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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Jensens Jensens everywhere!
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
For those who don't know already, the Archbishop of Sydney has appointed his brother, the Bible Thumping hard-liner - Phillip Jensen - to be Dean of Sydney. This means he is the boss of St Andrew's Cathedral, complete with world-class choir, organ and beautiful gothic architecture. The link below is to his inaugural sermon. I invite comments, particularly about his belief that the "secular" world is inhibiting the gospel.
http://www.anglicanmedia.com.au/index.php/article/articleview/662/1/12/
[ 03. September 2003, 21:51: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
I thought some bits of the sermon were excellent: his exhortation to proclaim the Gospel particularly (mind you, possibly Mr Dean and I emphasise different things when we say 'Gospel').
But some bits were fairly dodgy. Namely, criticism of secularists who want to turn secular education into secularist education. The Church only has the authority to rebuke those inside the Church. What of it that secularists want to turn secular education 'secularist'? It's up to the Church to establish Christian schools to counteract this - not to put pressure on the government schools to teach Christianity (creationism etc). What of "This city still has its dark side of immorality and decadence; of rebellion against God issuing in antisocial behaviour - at all levels of society"? Judgement has been given to the Church for those inside the Church. All the Church can hope for is to be salt and light to the rest of the world.
Especially I think it shouldn't seek to impose itself on secular society by taking advantage of the mechanisms of secular society. When Satan tempted Jesus by showing him the kingdoms of the world and offering them to him, this was a real temptation. They were his to offer. The kingdom of this world and the mechanisms of secular society belong to Satan. I remain unconvinced that it is other than hypocrisy for people like the Dean to use them. (Possibly an argument can be made from St Paul being a Jew to the Jews and a gentile to the gentiles - but that is a weak one imo, he didn't seek to modify society's behaviour by modifying the society's institutions, his ministry was at a personal level). Dean Jensen is calling for prayer, but I would be very surprised if Sydney Diocese only prays and doesn't try to make use of the media and the processes of government to push its views.
We are the Church in adversity, he should suck it up and deal.
Regarding inclusivity and exclusivity. It's not up to us to say who's in and who's out. We should welcome all and let God sort them out. Jesus didn't say 'let the children come to me - but first make them repent'. People come, as they are - are welcomed in love. Are shown the Gospel. That's it. It's up to the Holy Spirit to convict them.
But this did make me cross: quote:
This pulpit - which I have been invited to occupy - stands in the centre of this great city and this great diocese.
It is a privileged opportunity for me to commence this work with you tonight.
But it is a humbling privilege - for no one is worthy or sufficient for the task. For the task is more than speaking - it is speaking the word of God. The task is not just intellectual, moral or physical - it is profoundly spiritual.
No, the task is more than this! We are a Church of the Word and of the Sacrament. The Anglican Church and the Holy Spirit ordain people for more than occupying a pulpit! When Mr Dean was ordained he vowed to preach the Gospel and faithfully minister the sacraments. (Or maybe he didn't? Perhaps Sydney have also dispensed with the Anglican formularies regarding ordination?)
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Phew, it makes me even more glad to have middle-of-the-road Anglican Bishops in England!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
....and Deans, etc......
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
*nods*
I have it on good authority that the new Mr Dean, in his enthusiasm to "preach the Word of God" (yes folks, bow down and worship the WORD of God, the HOLY BIBLE - bloody hell I wish people who use that phrase would stick it where the sun don't shine and be done with it), is officially doing away with the Cathedral Choir.
The Choir will now be allowed to sing only the Psalm and an anthem - all anthems to be vetted by the Dean, to ensure that they are biblically and doctrinally sound... Can't have any meditational stuff now, can we.
Once a month the Choir is to be replaced by the St Mathias' Singers, who will lead the worship with guitars and tambourines and so on.
The "traditional" service will now be at 8am. 10:30am will become a family service.
And guess where the congregants will be coming from? St Mathias' Paddington, of course.
I am SO glad I am no longer at the Cathedral.
