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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: What is the way of salvation?
Jim Powell

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Tony,Charles.
Read Ephesians2:8and 9 many have realised from just this one passage that salvation is faith alone in Christ alone.Not a process as some think.
All the best Jim

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Kelly

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Freddy,

In order for man to be in Heaven with God, he must have God's perfection. Man is not perfect like God, man is imperfect and inherently evil. Man has proven his wickedness by his inability to keep the commandments & laws set forth by a Just & Holy God.

Man needs a mediator. A "go-between"...that mediator is Jesus Christ, who, being the only God-Man, is equal to God & man. By faith in the One Man who was perfect & kept every point of the law, we receive His righteousness.

We do not keep our salvation by trying to keep the commandments after we believe in Christ, Christ has already finished the work of salvation on His own at the Cross, without any help from man.

I do not agree with your statement Freddy about the commandments not being an all or nothing deal. The Bible states that if a person breaks any point of the law, he/she has broken all of the law.

Had Christ commited just 1 sin, any sin, our salvation would have been lost. If Adam had never sinned in the garden, he & Eve would still be there today, in perfect environment & fellowship with God.


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Jim Powell

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Kelly,
Thanks for of your answers they are a great encouragement to me.
We may have to walk the plank for these statements.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Dave Walker

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Wibblethorpe.
Repent means to change ones mind about Christ and believe in him,hopefully deeds will follow.
All the best Jim.

Hopefully? Doesn't the Bible say definitely - the proof that the repentance is real?

W

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Cartoon blog / @davewalker


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Jim Powell

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Wibblethorpe,
Christians still have freewill,David murdered the Hittite after an affair with this mans wife.
Good works depend upon the power of God the holy spirit controling our lives(an option)and the knowledge of the plan of G.od for the believer another option.

As christians we choose to be under the control of God the holy spirit(I do not refer to the tongues distortion)or our old sin nature,and live as the unsaved does(carnality)
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Jim Powell

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Dyfig,
Glad to see your you have a sense of humor!

I know Catholics who are saved,and some that are not {sadly to say}as in all churchs.
All the best Jim

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)


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Tony
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Jim,

I fully accept Ephesians vv8-9 - but why stop there, when verse 10 goes on to talk about the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do. Surely that is as relevant to this thread as saving faith?

I can't fault Kelly's posts either - so why do you think Kelly will have to walk the plank?

YIC

Tony


Posts: 32 | From: England | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dave Walker

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quote:
or... live as the unsaved does(carnality)

It's life Jim, but not as we know it...

(sorry)

Surely the proof of whether you're a Christian or not is whether it makes any difference to how you live... isn't it?

That's what Jesus, Paul and James seemed to think anyway.

W

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Cartoon blog / @davewalker


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Jim Powell

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Wibblethorpe,
Are all nice moral people saved?Of course not!
Are all cheats and liars unsaved? Of course not

The only issue is Faith in Christ,and some believed as children,and have no understanding that they are saved ,because of a lack of knowledge of the plan of God.

I have asked a bunch of people are you Christian? and they say no,But then they tell me that they do believe in Christ!
They do not know they are saved amazing aint it
All the best Jim Powell.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)


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Dave Walker

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OK, Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to tonight's fight...

In the Red corner, live from the ship of fools bulletin board, we have... Jim...

quote:
The only issue is Faith in Christ

In the Blue corner, live... OK... not that live... from Agrippa's palace (Acts 26) we have...The Apostle Paul...

quote:
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Take your pick.

W

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Cartoon blog / @davewalker


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Jim Powell

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Wibblethorpe,
Paul hopes that all Christians should live a life that reflects the grace of God in their lives.This is the will of God no question about it!!!!
You dont think that all believers are forced to do this do you? That would make us robots, with no freewill.
We do fail at times dont we,no one lives a life of sinless perfection.
Answer me this was David a believer?Yes of course he was but would you have thought so at the time of his failure.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Kelly

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Jim, thank-you for your kind words. You also Tony.

Wibblethorpe, I think you might be missing Jim's point? The deeds & works that Paul & James refer to are evidence of a perfect, alive, & working faith. This 'working faith' is one that produces results and fruit. This is the type of faith that results after saving faith. This 'perfect faith' is one that all Christians should strive for. But be patient, it doesn't happen overnight.

Let's face it; a brand new Christian doesn't possess the spiritual knowledge to produce fruit 'right off the bat'. This knowledge takes time to hone through trial & error & spiritual testing.

