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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Jensens Jensens everywhere!
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Originally posted by jugular:
quote:
My question is, how do we stop whining and start solving? What is it going to take for the minorities, the radicals, the free thinkers, the progressives, the traditionalists, the catholics, the liberationists, the liberals,the experimentals, the intellectuals, the marginalised, the silent masses and the discontented to move forward? Not just in Sydney, but around the world. Alternately, of course, we could just let the reformation die, and let the church die with it. Lets face it, ultra-fundamentalist dogma is not the way forward, and church historians of the future will laugh at the Jensens and their ilk, viewing them as bizarre historical blip.
OR...they will BE the Jensens and their ilk.
Quite possibly: fundamentalism does seem popular at this time in history for some reason. Perhaps it is the "future". :shudder:
Regarding the "how do we stop whining and start solving" question, who knows? When it is hard enough to get people to acknowledge you exist and accept your views, what recourse do you have? Run and form a new denomination? Bury your head in the sand and be the last person left to lock the door in your non-evangelical church? None of these seem right or acceptable.
Do we support each other and have our own get-togethers (as evangelicals do - Men's/Women's Katoomba Conventions / City Youth Convention, etc.)? e.g. my priest has a close relationship to the Dean of St Patrick's Parramatta (Catholic for you non-Sydney siders) - he has come and preached at our servies. Or is this retreating away and hoping for the best?
Too many questions...to many problems. I hope somewhere here has some light.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Are there no elements of this tendency in Sydney or Oz as a whole?
Can't speak for Oz, but it is sadly lacking in my experience of Sydney evangelical churches. My church is having a Celtic prayer afternoon this Saturday, but I doubt many mainline Sydneysiders would be leaping at the chance for meditation, contemplation and prayer. Bible studies are the norm.
Admiral.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I might be naive, but here in the UK many Anglican (and other) evangelicals are becoming more open to sacramental influences. Ok, so some of it is pop faux-Celtic stuff but nevertheless ...
Are there no elements of this tendency in Sydney or Oz as a whole?
I suspect you are right on the UK situation... that would be another reason His Grace has recently visited your shores... you are backsliding into popery. Here in Oz I would suggest the tendency has been away from sacramentalism. If I look back at my childhood/early teens (before a long period of atheism) in the WA Diocese of the Northwest (northern country areas of WA), the flavour was both sacramental and evangelical.
Now the Diocese of the Northwest is under the oversight of the barkingest bishop in Australia: Tony Nicholls (if you don't believe me, read a few of his columns in the Anglican Messenger). In 30 years it has gone from BCP evangelical/prayerbook catholic (under the oversight of the godly Howell Witt of blessed memory) to what is widely known as 'Jurassic Park'.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Fungus
Shipmate
# 4243
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
And he has let it be known that he "wants to bring [my parish] to heel."
Not knowing the full conversation, it's hard to know exactly what was meant by the phrase, but from what I know of Peter Jensen I don't think that he would use it to mean that he's going to make the parish Evangelical by force.
Perhaps he's using it to remind the parish of some regulations it might have forgotten, such as the fact that the use of a chasuble has been banned in the diocese for the best part of a century.
quote:
"Evangelical" to me implies someone who has evangelical views, but is happy with the Anglican church as it is, and has tolerant views of other Anglicans of differing churchmanships. This on the whole does not fit the Sydney Diocese.
Even noting your later clarification I'm afraid that this definition has never been historically accurate. Evangelicals have never felt entirely at home in any of the demoninations that they've found themselves. This is partly because their idea of the Church Universal does not require that it be reflected as demoninations on Earth, but also because they have been given a hard time from the denominational hierarchies.
As a result, Evangelicals have been tolerant of other traditions in that they've respected the other's right to hold differing ideas, but they've never supported or encouraged them and they've always tried to make the others come around to their way of thinking.
Posts: 137 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Mar 2003
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anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fungus:
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
And he has let it be known that he "wants to bring [my parish] to heel."
Not knowing the full conversation, it's hard to know exactly what was meant by the phrase, but from what I know of Peter Jensen I don't think that he would use it to mean that he's going to make the parish Evangelical by force.
Yerrrss - maybe. Just like the way that he's not allowing his brother to make the Cathedral another congregation in the St Matthias style by force?
quote:
Perhaps he's using it to remind the parish of some regulations it might have forgotten, such as the fact that the use of a chasuble has been banned in the diocese for the best part of a century.
I know little of Nunc's parish but I do know that they do not use the naughty, naughty chasuble or even the wicked, wicked alb. The closest you will find is a cope, I'm afraid, which seems to not be covered by the dastardly Announcements of Divine Service and Clerical Vestures Ordinance 1949. Not even that scandalous hole of popery, Christ Church St Laurence, dares to allow its ministers to don those Romish garments.
Oh well, good try. You'll have to get 'em on another point! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
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Fungus
Shipmate
# 4243
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
My question is, how do we stop whining and start solving? What is it going to take for the minorities, the radicals, the free thinkers, the progressives, the traditionalists, the catholics, the liberationists, the liberals,the experimentals, the intellectuals, the marginalised, the silent masses and the discontented to move forward?
As Admiral Holder suggested in his post, mutual support is probably the key.
Perhaps there is also something to be learnt from the way Evangelicals operate? For example, Australian readers should grab a book on Australian church history and ask themselves why Sydney has remained Evangelical while other once Evangelical dioceses, such as Melbourne, are no longer. Organisations like the Katoomba Conventions and the Anglican Church League have certainly helped evangelicals, so perhaps an equivalent wide ranging organisation is needed.
In Sydney I know that there is Anglicans Together that tries to act as a counter to the ACL, but I think that it is small in number. If such an organisation can't act as a rallying point in Sydney then perhaps, for all the words of encouragement, the only thing the people listed above have in common is that they're all in the same building on Sunday.
