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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Mormons Trying to Go Legit
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
...I think to claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is outside the "Christian" box is wrong, if only because the base being built on is a Christian one rather than anything else....
Mmmm....I disagree, JL. It may have started out as a Christian base, but rapidly went very far from that. (See my previous post for some ways in which Mormonism is light-years from Christianity -- and it's by no means an exhaustive list.)
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I'm really sorry to see that this has been removed from Hell, because I think it's a decidedly hellish topic. But...
But it has been. Why are you sorry that it's entered the sphere of reasoned debate (and debate with a real, live Mormon! ![[Sunny]](graemlins/flowerface.gif) ) rather than angry ranting? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Isn't that a step up?
Myself, I've been aware (for years now) of all those examples you give, and I still maintain that while I believe Mormon theology to be heretical from an orthodox point of view, it is still a Christian heresy as opposed to something wholly apart, like Buddhism. (And the reason I classify it as a heresy is precisely for the reasons you give -- as opposed to a more minor variance in doctrine.) Not sure what else to say in response.
David
Soon to appear with Ender's Shadow in a surprising issue of Marvel Team-Up: "Against the Apocalypse!"
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
...Why are you sorry that it's entered the sphere of reasoned debate (and debate with a real, live Mormon!) rather than angry ranting? Isn't that a step up?
((smilies edited out -- sorry!))
It would be, except that I'm afraid I'm going to incite Hostly Wrath for having strong feelings on the subject, and for having expressed them; HW seems to be somewhat unpredictable and just a tad bit idiosyncratic in its application. Sorry -- I'm still relatively new to this forum, but my understanding was that discussions in Hell could be a bit more open. I'm all for rationality in discussion, as in everything else.
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Myself, I've been aware (for years now) of all those examples you give, and I still maintain that while I believe Mormon theology to be heretical from an orthodox point of view, it is still a Christian heresy as opposed to something wholly apart, like Buddhism. (And the reason I classify it as a heresy is precisely for the reasons you give -- as opposed to a more minor variance in doctrine.) Not sure what else to say in response.
But it goes so far from any remotely Christian belief in so many areas; it's much further removed from Christianity than Christianity and Islam are from Judaism -- and yet it claims to be the only REAL Christianity. I don't think I'd have nearly the problem with Mormonism if they would simply admit that this is a whole different ball game and not pretend to be "Christians, just like you," as the missionary laddies are taught to put it.
By the way, I always enjoy your tag lines -- especially the "minty fresh" one.
Rossweisse // for truth in advertising
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
Rossweisse, if you were a man, I would stalk you, but since I am 100% straight, I will applaud you.
<clap! clap! clap!> ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
YOU GO GIRL! YOU ROCK! YOU ARE AWESOME!
So well put! So thoughtful...and so TRUE!
I am so blown away and happy!
Say it like it is, sister. And with such grace!
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
It6 strikes me, though, that the Mormons are probably more Christian than, say, inspired by Eastern religion, simply because they are a homegrown American religion, and so drew from the Christian heritage there. Belief wise, though, they are far removed from Christianity.
I actually used to know someone who had been brought up Mormon,then officially excommunicated when the Church found out he was gay - now that's something else they share with much of the rest of Christianity.
The largest growth for the Mormons in Britain cane during the time of the Osmonds. I distinctly recall an eleven year old friend become a Mormon at around that time.I don't think her parents had a clue what the church she went to believed!
And I do have a book of Mormon. Brought to me by two stunningly handsome young men when I lived in Huddersfield, who I gave a glass of milk to and who told me all about what they believed
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Bottom line, Mormon's aren't trying to go legit, just trying to appear legit. Until they jettison all their crazy doctrines that contradict the creeds and councils, they will not be legit.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
Rossweisse, if you were a man, I would stalk you, but since I am 100% straight, I will applaud you.
<clap! clap! clap!>
YOU GO GIRL! YOU ROCK! YOU ARE AWESOME!
So well put! So thoughtful...and so TRUE!
I am so blown away and happy!
Say it like it is, sister. And with such grace!
Oh, Duchess! THANK you! I feel MUCH better than I did this morning, thanks to your wonderful, affirming post. I'm 100% straight, too, but hugs back atcha!
(Valkyries, even wannabe valks, HAVE to tell the truth!)
Mormons like to share their "testimonies" with us "gentiles" -- it's a bit like American Indians counting coup in the old days -- and I have a testimony of my own: I prayed the "prayer of Moroni," and I received an answer: Mormonism is NOT of God, but of a very flawed human being. Deo, once again, gratias.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Bottom line, Mormon's aren't trying to go legit, just trying to appear legit. Until they jettison all their crazy doctrines that contradict the creeds and councils, they will not be legit.
Amen, amen, ahhhhhhh-men.
They do clean up their act, when forced to -- it's not that long ago that they decided that Negroes weren't really fighting on Satan's side in the (genuine) Big War -- but mostly they try to sweep their uglier beliefs under the rug, and hope that starry-eyed "burning in the bosom" converts won't notice.