If a Christian is lazy or doesn't submit to God's will in their life, their faith won't grow & is dead. But these Chrisitans still have eternal life, because they trusted in Christ for their salvation.

Thank you,
Kelly


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rewboss
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Oh, cool debate, gang.

So this was a test was it? Fine, I can live with that.

Jim, what does "believing in Christ" mean, exactly? Please tell me, I'm dying to know.

--------------------
The latest from the world of rewboss


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Stowaway

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Am I late?

Is this an exam?

What was the question?


What is the way of salvation
A---is it faith alone in Christ?
B---is it faith plus works?
C---is it a system of works?

Hmmmmm....

Can I look at what you put?

Hold it this is a trick question isn't it?

I choose...
D---Jesus!

And the question should be Who is the way of salvation!

Did I win?

Do I get a gold star?

Can I go to heaven please sir?

Sir!?

--------------------
Warning: Mid-life crisis in progress


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Manx Taffy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:

I know Catholics who are saved,and some that are not {sadly to say}as in all churchs.

Jim
If I send you a short letter defining my beliefs and enclose a stamp addressed envolope please can you tell me if I am SAVED.

I was going to trust on the mercy of God and the benefit's of Christ's passion - but it would be nice to know right now and cut out all the hassle.


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Tony
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Well, Manx Taffy, perhaps I should do the same?

Although not a Catholic myself, I too would appreciate confirmation that I am saved.

I hadn't realised that Jim had placed a towel on the Judgement Seat!

YIC

Tony


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SteveTom
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Praise be amen hallelujah!

I see the light! It is as if scales have fallen from my eyes.

Bless you, Jim Powell!

Till now I always assumed that ignoring vast tracts of the Bible to prop up a half-baked theology was the way to blinkered ignorance and embarrassing drivel, but now I see that it is the only path to truth.

I believe!
Tell me, O humbly great teacher, what do I do now? Oh no, I don't have to do anything - you already said that.

I think I'll go and have a bath. Anyone up for a spot of fornication later?

--------------------
I saw a naked picture of me on the internet
Wearing Jesus's new snowshoes.
Well, golly gee.
- Eels


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BarbaraG
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
TC, Barbara.

Avoid Hell gain Heaven,perhaps the carrot and stick.By grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
All the best Jim


Jim,

I am a little puzzled by this response. Are you hereby correcting what you perceive to be lacking in my reply? Have I just scraped a pass, and you are trying to get me up to a B+? Or am I, in your opinion, short of the minimum required for salvation?

Not that it makes any difference, of course, because it's God's business, not yours.

Ugh! I get the feeling that I'm being dictated to. I thought this was a forum for debate, not for pontification.

BarbaraG

--------------------
still trying to make sense of the world


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SteveWal
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The only sermon illustration that I can remember is about two people who go up to the preacher and say, "Do we have to stop living in sin in order to get saved."

The preacher said, "No, get saved, and then let God work into your life to change you."

I think Jim's being rather unfairly stigmatised here. I think he's right to say that the faith comes first. Well, actually, the grace comes first. Then the faith is you accepting the grace. But I don't think you lose the grace just because you sin afterwards. We all do that; but we say "sorry" and we try to do better. Of course faith leads to works; but it doesn't lead to perfection.

As the song says, "I fall down, I get up again, ain't nothing going to get me down..."

--------------------
If they give you lined paper to write on, write across the lines. (Russian anarchist saying)


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DavidG
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Through the grace of God, as revealed in Jesus Christ, I know that I am loved. In the power of the Spirit I try to discern and follow her will for me - not always that successfully.

I'm sorry but I don't worry about being 'saved' or not.

DavidG


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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveTom:
Till now I always assumed that ignoring vast tracts of the Bible to prop up a half-baked theology was the way to blinkered ignorance and embarrassing drivel...

Here are the problems with this theology that I count:

1. It divides God into three Gods.
2. It turns God the Father into a monster, satisfied only by the death of His Son.
3. It makes justice a system of payment of debts by blood.
4. It nullifies the commandments of God.
5. It divides religion from life, making repentance and the living of a good life unnecessary.
6. It condemns everyone who, through no fault of their own, is unaware of Christ.
7. It ignores or denies virtually everything Jesus said about salvation.

