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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Mormons Trying to Go Legit
Squirrel
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After over a century of proclaiming that all other churches are an "Abomination" to God, our pals at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are trying to go mainstream. This was the subject of an extensive article in TIME magazine a while ago, and lately I have encountered this directly. Examples:

1. A priest friend tells me that they were trying to enter the National Council of Churches, which had previously considered them a "cult."

2. They are playing down some of their more embarassing dogmas, such as the idea that God has a wife.

3. They now want to be calle dthe "Church of Jesus Christ," and not "Latter Day Saints." If you see the signs on some of their churches, the words "Jesus Christ" are printed larger than the others.

4. Their missionaries are showing up in local mainstream churches. I saw a half dozen young women at a Catholic mass a few weeks ago. They were very polite, and spent a lot of time talking to the priest afterwards.

5. Mormon missionaries are now doing a lot of community service work in the areas where they preach.

I have nothing against the young missionaries. Most were raised in their church, and know no better. They're also very polite and hard-working. Their help in several local community improvement projects where I have participated has been very well-received.

But still, I think we have to understand the motives of the larger Mormon church here. Myy suspicion is that they want to become mainstream in order to try and reach and convert others. Let's be cautious.

[ 10. March 2003, 01:19: Message edited by: Erin ]

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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon

"Five to one."
- George S. Patton

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Sauerkraut
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I lived in the heart of Utah for three and a half years as a "gentile." Needless to say, I know all the tricks. This is just another ploy by the church to be mainstream. If you didn't know, Mormon missionaries are allowed to lie about doctrine if they think it will help them convert. I find any attempt by the Mormons to go "mainstream" disturbing.

On a side note, if anyone knows where I could purchase a "Club Mormon" t-shirt on the net, I'd greatly appreciate it. I've used various search engines to look for it, but I cannot find it. It has the angel Moroni with a saxiphone instead of a trumpet and says, "Club Mormon: 10% and you're in." They used to sell them in Park City, Utah.

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We want not an amalgam or compromise, but both things at the top of their energy; love and wrath both burning. Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites, by keeping them both, and keeping them both furious.--G.K. Chesterton

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HoosierNan
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# 91

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Hi, Sauerkraut! This has nothing to do with Mormons.

I'm just wondering if I'm not the only "Ship's Lutheran" anymore, since we both have the same avatar.

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Sauerkraut
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoosiernan:
Hi, Sauerkraut! This has nothing to do with Mormons.

I'm just wondering if I'm not the only "Ship's Lutheran" anymore, since we both have the same avatar.

You would be correct. I was wondering when I would run into a fellow Lutheran on this board. [Big Grin]

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We want not an amalgam or compromise, but both things at the top of their energy; love and wrath both burning. Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites, by keeping them both, and keeping them both furious.--G.K. Chesterton

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St. Sebastian

Staggering ever onward
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I live in Salt Lake and while individual Mormons are, well, individuals (good, bad and indifferent) I loathe the LDS Church. I've also run into a great many Mormons who don't even know some of the more bizarre teachings of their Church, though they all know there is a Heavenly Mother. They are genuinely bewildered to find that most other Christians don't consider them to be Christian, but then, they don't seem to get much exposure to orthodox (little "o") Christianity, here.

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St. Seb

In Spite of Everything: Yes.

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Rossweisse

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Mormons on the convert trail may be the ultimate exponents of "The end justifies the means." Very scary.

They've been trying to buy their way into legitimacy for years now. Most converts know little or nothing of their true history or beliefs. And, of course, their beliefs can be very hard to pin down -- they tend to quote Bruce McConkie, but once you try to use him against them, their cry becomes, "That's just one man's opinion!"

And the fact that the cult has now managed to get control of the only newspaper in Utah that dared to stand up to them is very bad news indeed.

Rossweisse // once "friendshipped," twice shy

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Rossweisse

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Sebastian, do you know anything about reports of Episcopal churches in Utah and Idaho that supposedly join in celebrating Mormonism? The Mormons get them to recognize a particular event, then use that as evidence that Episcopalians accept the cult as Christian. I find that REALLY frightening!

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I'm not dead yet.

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Lady A

Narnian Lady
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I once had a set of mormons come to my door, but I was headed out to pick up my kids. They told me they were from the Church of Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ. I told them as I was leaping into my car that I thought it was wonderful that they were calling on the name of Christ, that their calling on Him was going to change their church around! They actually watched me drive away with both their mouths hanging open!
I wonder if that the power in the name of Christ which they seem to be using is subversively infiltrating the church. I wouldn't be surprised if Christ was gaining the upper hand! Maybe we will have to make room for them eventually. Just because the "religion" has a certain agenda does not mean that the people are falling for it, or can't change.... If the people lead, the leaders have to follow.

