NOT worship God is astounding. In some of these false idols little harm is found. If the center of ones life is an obsession with Manchester United or maybe Princess Diane, then that idolization is not as dangerous as one which may include for instance alcohol, sex, money, power or the visible and invisible powers of this world.
So I am faced with a provable truth in my life. Those things which I consider to be “false idols” have unerringly lead me and those around me to unhappiness. It is possible to worship them and receive great rewards but ultimately they are a hollow as the Golden Calf. God seems pretty clear on this one to me. He asks of his followers a level of obedience in this because it is best for them, not because he needs worship.
Of course this is where the rubber hits the road for us now. I stand in great danger of seeming to tell you that your whole belief structure is not only worthless but positively harmful! You therefore, I hope, can see my trepidation on entering this thread. Due in some large part to me knowing that the things “I” am often most certain about are the things “I” have often got most wrong. This is not a fear of me being wrong ( I would not be here if I were not wanting to hear your thoughts) but a fear of being to erm harsh? maybe.
In short I consider the worship of any other gods to be the worship of false idols. This opinion is not based (solely) on scripture but on my own life experience and my observations of others around me Christian (yes Christians fall away), pagans and type of person in between. I still contend that the inherent propensity to worship anything but God (it is just our pride) coupled with the seemingly pagan attitude of finding ones own path as well as the ever present human conditions of self delusion and self righteousness leads me to believe still that paganism is inherently dangerous.
I am not so blind as to not see many of the above qualities glaring out my own last paragraph. This is very difficult.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
I am not so blind as to not see many of the above qualities glaring out my own last paragraph. This is very difficult.
You have only defended what you believe, and admirably so. It is good to lay out our faith at times and see it as it is. Although it may be "difficult", I hope you can still nod and say, "Yes, that's it for me." And I think you practiced the careful concern you were admiring in others.
Thank you for speaking with your heart, your soul, your mind, and, I believe, with great strength.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
In short I consider the worship of any other gods to be the worship of false idols. This opinion is not based (solely) on scripture but on my own life experience and my observations of others around me Christian (yes Christians fall away), pagans and type of person in between. I still contend that the inherent propensity to worship anything but God (it is just our pride) coupled with the seemingly pagan attitude of finding ones own path as well as the ever present human conditions of self delusion and self righteousness leads me to believe still that paganism is inherently dangerous.
FWIW, they *are* worshipping the Divine as they understand it.
I know of Pagans--one dear friend in particular--who work hard at becoming better people and being an agent of the Divine by putting as much good into the world as they can.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
FWIW, they *are* worshipping the Divine as they understand it.
I know of Pagans--one dear friend in particular--who work hard at becoming better people and being an agent of the Divine by putting as much good into the world as they can.
Firstly, I know many heroin addicts who are worshipping the divine as they understand it. I consider the worship of some of the pagans gods to be as wicked.
Secondly it does not overly help to cite individuals. I acknowledge that there are pagans who are more loving than many Christians. It is not what you do but the why that you do it.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
From Pyx_e
quote:
It is not what you do but the why that you do it.
Jesus did not make that distinction, read the sermon on the mount.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
LH, that answer was in direct reply to GK's point and a continuation of the commandment to Love God and our neighbour (which Jesus also said). From that I could argue that the sermon on the mount is a very strong expression of the “why” of God in that it promises hope, comfort and a place with Him for the little, lost, last and least.
In short my point is that unless, in ones actions and the way one lives ones life, one is striving to adhere to that commandment (it is the “why” behind ones life) then all is vanity.
It is possible to be a “good” pagan and a “bad” Christian. We can not make any absolute arguments. And far be it form me to decide or tell God who is going to make it. That is His prerogative. But at the risk of being repetitive He is , in my opinion pretty convincing on what it is right for us to worhsip Him alone and the experience of my life bears it out.
Pagan gods, whilst in one sense are often very real are not in any way shape or form similar to God, who expressed his love to us in His Son. The worship of them is, in my opinion ultimately damaging.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I would add to the previous point that the pagans I have most contact with are your three, who are sensible, have thought out your faith and are prepared to be onboard the ship with all it slings and arrows. I also live near Glastonbury, I often go there and retreat to the abbey annually. So I recognise the “fluffy bunny” you describe (indeed Christianity has its proportion of the same sort) but I would add to that (seemingly to me) a high proportion of disaffected, drug taking, immature adults who seem to use pagan ideas as a framework to not engage with life in any meaningful way.
Eep! Glastonbury can be a scary, scary place as far as Fluffies are concerned. Judging Paganism on Glastonbury is like judging American morality on Las Vegas.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
Posts: 117 | Registered: May 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
“I am the Lord your God: you shall have no other gods but me.”
This is, AFIAK, a legitimate interpretation but not a legitimate translation. Most English translations have Exodus 20:3 and Deuteronomy 5:7 as "You shall have no other gods before me." And, clearly, there are other perfectly legitimate interpretations of that translation.
