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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Bishops' stance on Jeffrey John
Fiddleback
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# 2809

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quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
You don't know that this *doesn't* apply to any other bishop, married or unmarried, heterosexual or homosexual. Hadn't you better start writing round to them all about what their sexual experience has been?

Quite. If the Lord Bishop of Forgotten-about Rural Diocese in the North of England has not in thirty years of marriage zorbered his wife, either by intent or in error, he must be even more boring than he looks.
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Jon G
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I'm slightly intrigued about where an argument based on medieval english common law is supposed to take us anyway.

One of the major reasons why I became a Christian is because Jesus was not a traditionalist!

[ 11. July 2003, 12:32: Message edited by: Jon G ]

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At the dark end of the street

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dj_ordinaire
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Never mind Christianity and homosexuality, since when was it incorpoarated into Darwinism? One of the arguments most often used by "traditionalists" is that it is "unnatural", i.e. doesn't lead to the propogation of our genes, which, we are informed by Dawkins et al is all we are here for. Pots and kettles, I think.

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Spong

Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518

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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Why have no evangelicals broken ranks and spoken out in support of JJ? Because Reform and co. would denounce us as 'never really been evangelicals anyway'. Does the label matter then? Personally I think it does, but the more sensible of us have got to speak out now.

I think that's probably the only hope of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat here. If there was a forceful denunciation by open evangelicals of the way that this campaign was conducted, a firm commitment to abide by the tolerance and love that admittedly is there in Issues, and a call for a genuine and non-homophobic debate, that would be very helpful. If it came in a united statement from, say, the colleges such as Durham, Ridley, Bristol (?) and their alumni, and maybe from those on the bench of Bishops who are evangelical but who are on the side of the angels in this, ISTM it could be quite powerful. With luck and a following wind, AffCath would be able to respond positively, and there might be some hope for a consensus of the sensible to break the sterile party politics of the CofE.

It would obviously take a few weeks to get people onside. Greenbelt is at the end of August. Just a thought...

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Spong

The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams

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Merseymike
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Thats what I have been hoping for for a while - but somehow it never seems to happen. I believe Christian Rees and Christopher Herbert have both made encouraging noises, and John Santanu did the same before the 'withdrawal', and this piece by Jonathan Bartley is of interest.

But so far, all the running has been made by liberals and catholics. Where are the open evangelicals ? Cowered into submission by Reform? Or do many of them take the Pete Broadbent line - more insidious , in my view, than the conservatives. At least they don't pretend to be anything other than hostile.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Father Gregory

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Dear Mike

Any info on "call-me-Pete" Broadbent on this one? (personal agenda from when I was on Synod [Big Grin] ).

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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ken
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Pete Broadbent used to be the curate at a church I attended many years ago.

He wasn't notably right-wing, to put it mildly.

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Merseymike
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Oh, his usual stuff. Trendy-lefty style covering up very right-wing evangelical theology. About as trustworthy as your average second hand car salesman. At least you know whare you stand with Reform.

Tell me more, Gregory ( in PM if appropriate!)

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Royal Peculiar
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Dr.Fr.Gregory

Article in Church Times says your mate Pete has written to Canon John thanking him for withdrawing his aceptance of the post and saying he admired + Oxford's efforts to chose the right candidate even if he got it wrong on this occasion. Seems to me a bit like tripping someone up, kicking him in the head and then sending him a get well card in hospital.

Dear Merseymike

I would not have said Chris Herbert was particularly evangelical. He voted for the repeal of s 28 and has always been a keen supporter of women priests ( and appointed a woman archdeacon last year). He did endear himself to the conservatives with an article stating his belief in the Ressurection a while back but if I had to pin a label on him it would be " a bit on the liberal side ". There have been allegations that he is unfair to the anti women priest faction.

The CofE Newspaper reports as a fact and the CT mentions as a possibility that + Oxford may not fill the vacant bishopric. I think that would be a mistake. It would seem rather petty and if a Bishop were needed when Canon John was appointed the need for someone with sensitivity and diplomacy is far greater now.

I find this whole episode hads made me go off bishops altogether. I might become a Presbyterian. Anyone know of a Presbyterian church which does High Mass and Benediction?

[ 11. July 2003, 15:06: Message edited by: Royal Peculiar ]

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Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.

Oscar Wilde

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Merseymike
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If you really want to go off Bishops, come and live in this diocese [Wink]

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Fiddleback
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The kindest description of Bishop Pe'e is that he is a genial w*nker. He is nice enough to talk to and quite good fun, but at the ame time he is an old man who wears jeans with large turn-ups, and ear stud and gel in his hair (he even dyes it purple for Spring Harvest), all to impress the kids.

His 'conciliatory' article in Jezebel's Trumpet today pretty well states that like many Evangelicals he can be selective with OT proscriptions because he soesn't like homosexuals but he does like prawn sandwiches. And any argument he doesn't like 'simply won't do'. He counsels reticence now for the sake of the well-being of the church, but shouldn't he have thought of that before he lent his support to Rectum Dow and Jimmy Loverpool?

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Astro
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# 84

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What is it about evangelicals in the CoE?