And the Jensens can thank God (or the WOrd of God, or whatever they worship) that it is Lent - yes folks, that's a season of the liturgical year, a lead up to the festival when we celebrate our salvation, Easter. Because if it weren't for the fact that it is Lent, and for the fact that I have given up saying nasty things about the Diocese of Sydney for Lent, then I would be calling curses on their heads, and wishing they could die horrible slow and painful deaths. In secret so they can't be martyrs.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
(Or maybe he didn't? Perhaps Sydney have also dispensed with the Anglican formularies regarding ordination?)
Yes, Coot, but you see, Word is placed before Sacrament, therefore, Word is more important than Sacrament, and Sacrament can be dispensed with.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
About the sort of level one would expect, really.
Remember that the vast bulk of Sydneysiders will regard them with contempt.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Your experience in Sydney all sounds horribly familiar - the same has been happening in England, but fortunately not in cathedrals, but in ordinary parish churches up and down the land. Sympathies.......
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Leaving aside the issue of cathedral worship I can't help thinking how convenient it is that the new dean is the bishop's brother..... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
I like what Coot said about exclusivity vs. inclusivity. The church should exist as a non-judgmental welcome to all who will come, without imposing some sort of examination to determine whether they are worthy to enter. Judgment is the Lord's, not our own.
I was offended by the statement that other paths to God are all "deceits of Satan." I suppose that a case could be made for it, but this kind of proclamation from a cathedral dean, to whom I assume it is given to represent Christianity to the greater community, sounds very much like an aspiration to be part of a group that becomes smaller and smaller as it is more determined to keep people out, rather than invite them in to see what the church might have to offer in their lives.
On another note, did anyone else find the interminable comments of affection for Sydney a little fatuous? I perhaps have no right to say anything, but if it were about my city I would think it a bit insincere to wax quite so ecstatic about a place which is later revealed as full of those who would destroy the church and its mission.
Sorry if I seem to be shooting from the hip here, it might be that those of us truly from Oz are more entitled to comment.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
rather than invite them in to see what the church might have to offer in their lives.
Ah, but Zeke, it's not "what the church can offer them in their lives" but "are they saved?"
Nothing matters more than whether those who come to the Cathedral are "saved" - and as you know, there is no other purpose in being Christian, other than to "save souls" (also known as bums-on-pews syndrome)...
Yes Chorister, it is a process of change that is happening in parishes, and has been happening for the last 40 years. But the Cathedrals are in a different category. It's not just a "soul-saving" centre, as the new Dean seems to be claiming, but is also a civic and cultural centre... *sigh* This is what happens when you have such a terribly narrow point of view. *sigh*
I mean, this is a Cathedral, not some wanky parish church.
Anyway, Jensen's agenda will fail at the Cathedral. Because unlike a parish, the current attendees of the Cathedral don't live anywhere near it, coming in from the suburbs. Those who live in the actual parish boundaries of the Cathedral live in high-rise appartments and are predominantly of Asian descent... Good luck mate.
The biggest tragedy for me in this is: people flocked to the Cathedral *because* of the developments in their local parishes. For years it was the "last" bastion of traditional BCP Evangelicalism. Where are those people going to go now? What about their spiritual well-being? It strikes me as rather arrogant to say, "Ok, you can still come here - but we're shifting the old-fart stuff to 8am." There is actually quite a fellowship of people (many of them single elderly folks) who go to lunch in the city after service on Sunday morning. What will they do?
But then. I suppose there really is only ONE way to "do" church, isn't there, in spite of what they say. *sigh*
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
I think Zeke has hit the nail in the head there about a group that gets smaller and smaller, the more people they keep out.
Take, for instance, the Diocesan Mission "To have ten percent of Sydneysiders in Bible-Based churches by 2010". Now, one could read that as, "To have 90% of all Sydneysiders damned to hell for all eternity by 2010". I thought the church existed for all people, not merely its bible-based attenders?
The Jensen brothers seem so focussed on getting people saved by the blood of the lamb, they have have forgotten that the incarnation is at least as important as the atonement. Or, to put it differently, that people and their needs are at least as important as dogma.
By the way, Nunc, seen any new drag queens lately? Not around St Andrew's I'll bet!