Posts: 137 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
Our national radio broadcasting service had a certain focus in their "Religion Report" this morning.You can read about the Jensen issue here-
ABC- religion report
The reported issues were ummmm strange and worrying, at least in my unlearned, non-Anglican, non- Sydney understanding.
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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magnum mysterium
Shipmate
# 3418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
quote:
Perhaps he's using it to remind the parish of some regulations it might have forgotten, such as the fact that the use of a chasuble has been banned in the diocese for the best part of a century.
I know little of Nunc's parish but I do know that they do not use the naughty, naughty chasuble or even the wicked, wicked alb. The closest you will find is a cope, I'm afraid, which seems to not be covered by the dastardly Announcements of Divine Service and Clerical Vestures Ordinance 1949. Not even that scandalous hole of popery, Christ Church St Laurence, dares to allow its ministers to don those Romish garments.
Oh well, good try. You'll have to get 'em on another point! [/QB]
I thought there were moves in Sydney circles to do away with such regulations as relate to vestments in order to remove the emphasis on what any celebrant wears. This in effect would have a double edged sword - making it equally acceptable to celebrate in street clothes as in a chasuble. Does anyone know about this?
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
I seem to remember something vaguely about it, Magnum Myst. But can't pin it down.
quote:
In Sydney I know that there is Anglicans Together that tries to act as a counter to the ACL, but I think that it is small in number. If such an organisation can't act as a rallying point in Sydney then perhaps, for all the words of encouragement, the only thing the people listed above have in common is that they're all in the same building on Sunday.
I really don't think that's fair. ACL is huge compared to Anglicans Together. AG has no outside support or support networks and is relatively unknown. Many parishes are unwilling to identify themselves under one heading, for fear of being branded... I think it would be wise for parishes not in support of the Diocesan line to join Anglicans Together; but again. You have lumped ALL non-Jensen-specific-Evanglicals together. As though Liberals are the same as Anglo-Catholics and so on... Almost as though you would like to create a ghetto.
The other thing is that in other dioceses groups like Anglicans Together are unnecessary, because the different churchmanships within Anglicanism seem to manage to coexist without being militant.
And as to the implication in your paragraph above, that seeing as there's only a handful of us anyway, we have little in common and little ground to stand on, and should be allowed to be restricted until forced out of existence: you know nothing, clearly, of the nature of churches that are not Evangelical. My parish is the strongest in the Eastern Suburbs, apart from (*swallows*) St Mathias. Christ Church St Laurence is also strong. I can't speak for others, but I dare say they are havens for those fleeing from bad Evangelical experiences.
Perhaps we find it hard to be unified, not so much because of a lack of aims and goals, but because we are disillusioned, because our parishes are so far apart geographically, and because we are very aware of being a minority.
quote:
Perhaps he's using it to remind the parish of some regulations it might have forgotten, such as the fact that the use of a chasuble has been banned in the diocese for the best part of a century.
As you clearly have no understanding of what Anglo-Catholics get up to in this Diocese, you are hardly qualified to speak about violations of use of the chasuble. Maybe I should raise rather the issue of disrespect implied by an assistant minister getting up in thongs, shorts and an hawaiian shorts to lead a service? Certainly this is not authorised, but Evangelicals who are incensed at the very thought of the chasuble have no problems with this...
As Anglicanrascal and Admiral Holder have said, Anglo-Catholics attempt to abide in peace with Evangelicals in Sydney, even if it does mean we cannot use garments we believe to be more theologically correct in our services, even if we have to make concessions we see as unreasonable.
As to Archbishop Jensen making the place Evangelical by force... It need not be by force. There are plenty of precedents in the Eastern Suburbs and elsewhere where Jensen supporters and Evangelicals deliberately infiltrate a parish and take it over. It happened at Bellview Hill. It is happening at St Jude's Randwick. And it's not because the parish was dead or moribund. These were active takeovers. There are many more subtle, political ways to undermine a parish - and the Jensens, if nothing else, are supreme politicians.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
Maybe I should raise rather the issue of disrespect implied by an assistant minister getting up in thongs, shorts and an hawaiian shorts to lead a service?
Err, Nunc - having just left the thread about sex shops, I was somewhat taken aback by this comment, until I remembered that "thongs" are what you poor benighted Aussies call flip-flops.
In the UK - thongs are a form of underwear, not that dissimilar to a G-string. The image of these worthy Evangelical Jensenites standing up to lead worship in such attire will remain with me all today!
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
"...and an hawaiian shirt..."
(Preview Post is my friend, preview post is my friend ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) )
quote:
Perhaps there is also something to be learnt from the way Evangelicals operate? For example, Australian readers should grab a book on Australian church history and ask themselves why Sydney has remained Evangelical while other once Evangelical dioceses, such as Melbourne, are no longer.
Do you think Evangelicals in Sydney would be utterly thrilled if a Forward in Faith parish in Melbourne sent a church plant to Sydney? Do you really think that the Diocese would welcome anglo-catholic missions/outreaches/etc?
In his trip overseas, Archbishop Jensen stated that he personally "had serious misgivings" about the ability of catholicism to "present the gospel" with clarity. If he really thinks like that, then there is no hope for us, no hope of real dialogue, and little hope that he would understand where we are coming from. [Some catholic parishes have decided to work with the Archbishop's 10% Mission goal thing; I think that to follow the prescriptions the Archbishop set down compromises those parishes' spirituality... Having said that, I also think that we should be working with the Archbishop to "win souls" or however else you want to put it, but that we should be using means that are consonant with our theology and spirituality.]
Melbourne has always been more moderate than Sydney. Partly because it was gentrified, while Sydney has always had a convict chip on its shoulder. And why should everyone be Evangelical?
At the time the colonies were being founded, the Oxford Movement was spreading great influence "back home". This caused problems in Sydney; Melbourne had far fewer problems IIRC. William Broughton, the first (and only) Bishop of Sydney (it was soon made into an Archdiocese), was a high churchman, who constantly had trouble and grief from the predominantly staunchly Evangelicals who made up the large proportion of public officials. This was the only chance anglo-catholicism got - and its adherents blew it by converting to Rome. This caused a huge scandal. And the very anglo-catholic theological college at St James' King St was closed. [If it had remained open, one wonders if Sydney might have ended up like Melbourne, with a more catholic seminary and a more evangelical seminary.]