And they never take anyone off the official books unless forced to do so -- and then they make a big deal about "excommunicating." Faugh.
Rossweisse // who thinks that marketing should not be an element in the religious experience
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
[QUOTE]... and yet it claims to be the only REAL Christianity. I don't think I'd have nearly the problem with Mormonism if they would simply admit that this is a whole different ball game and not pretend to be "Christians, just like you," as the missionary laddies are taught to put it.
Is it not worth bearing in mind, though, that if you take this paragraph and replace "mormon" and "christian" with, respectively, "christian" and "jew", you'd have a pretty good description of what happened in our own first century as a new religion?
Point being: whilst I rather agree that the LDS and orthodox Christianity are not really the same religion; there is an (imperfect) analogy to be drawn between the relationship of judaism and christianity, on the one hand, and christianity and "restoration gospel" Churches (of which the LDS is *not* the only one), on the other. There is undoubtedly a kinship.
Other Point being: no matter who's "right" or "wrong", it wouldn't do us orthodox Christians a bit of harm to try to recall how it felt for our forebears to be excluded from the religion they reckoned they were bringing to fruition through new revelation.
For a very long time, we orthodox Christians tried to be "good Jews" - we wanted to be little more than the True Jewish sect - and when that didn't pan out (we were persecuted for it by Jew and Roman alike), we then tried to be the "new Israel" ... an idea that, if not exactly foremost in our day-to-day exercise of theology, is still very much around.
It may not make us Jews. But there is a distinct relatedness - sociologically, historically, and doctrinally - and for us Christians at least even a certain dependence. It's also noteworthy that we would undoubtedly claim that there exists a distinct continuity between the two religions - a claim that some Jews might recognise, whilst others would not.
By the same token, Mormons and other restoration gospel Churches exist in a similar relationship with orthodox Christian Churches. As I say, it's not a perfect analogy. But it will do.
I think it's unfortunate that we feel the need to fight over the name "Christian" -- in that whilst I think they are a different religion, they are also "Christian", too, after a certain fashion. (In the same sense as saying that we Christians still fall into the general category of Yahweh-worship, even though it's blasphemy in some other religions to suggest that he could or would have a son.)
Of course, Rossweise is right: they aren't Christians "just like us". And I'm not convinced they do their own faith any favours by saying such things. (Not all Mormons do, however.) But they are, in some sense, Christians "not just like us". (As opposed to, say, Wiccans or Buddhists or Elvis-worshippers "not just like us".)
Either way, I'm not sure it's productive for anyone, mormon or orthodox, to stick their thumb on their nose and go "nyah, nyah, nyah, we're Christian and you're not". That just obscures the issues ... not least because of the hard feelings it causes on *both* sides. (witness some of the attitudes displayed on this thread -- and don't forget, as recently as the 20th Century, we christians generally were still punishing the Jews for, amongst other things, not letting Us or Our Messiah into Their club.)
By all means, let's talk about the differences in epistemology (of which there are many), but provided we all recognise those differences, let's get away from who's Christian and who's not.
Hell, you could call me a Duck-billed Platypus for all I care. Just as long as you recognise I'm a Trinitarian.
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
Many lies have an element of truth. That is why people believe them. Many cults have an element of Christianity. That is why people are drawn to them.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Many lies have an element of truth. That is why people believe them. Many cults have an element of Christianity. That is why people are drawn to them.
jeez-louise, why does it automatically have to be a "cult", just because it's not orthodox Christianity?
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
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doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Many cults have an element of Christianity. That is why people are drawn to them.
Besides which ... people are drawn to cults because of all kinds of deep-seated psycho-social needs and problems that they reckon the cult answers. but that's true of pseudo-Buddhist, pseudo-Jewish, pseudo-Islamic, and UFO cults as well.
has precious little to do with whether it has an element of Christianity.
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
...Other Point being: no matter who's "right" or "wrong", it wouldn't do us orthodox Christians a bit of harm to try to recall how it felt for our forebears to be excluded from the religion they reckoned they were bringing to fruition through new revelation. ...
...By all means, let's talk about the differences in epistemology (of which there are many), but provided we all recognise those differences, let's get away from who's Christian and who's not....
I see your point, but Mormonism is such an overt perversion of Christianity that I CAN'T let the label go. Their Jesus is a liar: He told his disciples that his Church would endure, but theirs immediately let it go for 1,800 years. What kind of hateful deity is that?
Their claim to be Christian really is a marketing thing: they sucker people in with the warm-fuzzy-family group-hug you'll-all-be-together-in-heaven thing, and downplay the more, shall we say, startling aspects of their belief system. In my experience, most converts don't really know what they've signed onto.
The other thing to remember is that Mormonism really does see (true) Christianity as something to be overcome. All this business about insinuating their way into the NCC is just protective coloration, an institutional version of the "friendshipping" they practice on their "gentile" colleagues and neighbors.
Mormonism considers Christianity an "abomination," as stated in the first post in this thread. I, for one, am not inclined to let them play Humpty Dumpty from "Through the Looking-Glass" and let them redefine what words mean to suit their own purposes -- at least not without a challenge!