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Not if you're a Reformed Calvinist, it isn't
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
Merceymike, They are fond of saying "there's more than one way to do church", when in reality as Reformed Calvinists, they only practice ONE way of doing and being church...
quote:
By the way, Nunc, seen any new drag queens lately? Not around St Andrew's I'll bet!
Only Mogadona the MTV Dragqueen - we had an interesting session with "her" 2 weeks ago at a shipmeet in Paddington... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
quote:
Only Mogadona the MTV Dragqueen - we had an interesting session with "her" 2 weeks ago at a shipmeet in Paddington...
Nunc, that was my oh so subtle way of letting you know i'm online. Mid's mate Chris. Hi there.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
Checking out the cathedral website to see what sort of music they were (or weren't) doing I came up with the list for next Sunday (the 16th)
quote:
10.30am Holy Communion - Choral
Setting: Smith (Kyrie) Schubert (Sanctus)
Introit: Bourgeois Bread of the world in mercy broken
Psalm: 116:11-18
Motet: Byrd Bow thine ear
So what I want to know is why the bread of the bourgeoisie mentioned? Glorying in the fact that the Anglicans of Sydney are a a middle class phenomenon? Sounds a little too political for evangelicals.....
Raspberry Rabbit
Postmaster
Ulan Bator, Mongolia
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zeke:
I was offended by the statement that other paths to God are all "deceits of Satan." I suppose that a case could be made for it,
Yes indeed, but it is a really crap case
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Those who live in the actual parish boundaries of the Cathedral live in high-rise appartments and are predominantly of Asian descent... Good luck mate.
Given that the Anglican communion is extremely strong in Singapore with a very Jensen like approach, there is no reason to assume that the cathedral won't reach its parish.
In general I am unimpressed with this thread - we are supposed to be in PURGATORY guys - let's attempt a rational discussion of Jensen approach, rather than indulge in evangelical bashing - which is showing at least as much judgementalism as the comments of the Dean that you are sulking about.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Luke
Soli Deo Gloria
# 306
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zeke:
I like what Coot said about exclusivity vs. inclusivity. The church should exist as a non-judgmental welcome to all who will come, without imposing some sort of examination to determine whether they are worthy to enter. Judgment is the Lord's, not our own.
I was offended by the statement that other paths to God are all "deceits of Satan." I suppose that a case could be made for it, but this kind of proclamation from a cathedral dean, to whom I assume it is given to represent Christianity to the greater community, sounds very much like an aspiration to be part of a group that becomes smaller and smaller as it is more determined to keep people out, rather than invite them in to see what the church might have to offer in their lives.
Sorry if I seem to be shooting from the hip here, it might be that those of us truly from Oz are more entitled to comment.
I wanted to respond directly because I'm from Australia, although I live in a different city (Hobart) to Phillip Jensen. I visited the church he was at before being made dean(St Matthias) and felt welcomed and not at all excluded.
Maybe Jensen was a little dramatic and heavy handed in his sermon but his basic point of exclusivity is valid. Its valid because at the end of the day you're either for God or against God. I don't think Jensen cares who you are or where you're from or what you've done, as long as you are a Christian. I don't think he cares where you go to church as long as you have faith in Jesus. Christanity is exclusive because Jesus says he's the only way to God. Maybe Jensen is proclaiming that in an awkward fashion but at least he is determined that people become Christians!
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Emily's Voice
Posts: 822 | From: Australia | Registered: May 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Luke, kindly remember that the Jensen Bros do not have a mortgage on Christianity.
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
quote:
Only Mogadona the MTV Dragqueen - we had an interesting session with "her" 2 weeks ago at a shipmeet in Paddington...
Nunc, that was my oh so subtle way of letting you know i'm online. Mid's mate Chris. Hi there.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) *stupid Nunc*
Hi Chris, glad you signed up at last man!
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
I don't think he cares where you go to church as long as you have faith in Jesus.
Correction. As long as you are "bible-believing". And by that definition, according to the Jensens, all those other Anglicans who are not Evangelical (Anglo-Catholics, Liberals, others who don't think like the Jensens) are excluded.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Not to mention the "other" (shudder)denominations!