Have I missed anything?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


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Tubbs

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This has been really interesting to read and actually throws up some fairly pointed qestions:

Can great questions of faith – such as the faith & works debate – be reduced to simple A B or C please tick here type answers? Is there are right or wrong answer to such questions?

IMHO, the answer to that is

quote:
If God intended us to pickle our brains and put them aside, if he hadn’t wanted us to struggle with the great issues of human history and culture, then he wouldn’t have sent us a Middle Eastern book spanning many centuries and cultures – he’d have sent us a small tract. John Smith – Australian bloke with a BIG bike

Tubbs

--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am


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TC
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quote:
Agreed,and God is fair and just al those who do not reach accountability go to heaven.

Jim, can you please, please, please explain to me what you mean by your statement above as I am baffled.

TC...

--------------------
'Perhaps the dream is dreaming us ... ' Sting, Soul Cages


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David
Complete Bastard
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So Jim,

Tell me. Am I saved?

Yes or no.


(BTW, Stop wishing yourself "All the Best" at the end of every post."


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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly:
I do not agree with your statement Freddy about the commandments not being an all or nothing deal. The Bible states that if a person breaks any point of the law, he/she has broken all of the law.

Whosoever shall break the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whosoever doeth and teacheth them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens (Matt. 5:19).

So you are saying that because of Christ it is OK to break them, and to teach that this is the way of salvation?

Jesus' meaning is that a person who believes that it is not wrong to steal and sets about a life of crime, breaks not only the commandment about stealing but others as well, because they are all connected together. Conversely, a person seeking to turn away from one evil is also turning away from them all - because all good things are connected as well.

No one can do good or turn away from evil by their own power. All power is in God. But He gives you that power insofar as you seek it from Him.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


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Pete
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I have a horrible sense of deja vu concerning this thread...however...

Jim, I am in all likelihood much closer to you in terms of doctrine than a lot of our fellow believerswriting on these boards. You need to understand that in terms of what I am going to say so that you do not casually write me off as one of the liberals you rate so poorly.

The issues of salvation are INEXTRICABLY interlinked, as other writers in this thread have pointed out. If you have believed in the atoning work of Jesus and repented it must inevitably follow that the believer will bring forth "works" in accordance with repentance. To make "faith" alone the marker for judgement of someone's status is questionable. If there is no evidence of a changed life I think it is reasonable to have some doubts about the authenticity of their repentance and the nature of their faith. Faith is not just mental assent to the truth of some doctrine. The truth has to outwork into real life.

Having said that I would suggest we are on dodgy ground if we feel we are very sure about who is "in" and who is "out" on the basis of our own assessment. The parable of the sower may suggest that at various periods someone may bear fruit but not continue (I accept this could be viewed as distinct from "salvation").

Jesus' illustrations of wheat and tares growing together similarly suggests the difficulty of separating the two until the end of the age, as does the parable of the dragnet and the sorting of fish. As cited elsewhere, the parable of the sheep and goats should give us pause for thought. I am VERY reluctant to put myself in the place of making absolute assessments about someone's ultimate salvation - because God sees and I don't.

I have known people who seem to have an initial burst of enthusiasm and appear to "bear fruit" but fall away and end up vehemently opposed to God until they die. I have equally known people who appear to fall away and live very "unrepentant" lifestyles for long periods but who return to God at a later stage.

It would be relatively easy to make a superficial judgement about these people based on outward apprearances - but I have little confidence that I would be making a right one. And frankly, it's none of my business. I readily acknowlegdge the fact that I am myself a sinner who has fallen on the mercy and grace of God and know how loving, patient, long-suffering and unreasonably generous He is to me - so I would seek to extend the same amount of grace to other people around me.
Whether I think they are "saved" or not, wheher they share the same doctrine with me or not. We are all people with a tendency to goof up and understand partially, and we are ALL in need of the grace of God.

Especially when we think we've got all the answers.

Jim, I strongly urge you to question whether your reason for posting on these boards is because you are motivated by love for the people with whom you can clearly see you disagree doctrinally - that you love people because GOD loves people - or because you want to hammer a bunch of (as you might see them) woofty liberal heretics for their errors.

If all you are concerned about is "the truth" of scripture as you understand it you will conduct yourself in the spirit of the pharisee who exalts correctness in doctrine above love for God and people. Believe me I know, because I've been guilty of exactly this myself. I have in the past used my theological "correctness" as a weapon with which to destroy people, belittle their standing with God, to cast judgement and promote division. I did not love or care about the people on the end of my judgements, they were just "wrong" and needed to be corrected. What arrogance and shallowness of soul!