If Pastor Smith of the Very Independant Pentecostal-Evangelical neo-calvinist church (Wirrel Synod) suddenly left his wife to go off and live with his male deacon and indulge in "acts which christians should not mention",
a few years later his hormones die down, he loses interest in his friend and become celibate,
immediately his welcomed back now as a bishop of the Very Independant Pentecostal-Evangelical neo-calvinist church (Wirrel Synod) - with a daily TV program on the God channel, and soon becomes a popular speaker at Autumn Harvest. No problem with him as long as he still speaks in tongues and promises to pray a blessing over every prayer request you send him wrapped in a £50 note.

Yet if he had been a CoE priest no way can he come back as a bishop.

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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)

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The Black Labrador
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quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
Thats what I have been hoping for for a while - but somehow it never seems to happen. I believe Christian Rees and Christopher Herbert have both made encouraging noises, and John Santanu did the same before the 'withdrawal', and this piece by Jonathan Bartley is of interest.

But so far, all the running has been made by liberals and catholics. Where are the open evangelicals ? Cowered into submission by Reform? Or do many of them take the Pete Broadbent line - more insidious , in my view, than the conservatives. At least they don't pretend to be anything other than hostile.

I agree a public condemnation of homophobia by evangelicals is long overdue.

I think a lot of open evangelicals would take the line that JJ's appointment was inappropriate because of the furore it would cause, particularly re the Third World - rather than any desire to install CCTV in his bedroom.

Sorry to be ignorant, but what is the "Pete Broadbent line"?

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian S:
I think a lot of open evangelicals would take the line that JJ's appointment was inappropriate because of the furore it would cause, particularly re the Third World - rather than any desire to install CCTV in his bedroom.

Sorry to be ignorant, but what is the "Pete Broadbent line"?

I think you may have described it in your previous sentence

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Royal Peculiar:
I would not have said Chris Herbert was particularly evangelical. He voted for the repeal of s 28 and has always been a keen supporter of women priests.

Quite a lots of evangelicals were opposed to section 28.

Most of them were supporters of women priests - remember it was the supposedly evangelical Archbishop that Cosmo and Professor Yaffle and MerseyMike have been slagging off on these boards who got it through the Synod.

(I thought all archdeacons were women these days. Well, the last two I met are)

quote:

The CofE Newspaper reports as a fact and the CT mentions as a possibility that + Oxford may not fill the vacant bishopric. I think that would be a mistake. It would seem rather petty and if a Bishop were needed when Canon John was appointed the need for someone with sensitivity and diplomacy is far greater now.

I think it would be a brilliant idea, at least for a while.

In fact I can't see how he can honourably choose a new man in a hurry, or how anyone else can honourably take the post up.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear Royal Peculiar

"call-me-Pete" was not and is not ... most definitely ... my "mate"! [Mad]

I'm telling what I really feel about him in a PM to Merseymike as invited, (Lord have mercy on my judgemental soul). If I posted here I would be done for character assassination. [Devil]

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
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I,ve just found this on the Affirming Catholicism web site. It puts very neatly what a lot of us have been saying about JJ on this thread.

Such a waste.

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insert amusing sig. here

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Merseymike
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This letter he wrote to the Reading Chronicle emphasises that still more.

I hope I could be so forgiving.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Angloid
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As I said before, a candidate for canonisation if there ever was one.
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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally written by Jeffrey John:
We have to keep praying, keep moving our communion, keep studying the scriptures, keep loving those who hurt and reject us.

Love wins in the end, and if we are faithful, in the end we will build a Church that looks more like Jesus and that will truly be a home for all God's children.

[Tear]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Laura
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

Love wins in the end, and if we are faithful, in the end we will build a Church that looks more like Jesus and that will truly be a home for all God's children.

Gosh, he has a good attitude.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Old Hundredth
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I found his letter incredibly moving. Here is a man who is following in the footsteps of Christ. He deserves far better than the raw deal he has received but shows no bitterness and encourages his supporters to do likewise.

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If I'm not in the Chapel, I'll be in the bar (Reno Sweeney, 'Anything Goes')

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Ned43
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[For what it's worth, I offer this copy of a note I wrote in answer to a quite liberated Baptist friend in the South.]

As you know, the NYTimes has a front-page story today heralding the possible breakup of the Anglican Communion. It's fairly accurate from what I have read elsewhere, although as you can imagine there are always hassles of one kind or another when the secular press reports in any detail on religion. To my mind much of the secular English press has been especially hard on the nomination of Jeffrey John to be Bishop of Reading in the Oxford Diocese -- when he was nominated, the papers said "gay nominated for bishop, could wreck church," and then when Rowan Williams met with him for six hours and he then withdrew, the papers said "Church lacks courage to back gay to be bishop." It's sort of in the "have you stopped beating your wife/husband yet" category.

That said, it really has only been since admittedly "active" or "practicing" gays have come up as potential bishops that things have really hotted up in the good ol' Anglican Communion. Interestingly, the Archbishop of Nigeria is a big opponent -- and of course he's also opposed to women priests, which it sort of puts in the same box. And the Bishop of Singapore helped consecrate two American priests to be bishops for "all the people who didn't like gays and women in the American Church." And so it goes.

