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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Bishops' stance on Jeffrey John
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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... which is also presumably behind their response (which I saw on TV last night) that the proposed ordination pre-empts that as well. If the outcome went their way, (vis a vis repentance that is), they would presumably claim that the Church of England could not have an unrepentant bishop on its staff without consequences. Would they want to have him deposed as a bishop in those circumstances I wonder? They are not going to prevail of course. They must know this so it looks like the stamping of feet is getting the troops ready for something or other ... or not as the case might be if it's a bluff.

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Merseymike
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# 3022

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Mmmmm. I'm starting to wonder too. James Jones is incapable of doing anything which does not involve self advancement, and I don't think his contributions have exactly increased his chances of getting York. Does he look for higher things elsewhere?

And this little gem comes from the Forward in Faith website

quote:
We see a reordering of the Anglican Communion taking place in the Providence of God. We do not attempt to predict its future shape and constitution, but we rejoice that we live in the days when finally such a necessary transformation is imminent. We align ourselves with all leaders in the Anglican Communion whose commitment is to the revealed religion of orthodox Christianity – Biblical, Evangelical, Catholic, and Apostolic, and we pray fervently that we be obedient to God’s Word and Will.
There seems to be some sort of 'deal' going on between FiF and Reform. But I think many of the FiF members who sit on their hands when the gay issue is discussed (thinking guiltily of their boyfriend, sorry, LODGER, Doris, back in the vicarage) will think twice before abandoning the CofE for a junior role in a church which would be just as riven with disputes, with a group which is protestant and reformed through and through - can you just imagine the rows on lay presidency??!

[quote UBB added]

[ 24. June 2003, 17:42: Message edited by: Louise ]

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Callan
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# 525

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Apropos of any repentance on behalf of Canon John, he implies that the decision to embrace celibacy was made, at least in part, at the behest of his spiritual director and therefore, one assumes, in the context of the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

Isn't that enough? Or is he also supposed to cast himself on the floor in front of the High Altar of Carlisle Cathedral crying out "Tread on Me! I am as salt which has lost it's savour"? Or spend four days kneeling in the snow outside the Bishop of Liverpool's Palace clad only in sackcloth? If I were a traditionalist I would hesitate before insisting that the state of Canon John's private life and the state of his soul be pored over in the Daily Mail. One can hardly accuse liberals of selling out to the spirit of the age when one has adopted the mores of the producers of 'Big Brother'.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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Dear Professor

I suspect that is exactly what Big Brother in Carlisle wants. Secular culture has variant and deformed residuals of both evangelical and catholic culture. Public voyeurism and emotion laden testimonies are a feature of early puritanism. Private counsel and the psychotherapy derives from the confessional. When two worlds clash! .............. [Help]

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Fr. Gregory
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Flying_Belgian
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I shall not wasde in with a general post at this late stage, but rather would offer this observation on the Big Brother issue:

Is it unreasonable to suggest that if a devoted Christian servant felt that his appointment would cause a schism in the church, then the greater good dictates that he should step aside? (rhetorical question to make the point- not one for discussion)

If however, one takes the view that the objections to his appointment are unreasonable and amount to bullying, then of course, the honourable thing to do is stand ones ground and defeat the bullies.

Jeffrey John and his supporters appear to take the latter view (about which I make no comment in this post). In which case, the appointment becomes a "litmus test" of the church's view on appropriate sexual relations.

With the issue now elevated to such status, it is not suprising that we have reached this "Big Brother State", because the debate is not so much about whether person X should be Bishop, but whether activity Y is acceptable for the church as a whole.

I think it reasonable to surmise that if Jeffrey John were appointed, it would be heralded as a "victory" for those who wish to see a change in attitude of the church towards sexuality. In this case, the individual case becomes totemic for both sides.

For this reason, I think it is inevitable that the specifics of the case (in this case Jeffrey John's relationship) are subject to such scrutiny. I use the term inevitable deliberately- because I don't necessarily think this is a good thing.

For the record, I think the matter is best dealt with in private, and see little point in internal church proceedings being dragged into the secular media- especially when the case revolves around the private life of one bloke.

However, if the case is something of a test case- then consideration of the general principle; then the specifics of the case become highly germane to the discussion- not because the living arrangements of Jeffrey John are intrinsically earth shattering, but because their relation to his position as a Bishop has profound implications for the churches stance on the issue of the conduct of bishops.