I am so thankful that John describes Jesus as full of grace and truth, not just full of truth. Truth alone will only kill people. It requires grace to handle truth in a way which is able to encourage, teach, correct and promote the genuine well-being of another person.

"Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. the man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know."

I may be guilty of ascribing wrong motivations to you in the way you are using these boards Jim. If that is so then I apologise - however, it does appear that you are really just trying to draw people out so you can then prove that they are wrong, and you seem to do so with little humility or love for the people concerned.

If correct understanding of what the Bible means and purity of doctrine were essential for us to attain salvation there is not one person in human history apart from Jesus who would be "in" - so don't behave as though it is only those who agree with you who are correct. If you approached discussion with a little humility you might learn some serious lessons in discipleship from some of these "liberals", even if aspects of their doctrine outrage you.

I am serious!

I guarantee that some of the people with whom you disagree will be far advanced in their love of God and service for His Kingdom in comparison to many solid evangelical "bible believing " Christians.
The church together displays the manifold wisdom of God, and no one facet of the church has a monopoly on truth, understanding or discipleship. This is not to say that truth is unimportant, but that most of us are not as right as we think we are.

God loves the world and the sinful, messed up people in it. He loves the church with the sinful messed up people in it. The bottom line is God LOVES PEOPLE, and he LIKES hanging around with sinners. If I imagine I will advance the Kingdom if I don't love people, then I doubt much of any value is ever going to happen through what I do.

--------------------
A dog's not just for Christmas
There's plenty left on Boxing Day


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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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*applauds*
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Tony
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Brilliantly said, Pete!

Tony


Posts: 32 | From: England | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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Pete,

that's one of the best things I've seen posted on these boards in a long time. Spot on.

Alan

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.


Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Manx Taffy
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I too would like to thank Pete for putting things so well (I was going to say in a nutshell - but it would have to be a very big coconut shell )

I found this site a while ago and was so pleased to find a broad Christian site where really matters of faith are discussed so openly and intelligently. It has really made me think more deeply about some of my own views and I have particularly enjoyed getting a deeper understanding of the thoughtful views of people from different wings of the church to myself.

I hope we manage to keep-up this approach and does not degenerate into pointless arguement from people in various camps who have no intention of listening to and reflecting on the thoughts of fellow travellers on the journey.


Posts: 397 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jim Powell

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Pete.
If someone tells me that they have believed in Christ as the only way of salvation,then I accept that they are telling me the truth.

If someone tells me that they reject believing in Christ then I assume that they are not saved.

As for people asking me who is saved,my answer is I dont have a clue,this is something everyone decides for themselves.

I cant guess what decisions people make,I will not attempt to guess what people think.After if they dont know for themselves what they think how can I know?

Can we judge by behaviour who is a Christian or not? I dont see how!

Ephesians2:8and 9 makes it clear to me .

Good question about my motive,I ask that question of myself.
Answer if I could encourage just one Christian to know and love God better then my time will be well spent.
If there happened to be just one unbeliever who realised that he needed Christ that would wonderful.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)


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Jim Powell

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David,ManxTaffy.
Check 1John3:23 and decide for yourself,answer to yourself whether you are saved. No point in asking me what you think as I dont have a clue.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Good question about my motive,I ask that question of myself.
Answer if I could encourage just one Christian to know and love God better then my time will be well spent.
If there happened to be just one unbeliever who realised that he needed Christ that would wonderful.
All the best Jim.

Sounds like a crusade to me.

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jim Powell

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TC,
All those people who do not reach accountability(that is they die before they can understand the gospel)Go straight to. Heaven. As with Davids baby that died,David said "I shall see him again"
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Will
Shipmate
# 356

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I feel Jim has been disingenuous with this thread - not honest at all.
I also like how I was counted out of the deal in one sentence.

Jim,
I will not reply to any more of your threads. You are intellectually dishonest.

--------------------
Shalom, Will.


Posts: 60 | From: Tx. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jim Powell

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# 323

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Barbara,
Salvation is just faith in Christ.The object of our faith has all the merit the Lord Jesus Christ.
Faith is a system of perception that has no merit,if faith had merit then it would be works,which God cant accept from sinful man.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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Kelly

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# 577

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Freddy,

I do not recall posting Mat. 5:19 as a reference to my statement about the law being an all or nothing deal. As a matter of fact, I know for certain that I didn't use that passage for a basis of my debate.