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
<snip!>
Either way, I'm not sure it's productive for anyone, mormon or orthodox, to stick their thumb on their nose and go "nyah, nyah, nyah, we're Christian and you're not". That just obscures the issues ... not least because of the hard feelings it causes on *both* sides. (witness some of the attitudes displayed on this thread -- and don't forget, as recently as the 20th Century, we christians generally were still punishing the Jews for, amongst other things, not letting Us or Our Messiah into Their club.)
Brother Texas.Veggie, this is well-meaning-crack-pipe-blowing-smoke.
You are saying Mormons are Christians (take a look, undercover man is a Mormon! Both men look very handsome and look very young for their age ... interesting).
"Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations, which Joseph Smith said were, "all wrong ... all their creeds were an admonition in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19)." Are Mormons Christians?
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
"One question that I would ask all Mormons is this: "If I accept you as a Christian, will you accept me as a Mormon?" Would you accept me as a Mormon if I reject Joseph Smith and all the LDS prophets as being prophets of God. If I do not believe in the Book of Mormon or the LDS Scriptures, baptisms for the dead, the temple endowments, the LDS gospel, would you accept me as a Mormon? The answer is obviously, you would not. In like manner, when Mormonism denies the Bible and every Christian doctrine do you think that Biblical Christians should accept Mormons as Christians? Again the answer is very obvious, no we will not. You cannot legitimately claim to be Christians when you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches and what a true Christian believes."
(pls click on link "Are Mormons Christians?" Above to see this...thx)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
Duchess,
The second link you provided comes from a site which also "warns" its readers to:
quote:
Beware of Catholicism with its false Christ, its false gospel, and its false spirit. And don't be fooled by the biblical terms and evangelization programs being promoted by some Catholic groups. Catholicism knows nothing about the true Gospel and Bible evangelism.
Elsewhere, the author offers the kind information that:
quote:
Many people don't know anything about Catholicism. They may believe that there is not that much difference between "Catholic Ritual and Tradition" and "Grace by Faith". Unless these people are informed, they may accept the Roman Catholics as fellow Christians and deny them the true gospel by not witnessing to them. There is a twofold reason for my articles on Catholicism. To witness to Catholics and prove to evangelicals that Catholics are lost. It is worth the effort.
As I said before, I don't see Mormonism as orthodox in its Christianity - and I think it's a lot further "out there" in its errors than most Christian groups I disagree with. But the fact that those that call it non-Christian are also those who most frequently label my own Church a "cult" and "un/non-Christian" makes me a little wary about following their lead and doing the same to Mormons.
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
Either way, I'm not sure it's productive for anyone, mormon or orthodox, to stick their thumb on their nose and go "nyah, nyah, nyah, we're Christian and you're not". That just obscures the issues ... not least because of the hard feelings it causes on *both* sides. (witness some of the attitudes displayed on this thread -- and don't forget, as recently as the 20th Century, we christians generally were still punishing the Jews for, amongst other things, not letting Us or Our Messiah into Their club.)
By all means, let's talk about the differences in epistemology (of which there are many), but provided we all recognise those differences, let's get away from who's Christian and who's not.
It is not, in my opinion, helpful to bury our heads in the sand and think to ourselves "It doesn't matter what we beleive, we are all going ot heaven anyway." That.is.not.going.to.happen. The scriptures emphasize this fact. For example:
John 14
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
"The issue" is that only Christians are going to heaven, so we need to be able to discern incorrect religions so that we can convert their followers to Christianity.
Matthew 7:
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
Duchess, that was quite the propaganda piece in that NJ paper. But I didn't find anything in this particular section with which to disagree:
quote:
...Are Mormons Christian? The question was taken up by Father Richard John Neuhaus, editor of First Things, the Journal of Religion and Public Life.
In an essay published in March 2000, Neuhaus said the issue may point to future change within the Church of Jesus Christ.
While it is a Christian derivative, he wrote, the church "is in radical discontinuity with historical Christianity." ...
JL, just because some people with no sense of history or theology call the Church of Rome a "cult" (that's hard to believe, but I know that it happens) is no reason to deny that Mormonism is one. It has all the (you should excuse the expression) stigmata: the complete control over its members' lives (virtually every evening and weekend is completely taken up with church-dictated activities; you can't experience the most important elements of religious life without a "temple recommend" from a "bishop" who scrutinizes every aspect of your personal life and then judges you), an intense focus on money (you must pay the church 10% of your income, provable from your tax returns, or -- no temple recommend), lots of secret rites, and a willingness to lie to potential converts about actual beliefs and practices (excused as "milk before meat" -- if people could see that stuff before converting, the sign-on rate would be much smaller), the tendency to prey on young people at vulnerable points in their lives.