Posts: 2545 | From: The Lion's Mane, Narnia | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sauerkraut
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Saint Sebastian, I really do feel for you, having lived in Utah. Actually, I would love to go back because it's such a beautiful area, but I'm not sure I could take the LDS "vibe" for too long. I, like you, found Mormons run the gamit from good to bad (my favorites were always the "Jack" Mormons). I also dispise the Mormon Church. I could rant about the church for hours and hours on end. I too found most Mormons had no grasp of their own theology. It's sad when you think about it. By the way, I lived in Spanish Fork. I swear Provo, not Salt Lake City, is the center of the Mormon universe.

quote:
Salt Lake City (send help)
May I try to cheer you up. This story is definitely hellish. In San Diego (where my family moved after Utah), the night before the new temple was to be dedicated, a thunderstorm came through. Thunderstorms are rare in Southern California. This thundestorm just happened to send a lightning bolt down and struck Moroni and melted him. If that isn't a message from God, I don't know what is. [Big Grin]

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We want not an amalgam or compromise, but both things at the top of their energy; love and wrath both burning. Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites, by keeping them both, and keeping them both furious.--G.K. Chesterton

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St. Sebastian

Staggering ever onward
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Ross,I haven't heard that about the Episcopal churches and con-celibrating with Mormons, but nothing would surprise me. A mormon co-worker gave me a book once that is or was given to missionairies that clearly outlined a lot of their beliefs (like God having a wife, having once been human, etc)but I've seen mormons deny or play down those beliefs. I think the religion may be becoming a bit diluted by real christianity (or the grace of the Holy Spirit), perhaps.

Sauer, I was living in San Diego when that temple was dedicated. I went through the tour and all and I do vaguely remember the hearing about the lightening strike.

I have an acquaintance who's a hospice nurse (or something like that. All her patients are dying, anyway)who says that without fail her experience has been that her Mormon patients are terrified as death approaches. Which is both sad and telling.

The thing is, so many Christians nowadays don't really know or understand basic Christian theology, or don't think it matters, making them very vulnerable to mormon proselytizing.

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St. Seb

In Spite of Everything: Yes.

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Clay_Pigeon

Mathematics
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Disclaimer: I have massive problems with the theology of Mormonism.

That all said, I must say that having known several Mormon families, I find myself continually impressed by both their committment to fostering strong, loving families and their committment to religious calling. However skewed their theology might be, its translation into social action (with regard to mission and family) is very positive. Without adopting their theology, it wouldn't hurt to try to figure out exactly why that is, and whether it is worthly of emulation.

.....that and every mormon female I've met has been unbelievably attractive!!! What's with that?!?!?!

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THAT'S IT! NOW I'M PISSED!. You're so off my prayer list.
-Was Once Troy

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Ender's Shadow
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Of course the question is why should the Mormons be rejected from 'Churches Together'? Since we allow people with no beliefs in (Quakers) there's no objective reason for keeping them out....

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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quote:
Originally posted by troy:
That all said, I must say that having known several Mormon families, I find myself continually impressed by both their committment to fostering strong, loving families and their committment to religious calling. However skewed their theology might be, its translation into social action (with regard to mission and family) is very positive. Without adopting their theology, it wouldn't hurt to try to figure out exactly why that is, and whether it is worthly of emulation.

This has been my experience also.

I grew up in northern Virginia, and there were Mormons living near me. The children were nice; i.e. they didn't go around doing nasty things to other children.

The Mormon church encourages parents and other adults to spend time with children, playing games with them, etc. Every Mormon family is supposed to spend one evening a week engaging in some activity everyone enjoys---not watching television, but something involving active participation.

Children like adult attention as long as it doesn't take the form of criticism. It does very good things for their self-confidence.

I have a low opinion of Mormon theology, but a very high opinion of their family life.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Stoo

Mighty Pirate
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
...we allow people with no beliefs in (Quakers)...

Are you on another quest to get yourself booted, ES?

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This space left blank

Posts: 5266 | From: the director of "Bikini Traffic School" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chapelhead*

Ship’s Photographer
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Of course the question is why should the Mormons be rejected from 'Churches Together'? Since we allow people with no beliefs in (Quakers) there's no objective reason for keeping them out....

On how many levels is this wrong?

(Hint - you can start from the fact tht the OP referred to the 'National Council of Churches', not 'Churches Together'.)

Or is the level of wrongness irrelevent in the context of taking a pop at the Religious Society of Friends?

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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by troy:
...having known several Mormon families, I find myself continually impressed by both their committment to fostering strong, loving families and their committment to religious calling.

The flip side of that is their tendency to write out of the family any members who leave the cult. That's one of the holds they have on them. And I had a gay colleague who finally killed himself over the treatment he received from his family and the cult hierarchy. That ain't loving -- and, unfortunately, I don't think it's that unusual.

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I'm not dead yet.

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multipara
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Rossweisse, the practice of ostracism of family who leave the fold is not peculiar to Mormons-there are a whole stack of horror stories pertaining to SDA's, Plymouth Brethren, Mennonites, Christian Israelites etc-not to mention my own club (RCC, in case it ain't obvious). A pox on the lot of'em. True, it is not a barrel of laughs to be gay in that setting-it being such a marriage and family-centred outfit.

On the flip side, I agreeMoo that although their theology is dubious and their evangelising ditto, they are generally good on family stuff. Some years ago I was a GP in a very socially deprived area of outer Sydney with a big Mormon population. They were among the few of my patients who did not booze, smoke, do drugs, swear and neglect their kids (of whom they had lots). I got to know a few of the young mums very well, and it was interesting how many of them had had really horrible past lives-rape, incest, drugs, you name it. They felt very supported by the church and one in particular (who had had several kids as a teenager) felt that at least she had been given some credit for being a mother-by then she was married to a nice (but dull) lifelong Mormon by whom she had had another few babies. Most admitted that the hardest thing to give up once they joined the church was a nice cup of tea!