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Father Gregory

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That's fair FB. However, insofar as a Christian has (albeit willingly) been dragged into this totemic dispute this badly reflects on those bishops (perhaps on both sides of the argument ... who knows) who, rather than talk and pray through their differences, would rather clash their mitres inn the public domain, (in an ever so English way ... even the Welsh men). Is it a game of who can make whom look more plausible or stupid in the court of masses. Abp. Rowan seems to be aware of the PR stakes ... I presume Big Brother in Carlisle is as well. I suppose that both sides in this antagonism have counted the odds, the risks and the payoffs. This is very unedifying and not bound to commend the gospel to the country. Still I suppose if it's the struggle for the truth that counts it can hardly be kept out of the public domain. I suspect it's another case of "well, chaps, we are not going to agree we might as well just slog it out."

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Fr. Gregory
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Flying_Belgian
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Well said Fr Gregory.

I don't think the public domain is really the place for this kind of dispute to be fought over- it hardly creates an edifying spectacle for the non-Christian world.

It creates the impression that all the church cares about is sex- which, is not a fair or representative reflection of any church I have been to.

I am not sure that the antis thought they would look superior in the court of the masses. They have hardly come across in the media as a particularly nice bunch. If this was their intention then they need a major PR rethink. Their stance has hardly come across as loving, or unpersecuting towards gays- and I say this as someone whose view on same sex relationships is traditional.

I guess the reason for doing this was that both sides felt it was the only way to energise the wider church into engaging with this debate, which, of totemic significance was too important to be conducted in private.

It is somewhat galling to see one man and his dog pitching in with their own view on church affairs; and every non church going newspaper columnist suddenly trying (and failing) in some in depth Biblical exegesis.

I sense that ++Rowan is not particularly glad to be plunged into this kind of controversy, given that his views on same sex relationships aroused so much debate prior to his ordination; and he is doing his best to keep out of it by insisting that he won't block the appointment, but equally is not wading in on the "pro" side.

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Merseymike
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I think most of us are actually in agreement about the tactics of the 'anti's'. Obviously, I am involved in this one, given my own work on behalf of lesbian and gay Christians and which Diocese I happen to be in, and I'm as biased as you can get.

However, the tactics have been heavy-handed, and I seriously believe their failure to challenge the quite awful homophobia ( I rarely use that word, but what other is there for those outbursts of loathing?) of the three overseas bishops has raised all sorts of questions about what they really do think.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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"He who sits on a fence better not have big man fall on top of him," (Old Chinese proverb - not)[sexual innuendo not intended].

Seriously I don't think Abp. Rowan's nuanced position is for self preservation ... it's a political stratagem to try and keep the 'ole girl together. That is a serious misjudgement. Big Brother & Co. have already made their mind up about him. If I were him and I had nailed my colours to the mast (which he has) then there would come a point when I would have to face everyone down and crack the whip. The only trouble is that's not very Anglican. I don't know whether it's very "Rowan." Anyone in Monmouth care to comment?

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Fr. Gregory
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Flying_Belgian
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I have some sympathy with MerseyMike here. We have disagreed in the past on sexual issues- see the chaplaincy and CU thread- but I do wonder about the motivations of some of the parties involved.

Whilst I agree with the Nigerian Bishops on the basic question of same sex relationships, it was rather revealing to find out that they seemed to be rather less intolerant towards other non-standard sexual practices which were prevalanet in their own dioceses.

What alarms me about the current episode is the message that it sends to the wider community, and in particular to gays and lesbians. It hardly suggests that the church of England is a welcoming place. Much more, it hardly suggests that the evangelical wing of the church consists of anything other than right-wing bigots- something that I don't believe is a fair statement of reality.

If the evangelical wing of the church wants to preserve its teachings on same sex relationships but avoid being seen as bigoted (something that I hope it does), then it needs to be far stronger in disassociating itself from bigotry and outright prejudice. Yes, I do believe that the Bible prohibits same sex relatioships- but this view will only avoid the charge of homophobia, if this is articulated in a loving way.

I am also saddened by the fact that secularists in the media have not hesitated to put the boot in, and use the dispute for their own anti-religious ends. My own paper, the Guardian, seems to be having a field day in bashing the evangelical movement.