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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The Black Labrador
Shipmate
# 3098
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Posted
Questions for Australian shipmates:
1. roughly what percentage of a) clergy and b) Anglicans in this diocese are conservative evangelicals?
2. has the above changed as a result of the Jensens, and if so how?
3. are more or less people attending the cathedral as a result of the service changes referred to?
Posts: 629 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
I get so annoyed when I hear "bible-believing" used to mean "thinking exactly the same way as we do about everything." How dare they assume that, because we may interpret the Bible differently, we just don't believe it?
Or perhaps by "bible-believing" they mean "believing that every single word (presumably in the King James version)was whispered directly into the author's ear by God Himself."
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
But it seems that just about everyone who isn't conservative evangelical in that diocese doesn't feel welcome.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Luke
Soli Deo Gloria
# 306
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Luke, kindly remember that the Jensen Bros do not have a mortgage on Christianity.
m
I'm sorry if I offended you or anybody else in my defence of what Jensen said. I think honest conversation with all peoples, all denominations is important. Although Jensen may not be as holistic as I personally think is biblical, the points he raises deserve discussion.
Operation World by Patrick Johnstone and Jason Mandryk, while providing no exact figures write on page 84 that "Evangelicals are strong in the Sydney Anglican diocese and a growing minority in the Melbourne diocese (30%)."
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Emily's Voice
Posts: 822 | From: Australia | Registered: May 2001
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Grizabella
Shipmate
# 4099
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Posted
We should indeed pray that Mr Jensen would be able to preach the mystery of the Gospel boldly and fearlessly as he requests, but let us also pray that he speak the truth in love, an essential element in all Christian ministry and one not specifically mentioned in his initial sermon at St. Andrew's.
And following on from the concerns raised by others, let us also pray that Mr Jensen will give consideration to the many needs of his congregation at St. Andrew's, as well as the needs of the people of Sydney. There is no one right way to worship God and by his implementation of immediate changes to the services and worship traditionally practiced at St. Andrew's (without firstly consulting the church body), he has left many of that church community bewildered and upset. Change is not by itself a bad thing, but when it occurs within a church, it does need to be undertaken in consultation with the church, its people!
The below quote is from his sermon published on the anglican media link at the beginning of this thread:
"But Christ is not the Lord of the Anglo-Saxons, nor the Lord of the Anglicans, but the Lord of all people. This Cathedral cannot be Christian and for Anglo-Saxon stock only. It must be for all people - rich, poor, young, old, professors, illiterate, for Greeks and Jews, for Chinese and for Lebanese, for Muslims, Buddhists, New Age and Atheist."
The Cathedral must indeed be for all people - which is precisely why consultation must occur as to how the Cathedral can meet the needs of its existing and future parishioners.
No one person has a monopoly on wisdom and truth!
Posts: 104 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
Once a month the Choir is to be replaced by the St Mathias' Singers, who will lead the worship with guitars and tambourines and so on.
Dear Nunc,
If you said the above to wind us up, them I am afraid that I am going to have to throttle you.
If it is true, then I feel that it is my duty to throttle someone else... whose surname starts with "J".
Yours,
Anglirasc.
Yesterday was just awful at the Cathedral. It was easily the most bland service I have ever attended there.
After the service, there were at least three people in tears over the changes that he has decreed through Barry Marsh. I have often seen people crying when a minister leaves a church. I have never before seen people crying when a new minister starts.
How a Christian minister can come in and start to rule by fiat without even trying to see how the existing ministries operate is completely beyond me. It appears ungodly and even - dare I say it - unbiblical.
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Sorry to hear that AngRascal. Very sad indeed.
Another article:No sacred cows...
Luke, I'm glad you felt welcome, but I know many people who have felt very excluded when visiting St Matthias or other such churches. As Nunc said, they often have a very narrow view. One group even went as far to call my friend "deranged" and "crazy" for studying at a theological college other than Moore.