The fledgling synod ensured its next Archbishop was Evangelical... And so Evangelicalism was here to stay.
The development of things in the Diocese of Melbourne was quite different, because of the class of people who settled there, and also because there doesn't seem to have been the same hatred of catholicism in Melbourne as there is in Sydney. There are a greater number of Anglo-Catholic places in Melbourne, and a greater number of moderate Evangelicals who are happy to use the chasuble and have candles on the altar. (Which is being standard middle of the road for the Anglican Communion these days.)
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Sir Ian Turbot (related by his marriage to my father's late 1st cousin) and the last Colonial governor of Grenada is the only Sidneysider I know of (and he no longer works for HM government, but is an 'efficiency expert' with a worldwide consultancy). Wonder what he thinks of the Jensen brothers? As Zeke said, it seems their actions make for a smaller, meaner, less welcoming Church! I am glad they are not in the US because I have relatives who are C of E! ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Hieronimus of Kensington
Apprentice
# 3273
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Posted
I was interested in Nunc's comment about St Jude's at Randwick. There is obviously something going/gone on here that I know nothing about (but that doesn't surprise me).
I find all this single brush stroke stuff very confusing. The church I attend would (IMHO) call itself low church evangelical but it does not follow the "Jensen line" uncritically. We recently had a sermon on baptism in which the Rector referred to 'effective signs'. Most of my Anglican friends wouldn't know where that phrase came from. I think he refers to himself as a dinosaur (because he's a sacramentalist). There seem to be so few left in the Anglican church. Which political party should I join?
I have good friends who attend the 'naughty' churches - on both sides! And we share warm fellowship together. I shudder at the 'mainline' view of colourful liturgical form but I also rejoice at the idea of my beloved Anglican church seeking to look outward into my community with the wonderful news of Jesus.
Enough rambling - I don't fit in I know. I'll talk to anyone who is prepared to call Jesus "Lord" even if they can't draw "2 ways to live" or hand me their baptism certificate, or speak in tongues...
I love this website and I love the range of views expressed. I love my church and I'm enjoying the struggle to work out what 10% means.
I still don't know which party to join - I am spectacularly unaligned.
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Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean they're not after me!
Posts: 22 | From: NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 2002
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Hieronimus of Kensington
Apprentice
# 3273
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Posted
Did Nunc mean Randwick or could it have been Pagewood? Just wondering...
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Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean they're not after me!
Posts: 22 | From: NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anglicanrascal:
Not even that scandalous hole of popery, Christ Church St Laurence, dares to allow its ministers to don those Romish garments.
Oh well, good try. You'll have to get 'em on another point!
MW style tangent:
I have a priest friend who was a parishioner at the abovementioned shameful den of Papism in the 50s and he tells me that while the Romish rags were never worn to celebrate, each year the statue of Jesus in the Easter Garden was decked out in a sumptious Gothic Chasuble. (He also was part of the processions down to the Parish boundaries with double thurifers to sanctify the Cathedral).
Plates below from the Book: John Hope of Christ Church, St Lawrence by L.C. Rodd, Alpha Books: Sydney, 1972.
Faith of our Fathers, living yet
The enemy advances up George St
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
If I may quickly add: they did sing 'Faith of Our Fathers' when they arrived. There were some interesting characters at the Cathedral, for, after they turned it around there was one gentleman who refused to enter through the East doors ('the laity shouldn't be in the sanctuary') and would turn his chair around and face East for the whole service.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
Hieronimous, you must know more than me... ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif) Church gossip is not always reliable... Not that I would listen to it. *puts hands over ears* ...
Basically I understood that there were some issues where the more Jensen-happy in the parish wanted to push something through which was at odds with the prevailing attitude of the parish.
I take my hat off to St Judes, both because of its support of women's ministry (at one time didn't you have a female assistant? - no I am not thinking of St James' King St - this was before Susanne Pain ever set foot in the diocese), and because of its moderation...
How are the bells going?
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Nunc, if
quote:
In his trip overseas, Archbishop Jensen stated that he personally "had serious misgivings" about the ability of catholicism to "present the gospel" with clarity.
sounds like a call to persecution you probably need to get out more.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
Ken, I am concerned that Dr Jensen should think this, because it greatly impares his basis for working with Anglicans of differing churchpersonships to his own.
It does not necessarily mean I think it is a call to persecution.
It makes me very sad that he thinks there's only one "valid" or "clear" way of "preaching" the gospel...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
quote:
It makes me very sad that he thinks there's only one "valid" or "clear" way of "preaching" the gospel...
AMEN to that, sista!
I think this comes to the very heart of the matter: prescriptive belief systems which are exclusive must consistently defend their prescription and enforce their exclusivity.
There is one further problem, though. And this, too, is key.
Anglo-Catholics and liberals in the Anglican church are concerned about diversity in unity, concerned about tolerance, concerned about respecting divergent points of view, concerned about progressive new ways of christian expression. Morally, they are simply on a different playing field to the Jensenites, whose concern is to enforce their version of truth, no matter what the casualties.
Frankly, it is a kind of spiritual terrorism. At risk of sounding contentious or melodramatic, the Jensenite model is one which would quite cheerfully fly metepahorical planes into the twin towers of free, progressive faith, and have their extremist faction praise them, while the rest of the world is repulsed. They thrive under a perceived persecution from the world, the media, liberals or whoever, and whip their followers into a frenzy of hatred. Every criticism causes them to grow stronger, their following, though small, becomes more fervent. Any increase in number or influence is exaggerated, and anyone who disagrees is made a pariah, and thus new enemies emerge.
Of course, the worst thing for the rest of us to do would be to declare a "War on Terror", because it would simply make them more fervent, more insulated, more rabid.