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quod scripsi, scripsi

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papillon
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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Most admitted that the hardest thing to give up once they joined the church was a nice cup of tea!

!! Give up tea...nooooohhhh that is strange (to me)

On the other hand i donno if it's true but i always thought it sweet that Mormons find as many names of people (regardless of religion) who have died around the world and put them into a big cavern hewn out of a mountain side somewhere in Utah, in the hope that they'll reach heaven that way, is that right? Doesn't sound very logical but nice nontheless. [Smile]

To me the church seems a little eccentric but essentially harmless, though I don't know that much about the CLDS to be honest and i may be being naive!

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"..for active love compared with contemplative love is a hard and awesome business." Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov.

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HoosierNan
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The Mormon families I have known (through my homeschooling support group) have been great to their children. But they are not so great as far as treatment of the mothers.

My closest acquaintance who is Mormon has 4 living children, ages 14 to 6; one daughter who had multiple birth defects and died very young; at least two miscarriages (that I know about); and she looks pregnant again, but I can't be sure. She's well into her forties--isn't enough, enough?

I am not good at pregnancy--one miscarriage, one emergency C-section, one scheduled C-section that had very bad complications. I had the sense to get a sterilization operation. This poor woman--how many pregnancies, miscarriages, child deaths is she supposed to go through?

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multipara
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I agree, enough is enough.

Actually, I did refer a fair few grandly multiparous Mormon ladies for tubal ligation (most younger than 30 years old) mainly because none of the husbands could come at a vasectomy. I did ask all these ladies what their bishops thought about sterilisation and in fact , there did not seem to be any objections from above.

Maybe the Oz Mormons are a bit more relaxed than the ones in the US-after all, Utah is a long way off!



[fixed a Freudian slip "the one sin the US" to "the ones in the US" since it was probably more accurate--if not less honest]

[ 12 August 2002, 02:28: Message edited by: tomb ]

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quod scripsi, scripsi

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tomb
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# 174

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No, multipara, Utah is not a long way off. The current myth is that the drought Colorado is suffering through is because last winter's cloud seeding in Utah to insure sufficient snow for the winter Olympics prevented the snow from falling on our much nicer (and MUCH higher) peaks.

Of course, I wasn't aware that Utah was seeding the clouds, laboring as I was under the assumpting that Alta and Snowbird received quite enough snow, thank you very much, without stealing it from Aspen and Vail.

Of course, if Utah really Did.It., I'm quite willing to believe that it was a Mormon.Plot., having no love of that particular religion.

Nevertheless, as a Shipmate and not a host, I feel compelled to point out to the Aesir, Shipmates, Apprentices, and the usual hangers-on Dregs of any internet site, that Mormonism is as legit as any other religion in the United States of America. We guarantee it in our Constitution.

So when anybody posts any European Chauvinism about Mormons not being "legit"--presumably because they're not "orthodox" (small "o", Alex, and pace) I wonder if I should mention some of the other weird-ass religions I've encountered.

Naw. Better not. Let 'em enjoy their four TV channels.

And guess what? All those scrubbed vacant-eyed testosterone-challenged missionaries they send out from Salt Lake are convincing a lot of people of the Truth of their religion. I daresay they've got a better track record than all the Anglo-Catholics cowering in their tat-infested boxes, not to mention the sanctimonious Lutherans and their conversion-by-luetfiske.

God forbid that any of y'all, convinced of the power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit, would set out to invite anybody into a relationship with the Living God.

Much more comfortable to slag a "cult" because it's doing a better job than you are.

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
... To me the church seems a little eccentric but essentially harmless, though I don't know that much about the CLDS to be honest and i may be being naive!

I think that to most (non-Mormon) people in the western United States they don't come across as "harmless." The cult controls most politics and business in Utah, along with parts of Idaho and Arizona; they just managed to take control of the one newspaper that dared to counter the party line.

Their view of women is particularly appalling. Women are basically here to wait on men and bear children. Good Mormon men, they believe, eventually get to be gods, with their own planets and harems; the most for which women can hope is to become the Lead Mrs. God. But women won't even rise on the Day of Judgment unless their husbands lift their veils and call them by their special temple-assigned names. (Brigham Young liked to threaten one of his particularly obstreperous concubines with non-lifting/calling.)

Needless to say, I don't subscribe to this view.

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Squirrel
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Prthaps one reason why Mormons are so successful in their recruitments is that they have ANSWERS. They may not be the right ones, or even practical ones, but they ARE answers, and that's what many people are seaching for in times such as our own. The JWs, another group that keeps growing, also offer ANSWERS.

These are uncertain times. A church which offers concrete instruction on everything from how to pray to what type of underwear to wear (I kid you not; Mormons wear special "temple" undergarments) is bound to appeal to many people.

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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon

"Five to one."
- George S. Patton

Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
tomb
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# 174

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Well, I'm not exactly certain that I would throw over my entire world view based on my underwear.

But then, maybe I would. Does it vibrate?

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multipara
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No, tomb, the Mormon undies definitely do not vibrate. I refer you to a lovely couple of posts from our very own Miss Molly (in Heaven back in June in the "how to deal with JWs etc" thread, I think) in which she described the Garment (as it is known) as being embroidered in god thread with various significant designs.