The passage that sustains my position about the law being all or nothing is found in James 2:10...For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all.

That is a pretty clear statment in James.

Freddy, if you want to debate, that's fine. But don't put words in my mouth that I never uttered then go to great lengths to prove me wrong. You are the one who posted the scripture in Mat. 5:19, not me. If you want to debate with yourself, go ahead, because that is what you did.


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Jim Powell

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# 323

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Rewboss.
John3:15 that whoever believes may in him have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,that whoever believes in him should not perish,but have eternal life.
17.For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,but that the world should be saved through him.
18.He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already ,because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1John3:21 Beloved if our heart does not condemn us we have confidence before God.
22, and whatever we ask we receive from him,because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his eyes.
23, And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,just as he commanded us.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)


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SteveTom
Contributing Editor
# 23

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That's the way, Jim Powell! You just keep going, and ignore what anyone says!
Don't let some fainthearted liberal lure you into humility and graciousness. It's a trap. All that matters is preaching the one true version of the gospel, yours.
Keep on crusading! What does the purpose and spirit of this board matter when you're on a mission from God?
I know I'm the only one who pays any attention to the light you shine into our lives, because the rest of these fools are so hung up on having two-way discussion and being spoken to like adults. But don't stop. If you weren't here for us men and for our salvation, this place would just descend back into the morass of so-called "intelligent debate" and "learning from each other" it was before you dwelt amongst us.

--------------------
I saw a naked picture of me on the internet
Wearing Jesus's new snowshoes.
Well, golly gee.
- Eels

Posts: 1363 | From: London | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly

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# 577

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This forum reminds me of a chicken pen.

We have one chicken named Jim. For some reason, all the other chickens have made their mind up concering Jim's motives, faith, ect. & have decided to peck him to death. What all of the other chickens don't realize is that they are all guilty of the same thing they are accusing Jim of .....being judgemental.

I thought this forum was for debate about Biblical subjects & not attacking specific individuals?

I do agree though, Jim has been somewhat judgemental concerning the salvation of some posters, but not directly. The good thing about it, is that Jim has used Biblical passages to come to his conclusions concerning salvation of others. And ya know what?....we all do that in some form or another, everyday. We all are guilty of seeing how others' beliefs stack up to our own.

If Jim is trying to set himself up as the judge, jury & executioner, then he should be set straight, but I don't take him that way.

Thank you,
Kelly


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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Pete. If someone tells me that they have believed in Christ as the only way of salvation,then I accept that they are telling me the truth.

I am happy to know, then, that I am saved. I absolutely believe in Christ as the only way of salvation.

But I don't think that I see it the way Jim does. His theology, I believe, does not originate in Christ or Paul, but in St. Anselm.

Christ is the only way of salvation because unless people live as He taught they cannot be saved.
Christ is the only way of salvation because if God had not descended and taken on a human form as the Christ, to defeat the power of hell, no one could have been saved.
Christ is the only way of salvation because if He had not come to teach the way of salvation directly from God, then no one could be saved.

This is the salvation that Christ brought, and this is what is meant by the grace of God that is the source of all salvation. Our own efforts amount to nothing - it is all through God's grace, which gives us the strength to believe in Him and do as He teaches.

But if we do not do as He teaches we are not saved.

I think that this is a more biblically based understanding than the idea of salvation by faith alone.

So what are the shortcomings of this approach?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jim Powell

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# 323

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Steve Tom,
We all have opinions based on something dont we.
You are saying if our opinions are based on our own thinking,rather than on the bible thats fine.
But if I admit my opinions are based on the word of God then I am a crusader.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)

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SteveWal
Shipmate
# 307

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All this thinking for yourself, Jim, it's scary isn't it? Much better to just sit in the pew and absorb what your betters think, because, well, free thought could lead to anything.

Personally, I wouldn't do it if I were you. I'd stay in your holy huddle with the rest of the righteous, safe and warm in the arms of certainty. After all, the real world's a dangerous place. People keep having opinions of their own, disagreeing with your interpretation. Can't have that.

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If they give you lined paper to write on, write across the lines. (Russian anarchist saying)


Posts: 208 | From: Manchester | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jim Powell

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# 323

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Freddy.
If we have to behave in a certain way to be saved in addition to faith in Christ then we are adding to the completed work of the cross. This would be faith plus!
And we are saying in effect that the work of the cross was not sufficient.
The lord said after being judged for the sins of the whole world"It is finished"

If the work of our salvation was finished 2000 years ago then thankfully we dont need to add anything to this completed work.