I suggest the greatest good can be achieved by doing our thing well! A revitalising of education, evangelism, social justice involvement, liturgy and pastoral care in the non-Jensenite parishes. An loud, effective lobbying faction. Frankly, we may have to do things which might be offensive to traditional Anglican thinking - like church plants, sponsoring alternative university ministry, encouraging the presence of the best scholars, preachers and enablers in the diocese, using the media to spread the idea that not all Anglicans are Jensenite, and so on.
OK, I've had my rant. Any more and I'll be sent to hell.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
btw, ....Kensington, I could hand you my baptism certifcate (I needed it three years ago when I became Catholic - my sister had to be baptized in to the RC faith because she was not CHRISTIAN).
I do wish The Holy Father would change his mind in one area: married priests. A very large pool of priests today is widowers with adult children. This is a sad state of affairs because most well-adjusted young Catholic men who like girls get married instead of seeking vocations. Another source is Anglican converts (at least in the US). However I agree with everything else the Vicar of Christ has stated publicly. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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The Black Labrador
Shipmate
# 3098
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Posted
Sounds like Jensen is a very conservative evangelical (i.e. reformed, anti-women priests etc). What are his relationships like with charismatic evangelicals - or do they all go to Hillsongs and similar churches?
Posts: 629 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2002
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
quote:
What are his relationships like with charismatic evangelicals - or do they all go to Hillsongs and similar churches?
to the best of my knowledge, there has been a concerted effort in Sydney to clamp down on anything that might vaguely be called charismatic. Certainly, charismatics do not receive favoured heirarchical positions and are definitely treated as outsiders. ALPHA, for example, is not smiled upon in the diocese, instead an almost identical program called "Lifeworks" is run. It is essentially ALPHA without the charimatic bits. In fact, at the flagship church of St Matthias Centennial Park, there is a very strong thrust against such unforgivable sins as prophecy, speaking in tongues, baptism in the holy spirit etc. "Cursillo", the Anglican/Catholic charismatic movement is strong in the surrounding liberal/anglo-catholic dioceses, but is effectively banned in Sydney. Another example of "My way, or the highway!"
There are a fair number of evangelical Anglicans who have decamped to ACC (Australian Christian Churches, a pentecostal conglomerate, a larger denomination than Anglicanism in actual attendance) because they feel threatened by the prevailing attitude towards charismatic Christians. What's more, most chrismatics have a healthy understanding of women's ministry, and are thus not sufficiently "bible-believing" to be "True Christians".
Relations between Hillsong-like churches and the Sydney diocese are more or less non-existent at a decision-making level and their events and courses are not advertised or encouraged. This is partly because of the "prosperity theology" divide, but even moderate charismatics are in the same boat.
Thankyou for raising the issue of charismatics. It is a factor that can sometimes be ignored/forgotten by non-caros like myself.
![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Better yet, is the Rev Philip's description of the RCC as a "sub-christian" sect in a slim volume he co-authored back in 1991. St Mathias is a block away from St Frank's and on the few occasions he and his flock were invited over (along with the ministers and parishioners of the local UCA and Lutheran churches)the Rectory door was slammed in the face of the inviters. I have suggested he be invited over to preach on or about March 21, but I suspect that Cranmer himself would be a crypto-catholic to the Jensen boys and their ilk.
I have noted some slightly smug references in the local Press as well as on these boards to the fast growth of the ACA in Sydney, as well as to the (relative) youth of the adherents. Certainly the Jensenites are a presence on the University campuses, although they appear to be taken more seriously at the University of New South Wales (close to St Mathias which is the uni's de facto chaplaincy)than at my alma mater, Sydney U. I would not mind betting that there are more disaffected Jensenites of 25 plus than the boasters care to admit.
Perhaps if the good brethren wish to have a lifelong hold on their converts they could take a few lesson's from Escriva's mob.
just a thought,
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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LucyH
Shipmate
# 3570
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Posted
meanwhile here in enlightened Perth[ W.A.] our dean is so busy telling us what not to believe that hardly anything remains. Now there's no such thing as sin apparently.Certainly my experience of worship that the cathedral was that the congregation was actually superflous. I am tempted by 'a plague on both their houses'but being christian and it being lent would content myself by knocking their heads together.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Jeez, Lucy, it sure beats being told ad nauseam what IS a sin. At least your dean is working on the not unreasonable premise that his flock can think....
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
How do you spell de ja vu?
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
I have noted some slightly smug references in the local Press as well as on these boards to the fast growth of the ACA in Sydney, as well as to the (relative) youth of the adherents. Certainly the Jensenites are a presence on the University campuses, although they appear to be taken more seriously at the University of New South Wales (close to St Mathias which is the uni's de facto chaplaincy)than at my alma mater, Sydney U. I would not mind betting that there are more disaffected Jensenites of 25 plus than the boasters care to admit.
Perhaps if the good brethren wish to have a lifelong hold on their converts they could take a few lesson's from Escriva's mob.
just a thought,
m
There was a time that evangelicals in Sydney started getting good at kids ministry and people said 'they'll grow out of it when they get to high school.' Except then their endevours led to growing numbers of teenagers becoming Christians. So people said 'they'll grow out of it when they go to uni' Except then Philip Jensen started at UNSW and growing numbers of uni students started becoming Christians (BTW I walked past the Syndey Uni EU activities at O Week the other day and they were easily the biggest community group on campus). So now we hear "I would not mind betting that there are more disaffected Jensenites of 25 plus than the boasters care to admit." Except that now Moore College is bursting at the seams with '30 somethings' who have given up jobs/careers for theological training. I will take multipara's bet. (At the same time I do not doubt that there are people who would describe themselves disaffected Jesenites, just as I would describe myself as a disaffected Liberal)
CJS
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
My wife's parish has a woman vicar and we love her! She's a competent administratrix and homilizer as well as a very spirtual and intelligent priest who has worked all over the world! Exactly when in te 19th century wer the Jensens born? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
ps is administrix a word? I mean it to be like 'aviatrix' a female aviator or in this case a woman admin! its not copyrighted..use it if you dare! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
There was a time that evangelicals in Sydney started getting good at kids ministry and people said 'they'll grow out of it when they get to high school.' Except then their endevours led to growing numbers of teenagers becoming Christians. So people said 'they'll grow out of it when they go to uni' Except then Philip Jensen started at UNSW and growing numbers of uni students started becoming Christians (BTW I walked past the Syndey Uni EU activities at O Week the other day and they were easily the biggest community group on campus). So now we hear "I would not mind betting that there are more disaffected Jensenites of 25 plus than the boasters care to admit." Except that now Moore College is bursting at the seams with '30 somethings' who have given up jobs/careers for theological training. I will take multipara's bet. (At the same time I do not doubt that there are people who would describe themselves disaffected Jesenites, just as I would describe myself as a disaffected Liberal)
*claps*
How wonderful! Aren't we all happy!