Christians have no secret rituals; everything we do is open to all observers. It is absurd to call any legitimate branch of Catholicism a cult; it is a bit naive to say that Mormonism is not one.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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brodavid
Shipmate
# 460
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Posted
To say that Mormonism is merely another Christian denomination shows a gross ignorance of their origin, beliefs, and history. Rossweisse has outlined the major differences between Mormon teachings and biblical doctrine quite well, so I won't re-hash. The bottom line is that The Bible teaches that those who trust Jesus by faith will receive an eternal place with God as a gift of His grace; Mormonism teaches that those who trust Jesus, keep all the right commandments, and participate in all the proper ceremonies will earn for their works an eternal place as gods. These two positions cannot be reconciled, and it is wishful thinking, at best, to pretend that they can.
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Brodavid
"Prayer can do anything that God can do."
- E.M. Bounds
Posts: 702 | From: Mississippi, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I think that my sympathies are with Jesuitical Lad and Texas Veggie in this particular debate. As I understand it the earliest Christian confession is 'Jesus is Lord'. Now I think that this is a starting point - I'm not a theological minimalist and I think that Christian doctrine as it has developed is an unpacking and interpretation of that confession - but I think that the fact that LDS can share that confession gives them a right to be called Christian, even if I do think that many of their views are heretical.
I don't, to be honest, think that much is achieved going through LDS statements and dragging out the disreputable bits. It is undoubtedly the case that the LDS has a racist past, well so do most christian churches. The doctrine that Jesus was the devils brother seems to be cited to imply that LDS are one step away from diabolism. However this seems to me to be merely a part of their Arianism - how sinister would it be if someone said that the Archangel Michael was the devil's brother? One can point to embarassing statements to the effect that all Christians are wrong. However one can doubtless find equally embarassing statements by Anglicans and Roman Catholics in the sixteenth century about the relative status of each other's churches.
My point is not, that I think that there is no difference between orthodox Christianity and LDS doctrine. I think that there are a number of important distinctions. However, I do think that it would be better to debate these distinctions rationally and calmly and to try and understand each other's positions. Perhaps we could even do something as breath takingly rational as open up a dialogue.
I'm not sure that the fear and anger which seems to be emanating from this thread is a particularly good advertisement for orthodox Christianity. Magna est veritas and all that.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
You are saying Mormons are Christians
Might be worth repeating this:
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
whilst I rather agree that the LDS and orthodox Christianity are not really the same religion; there is an (imperfect) analogy to be drawn between the relationship of judaism and christianity, on the one hand, and christianity and "restoration gospel" Churches (of which the LDS is *not* the only one), on the other. There is undoubtedly a kinship. [/QB]
you will note that "kinship" does not mean "interchangeable" or "synonymous". there is kinship between Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. there is also kinship between orthodox Christianity and Mormonism. The same kind of progenitor-progeny kinship that exists between Judaism and Christianity.
To say so, though, is not to say they're the same thing ... at least not any more so than to say that Judaism and Christianity are the same thing.
You will also note that I then went on to agree with Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
Of course, Rossweise is right: they aren't Christians "just like us". And I'm not convinced they do their own faith any favours by saying such things.
I would not, for example, encourage or condone Mormon membership in the NCC. There's a reason we don't accept their baptisms as valid nor do they accept ours.
I merely went on to qualify that statement by saying that ...
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
they are, in some sense, Christians "not just like us".
... as were, for example, the Gnostic and Montanist sects of the first few centuries AD.
The scholarly term for such a religion is a "Christian deviation". Again, the point is precisely that it is not synonymous with the legitimate boundaries of orthodox Christianity, but that a pattern of derivation can be clearly demonstrated.
My argument was not that Mormons are Christians in the same sense that Trinitarians are. My argument was mainly about Christians having a lack of charity towards them -- bandying about, as we tend to do, terms like "cult", "liars", "false prophets", "weirdos", and so forth.
There was a time when our own socio-religious progenitors said precisely the same sorts of things about us.
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
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doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
[QUOTE]this is well-meaning-crack-pipe-blowing-smoke.[/URL]
... and another thing: I was trying to raise a serious few points, and i'd appreciate it if you'd keep comments like this one above in Hell, where they belong. Last I checked, this thread had been moved to Purgatory.
![[Flaming]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
Last I checked, this thread had been moved to Purgatory.
Perhaps, then it should get moved back to Hell.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
Sharkshooter,
What beliefs must a group profess in order to be deemed "Christian"?
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I don't think anyone here is saying that Mormons are 'Christian' per se. But they undoubtedly spring from a 'Christian' culture and use some Christian references - so there is clearly some sort of relationship there.
I agree about the use of the term 'cult'. I think the social scientific definition of cult which refers to structures and abuse of power is acceptable, just about, but to diss any philosophy one doesn't like as 'a cult'based purely on doctrinal difference is dangerous. It also assumes there is an absolute from which such deviation can be judged, and groups like the Reachout Trust constantly do this, using their own definition of orthodoxy as the basis by which to judge others 'cultism'.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
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Posted
Just out of curiosity ...
Hands up, who here has actually read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price? Whole thing, right the way through.
Hands up, who here has actually sat through (or even read through) the entire set of Mormon missionary discussions with real missionaries?