I wish Mr Jensen and all leaders well. The main issue I have is the fan-club mentality that seems to be based around them and the fact they can do no wrong. Didn't St Paul mention something about following Paul, following Apollos, etc... being dangerous??? I see a similar mentality often at work which is hard to get over.
I do pray, as Grizabella said, that it will be a place for all people.
Admiral.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
For the time being... *sigh*
quote:
Questions for Australian shipmates:
1. roughly what percentage of a) clergy and b) Anglicans in this diocese are conservative evangelicals?
2. has the above changed as a result of the Jensens, and if so how?
3. are more or less people attending the cathedral as a result of the service changes referred to?
1. There are about 215 parishes in SYdney. 15 of these are NOT Evangelical. A further 15 might be middle of the road. But this number is slowly decreasing. The rest are all quite rampantly Jensenite.
I would say there are more clergy than laypeople who are Jensenite. Afterall, you've got to play politics in the church.
2. Yes, it is changing on a year by year basis. Slowly parishes are being taken over by men with Jensenite beliefs: the elderly incumbant retires and a new chap is put in place. And because of the policy the Diocese now has of closed borders, whereby they will only appoint Moore College trained MEN to parishes, there really isn't much variety or choice, nor is there much consideration for the tradition of the parish. It is an out and out determination to weed out anything other than Conservative Evangelicalism. And is essentially un-Anglican in its approach.
3. This remains to be seen. I suspect he will import his cronies from St Mathias. So far he has blatantly and uncaringly walked all over the existing congregation. Proving the addage about Sydney Evangelicals not having a pastoral link in their theological system. So yes, eventually the congregation *might* grow. But at the expense of precious souls who are already there? Didn't Jesus specifically command Peter to "feed my sheep"? He didn't say, "force them to swallow the leftovers and bones from your mutton-feasts"...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Black Labrador
Shipmate
# 3098
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
1. There are about 215 parishes in SYdney. 15 of these are NOT Evangelical. A further 15 might be middle of the road. But this number is slowly decreasing. The rest are all quite rampantly Jensenite.
I would say there are more clergy than laypeople who are Jensenite. Afterall, you've got to play politics in the church.
2. Yes, it is changing on a year by year basis. Slowly parishes are being taken over by men with Jensenite beliefs: the elderly incumbant retires and a new chap is put in place. And because of the policy the Diocese now has of closed borders, whereby they will only appoint Moore College trained MEN to parishes, there really isn't much variety or choice, nor is there much consideration for the tradition of the parish. It is an out and out determination to weed out anything other than Conservative Evangelicalism. And is essentially un-Anglican in its approach.
3. This remains to be seen. I suspect he will import his cronies from St Mathias. So far he has blatantly and uncaringly walked all over the existing congregation. Proving the addage about Sydney Evangelicals not having a pastoral link in their theological system. So yes, eventually the congregation *might* grow. But at the expense of precious souls who are already there? Didn't Jesus specifically command Peter to "feed my sheep"? He didn't say, "force them to swallow the leftovers and bones from your mutton-feasts"...
These statistics are amazing - what is happening to church attendance in these parishes? Liberals and Anglo-catholics are presumably leaving, Is this matched by growth via conversion/transfer from non-Anglican conservative churches? Is church attendance overall rising or falling?
What's happening in the rest of Australia - is Sydney the only diocese where this kind of thing is happening?
Posts: 629 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2002
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
These statistics are amazing - what is happening to church attendance in these parishes? Liberals and Anglo-catholics are presumably leaving, Is this matched by growth via conversion/transfer from non-Anglican conservative churches? Is church attendance overall rising or falling?
Liberals and A-Cs are not necessarily leaving. The elderly who are not terribly mobile I suppose don't go to church anymore, but alot of us travel to the surviving Liberal/Catholic parishes. My parish is very strong. Just because we are few doesn't mean we aren't strong!
I can't speak for overall statistics. I am pretty sure there is a large back door, and there is an increasing number of disillusioned or hurt people coming out of the Sydney Evangelical experience.
quote:
What's happening in the rest of Australia - is Sydney the only diocese where this kind of thing is happening?