It would appear from what you say, CJS, that Jensenism is a success story! I mean, it makes and keeps people for life! Or so it seems you are implying. How wonderful indeed that the Jensens between them have managed to create a uniform single eyed pattern of belief in the diocese.
Actually I think there is a large back door. At all stages of life. People come and go. It's part of life (other patterns in life follow the same line).
Yes EU is the largest Christian group on campus. But I can tell you from experience how shallow it is theologically, how it doesn't touch on life at all, how it... Well never mind. At least it can't be as bad as NSW uni, which had direct Jensen control. We only had Philip out once or twice as far as I can remember from undergrad days, and on both occasions, in spite of being willing to be sympathetic, I felt I could have better used my lunch hour enjoying the sunshine and blue sky...
Jugular, you are right about the lack of recognition of charismatic churches. There are charismatic Anglican churches around, but they are in a minority. I think the only thing some Jensen places are happy to share with charismatics is the Hillsongs Music and Graham Kendrick... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) (Having said that and rolled my eyes, some hillsongs stuff is quite good...)
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Yes, CJS, no doubt Moore College is chockers with thirtysomethings....mere babes to this old boiler! After all, where else is there for the literalist/ male headship brigade to go?
Thirtysomething is hardly "late vocation" time these days-but does the place attract 45-plus students-or are they just the professors?
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hieronimus of Kensington
Apprentice
# 3273
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Posted
Having reread my previous ramble I can see why Nunc assumed I was at the worthy church of St Jude. I'm not (I go further west) and the 'church gossip' may be accurate. My only knowledge of the place comes from having friends who have friends and family in attendence and the bells sound great.
The comments about charimatic purging (that may be too strong) interest me. There a number of charo Anglican churches around Sydney (true they seem to be marginalised) but there seems to be a growing 'tolerance'. One 'charo' Rector is an area dean!!! Don't know how that got throught the net... having dangerous loonies influencing the lives of impressionable young clergy.
I still think that if the charos get their theology sorted out and mainstream evangelicals don't get their worship together then there is a good chance of the charismatics exploding even more than they have.
As I understand the gospel, following Christ calls for moral reform of life and church. The scriptures do not tell me that I must sing this song at this speed using these instruments and wearing these shoes.
I really love the bredth of expression that Anglicanism provides and I continue to pray that there will be more dialogue and less distrust among the brethren (& sistren for the pedants). There is always the danger of going to extremes in our practice. I'm not heavily into ritual - my idea of heaven would be 1662 Holy Communion with a mixture of 17-18 century hymns and some contempory Australian stuff. I'll have to start my own church soon... unless someone's already doing that.
I've had brilliant experience at ornately liturgical A/C churches (and a couple of shockers) but of course the same can be said at my own church and any number of others I've attended.
Jensenism (it hurts me to use the term because I think it gives them too much credit) has its strengths (did anyone read the SMH editorial on Fri?) but unless you're an adherent it seems very threatening and very, very abrasive. I must continue to cultivate my friendships with the people I know who are from Matthias and who are ex-Matthias. There are an aweful lot of them around the south and east of Sydney - and I find them lovely, godly people (maybe some of them are a bit intense - glad I'm not!!!). The danger I see is an inability to think outside the square. "This worked at UNSW so it must work at Blacktown TAFE / Christ Church St L / slums of Nairobi ...." you get the picture.
I am convinced that just because something has worked once it does not mean that it will work again (doesn't mean it won't). We need to be looking at all sorts of possibilities. IMHO engaging respectfully with people from all walks of life in our community - not just dumping the latest 'church growth' or 'Matthias Press'or whatever methodology upon them.
I'm raving again sorry.
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Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean they're not after me!
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
It is also worth noting that, off the top of my head, I can think of at least a dozen vocations from various non-evangelical Sydney churches in the last few years who have had to go out of the diocese to receive non-Jensenist theological training, not to mention the women who don't agree with the headship issues! Evangelicals are not the only ones giving up their lives to serve the church. The Charles Sturt University School of Theology has over 350 students, lay and heading towards ordination, so Moore is not the only one! That's not counting all the other non-evangelical colleges as well!
There is a backdoor out of most mega-churches and uni-churches, in fact, it is intentional. For an exclusive church, the aim is survival of the fittest. Any one who doesn't last the distance is clearly not strong enough to be one of the elect. I often wonder what happens to all those people after Youth Alive and Billy Graham rallies. If you believe the stats, nearly everyone is saved. Where are they? And just how many victims are there out there? And how many people have been tunred off by the message of the hardliners? In an effort to convert their 10%, the other 90% can rot in hell.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Fungus
Shipmate
# 4243
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hieronimus of Kensington:
The danger I see is an inability to think outside the square. "This worked at UNSW so it must work at Blacktown TAFE / Christ Church St L / slums of Nairobi ...." you get the picture.