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Well, while I appreciate your liking of my minty freshness, I'm still very concerned that the tone of the thread (even after being moved to Purgatory) risks stepping over the Ship's Ten Commandments line... it's one thing to say "I believe Mormon theology is untrue," and another entirely -- when we have at least one Shipmate here who is a Mormon -- to use a lot of "loaded" words and phrases -- Joseph Smith was not merely incorrect, he "stole the "British Israelites" and Indians-as-Hebrews bits" -- Mormons don't really consider themselves (the only true, or the truest, or some other thing) Christians, they just "pretend to be ... as the missionary laddies are taught to put it" -- "just trying to appear legit" -- "They do clean up their act, They do clean up their act, when forced to " -- "mostly they try to sweep their uglier beliefs under the rug" -- Sharkshooter's comments about "lies" and "cults" -- "an overt perversion" -- "they sucker people in" -- etc., etc.
Did I mention that - 1. This thread is in Purgatory now and
- 2. We have at least one adherent -- who thus far has conducted himself very gracefully under these sorts of statements -- as a Shipmate?
And ""The issue" is that only Christians are going to heaven, so we need to be able to discern incorrect religions so that we can convert their followers to Christianity." ... Well. Goodness, I'm not even sure how to respond to that, other than to place it side-by-side with the comments putting down Mormons for trying to "convert people." Maybe -- gosh, who would have thought? -- just maybe -- they're for the most part sincere people who are trying to pass on what they understand the Gospel to be so that, as they understand Him, they can reach people for Christ. I do think their beliefs about Him are often very mistaken -- but then, I think that about a lot of groups who are generally regarded as more "within the Christian fold" -- up to and including wondering about their salvation. And I wrestled with it and wrestled with it and decided that if Denomination X and Denomination Y and Denomination Z had people who were trying to follow and trust this weird Galilean from 2000 years ago as, in some sense, their Saviour and Lord, who died to, in some sense, reconcile them to God, whether they understood Him as much as I believe I and my (C.S. Lewis/G.K. Chesterton-ish Anglo-Catholic) theology do, well, then, why should I expect detailed knowledge of absolutely correct theology to be the Most Important Bit? Which itself would make my beliefs into some sort of semi-Gnostic Mystery religion, i.e., that one has to have special knowledge in order to Get Into Heaven. Yet I think we all tend to believe that, if for instance in the second or third century, some Pagan heard some bit of the Gospel from some passing missionary and didn't understand all of it, but resolved to trust "Jesus, the Son of God" to save him via His death somehow, and tried to do what was right for His sake, that this guy would probably be "saved," even if he didn't understand the Trinity very well. And if he could be saved and be considered a "Christian," then why couldn't someone in the present day without that bit of knowledge? I do also recall the parable of the sheep and the goats, in which doctrinal knowledge is not treated as The Most Important Thing -- though I do think it is A Very Important Thing -- just not THE Most Important.
But I'm digressing. It's probably been done to death on another thread anyway, and there's pretty wide variance on the Ship regarding "how do we get into Heaven?" and "Who's a real Christian?"
As for "Perhaps, then it should get moved back to Hell," why? Isn't a reasoned discussion a better way to approach people we don't agree with?
We're really not usually like this, Barmint. And, as usual, the irony that The Weirdest Guy on the Ship™ (you'll find out eventually, never fear -- or, perhaps, be very, very afraid) feels more connection with the new Mormon Shipmate does not escape me in the least...
David
very weird™ orthodox guy
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
[QB]Duchess,
The second link you provided comes from a site which also "warns" its readers to
[QUOTE]Beware of Catholicism with its false Christ, its false gospel, and its false spirit. <snip!>.
I apologize for not researching the whole site thouroughly before posting it. I posted the Mormon tidbit without looking at the letter to my RC friend, Dobson is wrong about Homosexuals...and the Harry Potter essay (plus others). I regret linking to this site...however Ro above did a fine job explaining that doesn't invalidate the truth in the Mormon statements in the link I posted..
Texas.Veggie, I am sorry for the calling your analogy crack-smoking. Please accept my apology, I thought you knew me enough by now to take a little ribbing, I did not think through enough how it might come across.
I do find your statements rather ambigious...they are rather murky for me. I guess you are saying we should all not judge if Mormons are Christians or not since Protestants went through the Reformation and were judge not to Christians? That is my guess. This is a very different situation and I do not think that blanket statement is something I agree with.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
Just out of curiosity ...
Hands up, who here has actually read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price? Whole thing, right the way through.
Hands up, who here has actually sat through (or even read through) the entire set of Mormon missionary discussions with real missionaries?
I have the Book of Mormon but have not read it all the way through due to extreme boredom. I have discussed issues with "real missionaries" but nobody has wanted to discuss things much further. I have driven away sisters of the LDS church by telling them "what I object to is that your church believes Jesus is Satan's brother and that the Heavenly Mother and Father had spirit children...". The other experience was a young lad who tried to pick debates with me at work but was unable to really know his own Theology enough to make much headway. He demanded I go visit a group of Missionary friends of his to "discuss my disilliusionment" and I declined the offer due to time constraints and the pushiness of the young lad. The young lad told me "You would make such a good little Mormon girl!" I don't know if this was a compliment or not... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
<snip>
We're really not usually like this, Barmint.