I did see this garment back in my GP days and I don't recall any embroidery. It was a sort of combination boxer shorts and undervest in some sort of white synthetic (which tended to get a bit grey after lots of washing)and was worn by men and women alike. I think it is put on after baptism because I don't recall any of their multitudinous kids wearing such a thing. Molly, bless her heart , shot back that after all , Oz is mission country.

It sure is; there are any number of sweet young Elders (and the occasional pairs of Sisters) missioning around Sydney. I feel a bit sorry of the boys on a chill winter's day, when they are standing on a draughty street corner with nothing warmer than a short-sleeved nylon shirt to keep the icy blasts out. I must say I would not decribed the lads as being "testosterone-challenged"; well sublimated, yes but eunuchoid, no. They are generally polite, but will never agree to my suggestion that if I undertake to read a chapter of the Book that they will come to High Mass at St Mary's Cathedral with me.

On the subject of a Mormon dress code-that reminds me of a (possibly apocryphal) story I once heard abou the Prophet, Brigham Young. He was a blood-and thunder sermoniser as well as being incurably uxorious. He had a big downer on trousers which unbuttoned down the front (just becoming fashionable in the 1850's) and would fulminate from the pulpit against "those fornicating trousers" which the Saints were forbidden to wear. I often think of this and giggle as I walk down Liverpool Street and wave cheerio to those sweet young Americal missioners.

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quod scripsi, scripsi

Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
doctor-frog

small and green
# 2860

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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
I think it is put on after baptism because I don't recall any of their multitudinous kids wearing such a thing. Molly, bless her heart , shot back that after all , Oz is mission country.

just a slight technical note: it's put on after you go through the Endowment ceremony in the Temple (which is based on the Masonic initiation rites and is itself a sort of initiation into the Celestial Kingdom ... they give you the passwords to get in, etc.). Kids are baptised at 8 (the age of accountability). Generally speaking, you don't go through the Endowment till later: usually before you go off on a mission (male) or get married (female).
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

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quote:
Originally posted by Hoosiernan:
The Mormon families I have known (through my homeschooling support group) have been great to their children. But they are not so great as far as treatment of the mothers.

My closest acquaintance who is Mormon has 4 living children, ages 14 to 6; one daughter who had multiple birth defects and died very young; at least two miscarriages (that I know about); and she looks pregnant again, but I can't be sure. She's well into her forties--isn't enough, enough?

I am not good at pregnancy--one miscarriage, one emergency C-section, one scheduled C-section that had very bad complications. I had the sense to get a sterilization operation. This poor woman--how many pregnancies, miscarriages, child deaths is she supposed to go through?

I would have ignored this post on any other board, but this is Hell.

Just what is your point? I'm sorry that your personal experience with pregnancy has been difficult, but please don't project it onto others in such a flippant manner.

I say this because my mother had five living children over a period of 17 years, plus one child (the second) who died (at age 2) of birth defects, and at least one miscarriage that I know of. She had the last child at age 42.
You seem to be saying that there is something intrinsically wrong with this scenario no matter how it came about.
But she was a Unitarian married to a Baha'i, so even back in the Dark Ages of the '40s and '50s, she wasn't subjected to any blatant subjugation.

If your point is that the CLDS is somehow oppressing women, please find some better examples than the fact that some women have more than two children, even in this day and age. [Roll Eyes]

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Well, I'm not exactly certain that I would throw over my entire world view based on my underwear.

But then, maybe I would. Does it vibrate?

Oh, good Lord! [Eek!]

I've corrupted Tomb! [Eek!]

What have I done?? [Eek!]

David
oops

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
They are generally polite, but will never agree to my suggestion that if I undertake to read a chapter of the Book that they will come to High Mass at St Mary's Cathedral with me.
A woman at my church in New Hampshire once brought two Mormon missionaries to our midweek Eucharist.

She had told them that she would attend a service at their church if they would attend a service at hers. They agreed.

I don't know whether they violated Mormon policy in doing this.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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HoosierNan
Shipmate
# 91

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Jennifer, I know that many women have lots of children, and do well with that. But to have a policy that one should have constant pregnancies, whether or not the family finances can justify it, whether or not the woman can physically cope with it, is something that is, in my opinion, not a proper way to treat women.

There are many groups--not just Mormons--that oppress women by making it part of their religious duty to be baby-makers. It is, in my opinion, much better if a realistic assessment is made of the family situation and a limit placed on how many children is desirable.

My husband wanted more children, and I would have been OK with more children, if it had not been for my medical situation. Quite frankly, if I had not been in a state-of-the-art medical facility for delivery of my two living children, it is very likely that either I or the baby would have died in each case.

/sarcasm alert/Pregnancy has few risks for men, /end sarcasm/ but is still a life-threatening condition for a woman, or can be. So I have big issues with any male-controlled hierarchy that tells women that they have to have intercourse with their husbands without any form of birth control.

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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A Wee Shriek

First, yes, I know it's Hell, where we complain about things...

I don't agree with Mormon theology--in many serious ways (law of eternal progression, etc.)-- but it seems like half of what people are posting is about stuff which is frankly the same kind of thing a lot of mainstream/orthodox churches teach or do, which various Shipmates adhere to. Is posting, basically, "let's dump on the Mormons" really a good thread, even in Hell?