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Merseymike
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I don't think its his style, Gregory. But I think he will continue to be dignified, and at least at the end of it all, he will undoubtedly appear to be fair, have listened to their point of view, and I think will have more authority because his approach will have been refreshingly free of bullying.

Belgian : I think, though, that those seeking change in the church have been supported in the liberal press - you wouldn't expect a pro-gay paper like the Guardian to be sympathetic to the evangelical point of view, really.
The fact is that the responses of those Bishops were not theological. It was all about feel;ings of personal disgust and reflection of their own culture - which is not the same as our changing culture, itself becoming more liberal on these matters.
I'm afraid my experience has been that certainly the most conservative (ie Reform) do not really wish to see any sort of gay relationships at all, for laity as well as clergy.

[ 24. June 2003, 19:13: Message edited by: Merseymike ]

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Flying_Belgian
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:


Seriously I don't think Abp. Rowan's nuanced position is for self preservation ... it's a political stratagem to try and keep the 'ole girl together.

Agreed. What I meant by my original remark was that Rowan was keeping out of things to try to defuse the situation and remain relatively impartial.
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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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Dear FB ... yes, I agree. Oh, we are so agreed! [Big Grin]

Dear Mike ... I have a lot of respect for Abp. Rowan. He would make a mighty fine Orthodox bishop, (and he wouldn't have to change his facial hair!). However, as to your prediction ... I wouldn't assume that reason will always win the day when passions are aroused. This is probably not a candidate for a gentleman's agreement.

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Fr. Gregory
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Merseymike
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Oh, I agree with that ( hehe) - I think there will be a split. But I think RW will have won a lot more admiration for the way he has not waded in without consideration for all involved.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Flying_Belgian
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I wouldn't expect the Guardian to be sympathetic to the evangelical stance on same sex relationships, no; BUT, that this is a view on a particular ethical issue.

My point was that this specific issue has been used as a stick to beat the evangelical church as a whole, something which goes far beyond its views on one particular subject. Judging by today's letters page I am not alone in this.

Was it really necessary to label the letters on the Jeffrey John issue "The Bishop and the Bible Bashers"?

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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"He who courts the media sups with the devil and had better use a long spoon." (Old Chinese Proverb - not)

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Fr. Gregory
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Merseymike
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I must be honest. Belgian ; the Guardian's coverage has reflected my own viewpoint, and I think they have 'reaped what they sowed'. Its well known around here that James Jones is only to be found whenever there's a TV camera or a microphone.

Live by the sword.....

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
In the light of this, I am sure Ender's Shadow will want to withdraw his previous statement. Since his misunderstanding also seems to be the basis on which ES thinks he can't be a bishop, I assume we can look forward to a change of heart by ES that will be as welcome as that of Sean D.

It's a fair cop - that is certainly not the reading that I absorbed from other sources, but this quote does make my argument void. [Embarrassed]

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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Well if you think this is causing problems I wonder what will happen if the rumour is correct and Canon Gene Robinson comes to speak at Manchester Cathedral in October.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Rex Monday

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quote:
Originally posted by Flying_Belgian:

If the evangelical wing of the church wants to preserve its teachings on same sex relationships but avoid being seen as bigoted (something that I hope it does), then it needs to be far stronger in disassociating itself from bigotry and outright prejudice. Yes, I do believe that the Bible prohibits same sex relatioships- but this view will only avoid the charge of homophobia, if this is articulated in a loving way.

I am also saddened by the fact that secularists in the media have not hesitated to put the boot in, and use the dispute for their own anti-religious ends. My own paper, the Guardian, seems to be having a field day in bashing the evangelical movement.

The trouble is that it is well-nigh impossible to present the Biblical view on same-sex relationships as anything other than 'the Bible says it's wrong, so it is', and that is pure fundamentalism. Most Biblical teaching has a solid moral basis even if you take it outwith the theology -- it's hard to find anything in the Decalogue which isn't a good idea.

But you know and I know people who lead good lives in homosexual relationships. It doesn't make you a bad person -- and attempts by some people to say "It leads to disease, it's obviously unnatural, it perverts the family" come across as the crassest of post-hoc justification for homophobia. (I particularly enjoy the "It goes against evolution" argument.)