Oh? Jump into the shoes of an (almost)-fundamemtalistic, conservative, Calvinistic, inerrentistic, sola-scriptural young-earth creationist. It isn't easy being there either.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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doctor-frog
small and green
# 2860
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
Texas.Veggie, I am sorry for the calling your analogy crack-smoking. Please accept my apology, I thought you knew me enough by now to take a little ribbing, I did not think through enough how it might come across..
'salright. I've been a bit cranky today, anyway. some other day, and I probably wouldn't have taken it wrong. sorry.
Posts: 981 | From: UK | Registered: May 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Oh? Jump into the shoes of an (almost)-fundamemtalistic, conservative, Calvinistic, inerrentistic, sola-scriptural young-earth creationist. It isn't easy being there either.
An excellent reason to practice tolerance and bridge-building mutual understanding, methinks.
And some people, you may notice, have jumped in on the "Sophisticated Fundamentalists" thread in defence of the personal integrity of "young-earth creationsists," even though again that doesn't mean we agree with them. And, I am pleased to note, things seem to have calmed down a bit by the third page of that thread, at least somewhat. There are still jibes back and forth but people are making the point that believing in something which others don't agree with does not make one a deliberate liar.
"Tolerance" does not mean "agreement." "Building bridges" assumes that there is, in fact, a gulf. There's a difference between being courteous in one's debating style and nodding in acceptance with whatever one's opponent says -- I'm not remotely suggesting that we do that, whatever positions we hold.
David
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
I have the Book of Mormon but have not read it all the way through due to extreme boredom.
duchess, I had that problem, too. Plus (I'm sorry to confess) periodic fits of the giggles at some of the stuff that seemed especially far-fetched.
We are all adult reasoners here, I think we are perfectly capable of talking about whether Mormonism falls within or without the scope of small-o-orthodox Christianity, and separating that from their practices and from what any individual Mormon may believe.
A perusal of the materials available at www.lds.org, as official a collection of things as one could wish, makes it clear that (and by the way, what's up with all the articles on food storage?? -- I don't seem to recall too many of these in my Anglican Digest) women are to be considered subordinate to men, who may hold the "Aaronic Priesthood", though their role as mothers is "near divine". That's as far as I've gotten.
On this website long ago, I remember someone writing that it is proper to consider Mormonism a Heresy, in the classical sense of the word. That is, it has Christian trappings, but is not in keeping with the small-o orthodox views of Christianity, or even of non-creedal Christiansm come to think of it.
quote:
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
heresy
SYLLABICATION: her·e·sy
PRONUNCIATION: hr-s
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. her·e·sies
1a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member. b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine. 2a. A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science. b. Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English heresie, from Old French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, a choosing, faction, from haireisthai, to choose, middle voice of hairein, to take.
(I'd also add a defition; c) amusing and common mispelling of "hearsay" guaranteed to annoy law professors, but that's beside the point)
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
First we're not nice enough for Hell. Then we're not PC enough for Purgatory. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I thought I knew who the hosts were, but perhaps I have lost track.
On to the topic...
Is it fair to define a heretical branch of Christianity as one which originated in the Church, but has adopted beliefs which are contrary to the generally accepted standard? By this definition, LDS fits into the category.
The problem comes when we try to classify LDS as a "Christian church" rather than a "heretical offshoot of Christianity". To do the former is to deceive by way of omission, in my opinion.
scot
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
...The doctrine that Jesus was the devils brother seems to be cited to imply that LDS are one step away from diabolism....
No, no, not at all -- I don't think they're "diabolical," or even a couple of steps from it. I cited that as one evidence of how far they are from Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
...My point is not, that I think that there is no difference between orthodox Christianity and LDS doctrine. I think that there are a number of important distinctions. However, I do think that it would be better to debate these distinctions rationally and calmly and to try and understand each other's positions. Perhaps we could even do something as breath takingly rational as open up a dialogue.
As someone who was a target for Mormon missionaries as an adolescent, and someone who has encountered them numerous times since, I don't think real "dialogue" is possible with most Mormons who are trying to win converts. The "milk before meat" business allows them to bend the truth and obfuscate when conversing with "gentiles."
I say this not out of fear 'n loathing, but out of long experience. Although I objected to this thread being arbitrarily booted out of Hell, I am attempting to stay within the guidelines even while continuing to state what I think is important.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
... it's one thing to say "I believe Mormon theology is untrue," and another entirely... (to say) Joseph Smith was not merely incorrect, he "stole the "British Israelites" and Indians-as-Hebrews bits" -- Mormons don't really consider themselves (the only true, or the truest, or some other thing) Christians, they just "pretend to be ...
Now, Chast -- I think you're taking my comments out of context. The Smith remark about "stealing" those ideas was in contrast to saying that he'd invented the rest of it. And I didn't say that they don't consider themselves Christians -- I said that they pretend to be "Christians just like you," when there is no way in the world that they could believe such a thing.
I thought this thread belonged in Hell not so that we could behave like savages, but so that we could have an honest, open discussion without getting called on the carpet for being too honest. Surely there's room somewhere for that?