When we add to the work of the cross we are saying that the cross was not sufficient for our salvation,which means we have not trusted in Christs work for our salvation.
All the best Jim.

--------------------
After being judged for our sins,Our Lord said"It is finished"
(The work of our salvation)


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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Jim Powell...

You have been warned, more than once, to cut it with the crusading. Changing your method doesn't change your purpose, and to be honest I'm more than a bit irritated that you think we are too stupid to realize this. I told you that these people are not conversion fodder, and I meant it. You told me (and the board) that you knew you didn't fit in here, that you'd never accept this "liberal garbage", that you're not here to learn, and yet you've stayed. I've tolerated it up 'til now, because you seemed to back away from your hard-line stance. Watching your non-interactions on this thread, however, leads me to believe that I was right in the beginning.

I really don't like it when people screw with the board like this. I dislike it even more when I've given people leeway (against my better judgment) and they take advantage of it.

Go find another group of heathens to save. You're done with this one.

Erin

--------------------
Commandment number one: shut the hell up.


Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly

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# 577

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Freddy,

The shortcomings of your approach is that it is contradictory.

You stated in one breath that all is grace & that our efforts amount to nothing. In the next breath you said if we didn't *do* as Christ teaches that we aren't saved.

Can you not see the contradiction you made?

Salvation is either all grace or not. Grace is a gift. If we are expected to *do* something to earn grace, then it is no longer a gift.

I go to work to *do* something to *earn* money. But at christmas or birthdays, I don't work for the gifts my friends & family give to me, they are simply gifts.


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BarbaraG
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# 399

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The problem as I see it is that the Bible contains elements of both "Salvation by Faith" and "Salvation by Works". I can quote you plenty of verses that, taken alone, would support either view.

To take the Bible seriously - as many people here want to do - we need to find an understanding that embraces both poles.... because THEY ARE BOTH THERE IN THE BIBLE!!!

So I fall back on saying that it's grace. I trust Jesus, when he said that all who believe in him will be saved. I take him seriously when he talked about the sheep and the goats... and from day to day I do my best to follow him, trusting that his grace is sufficient to compensate for my failures.

And I get riled when people bang on about EITHER faith alone, OR works alone, because it seems to me that neither tells the whole story, and I'm waiting to hear from somebody who can. Until then, it's a mystery I just live with.

BarbaraG

--------------------
still trying to make sense of the world


Posts: 143 | From: Nottinghamshire | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Those interested may see the thread in The Styx explaining why we have terminated Jim Powell's account.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly:
Freddy, You stated in one breath that all is grace & that our efforts amount to nothing. In the next breath you said if we didn't *do* as Christ teaches that we aren't saved. Can you not see the contradiction you made?

Yes, I see that this is a contradiction. I just think that it is a contradiction that everyone lives with all the time.

Even if you acknowledge that all good comes from God, as well as all effort, and even life itself, it still FEELS as if it is your effort, your good, and your life. It's a contradiction, but how do you get away from it?

If you are saved, and if good works flow naturally from salvation, does that mean that no effort whatsoever is required to get you out of bed and put on a smiley face for your job? No, it still takes effort - but the power is from God.

On the other hand, once you become accustomed to a life of kindness and love for others, and to refraining from anger, lust, pride, etc. it becomes easier and easier. That is what it is to be born again.

I recognize the contradiction. So how do you explain the fact that it still feels like effort, even after you have accepted Jesus?

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by BarbaraG:
And I get riled when people bang on about EITHER faith alone, OR works alone, because it seems to me that neither tells the whole story, and I'm waiting to hear from somebody who can.

I'm with you there.

The Bible definitely preaches both, by my reading.

The way I reconcile it is in two ways. Partly it is to think that when the Bible speaks of faith it is speaking about a genuine belief of the mind and heart that includes a willingness to obey God. The other part is to recognize that God has all power, so of course our own efforts are in vain - and it is only by trusting in Him that we can change.

So we are saved by trusting in God as He has shown Himself to us in Jesus, and by doing as He teaches us. You can't separate the two.

That has helped me, but I admit that it is hard to keep it all straight and I may not have it right.

What I am sure of is that the solution is in God's Word.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg


Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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