You cannot defend the biblical injunctions against homosexuality in any other way than a pure call to the authority of the Bible, and... well, pure calls to holy books play remarkably badly in a secular society which isn't inclined to give any holy book an uncritical exemption from sceptical analysis. And when the bit of dogma being so enthusiastically promoted seems to run against the experience of most people, it necessarily poisons everything else connected with the dogmatist's point of view. Fundamentalists of whatever flavour are seen as potentially dangerous these days: you can't argue with them, and they might drive an aircraft into a nearby building if you get them annoyed.

I think that is one of the reasons why the evangelicals are getting such a bad press over the current kerfuffle, although there are plenty of others -- some down to intolerance and hatred on the liberal side, alas. There's sufficient irony here to build the Forth Bridge, with enough left over for a spare.

But I am constantly heartened by Rowan William's enormous good sense, humanity, spirituality, insight, empathy, intelligence and patience. Not to mention that sense of humour which glints away deep under the surface -- how he ever got the job is beyond me.

R

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I am largely against organised religion, which is why I am so fond of the C of E.

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Merseymike
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quote:
Canon Gene Robinson comes to speak at Manchester Cathedral in October.


Superb! And only a train ride away. I'll be there....

Rex, I hope that thinking Christians are also not, to quote you
quote:
inclined to give any holy book an uncritical exemption from sceptical analysis


[ 24. June 2003, 23:33: Message edited by: Merseymike ]

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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St. Punk the Pious

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I'm getting in this thread rather late. And I haven't followed the situation that closely. But I wonder if the bishops are picking the wrong fight. John has stated that he is living a celibate lifestyle. The scriptures that address homosexuality address homosexual conduct, not orientation as far as I can see. So, from what I know, a case can be made by even an fundie-leaning evangelical that John has not disqualified himself.

If you're going to fight over the appointment of a gay bishop, here in the U.S., a man who is by his own admission not celibate and in a gay relationship is up for bishop. It seems to me that is more worth fighting about.

Again, I've followed neither situation closely. But if a Fundamentalist [Ultra confused] such as myself is wondering about the wisdom of the bishops' course, maybe that says something.

(I hope I didn't make anyone faint. [Eek!] )

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multipara
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No dearie, for nothing is impossible with God...

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quod scripsi, scripsi

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
which, in ++Rowan's words, would be to 'trying to pre-empt, undermine or short-circuit the reflection of the Church as a whole.'.


The question is, who decided that it is being reflected on by the church? Given that every vote has come out with overwhelming majorities against gay relationships, it can be argued that it is a closed issue on which the church has spoken, and anyone identified with the opposite view should not be eligable for promotion. This is the policy which the CofE has imposed on the women ordination issue.....

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

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Arrietty

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quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
John has stated that he is living a celibate lifestyle.

And of course the really heretical thing Jeffrey John has suggested is that it is possible and even 'normal' for consenting adults not to be at it like knives.

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i-church

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Spong

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
It's a fair cop - that is certainly not the reading that I absorbed from other sources, but this quote does make my argument void. [Embarrassed]

Well... I have to apologise too. I was sure that you wouldn't back down, and my previous post was a bit too close to trolling for comfort. [Embarrassed] Sorry, and thank you for your post.

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Spong

The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams

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Degs

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quote:
Originally posted by socks:
quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The threat to not license curates is weak because a local church with money could directly employee people and simply ignore any church restrictions.

Yes, but they cannot function without a licence.
What exactly can't a person who would otherwise be curate do that they could do if they were licenced?

I'm genuinely curious

As far as I'm aware there is very little they can do!

They can't officiate at ANY services, preach, assist with the chalice.

The best they could do is read the lessons and visit parishioners at home - but not take them Communion.

That's if they give any weight to the Canons and Ecclesiatical Law.

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Degs:

That's if they give any weight to the Canons and Ecclesiatical Law.

Clergy have been ignoring canon law for years parishes use unauthorised liturgy, don't use robes ect and no one does anything.The diocese could spend a lot of money taking a parish to court and in the process look silly. I think a vicar can invite anyone to take the pulpit on a one off basis anyway.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Degs

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# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Clergy have been ignoring canon law for years parishes use unauthorised liturgy, don't use robes ect and no one does anything.The diocese could spend a lot of money taking a parish to court and in the process look silly. I think a vicar can invite anyone to take the pulpit on a one off basis anyway.