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by texas.veggie:
Just out of curiosity ...
Hands up, who here has actually read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price? Whole thing, right the way through.
Hands up, who here has actually sat through (or even read through) the entire set of Mormon missionary discussions with real missionaries?
I have. I even reread the BofM as an adult, to check out my original reactions as a teenager.
Without wanting to bore you with my personal experiences, when I was in high school I was targeted by Mormon missionaries. (A friend converted and wanted to take me along with her.) They apparently thought I was a hot prospect, because I actually DID read everything they gave me (most people don't).
Although I was only 16, they started pressuring me to schedule my baptism from our second meeting, even before I'd been to a single service or managed to read more than a fraction of what they'd given me. When I pointed out that I was underage and that my parents would certainly object, they urged me to do it anyway, in a contrast to their supposed pro-family stance.
Anyway, I finally did read all of it, and I did pray the famous "Prayer of Moroni," and I did get an answer. But it was not the answer they expected: as mentioned earlier, the answer was that it was not of God, but of a man, and a particularly flawed man at that. When I told the missionaries, their attitudes changed completely and frighteningly. It was as if they'd been wearing masks and dropped them. They told me publicly that I was listening to the Devil, that I would burn in a lake of fire for all eternity because I had rejected God's truth, and a lot of other particulars, all of them unpleasant.
If you have never been a 16-year-old girl, completely unsure of herself with men, getting a lot of flattering attention in one moment and damned eternally in the next as an apostate (and I never even signed on!), you probably won't understand how I felt. And I realize that personal experience doesn't seem to carry a lot of weight on this board. But it was the most devastating thing ever to happen to me up to that time.
About ten years later I happened on a book about cults, and I recognized my experiences as if someone had taken notes at my elbow: the preying on unsure kids, the heavy pressure, the smiley friendliness that turns to vicious disapproval, the control. It's no doubt very easy for anyone who has not lived through the experience to discount it, but I think that's a mistake.
Okay, I'll shut up now.
Rossweisse // who has in fact done the reading, and then some
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
...The problem comes when we try to classify LDS as a "Christian church" rather than a "heretical offshoot of Christianity". To do the former is to deceive by way of omission, in my opinion.
I agree wholeheartedly, Scot. Thank you.
(Okay, I didn't shut up yet. I'm working on it.)
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
[QBI think you're taking my comments out of context. The Smith remark about "stealing" those ideas was in contrast to saying that he'd invented the rest of it. And I didn't say that they don't consider themselves Christians -- I said that they pretend to be "Christians just like you," when there is no way in the world that they could believe such a thing.
I thought this thread belonged in Hell not so that we could behave like savages, but so that we could have an honest, open discussion without getting called on the carpet for being too honest. Surely there's room somewhere for that?[/QB]
But re "stealing," do we usually use that word in neutral contexts? If one church learnt a doctrine (true or not) from another, would we normally use the word "stealing"? Unless we're deliberately baiting someone, would we say that Christianity "stole" monotheism from Judaism? (I've known people who say things like that, and it is never meant in a bridge-building way.) And my gripe is not with the "Christians" vs. "Christians just like you" (which I abbreviated in the interest of space), but with the word pretend. It's phrases like "they sucker people in" which -- as we have at least one Mormon Shipmate who is part of this discussion -- seem inappropriate to me. I mean, for goodness' sake, words like "insinuating," "perversion," and "hateful," in one post alone?
Oh, and Purgatory is not meant to be "PC," Scot -- just "courteous." And no one as far as I can tell is saying that debating about whether Mormon teaching is heretical, by orthodox Christian standards, is a problem -- it's the tone of the argument. One can even argue that something is mistaken without impugning the motives of its believers. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
David
pitiful, mewling orthodox guy
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
About ten years later I happened on a book about cults, and I recognized my experiences as if someone had taken notes at my elbow: the preying on unsure kids, the heavy pressure, the smiley friendliness that turns to vicious disapproval, the control. It's no doubt very easy for anyone who has not lived through the experience to discount it, but I think that's a mistake.
But the thing is -- people with more orthodox theology have also practiced "the preying on unsure kids, the heavy pressure, the smiley friendliness that turns to vicious disapproval, the control." It's not an intrinsic function of believing in the Law of Eternal Progression. I'd even venture to say that in different times and places, every church/denomination has practiced these things -- or worse. (Quite possibly I'd say that any group, religious or otherwise, that has been around for any length of time, has done things like this.) It doesn't prove, or disprove, doctrines at all -- and it certainly doesn't mean that any given member of a given group must believe that actions taken by other members is right.
David
this space for rent
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
...And my gripe is not with the "Christians" vs. "Christians just like you" (which I abbreviated in the interest of space), but with the word pretend....
But when a Mormon missionary says that he's "a Christian, just like you" he IS pretending, because he knows full well he isn't. Yes, he thinks he's a Christian -- a member of the only TRUE Christian Church -- but he doesn't think he's part of an "abomination," which, in the view of Mormonism, is what the rest of us are. I know it's all part of the marketing effort, but I don't think it can be excused.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
...It doesn't prove, or disprove, doctrines at all -- and it certainly doesn't mean that any given member of a given group must believe that actions taken by other members is right. this space for rent
I've read too much (their own handbook for missionaries, for starters) to think they don't think it's right.