Yes. To my knowledge.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luke:
Operation World by Patrick Johnstone and Jason Mandryk, while providing no exact figures write on page 84 that "Evangelicals are strong in the Sydney Anglican diocese and a growing minority in the Melbourne diocese (30%)."
A friend who lived in Melbourne and studied at Ridley (evangelical woman priest! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ) told me that the Church in Melbourne has always had 2 wings. Catholic and Evangelical. And as we all know, it takes 2 wings to fly. The Evangelical tradition has always been strong in Melbourne. I expect this 'growing minority' of 30% are the 'only true' Anglican Evangelicals, ie. the Moore College variety who have been infiltrating dioceses in Australia with their nasty church plants.
Anyone know what has become of Ridley? It used to be supportive of women's ordination to the priesthood and was the sensible Anglican Evangelical Theological College of choice.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Jensen's sermon does indeed contain some things that need saying (though perhaps not in the way he says them!), but as with a lot of things people like him say, you get the feeling he is not coming clean. For example, the preachers he wants us to pray for are always to be men and when he talks of the death of Christ as the basis of salvation, it's a safe bet that he means "so long as you interpret that death exactly the way I do".
Here in England, Reform behave in exactly this way....
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
So I'm still trying to figure out what the dean is wearing here I see a blue shirt, a tie and some sort of academic hood? Geneva gown?
If he's that dead against wearing vestments why is he wearing the wrong vestments. Why not wear a suit and tie and leave it at that?
Raspberry Rabbit
Postmaster
Ulan Bator, Mongolia
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
I believe he is wearing an academic gown. Which is not even appropriate, as he does have a Doctorate.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
quote:
Anyone know what has become of Ridley? It used to be supportive of women's ordination to the priesthood and was the sensible Anglican Evangelical Theological College of choice.
To the best of my knowledge, the principal of Ridley is a Jensenist admirer, who is, nonetheless supportive of women's ordination. Ridley is becoming more evangelical, but still maintains a reasonably informed, diverse, tolerant academic program. There used to be a program at Ridley in which students were required to do at least one placement in a church not of their own tradition. A good thing!
IN THE INTERESTS OF ENCOURAGING THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSION...
Anybody have any comments re:the following thought:
The Reformation brought with it a counter-Reformation, which was extreme, passionate, politically well organised and, at times, suggested it had a monopoly on truth. As the church globally is in a phase of New Reformation (according to many) does the Anglican Diocese of Sydney represent the vanguard of the New Counter-Reformation? If so, what role do Liberals and Anglo Catholics have to play in both these phenomena? And are we doing a good job? Are we encouraging Christian unrest or merely a retreating ghetto mentality?
Hmmmmm
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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magnum mysterium
Shipmate
# 3418
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Phew, it makes me even more glad to have middle-of-the-road Anglican Bishops in England!
I suppose extremism does have some advantages, like ridding the diocese of insipidity. It seems to me that in the lowest of low dioceses like Sydney (or Melbourne), there comes an extremely catholic reaction against this. In Canberra we are very MOTR, which is frustrating because, as a result, there is no great bastion of anglocatholicism around. Only poor imitations of it.
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Fungus
Shipmate
# 4243
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
1. There are about 215 parishes in SYdney. 15 of these are NOT Evangelical. A further 15 might be middle of the road. But this number is slowly decreasing. The rest are all quite rampantly Jensenite.
There is actually about 270 parishes in Sydney. I don't have any hard numbers on non-evangelical parishes but 15 sounds about right. I would have thought that there were more than 15 middle of the road parishes, however.
The rest, of course, are evangelical, not Jensenite.
quote:
2. Yes, it is changing on a year by year basis. Slowly parishes are being taken over by men with Jensenite beliefs: the elderly incumbant retires and a new chap is put in place.
The number of evangelical parishes have been growing for years, long before Peter Jensen became Archbishop. This has come partly through the planting of new parishes as new suburbs develop and partly through retirements and the like.
quote:
And because of the policy the Diocese now has of closed borders, whereby they will only appoint Moore College trained MEN to parishes, there really isn't much variety or choice, nor is there much consideration for the tradition of the parish.