You're quite right about liturgy and robes, Nightlamp. The 'fruitloops' at both ends of the scale have been 'extracting the water' for years.

Of course an Incumbent can invite a preacher for a 'one off', but that's not what we're talking about.

I think even the most 'laid back' of Bishops or Archdeacons would get a strop on about an unlicensed curate exercising a full ministry!

Certainly in this Diocese. Under new management!

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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socks
Apprentice
# 4458

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quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
I think even the most 'laid back' of Bishops or Archdeacons would get a strop on about an unlicensed curate exercising a full ministry!

We were talking about the situation where relationships have broken down so much that in response to a parish witholding money, the diocese would refuse to licence a curate. I suspect by the time this situation had been reached, a strop from the diocesan officals wouldn't stop the parish using their curate unlicenced.

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Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be shot at from both sides (that's how you know you're doing it right).

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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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In that case, I think they would be no longer part of the Church of England. This is basic stuff about being part of an Episcopal church - we are not nonconformist nor congregationalist. Far more central to Anglican church order.

Frankly, though, some of these parishes have never cared about that in any case - hence my scepticism as its emphasis in Bishop James Jones' Telegraph article, for example.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

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Any views on Simon Jenkins's article in today's Times in which he claims that the dispute pits gay priests well accepted in most parishes where they practice against an intolerant, unaccountable and top-heaving hierarchy of Bishops?

Would fewer Bishops help the Church adapt to modern mores or just give more reign to extremists?

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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Depends on who the Bishops are!

Yours is preaching at our assistant priest's 25th anniversary of ordination later this year - and seems to be a good egg.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385

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The last few posts are a double edged sword. If we accept the episcopal principle seriously, then surely that means that MerseyMike, and indeed anyone in Liverpool should accept his local Bishop even if they have views which are diametrically opposed to them.

I find there to be an intrinsic conflict between the principle of an episcopalian church and a broad church. If the oversight and authority of Bishops is paramount, then there is not room for a diverse range of opinions in any one dioscis; if one does want to have a broad range of opinion, then you have to go down the congregationalist road, where each minister is accountable to the laity, and where conflicting positions can be accommodated because individual ministers are reflecting the views of their congregations (from below) rather than agreeing with the bloke at the top.

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Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
I think even the most 'laid back' of Bishops or Archdeacons would get a strop on about an unlicensed curate exercising a full ministry!

They probably would, the question being raised here is what could they practically do about it in the short term without making themselves and the C of E look (more) ridiculous?

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

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A double-edged sword for certain, and I'm not for one minute suggesting that the Episcopate should rule by ukaz - quite the opposite. Because they are figures of authority, they do have a tendency to try and abuse their power and I was just wondering whether a more parish-centric approach might lead to a more conciliatory debate. The current one is overtly quite political and I hope that ++Rowan is able to calm the flames a bit.

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
I think even the most 'laid back' of Bishops or Archdeacons would get a strop on about an unlicensed curate exercising a full ministry!

They probably would, the question being raised here is what could they practically do about it in the short term without making themselves and the C of E look (more) ridiculous?
Off the top of my head, I wouldn't like to take a guess, but I'll e-mail our Registrar to ask! I'd be intrigued to know myself.

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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I do accept him, Belgian. Thats the point. We didn't call for his withdrawal even though we may have many disagreements with him.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385

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Ok- pardon me for the misjudgement. Perhaps I can rephrase things to make the point less personal and a little clearer:

What is the point of an episcopalian system if you profoundly disagree with the Bishop?

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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568

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quote:
Originally posted by Flying_Belgian:
Ok- pardon me for the misjudgement. Perhaps I can rephrase things to make the point less personal and a little clearer:

What is the point of an episcopalian system if you profoundly disagree with the Bishop?

That sounds like it would be an interesting topic to bring up in a new thread.

Hmmmm, maybe I'll go start one...

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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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Tradition and catholic order, I suppose. Must be honest, though, recent events have made me seriously question the reality of apostolic succession!

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Well if you think this is causing problems I wonder what will happen if the rumour is correct and Canon Gene Robinson comes to speak at Manchester Cathedral in October.