I happen to know the Chaplain at Blacktown TAFE. He looks and sounds like a builder's labourer and gets on quite well with the students. He also went to St Matthias for years. He, at least, has certainly thought outside the box because he does things very differently to university ministry.
quote:
... but unless you're an adherent it [Jensenism] seems very threatening and very, very abrasive.
An excellent summary of the feelings in this thread! Thank you.
Posts: 137 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Mar 2003
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fungus:
An excellent summary of the feelings in this thread! Thank you.
Perhaps you'd care to comment on the scriptural objections to the premises of Mr Dean's sermons that I raised in post 2 of this thread?
That is: - Rebuking those outside the authority of the Church is beyond our remit
- To use the organs of the secular media and government to achieve christian ends is to consort with principalities that belong to Satan.
- After the example esp. of Paul: we are not to challenge authority or to seek to modify society. But rather, as Jesus says, to be salt and light to the earth. (People will be as convicted by our preaching as by our example).
- There is no scriptural basis to say that the inclusiveness of the gospel is also its exclusiveness. The need to repent comes out of conviction by the Holy Spirit.
.
What is Dean Jensen suggesting?
"But listen to the gospel message of Jesus, the one who died and rose again and who is coming to judge the living and the dead, and you will see the appropriate response is to repent. It is to change. It is to turn back from your lifestyle and your self. It is to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus."
Is he not doing the same as the people "who wish to come to God their own way"? He has provided a mechanistic formula that excludes the Holy Spirit. Doesn't his view contradict the 'irresistible grace' of Calvinism? Regardless, who is he to judge on whom the Holy Spirit is working and to what repentance the Spirit has called that person?
Dean Jensen is creating a new, dangerous and self-righteous formalism. As J.C. Ryle said:
quote:
Awake, above all, if you are an Evangelical formalist. "There is no devil," said the quaint old Puritans, "like a white devil." There is no formalism so dangerous as Evangelical formalism.
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Fungus
Shipmate
# 4243
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus Coot:
Perhaps you'd care to comment on the scriptural objections to the premises of Mr Dean's sermons that I raised in post 2 of this thread?
Here are my attempts at answering them:
quote:
- Rebuking those outside the authority of the Church is beyond our remit
Under what authority then do church leaders call for peace in Iraq or decry the use of embryonic stem cell research and euthanasia?
Culture is not neutral thing in which Christians reside, but rather the interaction of many different belief systems and world views. Therefore, while we can't rebuke those outside the church (because they don't hold the same beliefs as us), we can critique them because the Christian world view allows us to see problems that others may not. For a good example of this find a copy of "God and Culture", edited by D. Carson and John Woodbridge, or read anything by Ravi Zacharias.
Anyway, as members of a democratic nation we have as much right to influence the political and social scene as anyone else.
In the case of education, as mentioned by the Dean, Christians have a strong belief that schools teach (either directly or indirectly) a value system as well as knowledge (after all, that's the point of a Christian school). If that is the case, what's the value system taught in a secular school? Officially there is none, or at least it's unstated, but with Christian eyes you can see that it's really Secular Humanism. The point about "secular education being turned 'secularist'" is that in practice it's becoming increasingly difficult to conduct scripture classes in government schools (at least in NSW) so that the only value system students are really exposed to is Secular Humanism.
Should Christians be happy with this? Of course not. If the Secular Humanists want only their value system taught then they can set up their own schools. In government schools a variety of value systems should be available (Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc), taught by competent teachers who believe what they're teaching.
quote:
- To use the organs of the secular media and government to achieve christian ends is to consort with principalities that belong to Satan.
You say in your original post:
quote:
The kingdom of this world and the mechanisms of secular society belong toSatan.
and therefore were his to tempt Jesus with. Surely the kingdoms of the world are really God's. Satan may have great influence over them but to actually own them would have meant that God is not totally sovereign. Only Jesus accepting Satan's offer would have made this a reality.
Secondly, if the kingdoms of the world are Satan's why does the Prayer Book urge us to pray for the Queen and all in authority? Wouldn't they be Satan's principal agents?
I'd argue therefore that the mechanisms of secular society can be regarded as neutral even if the prevailing culture only uses them in ways that are against Christians. Also, as mentioned above, as members of a democratic nation we have as much right to influence the political and social scene as anyone else.
Alas it's getting late and I have to go to work in the morning. I'll try and address the rest of your objections tomorrow.
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Hieronimus of Kensington
Apprentice
# 3273
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Posted
It's all gone very quiet on this thread. Has the Iraq situation had that much effect? If you live in Iraq I imagine an affirmative response. Obviously the well read Mr Fungus got too busy at work - I was enjoying his considered reply. My mind is not structured to provide such detail - far too tangential I am.
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Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean they're not after me!
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Under what authority then do church leaders call for peace in Iraq or decry the use of embryonic stem cell research and euthanasia?
Because they speak for a large number of Christians. It's not just Christian leaders that speak out about ethical and public issues; it's just that historically, Western Society has been Christian, and therefore in a sense I suppose the church is expected to have a view (or views) to be expressed.
This still doesn't mean that the Church can rebuke those who are not in its fold; it might warn or express a strong view against a course of action (like the war in Iraq), but it can't rebuke. It CAN rebuke its members - if rebuke is part of its approach. And I dare say that rebuke these days really doesn't exist in an institutional form, outside of the Catholic Church. With the exception perhaps of sexual misconduct of clergy and other behaviour related issues.
However, the Anglican Church certainly wouldn't have much to say to me if I did support the war in good conscience; I think the Church recognises that with temporal matters there is always more than one viewpoint, and more than one viewpoint that might be valid.
If the whole of my parish voted Labor, and I voted Liberal on Saturday, my parish priest is hardly going to rebuke me...
On a pastoral level, rebuke should turn to support; if I fell pregnant (apart from the fact it would be an immaculate conception ) I would hope that rather than telling me off for being a slut, my parish priest and fellow parishioners would support me, regardless of the circumstances of the conception. Especially as I think I would know if those circumstances were dubious or "sinful".