Also -- we have all kinds of people here on the Ship, including non-Christians, and even atheists. I think most of us are closer, doctrinally, to Mormons than to atheists. Yet if we try to treat atheists with some respect, why not Mormons? Not saying that I agree with their doctrines -- but the attitude of "They are all cackling evil nasties with a hidden agenda" strikes me as kind of inappropriate, even for Hell...

I know if I were a Mormon and saw this thread, I sure as Hell wouldn't want to bother getting to know people here, or hear the orthodox Gospel from them. The thread isn't about discussing disagreements with the Mormons, if I'm reading it right -- it's "Hey! Mormons are bad! Let's complain about them!" (It's ironic that about half of the things people are bringing up are things which other Shipmates' (orthodox) churches believe...)

Personally, I've wrestled with whether or not Mormons are even Christian. (I've come out on the "they're Christian but very heretical, like the Arians, as opposed to being Buddhists or somesuch" side.)

But I'm not sure I find them more annoying, or dangerous politically, than some other groups which are doctrinally closer to the mark.

David
grumbly and tired orthodox guy

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
A woman at my church in New Hampshire once brought two Mormon missionaries to our midweek Eucharist.

She had told them that she would attend a service at their church if they would attend a service at hers. They agreed.

I don't know whether they violated Mormon policy in doing this.

I believe they did. I have a number of friends who regularly get rid of them by offering to take their literature if they'll accept a copy of Presbyterian Life, Episcopal Life, or the Lutheran, Methodist or RC equivalents. Offering to trade off church visits with them is generally guaranteed to leave you looking at nothing but a few puffs of dust as they run away from your dangerous door as fast as their feet will carry them.

In regard to the earlier "testosterone-challenged" remark, bear in mind that these boys all believe that they will someday get to be gods, having constant, cosmic sex with their harems of lovely Mrs. Gods. Beneath those fashion-impaired exteriors, one could say, lurk a bunch of megalomaniac sex fiends.

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I'm not dead yet.

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
<snip>
Yet if we try to treat atheists with some respect, why not Mormons? Not saying that I agree with their doctrines -- but the attitude of "They are all cackling evil nasties with a hidden agenda" strikes me as kind of inappropriate, even for Hell...

I know if I were a Mormon and saw this thread, I sure as Hell wouldn't want to bother getting to know people here, or hear the orthodox Gospel from them. <snip>

Personally, I've wrestled with whether or not Mormons are even Christian. (I've come out on the "they're Christian but very heretical, like the Arians, as opposed to being Buddhists or somesuch" side.)

Just a couple of points:
  • Mormons are being given as much, or more, respect as evangelicals, fundamentalists, young-earth creationists, etc. - all of which are subgroups of Christianity.
  • Mormon teaching is not Christian. Therefore, Mormons are not Christians.


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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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St. Sebastian

Staggering ever onward
# 312

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Papillon,

The cavern you're thinking of is where they store the geneological records. Having your info stored there is irrelevant to your salvation. I think you're confusing baptisim for the dead and geneological record-keeping (though they are linked; the reason for their interest in geneology is their duty to proxy-baptize their ancestors).

I agree with what's been said above about individual Mormons and especially the strong families (though I've seen the downside of the strong families, too. That only works when the parents are decent people). As was said, all the criticisms of Mormons pretty much applies to any of other group. They's good'uns and bad'uns. It's the theology that I loathe and the instituitional abuse. I would never judge someone I just met because I knew they were Morman. My partner's sister and brother-in-law are devout Mormons and I love them to death. They are wonderful and truly decent people. Then there's another branch of in-laws who are devout and horrible people. So there you go.

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St. Seb

In Spite of Everything: Yes.

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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quote:
Originally posted by troy:
Disclaimer: I have massive problems with the theology of Mormonism.

That all said, I must say that having known several Mormon families, I find myself continually impressed by both their committment to fostering strong, loving families and their committment to religious calling. However skewed their theology might be, its translation into social action (with regard to mission and family) is very positive. Without adopting their theology, it wouldn't hurt to try to figure out exactly why that is, and whether it is worthly of emulation.

.....that and every mormon female I've met has been unbelievably attractive!!! What's with that?!?!?!

Wow! Now I know why so many people keep asking me if I am Mormon...Troy...wink-wink-nudge-nudge [Heart]

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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Sorry Troy...I couldn't help it...going out and buying "the Way you look tonight" since I don't think you would appreciate Peter Frampton sung on your front lawn.

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Barmint
Shipmate
# 3174

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Squirrel: I think your informant was a little confused regarding the National Council of Churches thing. A check of the NCC website shows that they list the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a Christian denomination; I didn't see anything there about a cult.

Given that the NCC is an ecumenical movement, I suppose the LDS church would not want to participate for the same doctrinal reasons as the Catholic Church. (I believe Catholics are observers at NCC, not participants.)

> They now want to be calle dthe "Church of Jesus Christ

There was actually a press release from the LDS church on this, I can probably dig it up if you need it. The church prefers to be known by its actual name, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" (rather than "Mormon," which is a nickname). If you need a shorter form, "Church of Jesus Christ" is OK by us. :-)

> Their missionaries are showing up in local mainstream churches

That's nothing new - we certainly were doing that 20 years ago when I was a missionary. It's good to get out and learn about others' beliefs.