I expect a good, old-fashioned stoning. "It's in the Bible!"
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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by Flying_Belgian:
Ok- pardon me for the misjudgement. Perhaps I can rephrase things to make the point less personal and a little clearer:

What is the point of an episcopalian system if you profoundly disagree with the Bishop?

obedience ? (opps did I type that out loud).

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Well if you think this is causing problems I wonder what will happen if the rumour is correct and Canon Gene Robinson comes to speak at Manchester Cathedral in October.

I don't know about him speaking in Manchester Cathedral (though I do hope so), but he is taking part in the LGCM Conference taking place at Manchester University in October!

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Well if you think this is causing problems I wonder what will happen if the rumour is correct and Canon Gene Robinson comes to speak at Manchester Cathedral in October.

I don't know about him speaking in Manchester Cathedral (though I do hope so), but he is taking part in the LGCM Conference taking place at Manchester University in October!
OOOOPS! Should check my info more thoroughly! He is, in fact, preaching at the Cathedral Eucharist during the conference!!

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

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Full text of Bp James Jones address to his diocesan synod here address to synod
Two worrying comments in particular:
quote:
The Bishop of Oxford is perceived by many to have acted unilaterally in breaching the line by appointing an openly gay priest and to have undermined the Bishops collegiality. I believe that Canon John, whose integrity and merits I do not doubt, has been placed in a distressing situation. Canon John’s recent comments in the media about his past and present intentions already place him at odds with the House of Bishops on issues of human sexuality.
In other words, either he doesn't believe Jeffrey John when he says he is living a celibate life; or he is being 'economical with the truth' as Jeffrey's views are no different from a large number of the present house of bishops; or - which of course is what +JJ (does that solve the initial ambiguity?) denies - he is homophobic.

and
quote:
It may lead to some parishes withdrawing their voluntary contributions to the diocese, which I fear in the end, would adversely affect poor urban parishes.

is sheer blackmail.

I respect the sacramental status of my bishop. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything he says but as long as he is prepared to accept that he can in that way remain a focus for unity.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Flying_Belgian
Shipmate
# 3385

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Having read the statement, I don't share your conclusions.

It struck me as a very fair minded, humble and well written statement, setting out his views in a loving and compassionate way. It is welcome antidote to the negative impressions of evangelicalism created by some of those who oppose Jeffrey John's ordination. Indeed, I might add that it shows a very different side to James Jones than the image of him which is often painted on these boards.

I don't see any sentence in their impugning Jeffery John's honesty, indeed, you neglect to mention the fact that James Jones explcicitly says:
"I believe that Canon John, whose integrity and merits I do not doubt, has been placed in a distressing situation"- hardly a negative innuendo about his charater.

As for his comments about withdrawal of funds to the diocese, I think you are being a touch too cynical. This has already happened, not at the behest of Bishop's but of individual churches. Many in the secular media, and on the ship have discussed this as a possibile result of the appointment, so it seems harsh to blame James Jones for this.

I suggest that shipmates read this statement for themselves and make up their own minds on James Jones' intentions.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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I would love to ask the Anglican Bishop of Liverpool one simple question ... but maybe someone else here can read his mind and the mind of his constituency ... or directly represent that.

"Can Jeffrey John do anything now to indicate that he is an acceptable candidate for the episcopate or has he burned his boats forever, so to speak, by, in one period of his life, having had gay sex?"

(Not that he should do that thing of course from anyone else's point of view other than the addressees of this question).

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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The Obscure
Shipmate
# 4149

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Fr Gregory, I think the answer would be:

Yes, repent of the sin.

To the best of my knowledge (going to one of the churches involved with the crisis) that's what I think the answer is - I will try to write more later after work.

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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

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quote:
Originally posted by The Obscure:
Fr Gregory, I think the answer would be:

Yes, repent of the sin.


Firstly, whether or not there is any 'sin' to be repented of is precisely one of the issues involved. Canon John is, according even to the bishop-signatories, entitled to his own view on this. The point is, it seems, whether his current conduct conforms to the norms expected of clergy at the moment - which it does.

Secondly, the type of evangelical who is now calling for public repentance generally holds a view of forgiveness which is radically individualistic, it happens between me and God. Mediation via the Church (e.g. via the sacrament of reconciliation) and ratification by the community is deemed unnecessary. Consistency?!

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insert amusing sig. here

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