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It is clear to me that We were made to worship God.
Sure, if you accept that there was a single creator God who then communicated to humans solely through the Bible (and, perhaps, certain specific, Christian traditions).
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He is our purpose, our only salvation, our lodestone and our only truth.
What do you mean "our", Kimosabe?
This attitude is one of the most infuriating and patronizing thing about conservative Christianity. I'd accept it if you actually meant the group of people who share your religion, but, no, the context makes it pretty clear that you mean that it should be true for every human being.
quote:
In my daily life and in my observation of the lives of those around me my/our contentment and usefulness depends almost entirely on what we chose to worship. We may worship a huge diversity of things, feelings, “principalities and powers” , indeed our propensity to NOT worship God is astounding. In some of these false idols little harm is found. If the center of ones life is an obsession with Manchester United or maybe Princess Diane, then that idolization is not as dangerous as one which may include for instance alcohol, sex, money, power or the visible and invisible powers of this world.
Oddly, I think many Neo-Pagans would agree with the substance of your argument here. One possible interpretation of the idea of "false idols" is that there are Gods that can cause harm to those who serve them. The Neo-Pagan view of the matter tends to be that the forces and powers in the universe are there for a purpose, but sometimes these forces are misused or become out of balance. However, that fact does no preclude our enjoyment of those forces when they are not misused or out of balance, nor does it mean that we should solely direct our attention to the Goddess in ritual.
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So I am faced with a provable truth in my life. Those things which I consider to be “false idols” have unerringly lead me and those around me to unhappiness. It is possible to worship them and receive great rewards but ultimately they are a hollow as the Golden Calf. God seems pretty clear on this one to me. He asks of his followers a level of obedience in this because it is best for them, not because he needs worship.
Okay, so if we set up a test to measure the happiness of participants of various religions after a lifetime of practice, you'll accept the results if the some of the ones who did not particularly "obey" the Christian version of the one God were the happiest? Of course not. In the Christian paradigm to which you apparently subscribe any suffering to obey the Lord merits reward in heaven, and, therefore, earthly happiness is not an indicator of salvation. Thus, there is no test that can be performed to validate your hypothesis since the results can only be assessed in the hereafter.
I am not disagreeing with you that there are some harmful things to which people can unconsciously or consciously dedicate their lives. I am not convinced, however, that some forms of Christianity are not without their own dangers to some their individual adherents. (The brother of one of my housemates in college shot and killed his ex-girlfriend on the streets of San Jose because she had been telling their fundamentalist Christian community that he had raped her because she could not admit in that community that she, you know, had sex with him. There is no excuse for his action, but the strictures of their religion definitely played a large role in the tragedy.) Nor, am I convinced that worshipping any other God necessarily leads to harm.
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Of course this is where the rubber hits the road for us now. I stand in great danger of seeming to tell you that your whole belief structure is not only worthless but positively harmful! You therefore, I hope, can see my trepidation on entering this thread. Due in some large part to me knowing that the things “I” am often most certain about are the things “I” have often got most wrong. This is not a fear of me being wrong ( I would not be here if I were not wanting to hear your thoughts) but a fear of being to erm harsh? maybe.
And I can just as easily argue that some forms of Chirstianity and some fairly universal Christian ideas are equally harmful to individuals and the world. There are forms of Christianity which are horribly repressive. There are forms of Christianity which are blithly intolerant and fully capable of directing their bile with violence. Fortunately, both of these cases are exceptions to the majority of Christianity which is fairly benign.
More harmful in a global sense, however, is the idea that there is only one God (which is not bad in itself) and that Christianity is the only religion through which that one God has spoken. When there are competing monotheisms whose fundamentalists believe that every other monotheism is irreconcilably and fundamentally wrong, then you get the kind of international conflicts that are happening today. Look, no matter how much you believe that there is one God and you have the only Message from that God, the people on the other side are simply not going to wake up one day and agree with you. The only global solution is toleration not conversion.
And a significant number of Neo-Pagans would say that there is one Goddess at the Kore. We just think think She has never stopped speaking. She even speaks through Christians, and Moslems, and Jews.
quote:
In short I consider the worship of any other gods to be the worship of false idols. This opinion is not based (solely) on scripture but on my own life experience and my observations of others around me Christian (yes Christians fall away), pagans and type of person in between. I still contend that the inherent propensity to worship anything but God (it is just our pride) coupled with the seemingly pagan attitude of finding ones own path as well as the ever present human conditions of self delusion and self righteousness leads me to believe still that paganism is inherently dangerous.