For the benefit of the non-Sydney readers, I should point out that clergy aren't appointed to regular parishes by mere decree of the Archbishop. Instead a panel of 10 provides one or two names for the Archbishop's consideration. Five people on that panel come from the parish (the others being the regional archdeacon and four members of Synod) so there is plenty of opportunity for the consideration of the parish's tradition.
Not ever having been involved in the process of finding a new Rector, I'm not aware of the policy you describe but there has certainly been men from outside the diocese appointed to parishes over the last few years.
In addition, there has been record numbers are Moore College in recent years, and a record number of them have been putting themselves up to be Sydney clergy. Which such large numbers of people that we've trained ourselves available, why shouldn't they be placed into Sydney parishes?
On the question of numbers, Sydney, unlike almost all of the rest of the Anglican church in Australia, has grown over the last decade. However, it hasn't grown at the same rate as population growth which is why there is the mission: to kick us into action!
Posts: 137 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Mar 2003
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Hi Chris! Glad you signed up.
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
IN THE INTERESTS OF ENCOURAGING THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSION...
Anybody have any comments re:the following thought:
The Reformation brought with it a counter-Reformation, which was extreme, passionate, politically well organised and, at times, suggested it had a monopoly on truth. As the church globally is in a phase of New Reformation (according to many) does the Anglican Diocese of Sydney represent the vanguard of the New Counter-Reformation? If so, what role do Liberals and Anglo Catholics have to play in both these phenomena? And are we doing a good job? Are we encouraging Christian unrest or merely a retreating ghetto mentality?
Hmmmmm[/QB]
Interesting questions, perhaps which I with my little brain am not qualified to fully comment on, but I'll give it a go.
I think the Sydney Diocese would see itself as the "vanguard of the New Counter-Reformation", perhaps not in those words though. Most Sydney evangelicals I know who are very active would see themselves as helping in to usher in a new period of godly living. I have no truck with the aims, but sometimes the methods may be a bit worrying.
In terms of roles for Anglo Catholics and Liberals, I am not sure. I think the ghetto mentality is very easy to fall into and when a particular style of evangelicalism is in ascendency; those with other views can have the mentality to fight fight fight. It is hard to get another voice in, with the media so hung up on the in-fighting and often content to character assassinate various Jensen - even putting words and beliefs in their mouths that they have not said.
I have invited evangelical friends of mine to services at my "moderately High" church - they have come, and often dismissed it as "just like Catholicism" and tell me they fear I am falling into idolatory and Mariolatory. What more can I do? I tried to explain as best I could (being new to High Church), but it fell on fairly deaf ears. It is easier to say nothing and let sleeping dogs lie, sometimes. Most people I now have fairly in-depth conversations with a fairly traditional and "catholic" - am I retreating to my ghetto? Probably.
Not sure I answered well. Hope it provides some food for thought, though.
Admiral.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
HI Fungus and a hearty welcome to the Ship!
quote:
Originally posted by Fungus:
There is actually about 270 parishes in Sydney. I don't have any hard numbers on non-evangelical parishes but 15 sounds about right. I would have thought that there were more than 15 middle of the road parishes, however.
The rest, of course, are evangelical, not Jensenite.
From my experience, middle-of-the-road parishes are becoming increasingly rare: I went on a three month hunt and found the only such services (in my area - South West) were on at 7am and as boring as they could possibly be - the priest rushing through them as fast as he could. And I got tired of being told to come to the "Hip 'n Happenin'" Youth Service at night everywhere I went.
quote:
Not ever having been involved in the process of finding a new Rector, I'm not aware of the policy you describe but there has certainly been men from outside the diocese appointed to parishes over the last few years.
Our current incumbent came from Goulburn/Canberra [I think! ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif) ], so it does happen.
Admiral.
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Not ever having been involved in the process of finding a new Rector, I'm not aware of the policy you describe but there has certainly been men from outside the diocese appointed to parishes over the last few years.
Yes. Before the appointment of Peter Jensen as Archbishop.