But now I am rambling.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Black Labrador
Shipmate
# 3098
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Posted
I don't agree with everything going on in Sydney, but I like the focus on church growth.
Admittedly this approach does alienate some people and evangelical churches have a back door as well as a front (but often people just switch to other evangelical churches as well as drop out altogether) but it does seem to be producing better results than most other dioceses.
Nunc, could you expand on your comments about Jensenites taking over non-evangelical churches. Are these by any chance attended by tiny numbers of elderly people? And are there evangelical churches down the road bursting at the seams? In which case what's the problem?
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Royal Peculiar
Shipmate
# 3159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian S:
Are these by any chance attended by tiny numbers of elderly people? And are there evangelical churches down the road bursting at the seams? In which case what's the problem?
The problem is that the church has a pastoral responsibility to "tiny numbers of elderly people" who cannot simply be ignored if they don't fit into the big game plan. In many cases elderly people have given a lifetime of devoted service to The Church and when they find that their traditions of churchmanship, tastes and wants are just ignored because of a desparate desire to "bring the young people in" or " pastoral schemes" it causes very real pain. Believe me, I have experienced this in the C of E and it left me with a very jaundiced view of the Church which has still not wholly abated more than a decade later. Is it offcial church policy to treat elderly people with contempt? Or do certain sections of the church just try to give that impression?
Royal Peculiar (37 years old, going on 83)
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Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Oscar Wilde
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian S:
I don't agree with everything going on in Sydney, but I like the focus on church growth.
Admittedly this approach does alienate some people and evangelical churches have a back door as well as a front (but often people just switch to other evangelical churches as well as drop out altogether) but it does seem to be producing better results than most other dioceses.
Nunc, could you expand on your comments about Jensenites taking over non-evangelical churches. Are these by any chance attended by tiny numbers of elderly people? And are there evangelical churches down the road bursting at the seams? In which case what's the problem?
Church growth isn't everything, Ian.
Royal Peculiar is right. The church has a pastoral reponsibility to those who come - old or young. There also has to be the recognition that while many older people are happy to experiment and "get them in" there are others that find change hard. From a pastoral point of view, I think the church is obliged to consider their needs to, and not just ride all over them as "old biddies" whose ideas are "irrelevant".
Also there is rather alot of stereotyping about what makes a successful parish. It's not just Evangelical parishes that are growing, or which have the potential to grow. Why shouldn't the church experiment within the tradition it has already? My church has just started a youth group. We are heavily Anglo-Catholic. Starting the youth group was at the request of a number of high school kids who come to the parish - which continues to grow and is strong.
I think it's as much a matter of perspective, as of demography, as of commitment to a particular tradition... If there is enough enthusiasm and real belief in what one is doing, then the potential for growth is already there; people on the whole are attracted to places/events/people/things that are "alive" in their approach to life.
The problem with Sydney is exactly that it seems to want to impose a particular way of "growing" churches.
Actually, our focus should be rather on the gospel, on living it and witnessing to it. If church growth in our parish happens, great. If it doesn't then I suppose we must trust that God is working in a different way...
To address your question: St Stephen's Bellview Hill, which was taken over by St Mathias people, had a strong tradition, and was attended by a reasonably large group of albeit elderly people. They welcomed the young families who came. They got voted onto the parish council, and before you could blink your eyes, the services had changed, and the older people's needs were ignored. This was a tragedy in my view - where the young families demand things at the expense of the older people, and because we all know how important youth is, the minister/rector caved in to their every whimsy. My parish consequently picked up a number of former St Stephens people.
It's not only Anglican churches that do this to their older people. Before I left my parents' church (a presbyterian joint) a similar thing happened. The minister of the Presby. church in the next suburb decided to do away with traditional services altogether. His elderly people moved to our parish, and they were very hurt and upset about his actions. Many of them had been there since the church was built, had sacrificed much for its building, and contributed to its furnishings - which were now being ripped out so the minister could lay wall to wall carpet and install theatre seats.
The sadness of the whole thing was that the young people from the evening service at myparents' church were now getting married and having children, and they were clammering for a morning service that suited them. Many were hotly against "dirges" and "old-fart stuff" and were unwilling to consider compromise.
The result was that the traditional service was cut down and shifted to an ungodly early hour, and the "family" service was created in the former morning service space. It was a shorter service, specially designed for these families - who never actually showed up. Some of the older people were very happy for these changes to happen, others felt very marginalised. And for it all to fall apart was devastating. My mum commented that she felt the services were "dead" because the enthusiasm and rejoicing had gone out of them - proving it doesn't matter what sort of music you have, or what sort of service style you have, unless there is heartfelt worship from the congregation, it's futile. And in this case, the congregation had been so divided, there wasn't a hope of heartfelt worship.
After a couple of years things reverted to the way they used to be. I don't know what's going on now, but I believe many of the stalwarts who used to be there are now in nursing homes or have retired to other areas of the state...
My own experience at the Cathedral in a smaller way bore out the "youthism" of the church. During the time I attended, the clergy (and chapter? can't remember) decided they wanted to start a youth service, soemthing with "music youth will like". In the process of doing so, they overlooked the fact that there already were a group of about 15 "youth" who came to the Cathedral because of the services, traditions, hymns etc - and in all the time I was there (3 1/2 years) the only sort of real pastoral involvement we had was from the verger, and it was a very informal arrangement.
Indeed, many people came in from the suburbs to the cathedral, specifically because it was the only refuge of traditional services that they had, the services at their own parish having been replaced in many cases without any sort of provision. Which is why Dean Jensen's actions last week were so hurtful: yet again people who find traditional services easier to worship in were trodden over.
I am not saying traditionalism for its own sake ought to be maintained. I am saying that as a pastoral issue the needs of older people need to be considered too.
I am also suggesting that there is more than one way to "grow" a church - and that it depends very much on the vision of the person/s in charge of the parish. Just because it's a traditional or catholic parish doesn't mean it's incapable of growth, as my own parish very much shows...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Grizabella
Shipmate
# 4099
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
I am not saying traditionalism for its own sake ought to be maintained. I am saying that as a pastoral issue the needs of older people need to be considered too.