> Mormon missionaries are now doing a lot of community service work

Again, nothing new - we used to help out at soup kitchens back in the '80s, when I was a missionary.

Saint Sebastian wrote:
> they don't seem to get much exposure to orthodox (little "o") Christianity

Actually, the LDS church offers a wide variety of educational classes to its members, free of charge. I attended two courses recently, one on Christian denominations in general, and one on non-Christian denominations. The teacher was a student working on his PHD in Humanities, did an excellent job of presenting the material. The goal was to learn about others' beliefs, but not to tear them down.

Troy wrote:
> every mormon female I've met has been unbelievably attractive!!!

I'll mention that to my wife. :-)

Rossweise wrote:
> their tendency to write out of the family any members who leave the cult

My sister woould be surprised to read that. She's not participating in the LDS church any more, but she's still my sister!

> Their view of women is particularly appalling.

I imagine you could find a number of "strange" ideas if you looked at what any of our churches said in the 19th Century. However, also in the 19th Century, the LDS Church taught that men should lead their families with love, patience and tenderness - sort of ahead of the times, I think.

> bear in mind that these boys all believe that they will someday get to be gods, having constant, cosmic sex with their harems of lovely Mrs. Gods.

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that the *last* thing a missionary dwells on is sex. For goodness sake, they are celibate for two years, no dates, nothing. Imagining cosmic sex would sort of undermine the celibacy thing.

Hoosiernan wrote:
> how many pregnancies, miscarriages, child deaths is she supposed to go through?

Yes, we tend to have lots of children - as do members of other cultures and faiths - but there's nothing in the religion that requires that. I happen to come from a 2-child family, myself.

tomb wrote:
> So when anybody posts any European Chauvinism about Mormons not being "legit"--presumably because they're not "orthodox" (small "o", Alex, and pace) I wonder if I should mention some of the other weird-ass religions I've encountered. <

Not to mention asking the Protestants when the Catholics granted *them* legitimacy? :-)

Moo wrote:
> She had told them that she would attend a service at their church if they would attend a service at hers. They agreed.
> I don't know whether they violated Mormon policy in doing this.

Not at all. Our local missionaries here in town were attending with the Pentacostals occasionally, invited by the minister and some of his congregation (they were also studying with the missionaries).

Sharkshooter wrote:
> Mormon teaching is not Christian

All of us have different opinions on what Christ taught. That's why different churches exist. I believe in Jesus Christ with my whole heart.

Hope this was helpful...

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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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Barmint,

Welcome to Hell, and thank-you for a gracious and well-thought-out reply to a provocative thread.

Enjoy your time here, and I hope each post is as calm and well-thought-out.

Viki, hell-host

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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Barmint, thanks for your thoughtful replies to everyone's posts.

Now I would like to ask you...

Can you confirm for me if the LDS Church believes the following:
1)Jesus is Satan's brother
2)You too can become a god!
"ALL EXALTED MEN BECOME GODS. To believe that Adam is a god should not be strange to any person who accepts the Bible. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son of God, he answered the Jews: "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods*? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"- Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.97 - p.98
3)Father God begat Jesus with Mary, who is the Heavenly Mother

*from Psalm 82:6, I believe this verse to mean "judge" in meaning for the word "el-o-heem", not "deity"- duchess

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jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

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quote:
Originally posted by Hoosiernan:
Jennifer, I know that many women have lots of children, and do well with that. But to have a policy that one should have constant pregnancies, whether or not the family finances can justify it, whether or not the woman can physically cope with it, is something that is, in my opinion, not a proper way to treat women.

There are many groups--not just Mormons--that oppress women by making it part of their religious duty to be baby-makers. It is, in my opinion, much better if a realistic assessment is made of the family situation and a limit placed on how many children is desirable.
<snip>

That I can agree with. Why didn't you just say it in the first place?
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Clay_Pigeon

Mathematics
# 2516

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quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
Sorry Troy...I couldn't help it...going out and buying "the Way you look tonight" since I don't think you would appreciate Peter Frampton sung on your front lawn.

I think that goes without saying. A 1964 cut of Sinatra belting "the Way You Look Tonight" with all of its little breaks and a rhythm that just pushes you along with it is vastly superior to any popular music of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

....

<thinks.....takes in pets, locks windows and doors, loads 44>

So let me know exactly when you're coming so I can...uh...get a sufficient surface down for the tap dancing.

Anyway...While my theology is still very much NOT Mormon, the concept of people becoming gods is not a new one in the Christian tradition. The idea of theosis (discussed elsewhere on SOF) has been bouncing around the Christianity for a long time, and is generally very compatible with most threads of the Christian tradition. It simply means that we will become like God in more dimensions than just ethics and morality. Indeed, given the infinite nature of God, it raises a lot of realy neat questions to bounce around your head.

That said, the traditional vision of theosis is very very different than what Mormons profess, but it (at its root) is not THAT weird of an idea.

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THAT'S IT! NOW I'M PISSED!. You're so off my prayer list.
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

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I have no doubt that we will be pleasantly surprised by whom we find in heaven, and I suspect that some Mormons will be there. And they will be there, as we will all be there, because in fact they were trusting in God's grace to forgive them rather than because of the 'boxes that they have ticked'.