But I'm not sure we're getting anywhere with this discussion. I think we shall simply have to disagree on this one, David -- courteously, lovingly -- but if you're ever interested in knowing more about Mormonism and its methods of proselytizing, I will be happy to point you toward some helpful sites. (And I say that not to be sarcastic or to imply that you are in some way ignorant, but in all sincerity. I hope you will take it in that spirit.)
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Rossweisse // who lived it
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Equinas
Shipmate
# 2907
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
[QUOTE] But the thing is -- people with more orthodox theology have also practiced "the preying on unsure kids, the heavy pressure, the smiley friendliness that turns to vicious disapproval, the control."
And when they behave that way, they are being cult-like.
Having been thusly assaulted by my JW aunt at the advanced age of 9, I will admit it rachets up the heat of my reaction to quasi-Christian (dare I say it?)cults. Rossweisse indicates that her continued experience has borne out her earlier experience, as mine largely has with JW's.
And I also think this thread was better placed in Hell.
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Linda
Posts: 567 | From: Deep South, USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
host mode
quote:
And I also think this thread was better placed in Hell.
After careful consideration of the OP and seeing that the thread was not bedding down well into Purgatory, so do we. We've decided to shift it back to Hell.
If people want to have a Purgatorial discussion of what Mormons believe then they are welcome to start a new thread.
For the rest - the rules are about to change again - please check the Hell guidelines before re-engaging (remembering that we have a Mormon shipmate).
Thank you
Louise
host mode off
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
I have deleted the previous hellish iteration of this thread that was locked and sinking into blessed oblivion.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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St. Sebastian
Staggering ever onward
# 312
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Posted
I suppose we've driven Barmint away (at least this thread). ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I don't see much point in the "they are Christians they are not" debate, especially among our non-Morman selves. It's not like anyone is likely to change their minds on that. It would be much more interesting to discuss the similarities and divergences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity (Barmint, if you're still around, want to be the Defender of the Faith? )rather than the failings of individual Mormons (or even the institutional failings of the LDS Church, since what Church doesn't have those?). I have a Morman friend (convert from Catholicism, which boggles my mind) and we used to "argue" theology. We never got mad, since neither of us was aiming to convert the other (though teasingly I would call her a raging heretic and she would call me a heathen). We would just debate the why's and wherefores of believing A over B. Of course, we would always reach a place where we didn't have enough common ground to continue (for instance, nothing Joseph Smith said carries any weight with me but she, of course, sees him as a Prophet of God). I did get her on "who created God, then?" thing. To me, worshipping a created being is a form of idolatry. You should worship whatever created that being (or whatever created the being that created that being etc etc ad infinitum). She just said "we haven't been given revelation on that" which pretty much closed that line of discussion. Where was I going with this? Oh forget it. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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St. Seb
In Spite of Everything: Yes.
Posts: 962 | From: Burlington, North Carolina | Registered: May 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Just as a somewhat hostly warning to wannabe posters: read the thread (yes, the Whole Damn Thread) before posting if you aren't familiar with the arguments previously posited. If the debate (however Hellish) becomes circular, I'm sending the whole shebang to Dead Horses. Or maybe I'll just lock the damn thing. Nothing's interested me here since the underwear.
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
to discuss the similarities and divergences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity (Barmint, if you're still around, want to be the Defender of the Faith?
If anyone wants to start a thread aimed at discussing this within the constraints of Purgatory - courteous debate, back up what you say, no throwing around stuff like 'crazy' 'lies' or 'cult' (unless you're going to very carefully support that with evidence), then feel free to do so in Purg.
Barmint, if you're still around and want to start such a thread in Purg, feel free. This one was shifted because it was judged to be on too 'hellish' a tack for such a discussion to get properly on its feet.
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Just as a somewhat hostly warning to wannabe posters: read the thread (yes, the Whole Damn Thread) before posting if you aren't familiar with the arguments previously posited. If the debate (however Hellish) becomes circular, I'm sending the whole shebang to Dead Horses. Or maybe I'll just lock the damn thing. Nothing's interested me here since the underwear.
1) AMEN...[peon-non-host-peanut-galley]Read the whole thread, even if you wish not to and dismiss it by saying "well, I didn't read the whole thread but..." ARGGHGH!!! [/peon-non-hostie-peanut gallery]
2)[rant] Tomby, that underwear thing is just plain WRONG. So wrong! NO MORE UndERwEAr discussion men...I am cracking up...no-no-nope...nada..zip...zilch [/rant]
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
An invitation from the duchess....
Barmit, I challenge you to go through all the things I posted and respond to them. This is an opportunity for you to shed some light, dude, not something to shy away from. Since 2 of my good friends are Mormon, I really honestly would like to know your thoughts on these topics. Thx.
PS: I mean the above sincerely cross my heart.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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