He has categorically stated that men without a Moore College background will not be appointed to parishes in Sydney.
And the process you describe, while it is correct, is no guarentee. The Archbishop has ultimate veto, and if the parish selectors and Diocesan selectors are unable to find a candidate on whom they agree, the appointment falls to the Archbishop. I watched the agonising process when Christ Church St Laurence tried to find a new rector recently, and my parish is very concerned because our priest retires in June, and there just isn't anyone (in Sydney) to appoint who is sympathetic to our parish tradition. It would be quite within diocesan rights to veto any candidate our parish selectors put before them, on the basis of "not being Moore College trained". If this happens, and we all fail to find someone, the Archbishop will appoint someone of his own choosing. And he has let it be known that he "wants to bring [my parish] to heel." It would not surprise me if the process is rigged so this will happen.
quote:
There is actually about 270 parishes in Sydney. I don't have any hard numbers on non-evangelical parishes but 15 sounds about right. I would have thought that there were more than 15 middle of the road parishes, however.
The rest, of course, are evangelical, not Jensenite.
Thanks for updating my figures.
Evangelical, yes. But large swathes of the suburbs are very much Jensen supporting.
Fungus, the Jensens have been subtly guiding the diocese for years. The fact they are now Archbishop, Dean, and Chaplain at the Cathedral School is the end of their plans. Moore College trained chaps over the past ten years (a whole generation of clergy) have all been versed in the belief system of the Jensens (because of the steady stream from St Mathias' Centennial Park, through Moore, of which Peter was principal). They are now in their own parishes, youth work, assistant ministry, etc.
That to me is pretty tantamount to be "Jensenite".
"Evangelical" to me implies someone who has evangelical views, but is happy with the Anglican church as it is, and has tolerant views of other Anglicans of differing churchmanships. This on the whole does not fit the Sydney Diocese.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
"Evangelical" to me implies someone who has evangelical views, but is happy with the Anglican church as it is, and has tolerant views of other Anglicans of differing churchmanships. This on the whole does not fit the Sydney Diocese.
... in the sense that it is Evangelical - without any further qualification. Yes the Sydney Diocese is Evangelicals, but it's type of Evangelicalism does not fit that held in other dioceses around Australia or the world.
I hope that didn't cause any confusion, and I am sorry if it did. I should ahve been clearer.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
Nunc,
I am going to quote an educational icon:
Arnold Schwarzenegger in Kindergarten Cop.
"Stop Whining"
Bear in mind that I said that "in love".
My question is, how do we stop whining and start solving? What is it going to take for the minorities, the radicals, the free thinkers, the progressives, the traditionalists, the catholics, the liberationists, the liberals,the experimentals, the intellectuals, the marginalised, the silent masses and the discontented to move forward? Not just in Sydney, but around the world. Alternately, of course, we could just let the reformation die, and let the church die with it. Lets face it, ultra-fundamentalist dogma is not the way forward, and church historians of the future will laugh at the Jensens and their ilk, viewing them as bizarre historical blip.
OR...they will BE the Jensens and their ilk.
To quote another educational icon (Captain Planet)
"The Power is Yours!"
(Ok, a little excited, but you get my drift.)
Oh, and by the way, would the rectory at St Mary's be comfortable for, say, a young, single, somewhat chubby recently ordained person?
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
To Nunc and her fellow Sydneysiders:
AAAUUUGGHHH!!
You've been added to my Lenten prayers.
If my diocese were highjacked by the Jensens, I would find my way to Rome. Where else can a Catholic Christian turn?
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
You could always go Orthodox.....
cheers,
m (shameless Roman)
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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magnum mysterium
Shipmate
# 3418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
Oh, and by the way, would the rectory at St Mary's be comfortable for, say, a young, single, somewhat chubby recently ordained person?
Sydney would never let a single person in, heaven forbid.
Posts: 3095 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I might be naive, but here in the UK many Anglican (and other) evangelicals are becoming more open to sacramental influences. Ok, so some of it is pop faux-Celtic stuff but nevertheless ...
Are there no elements of this tendency in Sydney or Oz as a whole?
Gamaliel
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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