And continuing the affirmation of Mormon practice; the role that teenagers have as 'Levitical priest' provides a defined role for them in the church that most churches fail chronically to provide.

That said I strongly suspect that most of the ceremonies surrounding Mormonism are detract from the simple trust in God that is at the core of our faith.....

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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What do you know I wake up and find a serious debate in hell about Mormons. We don't have nice serious debates here so to puratory you go.

Nightlamp
Hellhost

PS I was thinking that christian started off as a nickname for followers of christ.

[damn typos]

[ 13 August 2002, 08:12: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
I have no doubt that we will be pleasantly surprised by whom we find in heaven, and I suspect that some Mormons will be there. And they will be there, as we will all be there, because in fact they were trusting in God's grace to forgive them rather than because of the 'boxes that they have ticked'.

News Bulletin: Apocalypse Nigh
WASHINGTON, DC (AP) -- The Apocalypse is nigh, according to sources who were frankly astonished to see ChastMastr agreeing wholeheartedly with Ender's Shadow on the Ship of Fools "Purgatory" board in a thread concerning Mormons. "I just can't believe it," an astonished ChastMastr said. "I mean, I'd assumed, because of prior disagreements, that there was no way we'd agree on something like this, but I agree with Ender's Shadow on this one. I found the tone of the thread to be a bit harsh, even though I disagree with Mormon theology in many respects, but they are, I believe, trying to follow Jesus as they understand Him, and while I consider many aspects of their theology to be incorrect, I think that you could pick any given Mormon and find that he or she really does love and trust Jesus to the best of his or her ability -- and that matters more, in the long run, than whether their doctrine of the Trinity is correct or not -- even though I think the doctrine of the Trinity to be quite important. If a first- or second-century Christian with little notion of such matters could trust Jesus and be 'saved,' then I don't see why a Mormon could not. I know that if my understanding of God's nature is incorrect, I'd hope that He is merciful and loving enough to guide me as close to the truth as I can get in this time on Earth, but also to 'save' or 'redeem' me when I die, rather than laugh and say, like a malevolent game-show host, 'Ha, wrong answer on the test, you are the weakest link, goodbye.'"
ChastMastr also extended a hearty welcome to Barmint, and is glad the Mormon point of view has someone on the Ship who can discuss and debate such matters.
ChastMastr, a former copy editor, is really terribly glad he no longer works at a newspaper.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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I tried to keep this thread in Hell, because I don't seem to have anything I can contribute while it is in Purgatory. I bow to the majority (and, of course, to the host's ruling) who think a reasoned debate is the way to go.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

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Personally, I think that Mormons (LDS) are a different religion to Christianity.

What separates christianity from the LDS faith is to broard to say that they are a heretical group that should be brought into the christian fold.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I bow to the majority (and, of course, to the host's ruling) who think a reasoned debate is the way to go.

Well, I think a reasoned debate is always the way to go... [Cool]

Sorry to see you leave the thread, sharkshooter; if you want to come back and engage in reasoned debate I'm sure we'd love to have you...

*hugs*

David

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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St. Sebastian

Staggering ever onward
# 312

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Barmint,

Welcome to the ship! I was discussing this thread with Molly yesterday (see "Miss Molly" thread in All Saints)and we were saying that we wish there were Mormons on the Ship. I hope you stay! I appreciate your lack of defensiveness, too; you'll be able to add an interesting dimension to the discussions.

I don't know if this will (or should) start a thread of it's on, but since some of us don't believe Mormons are Christians, or that they are, just heretical ones, can someone explain why it matters? Actually, why heresy matters. If they aren't Christian, just a religion using Christian terminology with very different meanings, then I guess I can see why it matters. If they are heretical Christians, when push comes to shove, what difference does it make? They clearly (well, the devout ones) lead decent lives and follow Christ as they understand Him and His teaching, so where's the harm if they are mistaken on a great many things? I have an inchoate sense of why it matters, and will say if I can ever get it sorted out in my head so it makes sense, but I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks (including you, Barmint, since from your perspective we are the ones who've got it all wrong). Is it that it affects their/our eternal salvation? Is it that they/we don't experience the fullness of . . . God, or His love or something because we aren't dealing with the truth (reality, what-have-you)?

IanB once posted on the ship "...every single heresy represents a dimunition in the witness of the church, and for every dimunition the universality of the message is dimmed and someone, somewhere, loses hope." Is that the crux of it?

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St. Seb

In Spite of Everything: Yes.

Posts: 962 | From: Burlington, North Carolina | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Personally, I've wrestled with whether or not Mormons are even Christian. (I've come out on the "they're Christian but very heretical, like the Arians, as opposed to being Buddhists or somesuch" side.)

I agree. I see Mormonism as a departure from what I'd consider orthodox Christianity, but I think to claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is outside the "Christian" box is wrong, if only because the base being built on is a Christian one rather than anything else. And I still think there are major theoretical difficulties for people who, outside of an ecclesial structure and without Tradition as a pillar of authority, seek to brand the further revelations of Mormonism unChristian - especially if Joseph Smith's claims can cohere with the Scriptural account we already have in the OT and NT, and there is evidence in favour of them.

(Of course, that last point is where I think sola Scripturalists probably have quite a lot of evidence to play with, so the problems are probably quite minimal in practise.)