I am not sure when all is said and done that we can worship anything but the Goddess. The very act of turning our attention to the Sacred reaches towards that Oneness. You speak of the dangers of self-delusion. I could speak of the dangers of group delusion and corporate pressures to conformity. But these are not the Goddess. She abides. She waits while we grow towards Her as individuals and She waits as we grow towards Her as groups of worshipers. Yes, there are alluring forces that will sidetrack people and groups, and things will go out of balance. But neither the Bible nor Christianity tips that balance one way or the other.
We are the Body of Christ. All of us. All people. But we cannot justly assert that fact without being aware that some do not know and do not need to know Him through the words and traditions of Christianity.
quote:
Firstly, I know many heroin addicts who are worshipping the divine as they understand it. I consider the worship of some of the pagans gods to be as wicked.
Now, this statement, on the other hand, is an outright slur. Do you really personally know that many heroin addicts and are able to make broad conclusions about their religious convictions? (It could be your job: I really don't know for sure.) In any case, the fact that there is one group of people performing harmful activities (blowing up abortion clinics, hijacking jets and piloting them into skyscrappers) is no basis for condemning the religious beliefs of those who share the beliefs with the miscreants let alone condemning everyone who doesn't share the same beliefs as you which is what you are doing here. You are perfectly welcome to believe what you want about the worship of "some pagan gods" (and I have tried to be a patient as possible with you) but your logic in this latest post is execrable and your implication that Neo-Pagans are somehow like heroin addicts is offensive.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Wow. I've been away since last week (graduating wth an MPhil and helping in the marrying off of my sister-in-law - and yes, both events went off without a hitch), and it's nice to see that after various diversions that this thread has gone back on track.
Alcuin hasn't been back, I see. Judging on previous form, he'll poke his head over the parapet again in about three to six months' time, spout the same stuff, say "churchianity" enough times to get a warning from the hosts, and then vanish until the coast's clear. I know I said I wasn't going to pull rank on this thread, but... Alcuin, if you're reading this - bear in mind that if you come back with the same crap again the hosts and admins Will Not Be Happy.
*sigh*
Anyway, as I said. Back on topic.
In all the confusion, I saw that some previous points had not been fully discussed. So, once again:
quote:
Posted by Mertseger: Define worship, please. As far as I can tell, both you and ChastMastr are using the word as if it were defined as that religious activity which only should be reserved for God alone, which seems a little tautalogical. You both must have a defintion that is more than that.
But why is defining worship as the religious activity due only to God tautologous?
I honestly don't se your reasoning here. Please explain.
On to more recent questions:
quote:
posted by Mertseger: quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
“I am the Lord your God: you shall have no other gods but me.”
This is, AFAIK, a legitimate interpretation but not a legitimate translation.
Nope. It's a legitimate translation as well, well within the spectrum of what the Hebrew could mean.
quote:
Most English translations have Exodus 20:3 and Deuteronomy 5:7 as "You shall have no other gods before me." And, clearly, there are other perfectly legitimate interpretations of that translation.
But do these legitimate interpretations contradict Pyx_e's point? I don't think they do.
quote:
Posted by Mertseger: Okay, so if we set up a test to measure the happiness of participants of various religions after a lifetime of practice, you'll accept the results if the some of the ones who did not particularly "obey" the Christian version of the one God were the happiest? Of course not. In the Christian paradigm to which you apparently subscribe any suffering to obey the Lord merits reward in heaven, and, therefore, earthly happiness is not an indicator of salvation. Thus, there is no test that can be performed to validate your hypothesis since the results can only be assessed in the hereafter.
I have to say that I really must agree with this.
quote:
Also posted by Mertseger: I am not convinced, however, that some forms of Christianity are not without their own dangers to some their individual adherents. (depressing example) Nor, am I convinced that worshipping any other God necessarily leads to harm.
Again, I'm forced to agree, to an extent. I guess religion's what you do with it. And yes, as we've said before, there are insanely harmful groups in many religions - yes, even paganism (and you've got to bear in mind that apart from my acquaintance, you, Asdara and Nightwind are - to my relief and delight - the first examples of pagans I have discussed with who are not hateful history-denying loons. If my previous experience was all I had to go on, I'd have said that paganism was intensely harmful) they aren't the religion - they're examples of twisted approaches to said religion.
quote:
More harmful in a global sense, however, is the idea that there is only one God (which is not bad in itself)...
But it is central to the Christian faith.
quote:
Look, no matter how much you believe that there is one God and you have the only Message from that God, the people on the other side are simply not going to wake up one day and agree with you. The only global solution is toleration not conversion.
And, of course, toleration does not mean agreement. You can tolerate someone perfectly well while still considering them to be wrong. It's how you express that disagreement.
Take, for example, this thread. Toleration is in evidence, but that doesn't mean we have to put reasoned argument out the window.
quote:
And a significant number of Neo-Pagans would say that there is one Goddess at the Kore. We just think think She has never stopped speaking. She even speaks through Christians, and Moslems, and Jews.
Why is this any less patronising than the monotheistic attitude you've mentioned already?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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