For me, the whole thing is very close to a non-issue. I would offer that the comments made by the anti-gay folks now are redolent of the comments made decades ago about Black people being free, women being clergy, and so forth. The words are even similar -- "it will destroy the Anglican Church," "we're not ready for this just yet," "St. Paul accepted slavery," and on and on.

It may indeed be that if the American church approves Canon Gene Robinson's consecration as Bishop of New Hampshire (certainly not viewed as one of the red-hot progressive dioceses of the American Church!), perhaps some of those 24 US bishops will indeed leave the American church and join one of the splinter churches -- of which there are perhaps eight or ten now, ranging in opinion everywhere from total right-wing to evangelical hard-nosed to pre-Colonial theology. And if the Anglican Church of Nigeria pulls out of the global Anglican Communion (which would take a lot more than the Archbishop saying so, I believe -- it would require a complex series of votes in their national synod of bishops, priests, and lay people), they will still be "Anglicans" and things will probably go on much as before -- since all the various provinces of the Anglican Church are, like the autocephalous Greek churches, free to do what they want. (The Romanian Orthodox Church, for example, accepts Anglican ordinations as valid, whereas none of the others does.)

And most important, at least in my way of thinking, is the fact that the "real" issues we might be worrying about -- war, hunger, medical care, rights of women and children, economic exploitation, etc. -- are all sitting there on various back burners bubbling merrily away. That old phrase "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic" comes to mind when I think of the flurry over the gay bishop thing.

[deleted duplicate post]

[ 19. July 2003, 23:24: Message edited by: Scot ]

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Peter in Buenos Aires.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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Dear Ned 43

I cannot let your sideline comments concerning the Orthodox Church go unchallenged. This paragraph on Orthodox-Anglican relations is from ECUSA's own web site ...

quote:
The history of contacts, cooperation and dialogue between Anglicans and Orthodox is vast and well documented (see Orthodoxy and Anglicanism, V.T. Istavridis, 1966). Beginning with the Russo-Greek Committee of 1862, the Episcopal Church has had a keen interest in the Orthodox. When Episcopal Church missions arrived in Califor-nia, they discovered the Russian Orthodox had arrived via Alaska with a bishop. This led to questions about the Orthodox in General Convention, and thus began the longest-standing Anglican dialogue with any other church. After various conversations, in 1922 the Ecumenical Patriarchate recognized that Anglican orders “possessed the same validity as those of the Roman, Old Catholic, and Armenian Churches, inasmuch as all the essentials are found in them which are held indispensable from the Orthodox point of view for the recognition of the Charisma of the priesthood derived from Apostolic Succession.” Similar recognition was given by the Church of Cypress (1923) and by the Patriarchates of Jerusalem (1923), Alexandria (1930), and Romania (1936). Such recognitions have no practical effect until all Orthodox Churches act and until all recognize that the Anglican Communion is orthodox in faith. [my emphasis]


The reality is that Russia subsequently intervened and objected and the matter was dropped. Since then, of course, we have had the ordination of women as bishops and priests and it is not the position now of ANY Orthodox Church that Anglican orders are valid. ALL Orthodox Churches (including Romania) reordain Anglican priests who are received and become Orthodox priests. Only Roman Catholic priests are received in their orders.

Next point ...

quote:
since all the various provinces of the Anglican Church are, like the autocephalous Greek churches, free to do what they want.
[Confused] [Mad] [Confused]

(1) What do you mean "Greek" churches? Greek Catholic? Greek Independent Evangelicals (there are some). Of course, you mean Orthodox, but that's not clear.
(2) The Orthodox Church in Greece is called the Greek Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church in Russia is called the Russian Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church in Syria and the Lebanon is called the Antiochian Orthodox Church ... and so on. The latter are no more "Greek" than New York Catholics are "Roman."
(3) "Free to do what they want." You obviously know very little about the Orthodox Church!

All our clergy across national boundaries concelebrate with each other and we have one Church polity in matters of the sacraments and common life. I don't that's quite the same as some Anglicans cutting ties with other Anglicans and not recognising their ministries, do you?

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
All our clergy across national boundaries concelebrate with each other and we have one Church polity in matters of the sacraments and common life. I don't that's quite the same as some Anglicans cutting ties with other Anglicans and not recognising their ministries, do you?

No you don't, there is still that tricky business with the Russians!

And the Anglkicans havent cut ties with each other yet, and probably aren't going to.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Do you mean ROCOR / ROCA, a small splinter if ever there was one? True ... one small anomaly ... now being addressed by Moscow in a unity move, (even Rome has such anomalies ... with the Lefebvrists ... and a similar solution now in process). This is hardly surprising bearing in mind we are 13 years out of liberation for a catacombs Church. My point still stands.

I tend to find that some Christians itch to find the slightest discepancy in Roman or Orthodox unity ... but, in my opinion, only to justify their own much greater disunities.

We are not "free to do what we want" and Anglican clergy are "re-ordained" ... those were the substantive issues in the previous post.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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