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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I'm really sorry to see that this has been removed from Hell, because I think it's a decidedly hellish topic. But...

quote:
Originally posted by Barmint:
A check of the NCC website shows that they list the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a Christian denomination; I didn't see anything there about a cult.

The Mormons have lobbied heavily to be accepted as "Christians," but that does not make them so. Christians have, over the last two millennia, had some core beliefs in common, which Mormonism does not share. Here are a few of them:

1) Monotheism. The doctrine of the Trinity is the ONLY way to reconcile Jewish monotheism with the fact of Christ's divinity and the reality of the Holy Spirit. But it's a complicated concept, and Smith obviously didn't understand it. Hence the three albino guys in the temple movie: the Mormon trinity is three separate gods.

Mormonism also teaches that there are lots of other gods out there, and, of course, that Mormon men can become gods too. This is so far from Christianity that it amounts to a 180-degree difference.

2) The Bible as the only necessary scripture. We Christians certainly disagree on interpretation, and some of us have suggested that certain books be dropped from the canon ( pace Martin Luther), but nobody wants to add anything to it. In fact, we're specifically warned against those who who would do so.

The Book of Mormon is the only "holy book" that is demonstrably untrue: Smith plagiarized chunks of it from the Bible, threw in a few thousand "and it came to pass"-es, and invented a ton of stuff that is archeologically, anthropologically and biologically insupportable. (Well, okay, he stole the "British Israelites" and Indians-as-Hebrews bits.)

Smith also did major rewrites to the Bible itself, and other "translations" that don't work, most notably that embarrassing episode with the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Needless to say, none of this is remotely Christian.

3) Heaven. Christians believe in one heaven, for all believers, and most basically acknowledge the role of grace in getting there. Mormons have three classes, steerage, coach and first class, based on a misunderstanding of Paul's reference to the Classical view of the universe, and where you go depends largely on works. If you weren't a Mormon in life, then it also depends on whether somebody manages to dig up your name and have a proxy baptism done for you (see below). This stuff isn't Christian, either.

4) Baptism. Christians believe that it's one to a customer (yes, I know that some denominations do not accept each others' baptisms as valid, which is unfortunate, but....); Mormons are baptised and re-baptised when they get into trouble. (I had a colleague, an opera singer who spent a lot of time on the road and had an eye for the ladies, who at last count had been excommunicated and rebaptized at least four times. But I digress.)

And then there's the whole business of "baptism for the dead." Mormons believe in gods who demand that human beings act as a conduit to salvation; you don't get your proxy baptism, you're going to be limited in where you go in the afterlife. Aside from the impossibility of ever getting the name of every human being who ever lived (even discounting the Neanderthals), this is not Christian.

There are many other differences, but these are some of the biggies. It's also important to remember that Mormons define many words (including "salvation") differently than do Christians. I don't think they should get away with unilaterally redefining the term "Christian" itself. I can call myself Elizabeth Windsor, but it won't put me on the throne of Great Britain. And putting Jesus's name in the subject line doesn't make it Christian.

quote:
Originally posted by Barmint:
That's nothing new - we certainly were doing that 20 years ago when I was a missionary. It's good to get out and learn about others' beliefs.

Missionaries show up at my church regularly to try to convert the rector. He always tries to find time for them, but they're not the least bit interested in the beliefs of others. They're there to push the party line -- naturally enough.

And, of course, the presentation of the Christian minister in the Temple ceremony does not show any particular respect for Christians or Christianity.

quote:
Originally posted by Barmint:
((Their view of women is particularly appalling.)) I imagine you could find a number of "strange" ideas if you looked at what any of our churches said in the 19th Century. However, also in the 19th Century, the LDS Church taught that men should lead their families with love, patience and tenderness - sort of ahead of the times, I think.

Has Brigham Young's ruling on that one been rescinded? (It was such a relief to learn that "a single drop of Negro blood" is no longer damning after all!) This is another area in which Mormonism is not Christian; salvation -- real salvation -- is an individual matter, and no husband or any other human being can get in the way of it.

And, no, I don't think the "leading with love" was "ahead of the times" -- that was standard Christianity. In fact, it seems to me that it was standard Judaism, too. And then there's the whole polygamy thing.... (Yes, I know it's not officially sanctioned -- right now. But it shows a view of women as chattel that is also not Christian. But that's another discussion!)

quote:
Originally posted by Barmint:
All of us have different opinions on what Christ taught. That's why different churches exist.

Yes, but as noted above, the different churches do have basics in common. Mormons have repudiated most of those basics. Christ did not teach us that the Kingdom of Heaven is just like human life, only with more sex. Christ didn't come to set up a hierarchy of heavens and gods, but to bring us all to the everlasting Presence of God. Deo gratias.

quote:
Originally posted by Barmint:
I believe in Jesus Christ with my whole heart....

But which Jesus Christ? The one who is the physical brother of the Devil? The one who has lots of wives and is merely one of many, many gods, even if the three gods of this world are "the only god with whom we have to do?" Or the One who IS God, the only one in the entire Universe, the Creator (not mere organizer), taking on human form for our (genuine) salvation? They're not the same.

I worship the One God, not the Devil's brother, and so do all Christians. Alleluia, alleluia!

--------------------
I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged



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