Excellent point Nunc! Whilst I am not opposed to change and modernisation within the church, I agree strongly with you that all proposed changes have to be considered in light of the needs of the congregation! You cannot marginalise one group for the sake of another, and as you have pointed out, no one style of worship should be imposed upon a group on the basis that it is better or more appropriate than another. Better is of course subjective and no one style will meet the needs of all people! Change within a church needs to be made in consultation with all significant and interested parties and needs to occur within a framework of cooperation and gradual transition!
On a brighter note, I believe Dean Jensen has stated that he recognises he made a mistake with his initial Sunday service and that he will be rethinking how to introduce change!
Posts: 104 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
Yes, I had heard that too Grizabella - apparently there has been so much protest he is reinstating the canticles...
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Yes, CJS, no doubt Moore College is chockers with thirtysomethings....mere babes to this old boiler! After all, where else is there for the literalist/ male headship brigade to go?
Thirtysomething is hardly "late vocation" time these days-but does the place attract 45-plus students-or are they just the professors?
The oldest student I know at Moore College is in his mid-50's
Posts: 665 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
quote:
There was a time that evangelicals in Sydney started getting good at kids ministry and people said 'they'll grow out of it when they get to high school.' Except then their endevours led to growing numbers of teenagers becoming Christians. So people said 'they'll grow out of it when they go to uni' Except then Philip Jensen started at UNSW and growing numbers of uni students started becoming Christians (BTW I walked past the Syndey Uni EU activities at O Week the other day and they were easily the biggest community group on campus). So now we hear "I would not mind betting that there are more disaffected Jensenites of 25 plus than the boasters care to admit." Except that now Moore College is bursting at the seams with '30 somethings' who have given up jobs/careers for theological training. I will take multipara's bet. (At the same time I do not doubt that there are people who would describe themselves disaffected Jesenites, just as I would describe myself as a disaffected Liberal)
*claps*
How wonderful! Aren't we all happy!
It would appear from what you say, CJS, that Jensenism is a success story! I mean, it makes and keeps people for life! Or so it seems you are implying. How wonderful indeed that the Jensens between them have managed to create a uniform single eyed pattern of belief in the diocese.
Actually I think there is a large back door. At all stages of life. People come and go. It's part of life (other patterns in life follow the same line).
...)
My only point was that Jensenism is no less successful at 'making and keeping people for life' than any other Christian tradition.
Posts: 665 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
CJS:
Sure, I guess even Moore College has its late vocations; we've had them on my side of the Tiber for years. But I'd be curious to know, is the student male and married? Would an elderly bachelor be permitted as a would-be ordinand?
Perhaps there is some hope for the Sydney Anglican Church after all...since the singing of canticles has been (albeit grudgingly) restored at St Andrew's.
m (shamelessly and intractably Roman)
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
CJS: In a further reply (in part to your riposte to Nunc):
About 30 years ago I first encountered the Evangelical Union aT Sydney U; it was especially strong in the medical faculty. I went along with an acquaintance to a "cell group" and left pretty smartly after being told that RCs were not Christian and that unless I mended my ways I would go straight to Hell. I told the GLE who revealed this to me that he had committed the sin of "presumption" i.e. the expectation of salvation without using the means to obtain it. I am happy to say that he and the vast majority of GLEs that I knew in those days have left that theology behind. Those that I see are in 3 groups: the totally lapsed (the majority), continuing Protestants in the liberal tradition(chiefly UCA), several Anglo-Catholics and (nothing to do with me) RCs. Without exception, they have commented about the black-and -white legalism, use of selective quotations from Holy Writ and downright exclusiveness of that scene. Many left after early marriage (encouraged since it is better to marry than to burn) and subsequent separation, which was frequently followed by social ostracism. All were disillusioned.
Yes, indeed there are exceptions, they are always there. However, the Sydney Anglican Church appears to be neither catholic nor apostolic, even if it lays claim to holiness. Do you think that it can prevail without seceding from the rest of the Anglican communion?
Just wondering,
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
quote:
Do you think that it can prevail without seceding from the rest of the Anglican communion?
No.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
What Royal Peculiar and Nunc said
IME people who clamour for change are often very fickle. The Presbyterian church quoted above obviously discovered that the hard way.
Isn't it far better for a church to keep the established services, which have a guaranteed congregation, in the usual format and at the usual time. Then the experimental services can be started at an alternative time, so it can be monitored how they go. If it doesn't work, there is no great loss and maybe a different approach can be tried. Wholesale alteration for the sake of it causes so much distress and is of negligible benefit.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
*sigh*
I heard tonight of yet another parish which has been overrun without regard to its tradition.
In this case, the appointment fell to the Archbishop (which is what happens when a parish doesn't manage to pay its way) and he installed the chap who had been the right hand man at St Mathias' as rector.
This was an historically middle of the road parish. Or has been, until now. The former St Mathias' chap who's been installed there wants to be known as a "Pastor" not as Rector.
He has put forth motions to the Parish Council for the stained glass windows to be removed "because images are idolatrous" (offending those who were the donors, or whose parents/grandparents were donors). This motion was rejected. So he put forth the motion to have the windows boarded up.
He has also put forth a motion to board up the chancel - the 8:30am Traditional service, with which he refuses to have anything to do, can use the space that is sealed off, while the 10am service will no longer "be offended" by the chancel and altar.
He also imported a large number of people from St Mathias.
The churchwardens counting monies after the 8:30am service have been ejected from the Vestry by 10am people "who need to use the space for prayer." They are now obliged to count the monies at home. (Which of course isn't acceptable, and they are very concerned about it.)
This chap is apparently "nice to talk to" and has recently been appointed as area dean, though God alone knows why he would accept a position like that seeing as he is so against the Anglican structure, and against its history. He also seems to have a stunning lack of pastoral understanding...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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